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BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

Steve Shaw 12 Mar 17 - 07:47 PM
Greg F. 12 Mar 17 - 07:55 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 17 - 08:20 PM
Teribus 12 Mar 17 - 08:51 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 17 - 09:08 PM
Teribus 13 Mar 17 - 02:57 AM
Teribus 13 Mar 17 - 04:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Mar 17 - 04:44 AM
David Carter (UK) 13 Mar 17 - 04:51 AM
Raggytash 13 Mar 17 - 05:28 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 17 - 06:19 AM
Teribus 13 Mar 17 - 06:33 AM
Teribus 13 Mar 17 - 06:34 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 17 - 06:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Mar 17 - 06:48 AM
Raggytash 13 Mar 17 - 06:51 AM
Teribus 13 Mar 17 - 06:59 AM
David Carter (UK) 13 Mar 17 - 07:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Mar 17 - 07:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Mar 17 - 07:22 AM
Teribus 13 Mar 17 - 07:38 AM
bobad 13 Mar 17 - 07:55 AM
Raggytash 13 Mar 17 - 08:29 AM
akenaton 13 Mar 17 - 09:16 AM
Raggytash 13 Mar 17 - 09:25 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 17 - 09:29 AM
bobad 13 Mar 17 - 10:01 AM
Raggytash 13 Mar 17 - 10:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Mar 17 - 10:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 17 - 10:48 AM
Raggytash 13 Mar 17 - 10:50 AM
bobad 13 Mar 17 - 10:05 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 17 - 12:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 17 - 12:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 17 - 12:40 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 17 - 01:47 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 17 - 01:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 17 - 01:57 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 17 - 02:04 PM
Iains 13 Mar 17 - 03:44 PM
bobad 13 Mar 17 - 03:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Mar 17 - 04:31 PM
bobad 13 Mar 17 - 04:38 PM
Iains 13 Mar 17 - 05:05 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 17 - 05:06 PM
Teribus 13 Mar 17 - 06:46 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 17 - 07:10 PM
Teribus 14 Mar 17 - 02:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 17 - 02:46 AM
akenaton 14 Mar 17 - 03:07 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 07:47 PM

We don't do belief, Teribus. We prefer evidence. Until that arrives, we suspect that boobs is making baseless assertions. I'm sure you'd agree that, if he makes the charge, it's down to him to produce the evidence. If I tell you that a chocolate teapot is in orbit round Mars, it's down to me to provide the evidence, not for you to refute it. Geddit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 07:55 PM

Evidence? EVIDENCE???

We don't got to show you no steenkin' EVIDENCE!

These are Trumpists we're dealing with, Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 08:20 PM

No worries, Greg. These people are easy to deal with. When their backs are to the wall they deliberately miss the point. If you don't believe me, just watch Teribus's next post! 😂

Damn fine pasta bake tonight. Home-made tomato sauce with white onion, chilli and basil. No bloody garlic. Layered with orecchiette pasta, masses of shredded mozzarella and loads of parmigiano reggiano. Parmesan to the non-in-crowd. I'll live forever. Washed down gorgeously with Nero d'Avola. I was in Avola last September, beautiful Sicilian town. Jaysus, the romance! Pasta con le sarde on the menu this week. See Sicily then die!


[You're OK, the Mafia don't let their guys bother tourists - they need our money too much!]


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 08:51 PM

Steve Shaw - 12 Mar 17 - 07:47 PM

"We don't do belief, Teribus. We prefer evidence."


There's that "WE" again non-gang member.

If that indeed was the case Shaw all would be well and good, but the fact is you never do bring any evidence to back up anything you say including your baseless accusations and allegations, in fact you are down on record as stating that it was not needed - So - Are you lying again Shaw?

Your pal Greg F states succinctly how you and your little gang approach things beautifully.

FBI figures state that the rise in anti-Islamic hate crimes has been something in the order of 67% up from 154 reported instances to 257 - Meanwhile anti-Semitic hate crimes rose by 9% in the same period to 664 reported incidents. UK statistics are worse - look them up Huffington Post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 09:08 PM

Stick to the point. You are defending bobad's allegation that "Jews are targeted more than all other religious groups combined in most of the western world today." Do you agree with that? YES OR NO, Teribus? I have severe doubts. As such, I want the figures. Do you have them? Can you get them from bobad? YES OR NO, Teribus? You routinely accuse your adversaries of baseless assertions. Can you support bobad's assertion with numbers? YES OR NO, Teribus?? No mucking about now! Deliver, Teribus!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 02:57 AM

Having looked at the USA, UK, EU and in Russia the numbers seem to support what bobad stated. I couldn't give a toss what you might think or believe, your ideology, like most "liberal socialists" blinds you to reality. Should I go through the list and document each country by country? Nope, as you have stated your position you wouldn't accept any substantive evidence from any source, so why should I bother?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 04:03 AM

PS Shaw - If indeed you do want figures (Which I very much doubt) look them up for yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 04:44 AM

I quite like this game, Steve. It means you can make any assertion you like and it is up to other people to disprove it. I could say, for instance, that Teribus once showed his arse off Blackpool Tower and 14 old ladies fainted in horror. It would then be true until proven otherwise. Not that I would do a thing like that of course because, as we all know, it would be stupid.

Now, tell me more about this flying chocolate teapot.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 04:51 AM

You havn't looked at India though have you, Teribus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 05:28 AM

Can't say I recall ever discussing hate crimes in the USA.

The FBI "figures" you do provide cannot be put into context as we don't know the numbers of Islamic or Jewish people in the States.

If the population of Jewish people were 665 and 664 reported hate crime against themselves that would be a highly significant figure, If there were 6.64 million Jewish people that figure of reported hate crime becomes less significant.

That figure could also be distorted by one person making a high number of reports.

So many variables, none of which Bobad cites.

I don't know about anyone else but I would consider that Bobad has an axe to grind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 06:19 AM

This is pure comedy. The point is about backing up the assertion thst bobad made, not about my ideology or anything else. As a matter of fact, irrelevant though it is to the point, I have no axe to grind at all over the targeting of one religious group over another. It's all equally disgusting. I see that you've gone from unqualified support to "seeming" to support. His assertion was a matter of quantity. You make assertions of that nature if you have the numbers to back them. So where are the numbers?


And did you really show your arse to old ladies off Blackpool Tower? Bloody nippy up there. Can't think of a quicker way of exacerbating the piles,,...


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 06:33 AM

Dave the Gnome - 13 Mar 17 - 04:44 AM

"I quite like this game, Steve. It means you can make any assertion you like and it is up to other people to disprove it."


We all know that you like the game Gnome, you and your pals have been playing it for years and so far on so many threads that is exactly what the likes #, Lighter, Iains, Akenaton, bobad, Stanron, Keith A of Hertford and myself have done. In doing so we have exposed your dearly held myths, half-truths and misrepresentations. We have also exposed a number of your lot as liars and dissemblers, with the result that all that you are left with is to waffle on inanely about anything that comes to mind provided that it is as far from the subject under discussion as possible. Please do keep it up, it lets everyone know that you have run out of argument and steam - best you go look out one of your Hawaiian shirts, get on your bike and peddle down to the pub smelling wild flowers on the way - might require a "Wide Load" escort though which must detract a little from the pleasure of it.

By the way Gnome the incident you mention might have been that time in the summer of '75, I could send you a glossy 10x8 of it if you like. You'd recognise it immediately as it would bear a striking resemblance to what you see every time you look into a mirror.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 06:34 AM

When did India become part of "the western world" Mr Carter (UK)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 06:41 AM

The numbers, please. "Jews are targeted more than all other religious groups combined in most of the western world today." That's what you supported. Well support it with numbers. You or bobad, I don't care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 06:48 AM

Not bad Teribus - Bit more imagination there. Keep it up and people may think, eventually, that you are not as bad as you seem :-)

So, as you are now supporting the act of posting unsupported assertions and expecting people to disprove them I suppose you are also saying it is OK for anyone to do it. Or is it only unsupported assertions that you and your mates make that are allowed?

Just wondering like.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 06:51 AM

So there we have it.

An admission of guilt.

Terrikins did moon at 14 old ladies in Blackpool.

Remember folks you read it here first.

Cheers Teri, you have brightened up my morning.

Off on my travels later so won't be here as much (I'm know that will please you Teriblossom so there's no need to respond)


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 06:59 AM

No Gnome just exposing you lot for the lying hypocrites that you undoubtedly are. As always with your brand of "socialism" one law applies to you and your pals while all others are held to a far more stringent standard - it is the only way you can enter any discussion, however when confronted, like all bullies, you turn and run.

Keep those hairy little fat knees of yours pumping away Gnome and remember to wear your hat - don't want to dazzle oncoming traffic do we Gnome? Mind your specs don't fog up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 07:03 AM

When it was colonised by the British, Teribus. Its certainly as much Western world as Russia which you seem to be including.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 07:18 AM

So, in the words of your mate Keith then, Teribus, come up with some of these lies I have told and hypocrisies I have committed.

Slipped back into poor cliches with insults I'm afraid. You really do need to work harder at it. As to bullies - I find the best way to deal with them is take the piss. You don't like it much do you?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 07:22 AM

I always like the words attributed to Mahatma Gandi, David. When asked what he thought of Western civilisation he replied that it would be a good idea :-) I suspect it is an urban myth but would love it to be true.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 07:38 AM

Mr Carter, I would suggest that you look up what is involved in "colonising" any lump of land. You could then tell me how a country of less than 18 million people could "colonise" a massive land mass inhabited by over 350 million people. On the particular subject of "India" it did not become a country until 1947 prior to that it consisted of areas directly administered by the United Kingdom, which were collectively called British India, and those ruled by indigenous rulers, but under British tutelage or paramountcy, and called the princely states - India was NEVER a British colony, between 1600 and 1858 the British Government only interest in India was supporting any policy that ensured the best interests of the Honourable East India Company (A trading organisation). It was only after the Indian Mutiny of 1857 that the British Government stepped in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 07:55 AM

Of the 1,402 victims of anti-religious hate crimes:

    52.1 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders' anti-Jewish bias.

    21.9 percent were victims of anti-Islamic (Muslim) bias.

    4.3 percent were victims of anti-Catholic bias.

    4.1 percent were victims of bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group).

    3.6 percent were victims of anti-Eastern Orthodox (Russian, Greek, Other) bias.

    3.4 percent were victims of anti-Protestant bias.

    1.3 percent were victims of anti-Other Christian bias.

    0.6 percent were victims of anti-Mormon bias.

    0.4 percent were victims of anti-Hindu bias.

    0.4 percent were victims of anti-Sikh bias.

    0.1 percent were victims of anti-Jehovah's Witness bias.

    0.1 percent were victims of anti-Buddhist bias.

    0.1 percent were victims of anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.

    7.6 percent were victims of bias against other religions (anti-other religion).

Source: FBI 2015 Hate Crime Statistics

The numbers for Canada and the EU are very similar if not worse - look them up if you dare.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 08:29 AM

Interesting figures.

To put them in context we need to understand that the population of the USA is in excess of 300,000,000.

There were 1354 reported hate crimes according to the FBI figures.

I am NOT suggesting those crimes should be overlooked but in the great scheme of things they are rare.

You have a reasonable chance of being struck by lightening in the USA 267 per annum on average.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 09:16 AM

"By the way Gnome the incident you mention might have been that time in the summer of '75, I could send you a glossy 10x8 of it if you like. You'd recognise it immediately as it would bear a striking resemblance to what you see every time you look into a mirror. "

:0)....Brilliant! The biter bit I think!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 09:25 AM

Ah Terikins coming out as the phantom flasher

Who is he, don't know
is he here, probably
think I see him sitting next to you
the famous phantom flasher

(from the singing of Gary & Vera Aspey)

Don't know about biter bit, foot in mouth springs to mind more readily.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 09:29 AM

"Interesting figures."
Totally impossible to calculate as Israel has declared that 'New Antisemitism' is opposition to the State of Israel and is regarding all criticism of Israeli policy as "opposition", which it is not.
The main victims of Israel's redefinition of antisemitism are the Jewish people who are blamed indirectly by Israelis for their ethnic cleansing policy - that is the inevitable result of claiming all criticism of its policies are "antisemitic".
The few details of Labour so-called antisemitism that have emerged ar criticism of Israel and not the Jews.
Of course, it would be helpful if some self-described supporters of the Jewish People didn't invent Parliamentary pacts of silence (the classic antisemitic slur, dating back to the Nazis is "a Jewish Plot")
It would also helpp if hypocrites who go ballistic at ny criticism of Israel, had the balls to condemn such 'Jewish pacts of silence' despite the fact that the culprit is one of his gang
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 10:01 AM

On the left, black people are usually allowed to define what's racism; women can define sexism; Muslims are trusted to define Islamophobia. But when Jews call out something as antisemitic, leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 10:19 AM

Bobad, Even using your figures, the chances of someone of the Jewish faith being the victim of a hate crime, is approximately one in five hundred thousand.

Whilst not seeking to condone such crime we do need to get things in perspective that is one in half a million.

Good grief you have far more chance of being shot in the States.

Bet you support the gun lobby.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 10:27 AM

No, fair's fair, Raggy. Teribus did try a bit of banter and it was a bit better than his usual feeble attempts. Still not original but better all the same. The fact that ake likes it makes me think it should probably be downgraded from a 4/10 back to a 2/10 though.

Sorry Teribus. Your second mate has let you down again.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 10:48 AM

Jim,
Totally impossible to calculate as Israel has declared that 'New Antisemitism' is opposition to the State of Israel and is regarding all criticism of Israeli policy as "opposition", which it is not.

We were discussing incidents of hate crime, so your claim is irrelevant as well as being completely false.

The few details of Labour so-called antisemitism that have emerged ar criticism of Israel and not the Jews.

Not true.

some self-described supporters of the Jewish People didn't invent Parliamentary pacts of silence

They didn't.

It would also helpp if hypocrites who go ballistic at ny criticism of Israel, had the balls to condemn such 'Jewish pacts of silence' despite the fact that the culprit is one of his gang

No-one here are "hypocrites who go ballistic at ny criticism of Israel.
No-one but you has ever suggested a "Jewish pact of silence" and I regard it, like you comparing of Israel to Nazi Germany, as anti-Semitic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 10:50 AM

You are quite right, the bit of light hearted banter is very welcome.


The only problem is I now have a picture of a him mooning with his Union Flag Y fronts round his knees. Not a pleasant vista.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 10:05 AM

From The New York Times Opinion Section: "America is now governed by a president and party that fundamentally don't accept the idea that there are objective facts. Instead, they want everyone to accept that reality is whatever they say it is."

Much like Shaw's "we", wot!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 12:12 PM

"We were discussing incidents of hate crime, so your claim is irrelevant as well as being completely false."
As no crime has ben specified, we are discussing unqualified accusations of anti-Semitism.
"Not true."
How do you know if they are not described?
"They didn't. "
You did and you may add it to your list of things you have said and are now denying
"No-one here are "hypocrites who go ballistic at ny criticism of Israel."
Again - you did and you accused them of refusing to describe the anti-Semitism that was supposed to have taking place
"and I regard it, like you comparing of Israel to Nazi Germany, as anti-Semitic."
may Jewish critics have said exactly th same thing - including ex leaders of the Security forces.
Israel has torn up any workable definition of the term and has adopted the anti-Semitic defence of using the Jewish people as human shields so it doesn't have to answer for its war crimes.
We really are finished with this denying what you have written Keith - you wrote all the things I have accused you of and I've reproduced them over and over again.
Your persistent lying has no place here.
By the way - Bobad is a hypocrite because he knows what you said about the Jewish Parliamentarians and he doesn't even have the bottle to condemn it.
He would have denied that you said it ifhe believed that to be the case - he's had moths of opportunity to do so
So much for his defence of the Jewish People !!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 12:27 PM

Jim,
As no crime has ben specified, we are discussing unqualified accusations of anti-Semitism.

No Jim. What was being discussed was the number of hate crimes against Jews compared to other hate crimes.

"Not true."
How do you know if they are not described?


You claimed that "The few details of Labour so-called antisemitism that have emerged ar criticism of Israel and not the Jews."

That is not true.
Guardian last week,
"Walker was suspended by Labour in September after she questioned why Holocaust Memorial Day did not recognise other genocides, even though the day is set up to commemorate other atrocities, including those in Rwanda and Bosnia. "
"Walker, who was removed from her position in Momentum, also said she was concerned about definitions of antisemitism used by the party, saying she had not seen a definition she could "work with".
The long-time activist had previously been suspended from the party after she wrote on Facebook that Jewish people had been "the chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade". She was later reinstated."

"Ken Livingstone, the former mayor of London who was suspended last summer for comments that Adolf Hitler had been a Zionist, was referred to the NCC earlier this year"

" Marc Wadsworth, a party activist who, at the launch of a report into Labour and antisemitism, challenged Jewish Labour MP Ruth Smeeth that she was working "hand in hand" with the media."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/07/labour-members-may-be-expelled-over-claims-of-antisemitism-and-bullying


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 12:40 PM

Jim,
You did and you may add it to your list of things you have said and are now denying

Again you did


There you go again Jim!
If you want to accuse me of saying something, QUOTE ME.

What you do is give your interpretation of what I said, which I always deny because it is completely false.

If I really said such nonsense QUOTE ME DOING IT!!

Israel has torn up any workable definition of the term

Who cares how Israel defines it.
Britain and other democracies have adopted a sensible definition.
It may not suit you but you will have to get used to it.

Bobad is a hypocrite because he knows what you said about the Jewish Parliamentarians and he doesn't even have the bottle to condemn it.

That is because I said nothing that anyone could object to Jim.
You lied about me again because that is the only way you can pursue your deranged vendetta against me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 01:47 PM

Any moron can just go on denying Keith
You are beyond a joke
I've quoted yuo until I could memorize everything you've ever written
Deny this and you are a liar
You have - you are a liar Keith
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 01:47 PM

Any moron can just go on denying Keith
You are beyond a joke
I've quoted yuo until I could memorize everything you've ever written
Deny this and you are a liar
You have - you are a liar Keith
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 01:57 PM

If I really ever said such nonsense QUOTE ME DOING IT!

You would if you could, liar.
Only by lying can you pursue your deranged vendetta.
It is a kind of madness Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 02:04 PM

We've had an awful lot lot of bluster and changing the subject and attack as defence here. So a reminder. This is what was said:

"Jews are targeted more than all other religious groups combined in most of the western world today."

In spite of several requests for the numbers to support this,all we've had is a list containing a relatively extremely tiny number of unspecified religious-based hate crimes from one huge western country. A five-second geography lesson for bobad and Teribus: the US is not "most of the western world." We have also been dared to do the research that bobad and Teribus clearly haven't done. On top of that we have been treated to the usual tirade of diversions and insults for being so bold as to ask for verification. I've lost count of the number of times that Teribus has accused other people of making "baseless assertions," etc. (generally unjustified, but hey ho). Well if you routinely want your way clear to make these allegations against others, you'd better be squeaky clean yourself. I don't know whether the assertion about these hate crimes is true or not and it isn't a fight in which I have a dog. So I ask again. Where are the numbers that support the assertion? The ones so far on offer are not only vague and unspecified (what kinds of hate crimes, for example?), they are tiny in number considering the population of the one country in question, so they do not in any way satisfy the assertion. Apologies for valiantly sticking to the point. It would be nice if it became more of a trend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Iains
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 03:44 PM

" Apologies for valiantly sticking to the point. It would be nice if it became more of a trend."

If you think it would be nice to stick to the point why babble on about weeds, bike rides, cheap wine deals at Tesco's etc. etc. Nice if everyone else stuck to the thread but apparently you retain the right to wreck it by deliberate sabotage. If you like the idea of sticking to the thread, what perversity drives you to do the opposite? and how do you expect sticking to the point to become a trend, bearing in mind the pathetic example you set?

Everyone can accept a degree of drift in a thread.Your version of drift is a massacre.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 03:57 PM

Number of police-reported hate crimes motivated by religion, Canada, 2013


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 04:31 PM

So, Iains, who determines what is thread drift and what is valid in terms of the thread topic. Certainly not the likes of me or or you. A thread often oscillates back and forth between the sublime and the ridiculous. The rule on moderation here is as little as possible. It is only when things get seriously nasty that threads get closed and posts get deleted. There is certainly nothing remotely nasty in anything about flowers or wine or scenery. There has been a lot of nastiness from some and some tongue in cheek banter between all parties. You have no right whatsoever to try to define the rules of what can and cannot be posted. If you have any complaints you can always ask the moderators to delete any nastiness. Deleting off topic posts on any thread would be a nightmare that I do not think anyone would willingly get involved in though.

In my opinion

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 04:38 PM

Attacks against Jews continue to occur significantly more frequently than attacks against Muslims. The evidence produced through police reports on hate crimes and studies by anti-hate organizations show that in North America, Europe and Australia the most frequent targets of abuse and violence on account of religious affiliation continue to be Jews.

The four countries with the highest numbers of Jews, outside of Israel, are the United States, France, Canada and Britain.

In the United States, the FBI collects and analyses hate crime statistics across the nation. For the eleven years from 2004 to 2014, anti-Jewish hate crimes constituted between 58% and 70% of all hate crimes in the U.S. in the "Religion" category. By comparison, in the same period, anti-Muslim hate crimes in the U.S. constituted between 7-16% of the total in that category. It follows that in the United States, a Jew is six times more likely to be attacked than a Muslim, despite the fact that American Jews outnumber Muslims by only two to one.

In France, 50% of racist attacks are against Jews. The remaining 50% of racist attacks are spread over other groups including Africans, Arabs, Asians, Muslims, Roma and others. In France, where Muslims currently outnumber Jews by about ten to one, the number of attacks against Jews is nevertheless much higher than against Muslims.

In Canada, the Ontario Human Rights Commission reported that in 2009, of all religion-based hate crimes in the country, 70% were committed against Jews. In 2010, more than 50% were against Jews, and 26% were against Muslims. Muslims outnumber Jews in Canada by about three to one.

In Britain, the Metropolitan Police Service database on hate crimes in London showed a rise in both anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim incidents for the twelve month period from July 2014 to July 2015. Anti-Jewish incidents increased by 93% and anti-Muslim incidents by 70%. During this period, the number of offences against Muslims rose from 478 to 816, and against Jews from 258 attacks to 499. There was one anti-Jewish attack for every 601 Jews, and one anti-Muslim attack for every 3,676 Muslims. There are approximately 300,000 Jews and 3 million Muslims in the UK. Yet a Jew is four times more likely to be attacked than a Muslim. Of concern, was the British media's skewed coverage of these statistics – headlining the rise in anti-Muslim incidents, but minimising the far greater rise in anti-Jewish incidents.

In Australia, over the twelve month period from September 2014 to September 2015, the Executive Council of Australian Jewry (ECAJ) reported 190 anti-Jewish incidents, and the Islamophobia Register Australia (IRA) reported 280 anti-Muslim incidents. However, over half (55%) of the incidents in the IRA report are online content, including posted comments on social media. The ECAJ report, based on Australian Human Rights Commission criteria, records general expressions of hatred against the group (in the traditional media or online) separately, and not as "incidents." Only clear cases of person-on-person hate communications are included as incidents.

To compare like with like, it is instructive to extract from the ECAJ and IRA statistics the number of incidents affecting each community which involve physical abuse (including assaults, apprehended violence and damage to property) and person-on-person verbal abuse. For the twelve month period from September 2014 to September 2015, there were 128 anti-Muslim incidents and 180 anti-Jewish incidents in these categories

The Jewish community is the only community within Australia whose places of worship, schools, communal organisations and community centres need, for security reasons, to operate under the protection of high fences, armed guards, metal detectors, CCTV cameras and the like. The necessity is recognised by Australia's law enforcement agencies and arises from the high incidence of physical attacks against Jews and Jewish communal buildings over the last three decades, and continuing threats.

All the evidence, from the police services of European countries to the American FBI, and others who monitor hate incidents, shows that antisemitism remains the most enduring and deep-seated form of group hatred. In the last 25 years, antisemitic incidents have become increasingly frequent, violent and murderous, especially in the traditional heartland of antisemitism – Europe.

Yet in the face of clear evidence to the contrary, the inane proposition that "Islamophobia is the new antisemitism" continues to enjoy currency in some circles – including among people who should know better.


http://jewsdownunder.com/2016/08/05/statistics-prove-islamophobia-isnt-new-antisemitism/


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Iains
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 05:05 PM

Dthe G. Not only do you have problems achieving clarity of meaning when posting but apparently problems of comprehension as well. I make the point that for a person to propose one set of actions when repeatedly actioning the opposite is a little perverse to say the least.
I cannot imagine where you conjured up the rest of your little diatribe from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 05:06 PM

Iains. This was a head-to-head with Teribus. Nothing to do with you. He supports bobad's assertion. I ask for numbers. They are not forthcoming. Teribus or bobad could have drifted off into wild flowers, etc., but they decided to take me on (with all the usual insults and diversions). I'm really glad that my straying into wild flowers annoys you. Take a tip: annoy me back and try it for yourself. In fact, as you never have anything else useful to offer, I recommend it to you. Now here I go again wasting time on you.

You're trying hard, bobad. But which of these crimes against Jews were driven by religion? That's what you said.   I've already pointed out that you have failed to specify. It's a complicated matter, innit? What were the crimes exactly? Were they all prosecuted to conviction or were some of them unresolved complaints? And what about the rest of the western world? I want the numbers, not percentages of what I already suspect (from your US statistics) to be tiny numbers of reported crimes. You don't really get this, do you? We want to know how serious this issue is. Good point from Dave about the comparison with US gun crime, and Raggytash's comparison with the likelihood of being struck by lightning, You could well be right. But, knowing how you've vastly over-inflated Labour's "serious antisemitism problem," you'll have to forgive me for being somewhat sceptical. So I want numbers and I want details. You made the claim. Surely you have the facts. So let's have 'em, preferably without the drip-feeding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 06:46 PM

Shaw, Iains is doing a great job in exposing your posturing hypocrisy - one rule for your lot and everybody else has to comply with whatever rules you want to set.

How dare you come out with such crap as:

1: We have also been dared to do the research that bobad and Teribus clearly haven't done.

Well I have done the research Shaw - Why haven't you? Are you afraid that you will actually learn something? Or are you just simply incapable of doing it? Any idea of the number in thousands of Jews who have fled France in the last 12 months Shaw? Go on Shaw just take a look, just for once do some work yourself.

2: On top of that we have been treated to the usual tirade of diversions and insults for being so bold as to ask for verification.

Oh you mean like wild flowers, wild garlic, beer, bikes, hill walking, recipes, super-market deals and cafes?

3: I've lost count of the number of times that Teribus has accused other people of making "baseless assertions," etc. (generally unjustified, but hey ho).

So far everything that Keith A of Hertford has been accused of has been baseless - he has asked repeatedly for examples - and answer got he none. Same with Akenaton, same with Iains, same with me. But in recent exchanges I managed to show quite clearly that you were a stalker, a troll and a liar.

A "head to head" with Teribus Shaw? Bobad made a statement that I examined and found that the figures and percentages supported what he claimed. As such I do not have to justify or prove anything to you. If you wish to challenge what was said then figuratively get off your lard arse and do some work yourself

4: Best for last - Apologies for valiantly sticking to the point. It would be nice if it became more of a trend. - Coming from you of all people Priceless, absolutely priceless

Spouting such rubbish as this you are becoming an embarrassment even to your pals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 07:10 PM

Teribus, bobad made the assertion that "Jews are targeted more than all other religious groups combined in most of the western world today." You fully supported that statement. Well so far all I've managed to squeeze out of both of you is some information about the US that listed a pretty tiny number of alleged hate crimes that failed to specify what kinds of crimes they were, whether they were in fact religion-based at all and what proportion of them were ever prosecuted leading to conviction. Then we have some slightly better information from an Australian website but which still did not specify how the alleged crimes were delineated and which still did not provide the information needed to confirm that the crimes outnumbered all those against other religious groups combined in most of the western world. I'm a patient man and I don't mind trying time and again to get you to focus on a matter that you have championed. I am interested to hear from you that you can confirm the matter. It won't disadvantage me in any way if you prove to be correct and it will inform further debate. It's a pity that you can only resort to bluster, sidetracking and offensive comment. You must think that the people on this forum are all idiots. Well some of us can focus and see right through you. Try focussing yourself. You'll do your shattered reputation a power of good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 02:30 AM

"Jews are targeted more than all other religious groups combined in most of the western world today." - bobad

I believe that statement to be correct - Teribus

USA:
Anti-Semitic attacks = 52.1% of all reported religious hate crimes
All other combined = 47.9%
Statement made by bobad IS supported wrt the USA

Anyone who disbelieves and disagrees with bobad's statement is perfectly free to come up with figures and statistics to counter that claim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 02:46 AM

Not only do you have problems achieving clarity of meaning when posting but apparently problems of comprehension as well.

Well, Iains, as you will have seen I often use the phrase

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

It explains a lot of the communications issues here. Unlike you however I fully understand that communication is a two way issue and if I either fail to understand something or fail to make something clear I know that I am partially at fault. You, on the other hand, appear to be arrogant enough to believe that you will always understand everything and always make everything clear. Let me put you straight on that. You don't.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:07 AM

On the subject of "off topic", of course some threads veer off on to other matters, that is usually natural progression in discussion, but Stevie has stated repeatedly that "we", meaning him and his playmates are employing this tactic deliberately in an attempt to "piss off" other members, have threads closed or cause people they do not "like" to leave the forum permanently.

This would seem to be a gross contravention of forum rules regarding moderation, but Stevieboy has latched on to the idea that this section is no longer being moderated, so the children are taking full advantage.
This is a difficult situation to rectify, as we don't want to go back to the wholesale removal of posts or complete threads without explanation.


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