BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 08:49 AM

You really have the mentality of a seven year

Overly generous, that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 08:03 AM

You really have the mentality of a seven year old don't you. I don't CARE about winning or losing it's not what it is all about.

"When the one great scorer comes to mark against your name he writes not if you won or lost but how you played the game"

You'd do well to consider this quote.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 07:22 AM

If you could answer, you would.
Your pathetic excuses for not answering fool no-one.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 04:27 AM

Not playing your silly little games professor.

Stick to something you do well ............... like being a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 04:21 AM

"Jim, the real, true reason that you won't justify your description "Pro Israeli activists" in the context of lifelong, Labour members is that you can't."
No Keith - the reason is because I have nothing to say to you Three Stooges - a thug, a dishonest moron and an out-of-control troll.
What's the point?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 04:15 AM

Steve,
Because they are both Israel apologists. What's your problem?

Repeating an assertion is not the same as justifying it, and calling me silly names does not cut it either.
Can you for once justify your assertion.

Rag,
Will you PLEASE explain why it was not antisemitic for you to say that failing to recognise antisemitism does not make you racist, but failing to recognise any other racism does.

Jim, the real, true reason that you won't justify your description "Pro Israeli activists" in the context of lifelong, Labour members is that you can't.

You and Steve would like to say that their views on antisemitism should be dismissed because they are Jews. You dare not do that so you say their views on antisemitism should be dismissed because they are "Pro-Israeli" or "Israeli apologists."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 01:28 AM

Jim Carroll - 13 Aug 16 - 07:22 PM

"Not confirming anything"

Well you never have in the past Jom, so why start now. Why change the habits of a lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:22 PM

Not confirming anything for liars anymore Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:58 PM

So, our resident Jew haters, in desperation, try a new tactic - smear those who call them out by calling them anti-Semites......doh! Must be another Jewish conspiracy that's making them look stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:16 PM

Because they are both Israel apologists. What's your problem? Now why don't you just sod off, you racist and antisemite?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 04:01 PM

Jim,
Could you PLEASE clarify what you mean by "Pro Israeli activists" in the context of lifelong, Labour members?

Steve,
You quoted two Israel apologists

Could you PLEASE explain why you so described a Labour MP and Peer.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 02:07 PM

Great, more BooSpew.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 01:47 PM

One of Labor's remarkable generation of Jewish class warriors – along with the likes of Herschel Lewis Austin, Maurice Edelman and Ian Mikardo – in the 1930s Shinwell was in the vanguard of those fighting fascism. And never known to have let an anti-Semitic slur go unchallenged, in one House of Commons debate he famously slapped a Conservative MP, who'd told him to 'Go back to Poland'.

In the inter-war years the Left was a magnet for Jewish progressives and, post-1945, every Labor government and Shadow Cabinet included a clutch of eminent Jews as members or senior advisers.

From the premierships of Clement Attlee to Gordon Brown – via Harold Wilson, Jim Callaghan and Tony Blair – Jews played key roles in shaping Britain's destiny. And, though Labor had its fair share of closet Antisemites, the least murmur of it was ruthless quashed.

Shamefully, today's leadership is a feeble shadow of its honorable past, the party's ranks now swelled by bigots, whose voguish anti-Zionism has morphed into vicious Jew-bashing.

Many believe the responsibility for this lies with Labor's 'accidental' leader, Jeremy Corbyn, an old-time, ultra-Leftist, fervent supporter of the Palestinian cause, self-proclaimed 'friend' of Hezbollah and Hamas, and associate of Holocaust deniers, like Paul Eisen.

Luciana's battle with UKLabor's Jew-haters

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 12:09 PM

"Yet another multi-coloured spittle-flecked rant from Jom."
You have no intention of changing your behaviour -you still remain the squalid little man you have presented to Mudcat for far too long.
As far as I am concerned, this is finished, and, as far as I am concerned, I hope your infestation of this forum is finished too.
Your behaviour towards humanity in general is contemptible and your behaviour here is unbelievable - you obviously totally lack any self control.
It's flattering of you to suggest I have "pals" - I never thought of them as anybody other than people with a half-decent outlook who I find myself agreeing on most things.
You of course, have your little duo - a venom spitting troll and somebody who is incapable of separating truth form fiction, yet is very quick to accuse other of the same - an admirable Ménage à trois - may god bless all who sail in her
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 12:02 PM

I have been out of the country for a fortnight with almost no Internet access. What strikes me most is that a great deal of "Whither Labour" material has been in the news from court arguments to head to head debates, yet despite constant posts this thread has not progressed at all.

I anticipate a few brickbats being thrown at me but thereafter the same posts just continuing to recur with slightly different insults and phrasing.   It is not a pretty sight.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 11:49 AM

Yet another multi-coloured spittle-flecked rant from Jom.

Good luck with giving me examples of me doing my own country down Jom - I still live in it, where was it you scrambled off to? Miltown Malbay, Co Clare wasn't it?

I deplore what successive self-serving groups of professional politicians and Trades Unionists have done to the country of my birth. Corbyn is an absolute disgrace and is thankfully unelectable - nothing more than a shoddy wrecker, who having spent his time in politics as the darling "rebel" of the left, now finds himself bitterly complaining about those who quite sensibly have rebelled against his leadership, or should I say total lack of it.

Come on Jim just give us the name of one single soldier who suffered summary execution during the First World War - Glad to see that you admitted that no check was carried out with regard to your source of the scurrilous lie that soldiers were subjected to such arbitrary justice as "summary execution" - Didn't happen, not once - Remember the famous words of Steve Shaw, Jom - you claimed that such executions were carried out, provide substantive evidence that they did (Look up what "substantive" and "evidence" mean - to date you've demonstrated that you haven't the foggiest notion on either).

If as you believe that I have never supplied links or sources then it should have been extremely easy for you to counter or disprove points I have made - but you haven't been able to do so once, neither have your pals, now why is that Jom if everything I state is so wrong. You could always provide an example but you'd struggle with that wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 10:20 AM

"You couldn't tell us anything, Regiment or branch of service, l"
You have already been told this.
We were there to record Tommy Kenny's experiences for his family - nothing more.
They graciously allowed us to retain a copy for ourselves.
They have Tommy's service record and they were fully aware of his service history, that was not pert of our brief.
The full interview is retained by us and is archived with our collection in the places it is housed.
Singer, Len Graham was given a copy of it for a War project he was doing - he suggested we do something further with it - not our brief
We have never published it as evidence for anything, I pass on information we were given for the interest of others - it is what we (John Faulkner, Sandra Kerr, grandson,Colin Kenny and I, were told.
That it doesn't fit with your jingoist Empire Loyalism is your problem, not mine.
Tat you choose to denigrate and insult a veteran of World War One is par for your particularly nasty course - your hatred for the ordinary British people and their achievements is well    known and palpable.
The diary extracts are nothing whatever to do with us - I found them on line, cut and pasted them and linked to them.
You want to call the grandson of yet another "lying" World War One veteran, I can't stop you but I can only wonder what kind of scumbag behaves like this towards people who served their country in that shitty, ill-conceived and inhumanely conducted war.
That you choose to do so doesn't surprise me in the least - that appears to be the level at which you operate.
There has to be a point where this gratuitous insulting behaviour - by both of you, is stopped.
Teribus permanently insults and takls down to people who disagree with him, Bobad hurls vituperative accusations of "antisemitism" at anybody who criticises Israel.
Neither provide reliable evidence for their claims or accusations.
Bobad dredges openly Islamophobic and racist sites for his information, and when it is challenged - more hysterical accusations of antisemitism.
Teribus NEVER PROVIDES PROOF TO HIS ARGUMENTS AND NEVER LINKS TO REAL INFORMATION - ALL WE ARE GIVEN IS ARROGANTLY DELIVERED UNQUALIFIED OPINIONS AND ABUSE IF WE DON'T ACCEPT THEM AT FACE VALUE
This behaviour is little short of this site being hacked by an extremist organisation - there has to be a cut-off point.
That these people want to peddle there extremist line - fine, let them conduct themselves in a reasonable manner, put their arguments reasonably and, if people don'tr accept them, move on
THIS TROLLING HAS TO STOP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 09:23 AM

" we published the material - we would have checked as we always do" - Jim Carroll

"Checked as you always do" Jom?

You couldn't tell us anything, Regiment or branch of service, location and not a single name. Now then Jom if I had witnessed the "summary execution" of one of my friends in the circumstances described:

1: I would most certainly be able to name the person who had been shot.

2: The person who killed him would be dead within seconds of him doing the deed.

What establishment am I defending? What I am doing is exposing scurrilous lies and challenging idiotic "myths" that seek to blacken the names of the servicemen who volunteered and fought for what they obviously believed in.

Now then Jom if you did check, and if you did read that diary (Or did the grandson just read a single entry from it? - If so how could you check it as you usually do, what form did your checks take? - My take on it is that in both cases you checked damn all)

Rallies, threats of physical harm? Look within the Labour Party and to "Momentum" for those tactics today Jom. Ask Angela Eagle why the Police advised her against holding meetings or constituency surgeries in Wallasey - Bullying, intimidation, threats of violence and homophobic insults against Angela Eagle has resulted in the suspension by Labour of the Wallasey Constituency Labour Party, one man in Scotland was arrested for making death threats against her. What has Der Fuehrer done about it Jom?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:04 AM

your postings have now taken on the nature of stalking

Ah, ha, ha.

If you disagree with me you're a troll.

If you prove me wrong with facts you're a stalker.

Poor, poor pitiful me.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:48 AM

"Your whole story about summary executions is a MYTH - IT NEVER HAPPENED
Prove it"
He we published the material - we would have checked as we always do
You are sill defending establishment shit by calling those who oppose it "Liars" making you the fascist you are.
You link nothing, yo prove nothing - you just continue to make things up and have the arrogance to think people will just believe you
Arguing with you is like having your door kicked in by the Gestapo
Your arrogant bullying is enough to put your arguments where they belong
Go and hold a rally somewhere - I seem to remember the weather is good in Nuremberg this time of year
Go away, you thuggish creep - your postings have now taken on the nature of stalking
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:47 AM

Jim,
Exactly Keith

Exactly what?
What do you mean by "Pro Israeli activists?"
We are talking about prominent, lifelong, respected Labour members.

Ireland has not - you introduced it as an excuse for British fascism.
No. There is no excuse for Fascism but there are small groups in all countries including Ireland.

There were far more fascists in the wartime establishment, all influential in their way,

Not in Britain. Fascists were interned during the war.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:18 AM

Jim Carroll - 13 Aug 16 - 04:04 AM

1: "Point is though Jom - you believe it."

"Point is - I have no reason not to believe it."

Just as when it comes to allegations of racism, intimidation, misogyny existing within the Labour Party under Corbyn I have every reason to believe it. The difference of course being while your beliefs are based on second hand reports of overheard conversations in pubs with nobody identified and nothing corroborated, mine are based upon the findings of not one but two reports, the numerous recommendations and actions, all backed up by concerns voiced by what appears to be an ever increasing number of named sources from within the Labour Party.

I also have every reason to believe in the shot integrity of the second of those reports mentioned above, and in my belief in there having been a cover-up, whitewash and pay-off. The one carried out by Shami Chakrabarti who went from non-party member, independent human rights lawyer to Labour Peer in just 14 weeks after having been given the job. Where you are prepared to accept unsubstantiated rumour, I am not. I also am not a great believer in coincidences.

2: Your whole story about summary executions is a MYTH - IT NEVER HAPPENED - Not one single instance of it ever having happened and believe me if it had it would have been recorded by someone, it would have been talked about. The allegedly "executed" men would have had friends, those who carried out these alleged "executions" would have been identifiable and every single detail would be etched into the memories of any witness. Every single British Soldier executed during the First World War is named, none were subject to summary execution.

Tell me Jom what happened to your tales about men being shot if they didn't get out of their trenches quickly enough?

Your Tommy Kenny Story - "That story was recorded during a three-day session made by me, John Faulkner and Sandra Kerr in 1969 and is lodged in The British Library, with the rest of our collection."

Ever heard the expression "Shit in - Shit out"? You didn't bother to make even the most rudimentary checks on anything the man told you.

3: The "summary executions" argument came from an item posted on the internet by the grandson of a WW1 veteran; it was based on an extract from his grandfather's diary which claimed that there were summary executions taking place during WW1 carried out by specially assigned groups of military police.
Unlike your refusal to provide backing to your claims, I posted the item and gave the link.
My only claim was that, as a similar incident was used during a serial entitled 'The Village', set during W.W.1., the practice was not isolated to the diary extract.

Yet this veteran could not give a name, was he the one doing the shooting perhaps? You gave the link to what? The story of the grandson and the diary entry? That proves absolutely nothing. The IWM has thousands of diaries written by soldiers and guess what Jom, not one single instance of "summary executions" in the British Army. In the records of the Judge Advocates Department there are no mention of "summary executions". In Regimental Records and histories there are no instances of "Summary Executions" having ever taken place.

Not a single soldier in the British Army was executed in the United Kingdom during the First World Was and just because it was shown on a Television Programme does not constitute evidence that it ever happened in real life.

4: "Wrong Shells" Kitchener built the Army and the munitions supply chain that defeated the Germans, David Lloyd George stepped in to take the credit after Kitchener had done the spade work.

5: "I forgot nothing - I posted the link."

Ah you mean just as Keith A did with the "Wheatcroft debacle" that Shaw is always rabbiting on about?

6: The argument was about that antisemitism among establishment figures during the war

What establishment figures? What positions did they hold? In what way did their anti-Semitism manifest itself? You provided details of the names in the "Red Book" numbering some 250 people, all known to the intelligence and security services, in a population of over 47 million. None of those names were in any position of power or influence. Ever come across the concept of perspective Jom?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:18 AM

"- many you have given are from the same source.""
Exactly Keith
My point is that Isral is part of this discussion and Bobad's examples prove that - try to keep up..
"Agreed, but what has that to do with me or this discussion?"
You called me deranged - I gave you an example of your own
Try to keep up.
"You raised the issue of a tiny group within British politics who were pro Nazi."
We are discussing the British Labour party being accused of Antisemitism, which has been expanded to Antisemitism in general
You rant about not discussing Israel on the one hand yet discuss Ireland on the other - one has Israel has reverence to the topic _ Ireland has not - you introduced it as an excuse for British fascism.
I have no objection to discussing anything - you are the one who tries to block discussion - not me.
" of a tiny group within British politics"
There were far more fascists in the wartime establishment, all influential in their way, from monarchs to Newspaper proprietors - that you have been able to prove are in the Labour Party - hasn't stopped your crusade.
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:17 AM

You keep trying to engage me in an anti-Semitism debate don't you. When will you realise I am not playing ball with that.

Your racism however is clear for all to read, you cannot change the things you have posted can you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:54 AM

jim, what do you mean by, "Every exaple Bobad has given is from Pro Israeli activists - many you have given are from the same source."

"Deranged" is fanatically denying atrocities that have been reported from relable sources and have been made accessible to us via the media - you again

Agreed, but what has that to do with me or this discussion?

what the **** are you doing discussing Ireland

You raised the issue of a tiny group within British politics who were pro Nazi.
I responded that every country had such groups and gave Ireland as an example. Now let us all return to the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:48 AM

No Rag.
You either did not read the discussion that led up to my post, or you are just desperately trying to catch me out with something.
The latter I think.

Now what was the racist comment I supposedly made and denied?

You never did explain why failing to recognise a racist comment made you a racist, unless the comment was antisemitic racism because that is "a different argument."
That appears to be antisemitic Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:46 AM

"That is just a deranged conspiracy theory."
Every exaple Bobad has given is from Pro Israeli activists - many you have given are from the same source
Doesn't matter anyway - if we believe there is a connection we are entitled to argue that - any attempt to stop this is suppression of free speech - a habt of yours whenever teh arguments get uncomfortable.
"Deranged" is fanatically denying atrocities that have been reported from relable sources and have been made accessible to us via the media - you again
"The FACT is that IRA supported Nazism and hoped for a Nazi victory, but Irish people did not."
You've just been whingeing about discussing Israel - what the **** are you doing discussing Ireland if we can't discuss Israel?
You are insane!!
I'm happy that Ireland came up as it's exposed Bodad's racism towards the Irish.
Will you7 stop trying to stipulate threads - if you do it again , I'll pull up the dozens of examples of your having done so in the past (when I've finished with your racism and serial lying, that is)
You morons never learn.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:20 AM

A quick backtrack from the professor. I didn't mean that I meant something else. A bit like posting racist comments and then denying they were racist eh professor.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:50 AM

Jim,

Israel is vital to this discussion because it is a widely-held opinion that the accusations of Antisemitism originated from her attempts to block the Boycott of her goods.

No it is not.
That is just a deranged conspiracy theory.
The accusations of antisemitism all came from respected Labour members, not from Mossad secret agents!

Rag,
"The Irish Republicans had no influence on the Irish people"
Classic, absolutely bloody classic.

What do you challenge in that statement?
The FACT is that IRA supported Nazism and hoped for a Nazi victory, but Irish people did not.
Just twenty years after the supposed depredations of the Tans, they flocked in their tens of thousands to fight for Britain.
Those Republicans demonstrably had no influence on the people. Almost none chose to fight for Hitler.

The professor said republicans, not the IRA. The republicans were many and varied and even he should know that.

Silly. The discussion arose from the History Ireland article about IRA support for Nazism and "cleansing" Europe of Jews. The context was clear to evryone except you apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:25 AM

I think everybody here must be fed up with your right wing ranting defence of the State by now and your denigrating British workers, and soldiers and attempting to smear anybody who dares to critics them or disagree with you.
If you have any really evidence of anything you claim and can present it in an articulate and half decent manner, do so
If not - I suggest you just retire and lick your wounds
You are a disgrace and you have nothing to contribute to any decent discussion forum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:06 AM

"Really Jom?? Then name one, just one."
Don't be stupid - the names were posted at the front for the men
Tommy's story is in the BM and on our shelves
I suppose we are going to have a repeat performance of your 'Lying British Tommies in order to preserve the good mane of the establishment'

You have two stories from different sources, one recorded and archived, the other put up on line, which you deliberately joined into one to prove me a liar.
You have denied both - calling me a liar and calling the man who posted his grandfather's diary entry.
Both you have dismissed as lies because they don't suit your flag-wagging obsession.
You are now creating a smoke-screen in order to beat a hasty retreat from your stupid machinations.
All Woodenpecker squirming.
you have never really forgiven me for exposing your Kitchener crap - go
screw yourself you fascist Anglophobe -
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 04:21 AM

"If a push came, they were taken out of confinement, placed in the front line and, if they survived, were later executed, as originally decided.

Their names were posted up announcing their execution - end of story"

Really Jom?? Then name one, just one.

The first part of that is forbidden under the terms of the Army Act - a man under punishment cannot bear arms.

Just more Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit"

Raggy - taken in the context of the discussion, the Irish Republicans being referred to were the members of the IRA doing in the late 1930s what their forebears had done in 1914 - they colluded with the Germans.

I see that that highly organised and extremely efficient political machine known as the Labour Party is still demonstrating what can be achieved under the direction of "The Leader" (That's "Der Fuehrer" in German isn't it?). Apparently they just cannot get round to deciding who is eligible to vote in their forthcoming "leadership" election. All change the "numpties" who coughed up £25 for the privilege have now all been told they cannot vote after having been told earlier in the week that they could. Were I one of them I'd ask for my money back.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 04:04 AM

"Point is though Jom - you believe it."
Point is - I have no reason not to believe it.
"I see your Tommy Kenny story has changed yet again"
No it has not, my Tommy Kenny story is as it was at the beginning
The point here is yu are (deliberately no doubt) confusing two different arguments abut two different incidents.
Tommy Kenny told us of how men fighting on the front "walked away from the noise", were picked up as deserters, tried, sentenced to death and locked away awaiting execution.
If a push came, they were taken out of confinement, placed in the front line and, if they survived, were later executed, as originally decided.
Their names were posted up announcing their execution - end of story
Nothing to do with summary executions whatever.
That story was recorded during a three-day session made by me, John Faulkner and Sandra Kerr in 1969 and is lodged in The British Library, with the rest of our collection.
The "summary executions" argument came from an item posted on the internet by the grandson of a WW1 veteran; it was based on an extract from his grandfather's diary which claimed that there were summary executions taking place during WW1 carried out by specially assigned groups of military police.
Unlike your refusal to provide backing to your claims, I posted the item and gave the link.
My only claim was that, as a similar incident was used during a serial entitled 'The Village', set during W.W.1., the practice was not isolated to the diary extract.
You, of course, described both of these incidents as made up by me (as you do) and appewar not to have deliberately combined them into one to once again discredit the "lying soldiers" who fought in WW1, in order to defend 'Wrong-Shells' Kitchener and his murderous cronies.
"You forgot the bit about the massive amount of information and intelligence being gathered by British Intelligence via ENIGMAW
I forgot nothing - I posted the link.
The argument was about that antisemitism among establishment figures during the war - not the actual ignorance and understandable disbelief that existed at the time.
What all those articles show was the ambivalence shown towards the Jewish refugees by the authorities at the time and the fact that it remains a bone of contention among Jews up to today.
I've argued the same about the Catholic Church and 'Hitler's Pope' who traded Jewish lives for Catholic ones in Italy.
I don't 'make up' anything - I put them up because the ring true - you never give any documented background to any of your claims.
You have never been able to give a false posting I have made or a changed story, unless it was changed on the basis of fresh information supplied during the discussion - not likely with you pair as you don't do that sort of thing.
Now - I suggest you go and check exactly what I have written and if you find any anomolies, you bring them back with links, so I can check.
In the meantime - given the postings on the well-established antisemitism within the ranks of the British 'Great and Good' how about explaining why the 'whingeing Yids' story is in any way implausible and why you are making such a strenuous effort to defend British Fascism.
Then, when you have a few minutes, you might let us have that information on the "serious problem of antisemitism" in the Labour Party - what it is, who are the culprits - where we vcan go to find all about it from the now-leaked' "suppressed report".
Take your time - I've got all day.
"Anglophile" - someone wo hates the British people, like describing them lazy scroungers and spongers - you can throw in describing British industry as "crap" and agreeing to its destruction!!
The British people are great - the people who appoint racists to high office and the scum who support them are the problem.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 04:03 AM

The professor said republicans, not the IRA. The republicans were many and varied and even he should know that.

You can dissemble and prevaricate as much as you wish, as is your want, in your vain attempts to defend the indefensible.

I will remind you of what he typed because it is brilliant

"The Irish Republicans had no influence on the Irish people"

Classic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 02:30 AM

Jim Carroll - 12 Aug 16 - 07:43 PM

"It was an oberheard conversion if you read what was written.
I also said it might have been aaan apocryphal story,"

Point is though Jom - you believe it.

But there again you are prone to believing fairy-stories especially if they are Anglophobic in nature. "Raised on songs and stories" eh? I prefer logical, reasoned and substantiated fact and actual history.

I see your Tommy Kenny story has changed yet again, now you got the myth about summary executions of British soldiers in their trenches by special squads of military policemen from "reading" his diaries, before you heard them directly from the man himself while you were recording him relate his experiences.

Jim Carroll - 12 Aug 16 - 08:10 PM - A couple of points about this contribution of yours Jom:

1: How exactly was Great Britain going to go about saving the Jews of Europe in 1943?

2: Your "cut-n-paste" why did you not put that in the context it was presented in the article you linked to? You forgot the bit about the massive amount of information and intelligence being gathered by British Intelligence via ENIGMA - "In fact, from 1942 on there were no references in the SS and Police decrypts to gassing. Underscoring a seeming disbelief in the reports, mention of German concentration camps in any connection became increasingly scant as the war progressed."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 01:52 AM

Well Raggy think what you like, but as far as debate goes, on any thread where you have attempted to challenge what I have stated this "uneducated" man has run circles round you time and time again.

Raggytash - 12 Aug 16 - 04:56 PM - example of your deliberate tactic of wilfully misunderstanding what has been said or meant. By Irish Republicans Keith A was obviously referring to the militant IRA membership. Now Raggy as you appear to put your opinions forward and present yourself as a keen "expert" who is knowledgeable on all matters related to Irish History, perhaps you can tell us all when it was that being a member of the IRA was illegal in Ireland and then tell us when it became an offence in the United Kingdom (The date for the latter will astonish you). Eamon de Valera was one of the prime movers when it came to "creating" the IRA yet in the 1930s he executed them, interned them without trial, and on the occasions were IRA members were tried they were tried before non-Jury courts. Militant Irish Republicans had very little influence in Ireland in the run up to, and during, the Second World War because the Irish Government of the time deliberately and rigourously suppressed them as their activities if left unchecked could have compromised Irish neutrality and dragged Ireland into the war and any prospect of that absolutely terrified de Valera.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 08:10 PM

"Eleanor Rathbone
Feminist Eleanor Rathbone, elected to parliament as an independent MP in 1929, had long campaigned against injustice. During the 1930s she was one of very few MPs, along with Churchill, who spoke out against the antisemitic policies of the Nazis. She was also violently against appeasement.
During the war, as news of the Holocaust was revealed, Rathbone demanded that the British government take action. During 1943, in answer to a lack of response from the British government she set up 'The National Committee for the Rescue from Nazi Terror'. Despite the organisation's campaigns the government refused to act to save the Jews of Europe.."
http://www.theholocaustexplained.org/ks4/how-did-the-world-respond/how-did-britain-respond/did-britain-do-enough-to-help-the-jews/#.V65g4fkrLIV

"A "massively-detailed" but "little read" study of Britain's wartime intelligence published in 1981, British Intelligence in the Second World War, strongly bolsters the notion that the British did not associate what appeared to be random shootings of Jews with a policy of mass murder. In fact, from 1942 on there were no references in the SS and Police decrypts to gassing. Underscoring a seeming disbelief in the reports, mention of German concentration camps in any connection became increasingly scant as the war progressed. The British did, however, "carefully log" the return of prisoners -- presumably from work details -- to Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Dachau and seven other camps.22"
A logic of disbelief

Reluctance to accept Holocaust refugees
Thanks for the opportunity to put this up, by the way
Do you want any more?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 07:43 PM

" It grew from "one Tory Minister" to "some Tory politicians""
It was an oberheard conversion if you read what was written.
I also said it might have been aaan apocryphal story, but the existent of an active group of Fascists within the upper echelons of the British establishment alongside the fact that the story was common throughout various parts of Britain among people who were living at the time made it quite likely it was true - a far cry from your "it must be true" "fellers in a pub".
I have no idea of the circumstances - it was a common from people who were around
I am fascinated by the effort you are putting into defending State fascism - but not in the least surprised.   
"In the Second World War, Britain was not willing to attempt to rescue the Jews of Europe in any meaningful way. It was not only imperial Realpolitikthat made the British close the gates of Palestine. We know that officials in the Colonial and Foreign offices and people in the administration in Palestine were far from immune to antisemitic sentiment while supporting an Arab state after the 1939 White Paper.
"During the war the British government was obsessed by the fear that their fight against Hitler could be construed as a war on behalf of the Jews. To avoid 'fighting a Jewish war' became a kind of alibi for the British authorities to do almost nothing for the Jews. Britain's solemn commitment to create a Jewish National Home in Palestine was in fact betrayed in the hour of greatest need for European Jewry. This is a serious stain on the British record, which until then had many positive sides."
Jerusalem Centre for Public Affairs
You really are totally unaware of the picture of
thea right-wing moron you are painting of yourself - which makes me delighted to have implicated both of you in all this.
Any word on Labour Party Antisemitism yet (rhetorical question again)
Goosestep on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 04:56 PM

From the professor:

"The Irish Republicans had no influence on the Irish people"

Classic, absolutely bloody classic.

Well worth remembering that wonderful contribution ! !

Well done professor you keep coming up with them ! ! !

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 04:51 PM

I realise that you are not an educated man Teri but I would have supposed even someone of your limited intelligence could perceive what an oxymoron is when you saw one.

I, perhaps, am being a little generous in giving you the credence to understanding what an oxymoron actually is.

Ah well, that's the problem of dealing with the such people.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 04:04 PM

You originally stated,

"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."

Change 1: It grew from "one Tory Minister" to "some Tory politicians"

Change 2: That you were told this in three separate cities

Yet out of all this gabbing about anti-semitic Tory Ministers there are no direct quotes and nobody can identify the source of this alleged comment.

The population of the United Kingdom in 1939 was ~47 million and so far you have the Red Book crowd of ~250 people who had prior to the commencement of hostilities had voiced support for Hitler. Lord Rothermere the newspaper owner you keep harping on about died in 1940 and handed over the newspaper to his son in 1932.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 01:20 PM

"Jim, there were Fascist supporters in every country."
And I have no doubt you would defend them all if you were called upon to do so
Wonder how many moronic defence is that Keith - he did it sir, so it must be ok if I do it
Don't be a prick all your life.
"The Irish Republicans had no influence on the Irish people"
Sorry - what planet are we on now?
Who on earth suggested they did - forgotten your meds again?
"Those few Tories had no influence here."
So - they would have done if Germany had won the war - as it possibly could have.
This argument has no place here
You trivialised the persecution, later to turn into extermination, of the Jewish People by comparing offensive Antisemitism to the theme song of a sit-com - you apparently don't rate such stuff as important - which I already had guessed.
You lied about having done so - fine again - it's what we've come to expect from you.
World War Two is extremely relevent, for it provides us with a perfect example of the consequence of your 'Dad's Army' trivialisation.
Israel is vital to this discussion because it is a widely-held opinion that the accusations of Antisemitism originated from her attempts to block the Boycott of her goods.
I do hope you're not going to drift into your "Thread-drift" mode again - you've been warned about that on numerous occasions "
This really would never have happened if you hadn't called somebody a liar and a racist.
You are both, and if you do it again I'll dredge up some more of your lies and racism.
Now why not bite the bullet and put your mask back on and pretend it awas all a bad dream!!
You are an incredibly stupid little man to provoke these incidents
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 12:52 PM

Jim, there were Fascist supporters in every country.
The Irish Republicans had no influence on the Irish people. Very few fought for Hitler but tens of thousands crossed to Britain and joined up.
Those few Tories had no influence here. The government chose to go to war against Hitler and the people supported them.

Now, we were discussing Labour's problems until you dredged up WW2 having already dredged up Israel and much else as you always do when losing an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 12:42 PM

" well it must have been three pubs if the latest version of your story is to be believed -"
are you actually going to prove I have in any way altered what I originally said or do you intend to continue to display your inferiority by lying in your teeth?
Just curious
I ask again, why are you so keen to disprove this story (and humiliate yourself at the same time) when the existence of pro - Nazis in Westminster is proven fact - is the 'good name' of a couple of establishment fascists really worth all the puff and bluster.
"But like the scurrilous story of the summary executions your little class-warrior mentality"
You were directly linked to that particular "scurrilous little story" - bur as always, you know better.
It came from a diary entry of one of those "lying" Tommies and was put up by his grandson.
Couldn't have been true - didn't fit in your claim of all those magnificent leaders (like 'Wrong-Shell' Kitchener) who sent a generation of young men to their deaths.
Your inferiority - like Pinocchio's nose, continues to grow each time you post.
You've moved on from being a pompous blow-hard to joining the other pair of trolls under their bridge
Your 'arguments' are little more than vituperative hate mail now - but please continue to "huff and to puff' and see what house you can blow down between you.
BUT PLEASE FEEL FREE TO KEEP IT UP
How about that evidence of Labour antisemitism - you know, numbers and examples - any joy yet?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 12:24 PM

"So there you go - the last "blatant, organized anti-Semitic incident in modern Irish history" took place under British rule."

And the 1904 Limerick Pogram, was organised and fomented by Fr John Creagh and his parishioners, NOTHING whatsoever to do with British Rule, more to do with mob rule under the direction of the Church. The RIC did their utmost to protect lives and property.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 11:57 AM

"I have never said it "must be true" - says Jom

Ah Jom, so are you saying that somebody (A bloke in a Pub - well it must have been three pubs if the latest version of your story is to be believed - three different blokes? Or have you got a "Stalker"?) told you the tale and that you do not necessarily believe it? In which case why mention it at all if you think it false? Passing on information you know, or believe, to be false - isn't that lying?

But like the scurrilous story of the summary executions your little class-warrior mentality and rabid anglophobia jumped at the lie and you swallowed it "hook-line-and-sinker" just like you swallowed this fable about "your" Tory Minister (The one nobody could name), that then changed to Tory Politicians (Oddly enough none of them could be named or identified either).

Raggytash - 12 Aug 16 - 10:46 AM

Good heavens Raggy, being "picky" again, your trouble is that you have no sense of scope and absolutely no imagination at all. Do you really mean to tell me that under no circumstances at all could it be possible for the situation described to ever happen? (I'll give you a hint Raggy - it was how the British gained their Empire)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 11:42 AM

For your information - ftom the
From the TIMES of ISRAEL
"The Limerick community dissipated after the so-called Limerick Pogrom in 1904, essentially an anti-Jewish economic boycott rather than a physical attack. It was the only blatant, organized anti-Semitic incident in modern Irish history."
So there you go - the last "blatant, organized anti-Semitic incident in modern Irish history" took place under British rule.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 11:30 AM

How on earth does the IRA's attitude excuse your lying antisemitic behaviour here - who the **** supports the IRA?
Do you really believe everybody who lives in Ireland is an IRA supporter?
Bet you have every bit as much evidence as you have for your "brainwashed Irish children" claim.
"The Irish as Nazi supporters and haters of Jews."
Anti-Irish as wel as Antisemitic my little kapo friend
ice to see your loyalty in joining up with somebody who trivialises the Holocaust though - that's real dedication to the cause!!
Bottom-of-the-barrel time folks - all else has run into a blank wall.
For your info - in general, Ireland is one of the mostw welcome countries towards strangers that I've ever been in - beats London's record hands down.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 10:46 AM

"putting Irish people out of work but also exploiting those that they employed"

So which was it, putting people out of work or employing them.


Bit of an oxymoron that not surprisingly.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 10:08 AM

The Irish as Nazi supporters and haters of Jews.........nah!