What makes a new song a folk song?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 07:42 AM

More middle-class armchair musings
Did you ever trace a copy of your book on fly fishing, I wonder?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 07:23 AM

You know - as these post-equinoctial evenings draw in I really miss my clay church warden; one of the true joys of my old Brancepeth Castle days, holed in from the tempest, leafing through hoary old copies of Child and centuries old Popular Ballad collections in search of something truly strange before a roaring fire of logs & coal whilst necking a cheap bottle of Hungarian merlot to a soundtrack of Transylvanian field-recordings, or Ritual Flute Music of New Guinea or Bach's B minor Mass or Popol Vuh's Affenstunde or my cherished vinyl of The Clemencic Consort's Carmina Burana originals.

Times I might yearn for the whole antiquarian whiff that these days seems long gone as I snuggle up on the sofa in centrally-heated domestic bliss to watch The Great British Bake Off, or the new BFI DVD of The Changes full of spectral Folk Horror & Hauntological inspirations in the classic soundtrack that has Paddy Kingsland conducting his sonic seance in the Radiophonic Workshop which rests at the heart and soul of a whole Folk Vision, itself born of a yearning for that which never was but never the less seems a good deal more real to the increasingly bland MOR shite that passes as Folk these days. To my ears at least, because...

Thing is, Old Man - it's all a matter of taste. And the best of it is, it will ALWAYS be new to someone, so - Keep Moving Gentlemen, even if it is just on your grandad's old rocking chair.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 06:34 AM

"This is not a judgement though, it's an observation"
It appears to be an extremely restricted observation
At least half of the clubs I frequented were predominantly, if not overwhelmingly working class based.
None were the rose-tinted 'son's of the soil' purveyors you describe (imagine from your middle-class armchair?).
The repertoire itself defies your description if you examine it in its entirety.
The Irish scene on which you pour your contempt, as is the Scots scene, from what I have gathered
Mus#ch of the invaluable work done in Scotland has been drawn from those good-old middle-class institutions, the bothies, and they and those of us in Ireland have taken our lead from the repertoires of the middle class nobility of the roads, the Travellers.
If it hadn't been for the latter, you wouldn't have a centuries old ballad repertoire you now appear to be prepared to pour down the gutter.
A direct link between Scots folk music enthusiasts and Travellers in the form of the Elphinstone Institute has long been in existence, and the School of Scottish Studies publications, Tocher and Scottish Studies has benefited and been enriched by the material given by the 'despised' Tinkers.
Such is the veracity of your "pastoral dreaming"
Maybe we should all buy folkie greenhouses as second homes - then we could enlighten ourselves with regular visits to the land of armchairs and curling pipe smoke.
You really do need to get out more.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 05:04 AM

I think it's best not to prejudge your audience & fellow-singers

I'm not judging or prejudging, merely pointing out how things are with respect of Folk as a middle-class construct that operates at several very significant removes from the culture in which these songs originated. In over 40 years of folkin' I've never found it to be any different : the more Trad the club, the more middle-class the singers. Over here in our proletarian sea-side Shangri-La you'd be lucky to hear ONE traditional song in the local folk club, which is why I gave up long ago - not because I'm too stuck up, but because there was little point in them trying to enjoy my shit, or me trying to enjoy theirs. Fair dos, I suppose.

This is not a judgement though, it's an observation on the very nature of Folk as a cultural artifice born from long years of bitter-sweet experience. Ultimately I see no real harm in it & in most cases it's a very good thing in providing the catalyst for some amazing music, but none of it quite so amazing as the real thing which, unfortunately, it does tend to obscure rather, despite seeking to somehow represent it.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 04:55 AM

jim, i cant really talk about singers nights and give an overall picture any more than you,because last year i only visited 3 in england, all in the north east, nobody sang fifties pop songs, but of course it could have been happening somewhere else.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 04:37 AM

"that's cos you lie about us and over simplify."
Show where I lie Al - I really don't go in for that sort of thing on a public debate forum, I don't see the point.
I spent most of my life visiting folk clubs, not because I "should have" but because I wanted to - it was my introduction to folk song and what I heard inspired me to take it further.
I had hoped that others would continue to have the opportunities I had, but now, it seems, it's necessary to send out search parties beforehand to make sure you are given what you have been promised.
Funny about your experiences at the Grey Cock - mine was always exactly the opposite.
I always found them welcoming and I was guaranteed a night of good to excellent singing there whenever I was able to go.
A surprise blast from the past - a friend recently presented me with a recording of the night I guested there with my accompanist and fellow singer friend in the early seventies - I thought it wore quite well down the years, though I am far more critical of my singing than I was then.
The Grey Cock, via one of its founder members, Charles Parker, can boast 'The Radio Ballads' and the considerable output of other radio programmes that pioneered the work of giving working people a public voice - helped change the history of public broadcasting as far as working people are concerned.
Charles, and other members of the club, revisited and recorded Cecilia Costello and wroked with chainmaker, George Dunne, putting a whole batch of new material into the revival.
Charles' work, in all its glory, can now be accessed on the top floor of Birmingham Central Library for all to listen to.   
The club extensively researched Midlands songs, saving them from extinction.
Early members, such as Roy Palmer, continue to do invaluable work in producing book after book of songs about working class life and experience - our understanding of industrial, military and nautical songs would be very much poorer without his work.
I never got round to seeing Banner Theatre, but I'm told they did excellent work.
I wish I could clam a fraction of that about our work.
What did you do in the war daddy!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 03:54 AM

Nice bit of self promotion Dick (I think!!) - not sure of your point, but at least no-one can accuse you of being backward about coming forward!
spot on, Jim, my point is that you can ascertain what kind of folk music from seeing who is advertised, if you saw jim mcfarlane you would know that you were going to get irish unaccompanied folk songs, martin carthy trad songs with guitar, leon rosselson contemporary songs with guitar, so what it say on the tin you are going to get.
   singers nights, are of course different,incidentally the i can think of only two singers who occasionally include fifties pop songs that is andy caven and dave burland, dave, does include trad songs too.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 03:53 AM

You fellers can sure dish it out, but you seem to have trouble taking it
Jim Carroll

that's cos you lie about us and over simplify. i never saw joe heaney, or several others, i should have. i became a professional singer out of financial necessity. playing anything a jobbing musician had to to make living. i learned to respect songwriters whose work put food on the table. when i wasn't working in pubs - i visited my fair share of folk clubs, but i admit not as many as i perhaps should have.

i did buy joe's double album from a fine singer/songwriter called Pete Coe, who carries round albums by joe and others like him for people who might be interested.

Joe of couse used to sing some songs in Irish. perhaps he did this at a Clancy's concert. they were a very public face of folk music type act. i never saw them. but i remember Ian Campbell saying they had this thing, where every night they used to run on stage and and throw aside a stool that was put there every night for them to throw aside, in a lets get down to business sort of gesture.

At our song club in the Vernon, Derby we had a singer who regularly sang in Gaelic. we all listened respectfully - though admittedly without a great deal of comprehension to hear him do his three songs. Hugh Lamont. we also listened to every other sort of music.

you really are talking bollocks about the English folkscene - we aren't a hard nosed gangs of 1950's concert goers who next week will be listening to MJQ, and expect exactly whats on the ticket.

I on the other hand exaggerate not a jot when i describe the reaction oF your mates at the Grey Cock folk club in Birminghan and their arrogance and unfriendliness - I will never forget it.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 03:38 AM

"They are revived, revered and sustained by a broad cross section of people. "
They were masede and passed on by the working people - they reflect their lives and experiences down they ages - they are workers songs just as surely as the songs you sing are products of the music industry
You'and jack Blandiver and Al ... have shown us the respect you have for the working people - in your case, especially when they grow old and risible.
Nuff for me Muskie, for all your blustering.
Jim Carroll
A RURAL CARPENTER

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 03:22 AM

Workers' music.

Piss off

They are revived, revered and sustained by a broad cross section of people.

I used to be bemused hearing social workers, cost accountants and teachers sing about how hard it is working down the pit. I'd reciprocate with a song about shagging in barns and bugger off before last orders due to having to go down the pit at 5.30 the following morning. Most of my muckers found it odd but funny that middle class warriors could be so condescending.

Many traditional songs have a beauty of their own and need no link to a struggle that has no bearing or comparison with any issues of today. A few draw parallels and many songs are being perpetuated without merit. I don't need the folk police to help me decide thank you.

Music is an abstraction. Only you can decide whether to listen or pop for a pint and piss. Just don't admonish others on your way to the gents eh?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 08:28 PM

"I believe you have stated words to the effect of "folk clubs should do what it says on the tin" on several occasions."
Way back I'm afraid - arguments like this have more or less convinced me that the will to "do what it says on the tin" is no longer a possibility.
My reason for entering this discussion in the first place was to respond tho the question " What makes a new song a folk song?"
I really am capable of changing my mind and have more or less done so on the question of whether the folk revival will live up to its commitment to the music whose name it has taken.   
"are you suggesting that the songs aren't worth singing?"
I take it that - somewhere in that camouflage of verbiage (pontification still rules O.K.), the answer is "no"
I have never suggested "keeping the tradition alive" - on the contrary - I have challenged those who claim to be doing so by claiming their own creations are part of a tradition
I find your dismissiveness that " should have died the death long ago," astounding - anything that continues to give pleasure has a function and your condemning them to death because they don't please you is little less than involuntary euthanasia not to say, unbelievably arrogant - especially from someone who doesn't hesitate to use them for his own ends - don't we all get a say in this?
I find your dismissal of the folk repertoire as "pastoral dreaming" equally incredible in it's shallowness - I suggested once that you venture out of your folkie greenhouse - obviously to no avail.
The universality of the themes and the fact that they served for so long as their ownly means of self-expression for working people - right up to the present day for some groups.
Working people no longer have a facility to express their experiences creatively - we have become recipients of our culture rather than part of it.
You once arrogantly sneerily (and characteristically) dismissed the fact that thousands of young people from all walks of life have come to traditional music for the first time and are playing it like old masters - wonder if you'd mind repeating it to save me the trouble of digging it out?).
You sneery (seems to be your fixed expression) at those of us who actually like the songs and have taken the trouble to learn more and pass on what we find as "middle-class hobbyists" again (fifty years as a jobbing electrician in my case, keeping company with house and industrial painters, council workers, builders, farm workers, merchant seamen, factory workers..... all sharing my love of music.
The finest collector of song in Ireland, Tom Munnelly, was a knitting machinist before he was roped in as a collector - his immediate boss, Breandán Breathnach, was the son of a silk weaver who was brought up in The Liberties in Dublin and eventually became civil servant in the Department of agriculture.
They both used to joke over a pint that they were the only ones in their department without a higher education - both of them made their indlible mark on traditional music and will be remembered as long as the music is remembered - not bad for a couple of "middle-class" working men.
Your arrogant dismissal of workers music and those who pursue it exudes middle class armchair dilettantism - a curl of pipe-smoke over the top of the armchair would complete the picture.   
Your dismissive attitude indicates you have no time for folk song - fine, your loss
I respect your right not to, would that a little of that respect is offered to those that do, or, at the very least, we are let get on with it without your middle-class disdain - I got enogh of that from school when I was told by teachers that all I needed to know on leaving was how to check my wage packet on Friday - they were pretty middle-class too.
Jeeze - is that the time?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 08:15 PM

... of course I'd be much happier with a 'folk scene'
where the likes of Ray Winston and Vinnie Jones were celebrated 'folk' singers....

oh well.. we can dream....

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 07:40 PM

Even if a folk club is 100% trad, you're not going to be hearing Traditional Singing, just a load of middle-class revivalist hobbyists having a good time at the expense of a culture from which they're a million miles removed in socio-economic terms.

You're right about folk clubs being a highly artificial environment for the recreation of something which originally flourished in totally different settings. But as far as class is concerned, I think it's best not to prejudge your audience & fellow-singers - and certainly not to assume that there's some other pub down the road which is full of real authentic ordinary working people. Folk events (of whatever sort) attract a tiny, highly unrepresentative fraction of the population: it's the fraction of the population who are interested in folk (of whatever sort). As for whether they grew up on a trust fund or free school meals, you can't really tell without asking, can you? DA,DT,DK,DC I say.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 06:27 PM

Jim,
Way back in this saga of a thread you complainde of going into folk clubs and hearing little that you recognised as folk song,and having a problem with clubs presenting material which has little to do with folk.
I believe you have stated words to the effect of "folk clubs should do what it says on the tin" on several occasions.
I think that reasonably amounts to complaining certain clubs are misusing the title of folk club.
Singers I know have performed at open mike sessions and hearing the material other people were doing were expecting a hostile response to their traditional offerings and were amazed not to be ridiculed and booed off stage.They may have been lucky but it can happen.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 06:21 PM

For what - are you suggesting that the songs aren't worth singing?

Odd one really, given the overall slow-tech / lo-tech societal context in which these things arose - their natural habitat if you like. Things move on, things improve, things fall away with certain inevitability & popular / vernacular musical experience reflects that. On a basic level Folk as a concept reacts against modernity by postulating a more pastoral authenticity which defined the whole 60s / 70s aesthetic, and still does , be it in the clubs as a whole or on more weird margins, however so ironic that might be by way of a more self-conscious post-modern hauntology that underwrites much of Folk has become. We're all part of the modern world and Folk functions as a conduit to a pastoral dreaming enshrined in the old songs and the old singers thereof, whose mastery is, I fear, all too often overlooked by a revival either hell bent on improving things or else operating on the conceit that it is somehow keeping the tradition alive, which is not just utter bollocks but ultimately disrespectful to the working-class men and women who made and sang these songs as part of a life less ordinary.

I personally have largely stopped singing the old songs out of an increased sense of cultural awkwardness with respect of this. Even if a folk club is 100% trad, you're not going to be hearing Traditional Singing, just a load of middle-class revivalist hobbyists having a good time at the expense of a culture from which they're a million miles removed in socio-economic terms. I've had to move away from folk clubs, singarounds and other DFCs to get a renewed sense of just what it is I love about the old songs anyway, and whilst I can applaud the efforts of collectors and collators and curators in preserving the stuff of The Tradition in terms of transcriptions, field recordings and Broadsides (which ARE at the very heart of the thing, despite being often dismissed here as being 'Commercial') I'm less convinced by the revival performers who have made these songs into something very different from what they were.

But this is all very personal, like I say. Do what thou wilt and all. BUT. I think it was Martin Carthy who said the worst thing to do with these songs is NOT to sing them, but my feeling is that they've been sang to the very point of meaninglessness in an artificially extended lifetime when they should have died the death long ago, which, in a very real sense, they did.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 05:56 PM

Despises....

One tradition is knowing when to drain your glass and piss off to the bar.

I haven't even heard you sing but sometimes, you just know...

Most people love learning, arranging and modifying old songs for a new audience. I doubt any of us despise them. Plenty of roses grow in decent cow shit.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 05:43 PM

"Jim you'r at it again"
I am not "at" anything - I have responded to all your accusations as best I can
I do not put words in anybody's mouth - unlike those who persistently attribute views to me which |I do not hold.
On this occasion, I appear to have mistaken your reference to "friendly " clubs as a suggestion that my attitude is not welcoming - my apologies.
" made the suggestion you might not get the reaction you expected,your crystal ball obviously tells you otherwise."
No - my common sense tells me otherwise - as you rightfully pointed out - the people who turned up for the Clancys were not prepared to accept Joe Heaney - are you seriously suggesting that those weaned on Lady Gaga or Beyoncé would not react similarly - give us a break!
"You do keep complaining many folk clubs should not use the title as they offer little you recognise as folk. "
I do no such thing - I suggest that the constant misuse of the term 'folk' has all but driven out the music that put the club scene on the road in the first place has all but driven traditional music off the scene - too late to do anything about "stopping it" - stop putting words in my mouth.
"You said soon as they got TV"
I said the Travellers did
Television is accepted as adversely affecting our libraries and it has all but killed the cinema and many other activities we used to involve ourselves in.
"Can you blame them?"
For what - are you suggesting that the songs aren't worth singing?
"The old songs and tunes are of value because we are here to rediscover and cherish them."
Many of us actually enjoy them, as we do Shakespeare and Dickens and Homer and Zola
Some of us also recognise them as an unwritten part of our history - where we've been and what we've done.
Can anybody produce ay other musical form in which I would have to log on beforehand in order to check that I'm going to find what I have been promised before driving halfway across the county to take a chance?
Nice bit of self promotion Dick (I think!!) - not sure of your point, but at least no-one can accuse you of being backward about coming forward!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 05:27 PM

"Pop = popular - the form in which it lasts varies from - how many months - years? - the individual songs - blink-of-an-eye and they're gone"
not when the pop song is a folk song that has become a folk song, for example.. all around my hat, the fact that all around my hat has been popularised does not mean that it will disappear within a blink of an eye., the truth is the fact it has been popularised is going to mean the opposite that more people will have heard it and therefore it will be remembered by more people.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:55 PM

I don't give that impression. You wish to think I do, which is a different thing entirely.

You give the impression you give, mate - you're the one person who can't say what that impression is. And on this thread the impression you're giving is of someone who despises traditional songs and people who sing them. Or is "old tit-trousers" meant to be flattery?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:43 PM

With regard to the unworthy comment,that was made to distinguish between clubs which have a policy regarding what material they offer that meets with your approval and those that don,t.
You do keep complaining many folk clubs should not use the title as they offer little you recognise as folk.
I really am starting to believe you deliberately misunderstand just to keep an argument going

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:35 PM

a bit unworthy of you Jack.

I'm recalling yr own anecdote of a few years back, Jim. You said soon as they got TVs they stopped singing more or less overnight. Can you blame them?

Pop / Popular - for sure! I include the old songs as part of the process of Vernacular music making which, as I said a few post back, is as healthy or even healthier than ever.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:22 PM

it is simple if jim carroll tuened up at a folk club and martin carthy was advertised that is what he would get
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aj_cEP-PdA
or dick miles here performing in a folk club a traditional song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE4J5P8g-fw

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:13 PM

Jim you'r at it again,where do I say anything about you being unfriendly and unwelcoming to any one at your folk club.
Will you please stop putting your words in my mouth.
I made the suggestion you might not get the reaction you expected,your crystal ball obviously tells you otherwise.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Brooks
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:09 PM

Folk songs are written by FOLKS......I do not know of a horse or a
possum that wrote a song...but some jackai try to sing 'em
as Woody said "when you play music by ear, it don't mean you wiggle your ears to sound the tune...."
does it sound good ??? do people hum along to the tune, or listen to it over and over to learn the words ???
it's a folk song (even the pop stuff has worked its' way into the folk medium....
new verses added or new words to an old tune ???? it's part of the FOLK PROCESS
keep on singin' and strummin'

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:06 PM

"I was comparing the stayability of folk song to the mayfly length existence of your average pop number."


songs of the dead versus songs of the living ?????

The old songs and tunes are of value because we are here to rediscover and cherish them.
But there's no guarantee humanity will still be around in a couple of centuries time
to heap similar worth on the memorable songs writen in our life times....


..... oh do cheer up punkfolkrocker.. surely people aren't that self destructively stupid.....???

You're right, no point getting all upset, let's all go listen to some more Kid Carpet...

moo - rural/urban

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:00 PM

"if the audience came to see the Clancy,s they were telling the organisers they only wanted to see and hear them."
You seem to be wanting to have your cake and eat it here
On the one hand it's understandable that an audience can tell Jo they don't want him, but I should go to a pop open mike and sing what i want - while at th same time suggesting that I am being "unfieldly and unwelcoming" if someone turns up at my folk club with a Stradcaster and a sound system and plays 'That'll be the Day".
"would anyone know about these durable old warhorses had there not been a revival driven by a diligence of collectors working against the clock convinced of their imminent demise? "
No, but they would have existed for centuries, revival or not
" old tradition bearers giving up on the old songs overnight soon as they found something better to do"
The song tradition began to disappear with the advent of the Industrial revolution - there were still traces of it when Sharp declared it to be on the wane - the BBC were still finding a fair amount of it in the 1950s and Travellers were still making songs in the 1990s and possibly still are - hardly "as soon as...." - a bit unworthy of you Jack.
"Pop's durability is as an Idiom"
Pop = popular - the form in which it lasts varies from - how many months - years? - the individual songs - blink-of-an-eye and they're gone
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 03:50 PM

True Steve,when trying to explain something to a non English speaker I find putting things in another way solves the incomprehension problem.
I've tried that here to no avail.
The person you are talking to has to want to understand as well,some people go out of their way read it the wrong way.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 03:40 PM

I was comparing the stayability of folk song to the mayfly length existence of your average pop number.

And yet... would anyone know about these durable old warhorses had there not been a revival driven by a diligence of collectors working against the clock convinced of their imminent demise? And what of Jim Carroll's tales of whole communities of hoary old tradition bearers giving up on the old songs overnight soon as they found something better to do - i.e. watch TV like any other sensible human being?

Pop's durability is as an Idiom - as such it grows and changes and shoots off in ways no one can readily predict as it sheds and dates deliciously. We're immersed in METRONOMY right now; hadn't even heard of them a year ago, now their exquisitely crafted pop perfection embodies many hundreds of years of evolved cultural process - certainly to my jaded ears anyway.

As Moondog might have said (but never did):

The mayfly flits fleetingly in the spring sky then dies -
Thus billions of years of loving life unfurl before our very eyes!

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 03:37 PM

"I damn well don't know what would happen,neither do you, "
You must be incredibly naive then
"You are one of the few people who would equate that with a pop music concert.,"
I do no such thing - I'm pointing out that people go out for a nights music expecting to hear what they are promised - any sort of music, with the exception of folk song, it seems.
Even the Sussex Mollusk has conceded that I would have to check first before I went to a folk club if I expected to hear a folk song at a folk club.
"can't see where I said anything about unworthy."
Did you not write this?
"If you are refering to the sort of club which is not worthy,in your eyes of calling itself a folk club"
"If answering a question you asked is "dishing it out",I'm sorry "
Apologies - that was a general point aimed at those who have responded as they have to my comments - not you.
"I sometimes think when reading these posts we seem to have a communication problem,"
We do indeed - works both ways
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 03:33 PM

I don't give that impression. You wish to think I do, which is a different thing entirely.

Fascinating how odd words are taken out of context in order to try to make a point that doesn't and never has related to what normal people know as folk. Jim I can make allowances for, he is like the old bloke at the end of the bar who you have to think which subjects you have been told to avoid when you try to be civil with him. But he appears to have acolytes.

Thank Clapton they are a rare pseud in folk clubs.

What makes a new song a folk song? People recognising it as within the genre.

Some on here have an affinity with the weird prats who say I didn't weigh myself, but I massed myself because strictly speaking... Err. Where's everybody gone?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 03:24 PM

'we seem to have a communication problem'

You only need to read the first 20 postings to realise that.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 03:16 PM

Jim,
I damn well don't know what would happen,neither do you, don,t have the arrogance to put your words and thoughts into my mouth.
Joe would have been booed off stage at a Clancy Brothers Concert,You are one of the few people who would equate that with a pop music concert.
Such unfortunate things happen to performers and artists of all kinds,
if the audience came to see the Clancy,s they were telling the organisers they only wanted to see and hear them.
Some people make their   
point more forcefully than others.
I am being dishonest when I talk about unworthy,can't see where I said anything about unworthy.
Another case of putting words your words in my mouth.
If answering a question you asked is "dishing it out",I'm sorry I took the trouble to try and explain.

I sometimes think when reading these posts we seem to have a communication problem, even though we both think we speak the same language we obviously don't.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 01:48 PM

" answer to your question about an open mic "pop" venue,I have no idea, try it you might be surprised."
I doubt it somehow - Joe heaney once tried it at a Clancy Brothers concert and would have been booed off the stage had not the Clancys had the good grace to stop it happening
Give us a break Derrick - you know damn well what would happen as well as I do.
Ind know - I don't necessarily mean the top ten hits - I mean any open mike club used to pop music of any sort.
You are bein as dishonest as Muskie and his merrie men when you talk about unworthy - would you consider a Frank Sinatra number to be "unworthy" of a concert of operatic arias - or just inappropriate?
You are the ones putting values on this argument - I'm happy to live and let live as long as somebody doesn't try and sell me something its not.
I didn't say that all pop music was shite Spleen - I said it was disposable - that's how the pop industry works.
I was comparing the stayability of folk song to the mayfly length existence of your average pop number.
You fellers can sure dish it out, but you seem to have trouble taking it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 12:31 PM

Musket: I also appear to hate music that I have cherished throughout my life.

When you use phrases like "old tit trousers tuning up his finger / ear instrument", yes, funnily enough, that is the impression you give.

BH: I also wonder if we are the only country in the world where there is an element who have difficulty in acknowledging new music as part of, and continuing a tradition, and giving that new music the same name as the tradition.

I'd be amazed if we were - apart from anything else, "giving that new music the same name as the tradition" sounds like a recipe for confusion wherever you're doing it. I read the other day - probably on Mudcat - that German musicians use two completely different words. The old stuff, which doesn't change and doesn't get added to (unless someone collects a new old song) is das Volkslied; the new stuff is das Folksong. Make what you will of that!

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 12:27 PM

Not all pop music is throwaway shite, Jim. You can't, surely, dismiss a 60 year body of work that includes so many incredible singles and albums quite that glibly.

In some ways, for someone like me in 2014, there is very little difference in listening to a wonderful 45 year old song like "Butcher's Tale (Western Front 1914)" from the Zombies' Odessey and Oracle album to listening to a 1927 recording of Dock Boggs. Different styles, but a similar impact on me as the listener... which is always and has to be subjective. I personally wouldn't have a problem hearing either in a folk club.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 12:08 PM

'The UK folk scene STILL IS a place that promotes and enjoys an important and greatly neglected part of our culture - TRADITIONAL FOLK MUSIC. If anyone disagrees with this statement then provide proof it is otherwise, if they cant would they stop talking balderdash.
we now have a degree course[ that is relatively recent] in newcastle that does just this. we have folk clubs that book tradtional music makers a well as song writers, we have festivals where countrydancing is done, where song writers and singers of traditional songs are booked.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 12:03 PM

Jim,
In answer to your question about an open mic "pop" venue,I have no idea, try it you might be surprised.
L am assumming that by "pop" you mean music aimed at the top ten hits list past or present.
If you are refering to the sort of club which is not worthy,in your eyes of calling itself a folk club, again I have no idea of what any particular audiences reaction might be,but again I think you might be surprised

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 11:42 AM

"The majority are a friendly and welcoming set of people."
Simple question
If I turned up at an open mic pop venue and gave a selection from Joe Heaney's greatest hits, how "welcome" would I be
"I appear to be sinking into goose stepping now!"
How else would you describe your behaviour to other people's music and particularly towards the older generation who gave it to us - contempt doesn't begin to describe it
I have vnever described myself as an "expert" - just an enthusiast whe has been at it a long time - don't wear my waistband under my armpits yet - but nearly there
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 10:31 AM

Think yourself lucky Bryan. I appear to be sinking into goose stepping now! (It's alright. I still think you are weird, just in case you think I'm sucking up to you.)

I also appear to hate music that I have cherished throughout my life. It must be true. Jim is an expert on folk, according to err.. Jim.

Meanwhile back at the folk club. We are having great nights with a wide plethora of folk music, from the young lad singing about having lovers balls in DADGAD all the way to old tit trousers tuning up his finger / ear instrument. And all sandals and other lifestyle cliches in between. "Eyup sithee, is this beer organic?"

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 10:12 AM

The Yanks might actually have a more simple and sensible perspective on all this...

'Old Timey Music' and 'New Timey Music'.

With an implicictly understood underlying core continuum
linking past, present, and potential future traditions... ????



... or did I just dream that...

it's so hard to keep a grasp on reality at mudcat these days...??????

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 09:15 AM

Thanks Derrick. I'm out of here. There are a few people sinking into self-parody.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 08:49 AM

Don,
I agree with The Snail,this thread is not typical of the majority of British or Irish folkies.
The majority are a friendly and welcoming set of people.
They may prefer one sort of material to another but will not react in hostile way to other peoples songs,most would be genuinely interested in your material and the differences and simularities.
The protagonists in the arguments above are at the more fanatical ends of of opinion and unwilling to give ground to each other or anyone else.
The rest of us are friendly.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 08:29 AM

I'm not particularly talking bout the 'navel gazers' John some of them display a great deal of skill and creativity, folk or not.
The ones that get me are those who regurgitate pop songs indifferently and call them pop, or attempt to cram old songs into pop disciplines, usually ineptly, otherwise they would be acceptable in the pop field.
Some`of the songs we are talking about as folk are centuries old - some of us believe the to still have relevance in their earlier forms - they did for many of us for long enough.
The problem with modern forms of popular creation is they come with a shelf-life of what - three, four, five months if you're lucky, then they're replaced by the newst batch off the conveyor belt.
It seems that much of the material being argued for here are the cast-offs of the pop industry, who won't let us claim them as our own, even if we wanted to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 08:13 AM

'The folk scene used to be a place to promote and enjoy an important and greatly neglected part of our culture - now it has largely become the stamping ground of a bunch of people not imaginative enough to come up with their own name for the music they wish to perform, nor talented enough to make it on the pop scene, where their real interests lie.

That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation Jim, although I agree in part, as I too have a distaste for the 'navel gazing' singer songwriters that have become all to common, assuming that's what you are referring to, although there are many out there who's songs have a real substance. What really winds me up is those who turn up to an 'open' night with the sole object of showcasing themselves, and after doing their 'turn' pack up and leave, but that's a different issue.

But I can assure you again, as numerous others have done on this thread, there is still a healthy number out there promoting and protecting the tradition in their various ways. I also wonder if we are the only country in the world where there is an element who have difficulty in acknowledging new music as part of, and continuing a tradition, and giving that new music the same name as the tradition.

John

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 07:37 AM

Missed a bit
"massive chips on their shoulders "
I may no longer have anything to do with English folk clubs but the decades I was involved on all levels was enough for me to be around long enough to see the decline and degeneration - your "ding' ding - Lewes is on the bus" attitude and your hit-and -run method of arguing doesn't change that fact.
If nothing else, the argument for 'new folk' and some of the clips available is confirmation enough for me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 07:31 AM

"It allows us to enjoy traditional music alongside other forms of folk music "
Not if you hav anything to do with it Muskie - you have spent two threads goose-stepping over traditional music and those who have anything to do with it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 07:06 AM

Don. You might understand now why many "folk clubs" over here have been rebranded as acoustic roots, ditto many festivals. It allows us to enjoy traditional music alongside other forms of folk music without nutters screaming that we don't know what folk is, and shouting their PIN number at you. (They all seem to have the same pin number, 1954. I fail to see whatever else it means.)

All music is welcome over here. And if that keeps a few miserable sods rearranging their library at home, at least we are spared bad songs for the sake of existing. Evolutionary process, the good ones survive.

Easier to get to the bar without some twat telling you you sing it wrong too for that matter.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 06:54 AM

Don, don't believe everything you read on Mudcat, especially anything said by Big Al Whittle, Jim Carroll or Musket. None of them paint a picture of English traditional folk clubs that I recognise and I help to run one. Big Al and Jim both have massive chips on their shoulders resulting from their personal histories and I sometimes suspect that Musket is a serial fantasist.
If you're ever in the UK, get in touch. Amonsgt the American performers we have booked are Joe Penland, Judy Cook, Jeff Davis and Jeff Warner.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 06:07 AM

This discussion has has been a display of 'folk policing' from people who invented the term to p#level at trad loving enthusiasts - "go away - your music is no longer relevant - out of date
It's cultural fascism at its worst anything older than 50 years should be romoved from the scene to make way for us new kids on the block - scorched earth.
Bill the Bard must be shaking in his shroud in Westminster Abbey
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 05:33 AM

from the influences you mention I doubt if you would be ethnic sounding enough for the traddy crowd in England. basically you have to swallow the gospel as proposed by Ewan to propitiate them.

This is bollocks.

independent spirits such as your own Don, people who have striven creatively to find their own understanding - well you may be tolerated, but you'd never be part of the gang.

This is Al over-generalising from his own experience.

a very narrow pathway of conformity is the only way. the same songs delivered as much as possible in the same way. miserable sods really - you sound far too nice.

And we're back to bollocks.

Utter, utter bollocks.