What makes a new song a folk song?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 14 - 07:13 AM

" please stop talking to me like i'm sort of heathen"
Not my intention Al - in spite of the fact that I find statements like "your stuff is music that used to be folk music, before the folks got pissed off with it" bothe offensive and Attila the Hun-ish
I'm not surprised you get shit from traddies like Paul Downes I'd be happy to support him if it were practical.
You don't like shit, stop dishing it out - heat - kitchen and all that - goes for politeness too!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Sep 14 - 06:49 AM

firstly this an interesting discussion but the thread has got too long - mycomputer takes ages to load it - could the moderators help us to continue it on a new thread please?

secondly - please stop talking to me like i'm sort of heathen. i have made it clear that i have spent the last fifty years passionately interested in folk music. i am not a mental defective because i don't agree with you, Jim.

I understand you position - i think. i am willing to be corrected on this point. politeness costs nowt.

i get so much shit from traddies. every time i see Paul Downes, he goes on about me singing 'in an American accent'. Bollocks! My mum sang in American accent. Ian Cambell's Dad did. His idol was Al Jolson. God knows what my Mum's singing mentor was but I can see her now when I was a kid singing as she did the chores Slowboat to China. Martin Carthy has his family traditions. I have mine - and they go all the way back to my parents. which I bet is more than he can say.

Itry to deal with the world as is. And I want people to sing and dance to my music as naturally as they breathe air. When I write a funny song. I want them to laugh because its funny - not because its 'funny song' like some bloody ossified joke from Shakespeare, that some bloody twat behind you at Stratford laughs very loud at because he wants to tell the world that he's been clever enough to recognise a joke! Think Bread and Cheese, the Molecatcher......

And Dick, I love the fact that you squeezebox boys have so much dedication that you spend thousands on instruments! I once asked Keith Kendrick about his two machines. One was an anglo - he'd spent about eight grand on that. he looked at the other one suspiciously and said , well that one WAS expensive.......

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 14 - 04:29 AM

I deliberately didn't mention the organisation - many of its members, particularly its teachers, make an invaluable contribution to Irish music and continue to produce fine musicians.
In Clare, the influence of the competitions is negligible, which has, in my opinion, been a contributory factor to the success the County has achieved.
"as usual Jim speaks half truths and exaggerates"
As usual, the stupidly aggressive manner in which you insist on making your postings tends to negate anything of value you might have to say.
Once again - back off with your vendetta.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Sep 14 - 04:03 AM

"Ireland has now risen above all that, though there is one organisation which persists in making it their raison d'etre, happily, their influence appears to be very much on the wane".
no, they are not on the feckin wane, not round here anyway, because they have political friends in high places, they get loads of money, and they still are turning out homeogeonised competent players many of whom have an attitude problem brought about by being encouraged to be competitive.
If you go to northumberland you will see there is still a love for trad music, and the same applies to a lesser extent in east anglia.Iwould agree with you there is less respect in Fngland, BUT THE FOLK CLUB SITUATION, a seperate room where people go specifically to listen is rarer in ireland, the result is this.. in ireland   with rural pubs closing, suitable venues for showing respect for words are disappearing, instrumental irish music is half listened to but the opportunities for listening to songs and showing respect for lyrics is on the decline., too much amplified music that is treated as background sound.
as usual Jim speaks half truths and exaggerates both the decline of english trad music and the health of irish trad song, his analysis of the health of irish trad instrumental music is accurate apart from the remarks about a certain organisation being in decline.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 21 Sep 14 - 03:53 AM

Yeah but England hasn't got tired of learning traditional music. Neither has it got tired of classical music.

What we don't do though is treat it in the same way as France treats language.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 14 - 03:26 AM

"your stuff is music that used to be folk music, before the folks got pissed off with it."
Thanks for that lucid summing up of your understanding of folk music Al - it seems to go for a number of people here.
You have mine.
We spent a glorious week-end staying with Bob and Ella Cann on Dartmoor many years ago, in the company with two of Ireland's finest musicians, piper and concertina player Tom McCarthy and fiddle player Bobby Casey.
Thousands of Ireland's Ireland's young musicians and now coming to traditional music on the basis of their playing.
Toms children and grand-children are playing like veterans, his grandson Padraig won the Gradam National television award last year for musician of the year and the rest of the family are now in their third generation of representatives of Irish culture at its finest.
Happily, Ireland hasn't "got pissed off" with its heritage, I really am sad to learn England has.   
Perhaps we should leave it there before we really fall out. eh?
"I've never been entirely comfortable with the Irish notion of making playing of certain instruments competitive"
We are it total agreement on this one Muskie - competition should never be an incentive for involvement in music - I've seen too many youngsters driven away from music be not winning 'the glittering' prizes.
Ireland has now risen above all that, though there is one organisation which persists in making it their raison d'etre, happily, their influence appears to be very much on the wane.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 10:59 PM

I suppose I knew about trad folk almost from the off. my sister was at college at the same time as Tony Rose - i think he was at the mens college in exeter she was at the ladies college in Exmouth. there were loads of great traddy singers around Devon in those days - Paul Snow, Ken Penny, and of course the Yetties. there was Bob Cann.

and there were some pretty good trad singers who toured Anne Briggs, Johnny Handle, Cyril Tawney.
this was about 1964, and i was fifteen. i think it was a year later i saw the young tradition and the Watersons, and Fred Jordan - it was a sort of folk package tour - like the old rock and roll show. top of the bill was Bert Jansch.

i am not ignorant of traditional music's many virtues. its just that when you meet with ordinary English folk - like i did tonight at a pub gig. you must communicate or die. music they will dance to. music, they will sing to. music that entertains and amuses them. folk music. music for folks. your stuff is music that used to be folk music, before the folks got pissed off with it.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 07:09 PM

I've never been entirely comfortable with the Irish notion of making playing of certain instruments competitive. I took exams in violin, I certainly didn't "beat" other students.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 04:46 PM

"Lack of author or age of song do not make a genre. Musical style does"
Style does not - origins and process does.

OED defines genre thus Jim
'A style or category of art, music, or literature:'

I still think you're wrong on this one, my view is that origins and process makes the tradition, and the musical 'style' or 'form' is what evolves from that tradition. I know we are going to disagree on this one ;) but if you accept 'folk' as a genre, as we have to with the common understanding in today's society, then we are back to it being perfectly possible for a new song (or tune) that fits that style or form to be a folk song or tune.

John

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 04:13 PM

"Lack of author or age of song do not make a genre. Musical style does"
Style does not - origins and process does.
'folk' refers to the culture of a specific group
"exclusion of many excellent contemporary songs"
Copyright laws exclude many of them from belonging to the folk - whether they are excellent or crap.
Lst night a crowd of us watched a nearly ninety-year-old piper/singer/fluteplayer being interviewed.
He was well respected as a musician by his peers, was a part of the London Irish music scene in ts heyday, had performed with two of Ireland's leading ceili bands and was a long-term competition winner, having once been beaten into second place by one of Irland's greatest traditional pipers, Felix Doran.
He said he was extremely proud to see thousands of young musicians ener the scene, take up the music and become top class at it in a short time - far better than he could ever have hoped to be, even though he and many others of his generation might not like or approve of where they are taking the music.
We took that to be an indication that all is well with traditional music in Ireland today
All very satisfying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 04:02 PM

"Personally I'd like to see the evidence for the provenance of some of them. I don't actually give a 💩 but there is so much staked on reverence here it is beginning to look like a religion."

Not sure who is deifying Prof Child around here. His work commands huge respect, but his modus operandi and his specific selections are hotly debated to this day.

However the provenance of his sources is pretty sound - the Percy manuscript is in the British Library, and lots of the broadsides are easily available. Steve G will tell you that Walter Scott and others doctored their raw material, but we do know that a lot of the Child canon went back to the 18th century, and plenty to the 17th. There's no great argument there.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 03:35 PM

Credibility and saying Phil Lynott was part of the establishment aren't good bed fellows.

I doubt anybody with any rational thought process would describe folk as a form of music that sits outside copyright. Lack of author or age of song do not make a genre. Musical style does. Perpetuating traditional songs is good and many are worth keeping but not to the exclusion of many excellent contemporary songs, written almost exclusively since 1954,

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 03:28 PM

"for gods sake check your facts."
I damn well know the situatio with pubs - we walked our feet off looking for premises long enough to have been made aware of "the facts"
Time and again we were told that publicans with unused rooms couldn't be arsed having music because of the potential expense, or offering us rooms for exorbitant rents "to cover the costs".
Even when we ran Singers workshop we had trouble finding venues.
We got a perfect room in Fulham once, only to have the publican change his mind when he heard music was involved - "don't want those P.R.S. bastards in".
One sympathetic publican offered us the use of his room for a club once on the understanding that we didn't advertise.
There was actually a crisis in the revival at one time when the P.R.S. first made folk clubs subject to their tax - it was covered in Folk Review.
If you made your points less belligerently you wouldn't appear as stupid as you do when you are shown wrong - and these discussions wouldn't be pissing contests you people insist on making them.
"I put a lot of work into that post and you just brush it aside"
I don't brush it aside - I respond to them as I believe them to be - well covered inaccuracies.
"I have never experienced this and you have provided no evidence that it happens."
Yes I have - this argument with its "bob geldof songs are folk songs" and other such arguments are indications that this is what i will find at many folk clubs - silence and support for such statements show the position is accepted, as do ads for hip-hop, 1950s pop jazz..... as part of 'folk evenings.
Many clips put up i this and other arguments give me a chance on what I have been missing.
"So what did he think of "newly composed songs written using folk forms""
He actually sang some of them, in his inimitable style, on the films like 'The Irishmen' and on the radio ballads - that's how close they were to the traditional forms.
MacColl's best songs were not only based on folk forms, but the texts were often taken from actuality of singers and speakers like Sam larner (Shoals of Herring) or Ben Bright (Shellback) or Jack Hamilton (Just a Note) or a whole gang of Travellers or (Freeborn man and Thirty Foot Trailer) or a group of Scots Border farmers (Tenant farmer)
Joe admired the songs, though he never compared them with his own (unlike some folkies).
"For the umpteenth time of asking, can you tell me what is the "fairly solid definition" of "newly composed songs written using folk forms"
For the umpteenth time, you've been given examples of some, just thrown in a few more, with another reason why they are what they are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 03:22 PM

"what the artists in folk clubs do with mick jaggers music turns it back into folk music."

Not sure I can agree with that Al, my view is that you could dance ballroom wearing morris kit, but it would not make it morris. An acoustic version of a pop or rock song does not become 'folk' just because it is performed in a folk club. I am, as you will have seen from previous posts, quite comfortable with a new song being 'folk', but on the basis that 'folk music' is the musical tradition of a country or area, then that new song must in my view, show a respect for, and an influence from that tradition.

For example, the Bad Shepherds performing punk songs in a folk 'style' and with folk instruments does not make those songs folk. I'm comfortable to say they are punk songs performed in a 'folk style', which I believe is the way Ade Edmondson describes them. Although something like 'up the Junction' perhaps could fit as a narrative ballad. (That's not to say by the way, that I don't like The Bad Shepherds, and I've been lucky enough to appear on the same bill on a couple of occasions and love what they do) 'Whisky in the Jar' on the other hand, remains a folk song even when rocked up by Thin Lizzy.

John

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 01:07 PM

I think Al is trying to make the point,[please correct me if i am wrong] that if music is home made music that can be performed acoustically or on non expensive instruments or unaccompanied then it is the peoples music,imo there is some truth in this argument, but imo that does not mean that playing the same music on an expensive concertina means that it is not folk music, but to paraphrase mandy rice davies, i would say that wouldnt i.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 12:41 PM

Jim, re Child, you are correct. He was Professor of Literature at Harvard where he worked extremely hard. Almost all of his spare time was spent on his family, his beloved rose garden and researching and editing the ballads. The sophisticated circles he moved in would have excluded any knowledge of ballads being sung in the community around him. Towards the end of his life he came into contact with people who sent him ballads taken down in America and these he included in his appendixes. The vast bulk of the versions he edited were sent from Britain by correspondents, and the majority of these came from manuscripts and published works.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 12:25 PM

"what the artists in folk clubs do with mick jaggers music turns it back into folk music."

I think this - along with Al's earlier comment about guitarists seeing things differently - is the crux of the question. And I used to agree (not with the bit about guitars, though). When I first got into singing at folk clubs, I thought this was precisely what was so good about them - you could bring along absolutely anything you liked, from the Stones to Dylan to Cyril Tawney to Richard Thompson to Peter Blegvad to your own stuff, and it all went into the same pot. (Somebody did "Angels" one night. Another night somebody did "La vie en rose". Come one, come all.) So that's one definition of 'folk' - perhaps not folk music or folk song, but certainly The Folk Experience. For a while I was really into it; I wrote a bunch of songs and everything.

Then I went to a traditional singaround and heard one amazing song after another, with stunning chorus singing from 15-20 complete amateurs all of whom (unlike me) knew every single song. And that gave me another definition of 'folk' - all the amazing traditional songs that The Folk Experience never lets you hear. I've been looking for that kind of folk ever since.

I'm not a purist - I sing whatever I want to sing, including new songs. But I found the motherlode six and a half years ago - in the second chorus of Ranzo - and I don't think I'll ever stop going back to it.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 12:11 PM

If you don't mind him misrepresenting what you said that's up to you.

For what it's worth, when I referred back to what I took to be Jim's position I made sure I was using his actual words. But I've got no quarrel with you, Bryan; if you've got a quarrel with Jim, please leave me out of it.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 11:22 AM

yes and the collection agencies have rules no one understands or can get a handle on. how much, and where the public use a song is one thing - how the music industry works is quite another.

most of the folk music is broadcast on the net or on stations that don't pay prs charges.
it is what it has always been - a subversive and non establishment voice. how many folksongs are on the side of the bosses?

i think that is what is so bloody exasperating about traddies cosying up to the respectable academics, and the dreaded middle classes and their arts council grants, and arts centres, general arty fartininess- government sponsored this that and the other.

Bugger them, they're the creative kiss of death.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 09:56 AM

"many clubs have to pay P.R.S. and I.M.R.O taxes to sing public domain folk songs just in case they sing copyrighted songs during the evening"
incorrect again., its the pub owner who pays imro or prs licence, jim for gods sake check your facts.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 08:56 AM

Jim Carroll
The posting you refer to is a mish-mash of distortion and misrepresentation of what I have said.
Who's doing hit-and-run now? I put a lot of work into that post and you just brush it aside. I quoted you verbatim and then gave my comments. How could I possibly be distorting or misrepresenting you?

Regarding the particular point I am referring to - you deny it happens in clubs - misrepresentation
No I don't. I said "I have never experienced this and you have provided no evidence that it happens.". (Am I really having to quote myself to make a point?)

this is what is being argued for here.
No it isn't. Nobody is saying that at all. Only you have raised this spectre with a little support from your friend Teribus who complains that that is what is happening.. Musket and Big Al and Bounty Hound want to sing their own songs and either call them folk or be told what they are allowed to call them. Musket thinks the clubs are full of retired teachers from Harpenden with a finger in their ear singing cowboy songs with books as aids accompanying themselves on expensive guitars. Big Al thinks they're run by tyrannical traddies who won't let him sing his songs.

If Phil wants clarification of anything, he is quite capable for asking for it himself - don't involve other contributions - make your own points - hit-and-run again
If you don't mind him misrepresenting what you said that's up to you.

That Joe knew (and cared) what a folk song was - sadly missing in these clubs you claim don't exist.
So what did he think of "newly composed songs written using folk forms"? Since these clubs you talk about are totally outside my experience, I'll have to take your word for it. I really don't have any opinion about them at all. If what goes on at a particular folk club is not to my taste there is nothing I can do about it except (as I have said several times) not go. In the meantime, you continue to deny the existence of clubs that I do have direct experience of.

Now, for the umpteenth time of asking, can you tell me what is the "fairly solid definition" of "newly composed songs written using folk forms"?

(I'd still like to know about the folk clubs putting on heavy metal.)

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 08:24 AM

"what the artists in folk clubs do with mick jaggers music turns it back into folk music."
How - they still remain Mick Jagger's - 'the Folk', however far you care to stretch the phrase, didn't make it, didn't make it their own, din't re-make it and proliferate it in order to lake it part of their culture.
It remains Mick Jagger's property - not ours.
It is no more a folk song than is an aria from Aida sung by a Welsh Miner's choir (plenty of examples of these)
There are too many laws restricting the use of composed music to ever claim squatter's rights, and if that were not the case, the clubs have never attracted enough of the general public to even try.
many clubs have to pay P.R.S. and I.M.R.O taxes to sing public domain folk songs just in case they sing copyrighted songs during the evening.
That is just a tiny tip of the iceberg of damage done to the club scene.
"The answer was Phil Lynott. I suppose that is the folk progression."
No, it's another part of the iceberg - a folk song, made and used by working people for a century or so, being credited to someone from the establishment music factory - you couldn't have made my point better!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 07:48 AM

Not to mention Thin Lizzy's Whisky in the Jar or Led Zeppelin's Gallows Pole.

My eldest said recently that in a pub quiz recently they asked who wrote "Whisky in the Jar.". The answer was Phil Lynott. I suppose that is the folk progression. A mate in Dublin swore blind McGowan wrote Dirty old Town.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 07:46 AM

you don't get the distinction jim.

what mick jagger does with the blues is not folk music.

what the artists in folk clubs do with mick jaggers music turns it back into folk music.

they are not working to blue print or the dots written down. the legal position is quite irrelevant. you could probably find a tune similar to most pop songs. where there's a hit -theres a writ -as the saying goes. but that's not the point in question.

does dave burland still segue rocking the cradle that's none of my ain/segue into my baby used to stay out all night long?
its when we take ownership and inhabit the song, squatters rights if you like, that's when it becomes folk music.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 04:34 AM

"Folk songs have been created and proliferated by working people down the ages as entertainment and as ways of setting down experiences and emotions; they are an essential part of our cultural and social history."
   a half truth, they have been created by people whether they were working or of any class[ including in a few cases[Burns,MacColl] middle class,[ henry the eighth and green sleeves upper class]
They do not appear to be essential to the vast majority of the population, IN FACT THEY APPEAR TO BE AN IRRELEVANCE.
most of the population would find it hard to name a folk song apart from perhaps the wild rover.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 04:31 AM

17 Sep 14 - 10:50 AM
The posting you refer to is a mish-mash of distortion and misrepresentation of what I have said.
Regarding the particular point I am referring to - you deny it happens in clubs - this is what is being argued for here.
"Perhaps you could explain that to Phil"
If Phil wants clarification of anything, he is quite capable for asking for it himself - don't involve other contributions - make your own points - hit-and-run again
"Yes? And your point is?"
That Joe knew (and cared) what a folk song was - sadly missing in these clubs you claim don't exist.
"Yes he did."
No he didn't - Child took his ballads from manuscripts and published collections.
Steve can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the nearest he ever got to hearing a ballad sung is when he heard a servant singing 'The Cruel Mother'
The "gullible" pioneer collectors did miss and ignore some material - people breaking new ground tend to miss bits.
But their efforts gave us a massive body of songs to sing, your contempt stands to lose that treasure trove and replace it with stuff that we can't hope to ever call ours - try telling Bob Geldof's lawyer 'I Don't Like Mondays' is a folk song in the public domain and wait to see which court he takes you to.
"I'd be interested to hear the evidence for that."
Me too - that really would open up a new field of study.
"I think some your problem with seeing like the rest of us "
Could do without the psychoanalysis Al, I'm well aware of the use some pop groups, like made of the blues, 'The Stones', made a particular point of it.
I'm also aware of the use composers like Vaughan Williams and Grainger made of folk song.
I'm also aware that none of the people who did so ever attempted to claim their own compositions as being 'folk'
If I wished to hear what they did with it, I'd go to a pop venue or an orchestral concert - not a folk club.
"no one has formalised all this stuff. "
The folk club scene did at one time - Bryan claims that they still do - go and tell him he's wrong.
Spent a great night last night realising why it was all worth it - will probably get a repeat performance tonight and tomorrow - might have to rest up on Monday and Tuesday, but back to the regular session on Wednesday night.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 03:26 AM

Personally I'd like to see the evidence for the provenance of some of them. I don't actually give a 💩 but there is so much staked on reverence here it is beginning to look like a religion.

Al makes a good point re guitar and I would add that even they seem to be going through the purist mill. I have been told more than once that my carbon fibre guitar has no place in traditional music. Presumably the twats who thought it clever to say it to me would differentiate between playing English folk on a Martin vs an American song on a Fylde. "I would like to sing an Irish song but I can't afford a Lowden." you'd still get someone saying they are only good for Ulster songs.

One of said twats doesn't talk to me now. Probably couldn't distinguish between their insult and my reply with knobs on.

😇

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 08:13 PM

Jim Carroll
Yeah - sure Bryan - hit-and-run, as usual.
I had two possible ways of responding to your cry of injured innocence. If I had followed my first instinct, the mods would probably have deleted my post. I decided mild ridicule was safer.

Any word on whether you approve of Buddy Holly hits at folk clubs - cant remember whether this is the third or forth time of trying!
I refer the Honourable Gentleman to my posting of 17 Sep 14 - 10:50 AM

Style is not a part of definition, just a recognisable feature
Perhaps you could explain that to Phil.

Joe Heaney was once sat down and played a mixture of various, non-English language...
Yes? And your point is?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 05:48 PM

On reflection Jim - I think some your problem with seeing like the rest of us might lie with the fact that you never stuck with learning the guitar.

you see to us, the relationship between all these different kinds of music is so obvious

fred jordan - martin carthy - broonzy - lightnin hopkins - status quo

those swooping notes you hear in irish fiddle playing -so very similar to the way lightning hopkins slides his fingers down the low strings.

no one has formalised all this stuff. its just all there. everytime you pick the guitar up. and we call it folk music. we're all drinking from the same cup.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 05:40 PM

"You don't have to be sat with an old codger with a tape deck in order to collect."

That's what we need: a Mudcat debate on the meaning of 'collect'.

"60 years takes you from him to many of the songs.
Possibly far less considering how many "traditional" songs are far younger than the gullible collectors thought."

I'd be interested to hear the evidence for that.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 05:36 PM

Steve G: I see nothing wrong in using qualifiers like 'traditional', 'contemporary'.

The passage of time makes a difference, though - or rather, at this stage, the passage of time has made a difference. As Bryan pointed out, people have been writing things that they liked to call folk songs for quite some time. I know people who have a contemporary repertoire of songs by Graeme Miles and Martin Graebe, and a traditional repertoire of songs by Cyril Tawney and Sidney Carter. (Songs using traditional forms? Some of them, definitely; that includes some of the contemporary songs. But mostly they're just "folk club songs": songs that everyone knows because they've been taken up in folk clubs over the years.) There's a difference between the "open mic" type of event, where you'll hear English traditional songs 5-10% of the time, and the "singaround" type, where it's more like 40-50%, but folk clubs dedicated to traditional music... well, I've never seen one.

What do we do about this? Do we even want to do anything about this? There are certainly some things we don't want to do. A while ago I started a 'Sightings of the Folk Police' thread, asking people if they'd ever been asked - or (horrors!) if they'd ever asked somebody else - not to sing something because it wasn't traditional. I think one person had a story that fitted, but just the one - and it was quite a long thread. Nobody (or hardly anybody) actually stands at the door of folk clubs saying you can't come in here and sing that!, and I don't think any of us thinks it would be an improvement if that happened more often.

It's not about definitions; it's about the music, and sharing our enthusiasm for the music. Perhaps ultimately it's just about going to 'folk' venues and singing traditional songs (and songs in traditional forms); if it's good enough, somebody will listen.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 04:39 PM

"now less pendants turn up and try to spoil them"
.,,.

Hurrah! Hanging was too good for them...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 04:14 PM

This is going to look like a complete reversal of my earlier stance.
First of all there is nothing wrong with the Sao Paulo definition of 1954. It is very precise and clear and whether you agree with it or not, at the time it was a widely accepted definition by anyone who was taking the music seriously. It largely followed the descriptions Sharp had made in 'Some Conclusions' but making the boundaries clearer.

The wider uses of 'folk song' are of course, like other genres not definable, but they can easily be described. I see nothing wrong in using qualifiers like 'traditional', 'contemporary'. These are words that have been used on the folk scene throughout the second revival in the British Isles, and are easily understood by the vast majority of us.

Jim objects to recent pop songs being sung in folk clubs. I think I would too if I went to a folk event and found that the majority of what was sung was pop songs. I can think of one well-known professional who regularly throws in 2 or 3 pop songs from his youth into his act. I put this down to him being true to his own influences.
It has never put me off. He is very entertaining and we all know and can join in with the choruses.

As for electric folk, folk rock, or any similar genres, these have brought many more young people into the music than Fred or Harry or Walter or the Copper Family ever did.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 03:24 PM

Yes he did. You don't have to be sat with an old codger with a tape deck in order to collect.

60 years takes you from him to many of the songs.

Possibly far less considering how many "traditional" songs are far younger than the gullible collectors thought.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 12:45 PM

"Child collected were in his day."
Child didn't collect songs.
None were anything like 60 years young   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 12:29 PM

If someone sings a Buddy Holly song at a folk club, I hope they get a polite round of applause at the end.

That's the thing about music of the people. People like to decide what it is.

Anyway, this thread asks what makes a new song folk, and Buddy Holly songs are much older than many of the songs that Child collected were in his day.

Folk clubs are a broad church, especially now less pendants turn up and try to spoil them. That said, the quality is on a downward trend in many clubs. It isn't so much a talent thing as laziness. More people with songbooks trying them out for the first time having never spent time at home getting familiar with the song. I just feel that's slightly insulting to a listening audience, let alone rummaging through their books whilst others are trying to entertain them.

The folk club discussion is a red herring here. If it fits the style genre, it is folk. It's vintage or authorship is a side issue.

🎼🎶🎶🎶🎶🎸🎸

🌽🌽🌽

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 11:25 AM

Meant to post this yesterday - too busy, and probably wont get round to finishing it so here goes:
"Talk of a 'definition' is meaningless."
Apparently not, to some people anyway Howard – that's why there have been so many of these threads
I have no problem with a definition – I have one that works or me and I'm happy to stand by it, flawed as it may be.
Folk songs have been created and proliferated by working people down the ages as entertainment and as ways of setting down experiences and emotions; they are an essential part of our cultural and social history.
The universality of their themes has enabled them to spread throughout the English/Spanish/Danish.... (whatever) speaking world, be taken up adapted by others – it has also enabled them to be passed on from age to age and serve later generations.
Every single definition has referred to their roots and their being passed on, along with lore and custom.
For me, their long-term importance lies in the fact that they are the creative artifacts of a working people – a social grouping that is largely considered to have no culture of its own.
On a more personal note, my family probably originated in Ireland – they were driven out in the middle of the 19th century by 'The Great Hunger' – there is a huge song repertoire about those times and events – the second largest genre of songs in Ireland, mostly made by those affected.
Those of my family who stayed were part of the resistance to the evictions that took place following the Famine – another large repertoire of songs about those events      
Another large body of songs were created during The Irish War of Independence – another part of my family history – songs of this and the previous type will form an important part to our collection, when it goes up on site next month.
My Grandfather was a merchant seaman who sailed under sail, with a small repertoire of shanties (not enough for him to consider himself a singer) - sea songs make up an extremely important part of our folk repertoire and my family history.
My father was a reluctant navvy – he didn't have any songs, but he had wonderful stories of life on the roads which give me and others a great way into singing songs about navvying.
I have little doubt that there are many others here who can relate to the folk repertoire in the way I find myself able to do, from different parts of the country and different backgrounds – that is the importance of folk song for me – it helps me understand where I come from – it does it for me as a singer and a researcher, I don't know any other artistic form that does that- certainly not pop, or pop based songs.
That's what the folk clubs did for me – take away the intimacy and turn them over to stars with expensive instruments, or shift them to concert venues and festivals, or open them up to marketed pop music and you remove the democracy that the folk revival gave us.   
That's why I'm prepared to argue the toss about what 'folk song' means
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 08:31 AM

"Ya gorra larf."
Yeah - sure Bryan - hit-and-run, as usual.
Any word on whether you approve of Buddy Holly hits at folk clubs - cant remember whether this is the third or forth time of trying!
Style is not a part of definition, just a recognisable feature
Joe Heaney was once sat down and played a mixture of various, non-English language, traditional and non traditional singers from all over the world - he was around 80 to 90% correct in sorting out which was which
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 08:13 AM

Jim Carroll
The only time I get offended is when I am accused of being offensive instead of putting forward an argument - not guilty of that one - ever, I hope.

Ya gorra larf.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 08:09 AM

BH Although of course, Mr Carroll did tell us that folk is not a 'style'

PE Because it isn't. Which is why he used the more precise phrase 'using folk forms'.

JC I went to folk clubs and heard a mixture of old and new songs more or less giving the impression that they were related stylistically

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 08:04 AM

Phil Edwards
but if I complained about turning up to a 'folk' club and not hearing anything that I would describe as folk music, I'd be complaining about the lack of folk music - not about the labelling.

To which the organiser might reply "Well it's what I would describe as folk music and have done since, inspired by Dylan and Guthrie, I started writing songs fifty years ago. If it's not what you want, I suggest you look elsewhere or, better still, start your own club where you can set the rules."

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 04:42 AM

Thanks Jim ;)

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 03:31 AM

"The farming community no longer want to hear these songs"
A strange thing has happened here Steve,
The local interest in song in this area has never really disappeared - what went were the venues to sing.
The rise in popularity in music has prompted a spread of sessions in which singing is welcomed - our local Wednesday night one being the main one - at the others, if you are spotted, you will probably asked for a song, but the Westbridge makes a feature of singing.
The company is a mix of ages and abilities, a balance of Clare people blow-ins like me.
Thirty years ago, if you sang an English song, you would be responded to politely - of late, there has been an apparent rise in the interest of narrative songs (no longer prominent in the Irish repertoire), with people commenting on the stories of the songs, particularly those dealing with the land.
I snag MacColl's 'Tenant Farmer' one night and when I came to the verse about the family being evicted, an elderly farmer standing next to me roared in my ear "the bastards!" - rather have that than a standing ovation any day.
This area has a strong song-making tradition - we've managed to pin-point approaching 100 of them which have been made here since the beginning of the 20th century or a little earlier - all unpublished and virtually all anonymous.
Hopefully, we will draw out more when our collection goes on line.
Tonight, we'll be attending an open evening at out local musical heritage centre - it will feature a octogenarian local piper/whistle player/singer, Michael Falsey, who will be interviewed in front of an audience - the interview will hopefully cover his playing and singing and his experiences as a navvy in London in the 1950s - the golden age of Irish music in England.
This is the first one of such events - another two, with other locals are in the pipeline.
As much as I miss the clubs, the situation that is developing here is the one I find extremely satisfying - and it's been arrived at by people deciding on the roots of the music and building on them.         
was interested to read an interview with an established woman concertina player, Mary MacNamara, on her issuing an album of her playing - it illustrates the intelligent approach that has developed to the music here.
Her statement of taking inspiration from your roots says it all for me.
"make a list of my posts which have offended y"
Don't be daft Al - I'm quite capable of overstepping the mark myself - that's how these arguments go.
The only time I get offended is when I am accused of being offensive instead of putting forward an argument - not guilty of that one - ever, I hope.
One of the few privileges of getting old is you are allowed to be a cranky old git.
Bounty
Off the top of my head, I have a couple of references to 'Fighting Chance' in Palmer's 'Valiant Sailor' and Roy Mackenzie's 'Ballads and Sea Songs of Nova Scotia' - will pass them on with anything else I can find.
Whether I like what you do is immaterial - I wish you and everybody working in music well - it's what stops us all being ants and drones .
Jim Carroll

Note for Note Mary MacNamara
"I am looking forward to the launch. I was encouraged by Peadar O'Riada to do it [solo], and his belief is that unaccompanied music is music that will last forever, it's individual and solo and you are more exposed and you are really hearing the music and the mu¬sic comes from the heart. Initially I found it difficult and took me a few months to get used to listening to myself on my own, but it is very natural - nothing added and nothing taken away. I played with my eyes closed and played from the inside out, and having recorded loads of tracks we chose and recorded 16 tracks," Mary said…………
"I am very pleased with it and it has given me confidence as a solo player. I've been getting extremely good feedback, particularly because it is a solo album. The feedback has been amazing and many people have said they love listening to the solo music, they love the tune choice and the key change and to hear it uninterrupted. It's raw, just me and the concertina and it's very pure. I have really enjoyed doing it and I'm really happy with what I have achieved. I think people are beginning to go this solo route and they are beginning to look at the pure music. There is lots of progression in music, it's changing all the time, but at the same time we have to look back and see where it came from and what is it really made up of and that's what a solo recording is all about," she said…….
Mary's last solo recording The Blackberry Blossom was held in Minogue's Bar in Tulla in October 2001 and was a memorable occasion for her, with some well known musicians present. Among those that came to support her that night was Mary's lifelong mentor and great friend P Joe Hayes. Although he has passed away since then, P Joe's influence lives on in music and in the many musicians that drew inspiration from him. Mary's new CD Note for Note is one such testa¬ment to the wonderful influence which P Joe had on the next generation of East Clare Musicians."
Clare Champion Article 19.9.14

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 02:22 AM

At least by calling it a folk weekend most people will understand what you are providing.. 😉

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 07:56 PM

make a list of my posts which have offended you and i hereby request the moderators to expunge them.
it was not my intention to attack you personally. i don't agree with you on this subject - lets leave it at that.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 06:28 PM

Phil, there will definitely be a good proportion of traditional song at the Oxjam folk weekend. But do I take it then, that being the case, it's ok in your eyes to call it a 'folk' weekend.

And Jim, sorry, didn't realise you were using the 'royal' we ;) I think we've got to the stage where we should agree to differ, but hopefully you'll wish me well with the up coming weekend, the object of which is to raise as much money as possible for the work of Oxfam, so hopefully the advertising will work, and we'll get loads of bums on seats :)

Now we're back on first name terms, and at risk of being accused of a major thread drift, I'm planning to do the song 'The 14th of July' (also known as 'The little fighting chance' I believe) with the band. (I know you won't like what we will do with it) But I do like to know a little about the songs I perform, and have been singing this one for about 30 years, having learned it from the singing of Tony Rose (never heard anyone else do it) However, I've struggled to find out anything about the song. It's obviously about a naval battle between the French and the English, but I've been unable to find out which war, where the battle took place, etc. Are you familiar with the song? And if so, can I draw on your expertise and can you tell me anything about it?

John

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 04:21 PM

BH:

The event I'm talking about is 'The Bury St Edmunds OXJAM folk weekend ' and that's how I've billed it, so if I adopt your policy, then I would have to re-brand it as 'The Bury St Edmunds OXJAM mix of traditional song, new songs in that style, contempory songs and folk/rock weekend'

My answer's the same, which is that it's all about the content, not the labelling. If you care about 'folk' being used to denote a certain kind of music, then - if you've got anything to do with an event that's labelled 'folk' - you'll try to maximise the amount of that kind of music that gets played at the event. And if you don't, you won't.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 01:51 PM

'raise a response from local small-farmers'. I'm very glad to see this, Jim, and I wish you well with it. Unfortunately this only goes to emphasise how different things are over here and where you are, and indeed have been for the last 50 years. There was until recently a very strong localised tradition in the dales to the west of Sheffield. There was a strong singing tradition based around the farming community and the local hunts. There are still singers who have picked up their songs in this community and indeed their children are still following in the tradition. However their audiences have changed dramatically. The farming community no longer want to hear these songs and the only real outlet for these singers now is the folk revival which they have taken to gratefully and the folk scene has embraced them gratefully.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 01:36 PM

"Now you're making a sweeping assumption there Jim, "
The comment wasn't aimed at you John - the "you" was a 'royal you', aimed at people who have expressed a distinct dislike of folk song.
"Ok, lets say most of the population that DO come into contact with it,"
Fine if they ar the people you want to aim it at - as far as I'm concerned, they represent far to few a minority of the general population to change any existing definition.
The bums I would like to see on seats are those who don't necessarily have access to the internet - they are largely the ones we failed to involve.
I'm now happily in the position where can go to our local Wednesday night session and sing English songs that raise a response from local small-farmers - they are the audiences that future interest me - nothing to do with my singing, just a sign that singing is becoming more acceptable in public places..
I really am the wrong person to ask on this one; whole people continue to misuse the term 'folk', I'm quite likely to advise them to call it something like 'Typhoid Mary' music to keep people away from it and avoid further damage.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 12:07 PM

'If you don't just want the term as a convenient hat-peg to hang your music on, why in god's name do you want your music identified with something that doesn't ring your bells

Now you're making a sweeping assumption there Jim, actually what you call 'folk' very definitely rings all my bells!

'Most of the population wouldn't call it anything because they've never come into contact with it.

Ok, lets say most of the population that DO come into contact with it, because that is most definitely the case from the evidence I see in England. You've had several people on this thread tell you that, not just me.

By the way, there is an interesting post on my thread about Folk/rock from a chap called Mark Clark from across the pond.