BS: Should foxhunting be banned?

Subject: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:12 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:17 AM

Yes.........It should be banned for all Gay, Islamic, pilots........Also possibly from Scotsmen who have been living in the states too long.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:21 AM

Can you eat foxes?

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:24 AM

Spaw, may I reminf you that the United States is a litigious society in which legal actions may be instigated for the merest trifle, and as I have experienced a slight pain in my right side as a result of laughing uproariously at your posting here, you may expect to hear from my attorneys, of the corporation "Sue, Grabbit and Runne" at their earliest convenience.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:26 AM

i saw a fox a couple of days ago, it was a bit skinny and rough looking, so I would not fancy eating it anyway, it did not look very tasty.Do you have foxes in America?

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:29 AM

However, to address your question, John, if we didn't have foxhunting, we wouldn't have any National Hunt Racing, no Cheltenham Gold Cup, no Hennessy Gold Cup.

Now, You nake the call

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:34 AM

I reckon Ad Hoc will win the Gold Cup.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:44 AM

Nah....at least a dozen silly people in red jackets must fall of their horses and break their necks per year. It's an OK trade-off.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Terry K
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:27 AM

Rick, I'm sure the members of the Welsh Miners hunt (among other similar hunts) would welcome you to visit them to discuss "silly people in red jackets". I know you're joking but the sad fact is that the mass of urban politicians here see it that way in all seriousness, and will make their decisions from that standpoint.

So to very boringly answer the question in the thread title, no John, it shouldn't.

Cheers, Terry (not a hunter)

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:33 AM

Yeah, I was joking Terry, but truth of the matter is it makes me cringe. Just a big suck about animals I guess. It's one of those emotional responses that I often have, that sometimes change when I'm presented with a good strong (non idealogical) argument.

Tell me about the welsh Miners' hunt.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 02:23 AM

Yeah, me too Terry.......Ignorant American here and I have no idea what makes them important....unless of course they're Gay, Islamic, pilots......Sorry, tell me, I do want to hear.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Tone d' F
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 02:24 AM

The argument has been about for a while and johns question was answered some time ago by Oscar Wilde "the unspeakable chasing the uneatable"

Alternatives have been sought drag hunting

Ban Drag Hunting chasing transvestites with horse and hounds cannot be right

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 02:49 AM

As far as I know, Fox hunting isn't illegal in the U.S. - There used to be fox hunts (at least the musical Mame shows one in the South). Maybe there still is. A possible solution is that fox hunters in the U.K. could go to Georgia on their vacation for fox hunting. There'd probably be less flak - heck, we're talking Georgia - the Klan still exists in Georgia and it'd be good for tourism and I'll bet American foxes are more of a challenge that those little ones in the U.K.

Also, the rodeo is still popular in the U.S. despite that animals are harmed each and every time a rodeo happens - want to know why bulls jump up and down in a mad attempt to "throw the rider"? Check out their back end - noting a rope strung around their hind and under their legs - guess what the underside of the rope is attached to.

Of course, I could be wrong...

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 02:52 AM

Just run down through the postings above:

John from Hull : "Should foxhunting be banned?"

Spaw : "Yes.........It should be banned for all Gay, Islamic, pilots........Also possibly from Scotsmen who have been living in the states too long."

John from Hull : "Can you eat foxes?"

Now taking American slang terms into account I thought that Spaw was on the right track and really was expecting an immediate response from Spaw to JoH's second question. Even more so when next from JoH we get:

"i saw a fox a couple of days ago, it was a bit skinny and rough looking, so I would not fancy eating it anyway, it did not look very tasty.Do you have foxes in America?"

Golden opportunity missed?

John if you did see see a fox a couple of days ago that was a bit skinny and rough looking - You must either have something to do with the fashion industry, or you are obviously going to the wrong bars or clubs.

I can't speak for the status in America but over here in sunny Norway there's a rake of foxes, hunting them seems to be the most single minded obsession of the bulk of the male population and they are regularly eaten with great enthusiasm. No fatalities as yet reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:03 AM

Good point Bill....Keep running with it. Give us a rundown on the Sable Coated Norwegian Fox if you would. Are they sly and cunning? Assuming you've sampled tem, are they something we'd like to eat too?

John's encounter was perhaps with the Skank Fox, a common breed easily found but rarely eaten because of problems of disease control.

Give us a rundown on your favorite breed huh?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:51 AM

Can barely type for laughing at the moment - "Skank Fox" description - absolute Hoot. Get back to you.

Cheers, Bill

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:52 AM

Am I missing out on the spirit of this thread if I actually answer the question? OK, I won't answer the question, I'll answer the other questions.

I've heard one well-expressed, well-reasoned argument as to why killing foxes by hunting with dogs is more humane than shooting them, and one badly expressed but equally well-reasoned. If you want to shoot a fox you need to use a shot gun to be sure of hitting it; using a rifle is going to mean a lot of wasted bullets and you probably won't see the fox again after the first bang. (Also, shotguns are readily available in the UK; rifles aren't without a lot of hassle.) The fox will almost certainly not be killed immediately, but will disappear from sight and die slowly and in much pain, possibly over several days, and maybe from starvation rather than its wound.

On the other hand, a pack of dogs is very good at catching the fox in the first place; and the fox will die there and then, in a short time: no more than a few minutes at most. It will be unpleasant and painful--no argument there, but if it has to die at all, this would seem by far the lesser of two evils.

Do foxes need to be killed at all? I've no idea. I know on occasions they have to be conserved to keep the hunt in business. And we should distinguish between the idea of a lot of people whose idea of fun is to tear about the countryside on horseback at high speed (which sounds pretty exciting, actually) and the idea that the fox's death is part of the fun.

And foxes aren't Nature's mass-murderers. Their instinctive behaviour as predators is to catch something and kill it; all the other lambs/geese/chickens will run away and be safe; the fox will take its prey home and eat it. But if the prey animals are all penned up and can't escape, the fox keeps on killing till they are all dead, because he can't stop until they are.

Any questions?

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Terry K
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:11 AM

Steve - thanks for that, I thought I might just have to get drawn into discussion!

The knee-jerk view is mainly caused by the fact that the "sport" is perceived as being exclusively for the wealthy, landed class who have most of the money. The main opponents tend to be (caution!!!! - sweeping generalisation about to happen) left-wing and socialist who tend not to have most of the money. Sometimes known as the envy motive.

Though this whole concept is ridiculously outmoded in today's economic society, the fact is that hunting almost never was an exclusive preserve of the wealthy. The Welsh miners hunt is just one example of a "working class" hunt, but most hunts would traditionally be avidly supported by local villagers, on foot if they had no horses.

Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:41 AM

No, and the legislation should not be extended to "hunting with dogs", either.

Many anti-hunting people own cats; ever met a healthy vegetarian cat or tried to stop one from hunting to supplement its diet?

If a dog-owner is walking his pet, and it chases, catches and kills a rabbit, are owner and dog to be criminalised? Not in any sensible society, but Britain is seldom sensible where animals are concerned.

If I remember rightly, Scotland has already enacted the legislation to ban all hunting with dogs. Has there been an increase in the number of ferrets kept as pets up there? Not that a ferret is much use against a fox.

Knee-jerk emotion-based legislation is almost always bad legislation. For examples, just consider the "fighting dogs" and handgun laws here in the UK, and some of the "anti-terrorist" measures enacted or proposed since 9/11 in the US.

However, I fear that foxhunting will soon be banned here, with further damage to rural communities already reeling from the after-effects of foot and mouth disease. Urban "animal lovers" may feel differently in time, when increasing numbers of foxes have left the countryside and moved into the suburbs in search of easier pickings, raided dustbins, crapped all over gardens and killed beloved moggy.

When they've done with foxhunters, their next target will be anglers. After that .....

Alan (neither foxhunter or petowner, but angler and hunter with rifle)

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 05:39 AM

Let's get this straight: I am entirely against any form of cruel treatment of animals. If angling is unnecessarily cruel and painful to a fish, then I'm against that too. (I don't know--is it? Somebody start a new thread, please!)

I've never seen a discussion on fox-hunting that actually addressed the root of the problem: some people oppose a cruel and painful method of killing the fox. That's all there is to it. It's a red herring to blame hunters for treating the killing as sport.

The class aspect is more marked today, I think.It certainly used to be the case that all you needed to join the hunt was a servicable horse (which you might be able to borrow); it was a community activity in a time when hunt saboteurs hadn't been dreamt of.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Ringer
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 05:58 AM

It is a fundamentally illiberal attitude to want to ban activities that you disapprove of. How strange that such attitudes should be so evident in the political parties that pride themselves on being liberal (and even, in Britain, include the word in their name!).

On the subject of this thread, my own views are not entirely self-consistent but are not, I hope, quite so nauseatingly hypocritical as those of the Labour MP (an angler! "Fish have different nervous systems and don't feel pain") who introduced the bill to ban hunting early in the last parliament. I have never been nearer to a hunt than having been taken to a meet as a small child, and have absolutely no desire to ride to hounds or even follow them on foot. So I am not so much a supporter of hunting as against those advocating a ban on hunting (how could a reactionary like me be otherwise?). Just a few points:

The word "sportsman" was applied to followers of the hounds long before ball-games were invented. Sportsmen, arouse! The morning is fair wasn't an appeal to footballers, you know.

Hunting has provided the subject of some of the finest songs in the English language (eg the one whose first line I quote above).

If foxes need to be controlled (and I believe they do), is it not better that people should enjoy themselves exercising this control than not?

It seems unfair to me (not in the best sporting tradition!) that hunt servants should stop foxes' earths before the hunt and that foxes which do manage to go to ground should be dug out and killed anyway. But I can see that it's consistent with hunters' claim to have controlling foxes as a primary aim.

So, to answer John's question: No.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 06:20 AM

They eat foxes in Norway ? Yeeeugh ......

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 06:23 AM

click here

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 07:25 AM

Well, I dunno' about the whole thing of fox, but I think Wife Hunting should probably be banned.........The following from today's 'Columbus Dispatch:'

HUNTER SHOOTS WIFE

Gary Johnson's first shot this deer season came early Monday at home when a slug from his shotgun pierced a love seat and passed through the kitchen wall and into the microwave oven.

He was one of thousands of hunters gearing up for what state wildlife officials say was a banner opening day for deer-gun season: 41,257 deer were bagged Monday, an 18 percent increase over opening day 2000.

But Johnson, 52, of Byesville in Guernsey County, never made it to his favorite hunting spot. He was inspecting his shotgun about 2:15 a.m. and thought the safety was on when it discharged.

After the blast, he heard his wife, Sherry, call his name and walked into the kitchen.

"I thought she was going to raise hell with me,'' he said yesterday from his home, about 80 miles east of Columbus.

"She was lying on the floor with blood surrounding her head.''

The .410-gauge slug grazed her scalp.

Mrs. Johnson was taken to Southeastern Ohio Medical Center in Cambridge, where she was treated and released that day.

Officials said only one hunting injury was reported in the woods.

Vicki Mountz, a spokeswoman for the Ohio Department of Natural Resources said a hunter in Hocking County was injured when his shotgun exploded as he fired it Monday.

Last year, there were 11 injuries and one fatality during deer-gun season.

"People are taking safety seriously,'' Mountz said.

Officials said ideal weather Monday brought hunters out in droves.

"The conditions were great Monday. It was clear, the temperature was in the 50s and there were a lot of deer out there,'' said Tim Waldren of Waldren's Hunting Supplies in Newark. "People were saying it was a perfect day to go deer hunting.''

Hunters killed 96,290 deer during last season.

Waldren said hunters brought 189 deer to his store for tagging on Monday.

"That's double what we got last year on the first day,'' he said.

State officials estimate there are about 500,000 deer in Ohio, about a 10 percent increase over last year.

Hunters are limited to one deer in most counties. But wildlife officials say that depending on the 2001 harvest, the state might expand the number of two-deer counties.

"We think we're 7 percent to 10 percent above our target population levels,'' Mountz said.

In Guernsey County, however, Johnson said he plans to give up hunting after his wife's near miss.

"It's been a nightmare since it happened,'' he said. "She's the mother of my kids. The woman I've been with for 31 years."

I'm glad to see they're taking safety seriously this year...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: RichM
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:09 AM

I don't see any problem with hunting foxes, or other animals, or fishing.

...in fact, my favorite sport is flycasting for dogs; I use a live bird on a hook to attract them.

...Of course, I always release the dogs, though sometimes I have to clip the hook and leave the barb in them because it's stuck....

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Mike Byers
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:23 AM

When I lived in northern Virginia several years ago, the Orange hunt was active and there was always criticism of the notion of fox hunting along with plenty of people who defended it as a fine sport. It seemed to me that with all the lawyers, telephone solicitors and politicians around, hunting these would have been more useful to society than chasing foxes which, I admit, never did seem like it would be much of a challenge to me. Chasing Siberian tigers from horseback--now that would be interesting. I used to hunt when I was a kid, but after several years in the military, mostly hunting people, shooting ducks wasn't much fun and I gave it up. But I'd go back to it for politicians, lawyers, etc. Do we have foxes in the US? You bet! Here in western Indiana I've seen both grey and red foxes. People used to shoot them for the $3 bounty (that was a long time ago) but since they're not a threat to livestock (most people don't raise chickens, ducks or geese anymore and only have the concrete, fox-proof ones in their yards)as far as I know nobody hunts them. I've seen some fairly big red foxes, too: big enough to catch a groundhog, which as anybody who knows groundhougs will tell you is not easy. Groundhogs may be vegetarians, but they can give you a serious bite. And if they weren't almost as tasty as suckling lawyer when roasted, I wouldn't fool with them at all. I've never tried roasted fox...

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:24 AM

Foxes have to be controlled? Why? we have foxes here, and, they are not a problem. Natural selection keeps them in balance, so, the idea that fox hunting is necessary strikes me as silly. I am dead set against deliberate cruelty to any living thing, and, to watch a pack of dogs rip a fox apart while it is still alive is cruel.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:12 AM

Absolutely not.
Foxes may not be a problem in Maine, where the big outdoors is maybe big enough to sustain a natural population, but in the cramped UK there's hardly room to swing a cat, let along a fox. As a result natural territories are squeezed and the foxes take advantage of the food supplied by humans - be it sheep, bird poults, chickens, rabbits, cats, the contents of your bin...you name it.
Hunting with hounds isn't the best way to control foxes - lamping at night with a rifle is probably the most efficient. But it does help control the population (artificially, sometimes, because in some hunt areas, foxes have to be persauded to breed!)
One problem with a lot of the fox-hunting fraternity is that they will keep baning on about the 'controlling foxes' argument when they should be candid and admit why they do it - because it is such tremendous, adrenalin-charged fun. It's risky a heck (if you want it to be) and it is a pastime that, in an over-regulated society where the Health and Safety Executive reigns supreme, gives some people the atavistic thrill of risking a broken neck.
Ban foxhunting and what's next? I don't hunt, but I shoot and fish, and I would hate to see those sports banned - and the antis would turn their attention pretty sharpish to shooting and fishing if they won a ban on hunting.
It's a delicately-poised argument, I'll admit. But fundamental to my personal belief s on the subject is the concept that animals don't have rights - humans have responsibilities. Sorry, an inchoate posting there, but one quickly dashed off post-lunch.
I may be back...

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:22 AM

Hey RichM...You seem to be the kinda' guy who'd know, so let me ask you this........See, I have a Fishing License but not a Hunting License or Deer Tag, but I was wondering if the Fishing License would be okay and keep me out of trouble with the Game Wardens? I mean like I wouldn't use a gun or bow or anything, but let's say I take my Fly Rod out in the woods and then maybe I bait it with an ear of corn and cast it out into a school of deer.......Well, you can see what I mean. Do you think I need to invest in a hunting license?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: annamill
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:34 AM

Hi. This is another subject I'm not too sure about. Fox hunting sounds like real fun to me, except fot the killing the fox part. It seems to me we could just hunt the fox, but not hurt it. Didn't polo start out with Arabians hitting a pigs head about, or, is that where football started?? ;-)

Could we train the dogs to corner it until we get there? Then we could give the fox a treat and release it. We train dogs to soft mouth ducks, why not foxes??

My mind at work again.

Love, Anna

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:41 AM

LOL do you mean chase the fox for a few miles then just shout at it or something? I reckon you should not kill animals unless somebody is going to eat them, or they are causing real and severe problems ie if a big lion or something was going to eat somebody I would be willing to kill it, but not just for fun

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: LR Mole
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:44 AM

I think foxhunters should chase footballs, and golfers hit trout. Ban all boundaries between sports, say I.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: RichM
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:00 AM

Spaw, any self-respecting bureaucracy recognizes that this is a unique situation---and bureaucracies can't handle that kind of situation.

So, of course you would need a hunting AND a fishing license, as well a a special license to transport non-standard hunting weapons...

Rich

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:07 AM

Aw nuts! I should have figured they'd get me comin' and goin'..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:50 AM

I got it!

A Fox Hunter Hunt!

It's kind of the best of both worlds. The fox hunters can enjoy their fox hunt and with the added element of them being hunted as well, they really will enjoy the added challenge. I keeps the quantity of fox hunters down so they don't over populate which will allow more room for the foxes and their natural prey (mice and other wild rodents, mostly)

I really enjoy human logic - because there are so many humans, we need to control the population of primary predators in the wild so they don't kill all the animals that are conveinent as food sources. A simple solution would be to start killing off humans - I'd suggest the really rich ones first - mostly because they take up the most land per person - And the challenge would be delightful! My guess is that Land Rovers can stop a typical shotgun blast so you'd have to take them down while their engaged in the woods in group activities such as... Fox Hunting!

It's all so circular!

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:04 PM

I'll have to go back to the Wildlife Surplus Store and check on what's available for Foxes. I went to the Deer Department in the Wildlife Surplus Store and saw all that neat stuff the deer get when they go hunting.

I personally liked the camoflage outfits.......for almost any situation too! A deer could dress himself in a business suit, a tuxedo, jeans and polo, and even pajamas! The pajamas are very effective as the deer know the best time to knock off a human is when they're in rut and they can scout your bedroom for the best place to put up a wall stand to wait you out. Dressed in PJ's they're barely noticeable!

They had a wide array of human calls there too with all the classics like, "Can you rub some oil on my breasts?" and "Look Honey, I'm starting without you!" No stud could resist such temptations and when you add the wide selection of scents available to the human hunter......Well, I tell you I had no idea the deer were so well equipped!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: annamill
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:11 PM

Quote! "I once shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajams I'll never know!".

Tra-la!

L.A.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:22 PM

First filmed version of your quote anna was in "Animal Crackers" when it was spoken by Groucho in the role of Captain Spalding.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: annamill
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:25 PM

That's why I wrote "Quote", 'spaw. I ASS U ME d everyone would recognize the quote. ;-)

Love, Anna

The "ASS U ME" is from an Odd Couple episode. (Just in case)

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: marty D
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:29 PM

The only animals that should be shot for sport are those infernal dogs that sit around playing poker. One of the odder sights I witnessed in the British Isles was that so many pubs and manor houses seem to be adorned with grotesque paintings of dogs ripping foxes apart while the hunters (in their red coats, Rick) stand around puffing from their labours. God knows what they're fantasizing about. Ugh.

marty

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:30 PM

Well geez anna, I think I'll just leave in a Huff!!! Should I take the brown two-door or the station wagon?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:32 PM

Take or leave the actual "hunting" part, depending on time, social climate, whatever. Just keep on writing and singing great hunting songs. JohnB

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:38 PM

Yes, it should be banned in England. It's a cruel pastime for people who enjoy being cruel to foxes. Maybe I am oversimplistic, but that's the way I feel about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: annamill
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:39 PM

I hope ya know I'm just playin' with ya,'spaw (so to speak).

L, A.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:43 PM

And I hoped you got the "Huff" joke so you'd know I knew!

Spaw (:<))

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: annamill
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:52 PM

I did. I thought it was cute, but that is par when reading any of your posts.

L.A. (:>))

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:01 PM

Aw shucks.......geewhiz anna.......I don't know what to say...........But have you read the latest in the the Chronicles of Cletus.....It's called the Tale of the Magnetic Ass-Ring or more simply The Cure? (Spaw said in a completely shameless self promotional gambit)

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST,jack
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:11 PM

I cannot decide if this is a serious posting or just another inside joke amongst mudcatters-- but if it is a serious question, In my opinion, All sport hunting, the killing of animals for the pleasure of killing should be banned-- but it will never happen--jack

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:14 PM

sure... ban it... and golf... and wrestling... and Harry Potter... and rodeo... but while yer at it make damn sure you ban wife beating, queer bashing, child molestation and dope pushing...

Jesus fuck!?!?! Don't we have more important things to worry about than what a few idiots in red coats and stupid hats who think way too highly of themselves in the first place do when they're bored with counting their money and marrying their cousins????

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:18 PM

Yes - Ban fox hunts - and while we're at it ban snipe hunts too. The massive cruality that we visit upon snipes every year is shameful. Let's confess - who among us has gone on a snipe hunt??

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: IvanB
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:58 PM

But, Wesley, going on one's first snipe hunt is a genuine rite of passage. Ban it? Never! Course, I'd wonder about anybody who ever signed up for their second. And, if there's any cruelty to the sniped, it's probably from the danger of them choking to death due to laughing uproariously in the brush while the brave hunters hold their snipe bags at the ready beside the railroad track.

Thread creep alert: I was taught that railroad tracks were prime hunting sites for snipe. Has that been the experience of other intrepid hunters?

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: MMario
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 02:16 PM

snipe hunts misfire when you live in an area in which snipe exist - yes, it is an actual shore bird - which was not known to a new scoutmaster back when I was in sprouts - he was more then a little surprised when one of the hunting teams actually brought back a snipe! (and two loons...but it was overcast...they should be forgiven for having mistaken them for snipe)

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Maxine
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 02:17 PM

absolutely...without a doubt fox hunting should be banned. How anyone can find it remotely enjoyable is truly beyond me. I have a fox in my garden, I buy an extra tin of dog food a day especially for it....we've become quite attatched to each other now! The majority of us Brits want it banned, it's just the pompous Peers who won't put the Bill through Parliament. Still, like Rick says, there's always the hope that one of the pillocks will fall off their horse and break their necks, (their own necks, not the horses)!

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Mac Tattie
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 02:54 PM

YES. cheers (or should I save the cheers for after the ban?)

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Cantrip
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:38 PM

Well I'm a Brit who doesn't want it banned. I'm not actually too bothered about foxhunting because there's hardly anyone (in Scotland anyway) who still does it. But I'm dead against the general banning of hunting with dogs, eg including hare coursing, lamping or whatever. Why the hell shouldn't we? and for those who use the argument 'it's cruel', well, no it's not. It's nature. Dogs have evolved to chase and kill. Hares/rabbits/rats etc (and this includes foxes, if we consider that the last wolf in Britain was only killed in the 18th century - not long in evolutionary terms) have evolved to be chased and killed.
And I hate the way antis always paint a picture of how the hare or fox 'is ripped apart alive by a pack of bloodthirsty hounds'. Generally the first dog to it snaps its neck, and it's dead by the time the rest of them get hold of it.
Although I have to say I do mostly agree with J.F.H above - if you want to kill an animal you should be going to eat it or protecting somone or something from it. And I reckon if you're going to eat it you should be prepared to skin and gut it yourself. I think supermarket prepacked meat has a lot to do with why the urban population is so against hunting with dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Gareth
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:39 PM

Ahhh ! Maxine, nearly my favorite line from that very FUNNY play by Potter "VOTE ! VOTE ! VOTE FOR NIGEL BARTON"

Opening sceen

Nigel Barton & Wife sitting watching Television.

Voice Over By Newsreader.

" The Conservative Member of Parliament for Boresetshire North was killed in a Hunting accident today. His horse had to be destroyed as well"

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Dimple
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:40 PM

No ,have you seen a fox with a snare round it's belly or poisoned,or shot and full of infection with a leg hanging off

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: weepiper
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:53 PM

Bugger, Cantrip's post above was actually me. I didn't notice he hadn't reset the cookie

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:04 PM

No comment, except this. Steve Parkes said, regarding the killing of foxes with guns, "The fox will almost certainly not be killed immediately, but will disappear from sight and die slowly and in much pain, possibly over several days, and maybe from starvation rather than its wound."

I find that statement very... uh... misleading, to put it politely. If you have first hand knowledge of such ineptitude, either UK hunters must not know what kind of ammo to use or they're some piss poor shots.

BTW, hunters go deep in the bush and always shoot twice. That's for Guest, Stavenger Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:50 PM

I think Cantrip makes a good point about supermarket meat, I have no problem with anyone killing anything if it is for food, I have personally killed literally thousands of animals! (I am a licensed slaughterman, and have worked in 3 slaughterhouses).Though I would obviously not expect everybody to kill their own food, as for most people this would be impractical.I think animal welfare is important, the consumer would reap the benefits of improvements, as stress before slaughter affects the taste and quality of meat,(animals under stress secrete chemicals that end up in meat), but that's another story, perhaps for another time!john

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Maxine
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:51 PM

What was it Cantrip? "Generally the first dog to it snaps its neck, and it's dead by the time the rest of them get hold of it" Well, I feel so much better now. At least I know the poor thing died quickly. The fact that it was running terrified through the woods with a pack of hounds running after it, knowing that there was no escape is neither here nor there....at least it died quickly, eh? I work in a Social Services Dept - I know terrible things happen, but surely this is just one more pointless thing that needn't?

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: weepiper
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 05:53 PM

Hello Maxine, it was me weepiper not Cantrip who wrote that, we live together and I didn't notice the cookie wasn't reset for me before I submitted that message.
Well, yes, the fact that it was running terrified etc IS really neither here nor there. I don't really equate a prey animal being killed by a dog with the sort of terrible things I think you must come across in your line of work.
It's not terrible or pointless. It's natural selection at work. What I do disagree with is the practice of stopping up earths and digging out. If the fox gets away that should be the end of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:15 PM

To say that shooting the foxes is just as cruel as running them down and letting a pack of hounds tear it to bits is a red herring. Sure they will kill a chicken, but, American foxes only weigh about ten pounds. Hardly a monster. People have pushed the wildlife to the brink. They have no where to go, and they are only doing what nature programmed them to do. Humans know better. Why did I suddenly think of the "Clearences"?

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:22 PM

Maxine, you should always be wary of feeding wild animals. Here in Florida we have an environmental uproar going on at the moment over the practice of tourist boats feeding sharks. Apparently the sharks get all uppity when they encounter a human who doesn't feed them titbits.

And I have a couple of possums living in my orchard to whom I have fed potato peelings for over two years. Just realised the little bastards are nibbling at my avocados, so I guess I might borrow a couple of foxhounds ......

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:33 PM

endall, there ar urban foxes. On the other hand, I have lived in the countryside most of my life about 26 years of which were in the same Welsh village. There were foxes, we kept hens, ducks and geese and had a few losses but only when we had neglected to shut them up properly. Never lost a cat to a fox in all that time though too much of a risk at least under normal circumstances and I would bet certain stray/roaming dogs would pose far more threat to a cat than the fox.

Other than that, there was little problem with foxes apart from the occasional (annual if that) feeling among some that the fox population was getting too high. A few people went out with guns did the job (yes they did kill them) and that was that - no need for regular hunts.

Fox hunting accounts for comparatively few fox deaths compared total deaths of foxes click here for an alternative pro fox-hunt view to the one offered by a couple here - more in line with Steve Parkes thoughts.

Oh and better just say the link I provided to was to the League Against Cruel Sports. I don't think I share their views on everything - didn't read that far. I have nothing against the person who goes fishing, or shooting and eats what they catch or shoot. I suspect contary to a few a couple of posts here, there would be many anti fox-hunting (IMO bloodlust) people who would be in favour of people allowed to do just that - I'd eat a pigeon or a rabbit even though I'm not a hunter of any sort.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:33 PM

There is a bit of a problem here with people feeding pigeons, the centre of Hull is covered in pigeon shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:46 PM

Where do you acquire TITBITS Murray? The mind boggles.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:26 PM

Sharks GETTING uppity? I thought sharks were ALWAYS uppity!?!?!?!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:36 PM

Isn't "titbits" the correct word? Or does one say "tiDbits" in the States? There used to be a weekly magazine in Britain in the late fifties , early sicties, called "TITBITS". I kid you not.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: fox4zero
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:51 PM

I live in the midst of fox-hunting country and enjoy seeing a red fox occaionally, even though one of the buggers killed our pet Muskovy duck "Lucky" one night as she slept in her nest.

I also have been thrilled by the sight of a few dozen foxhounds jumping my stone walls to slake their thirst in Lucky's pond in front of my house. Then run off to the call of the hunter's horns, while Lucky stared at them from the safety of the middle of the pond. This was during the pre-season road walks to limber up the dogs and horses. The clip-clop of the unseen horses hooves was an added pleasure.

The goal of the hunt is an exciting ride and the thrill of the chase. If the fox goes to ground, no one is interested in digging him out for the kill. An escaped fox is one more for the next hunt.

We also pursue hares on foot with beagles and bassets in a chase called "beagling". Its lots of fun to be out in the countryside in the company of a few dozen sneakered enthusiasts ranging from 8 to 80 years. Again, no one really wants to catch a hare...it would be one less for the next Sunday. And there's a great "tea" after the chase.

It's a pleasure to observe something with a little "style" in this world of mediocrity.

Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: toadfrog
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:54 PM

O.k. with me, so long as they do not ban foxhunting songs.

Does anyone know whether we still have fox hunting in the United States? I think we do. Anyone know whether, if so, it is a political issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:57 PM

Larry, your duck was somewhat unfortunately named, I have to observe.

Not to worry, I used to own a Scotch terrier called "Butch". Boy, did we ever name him wrong .....

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:04 PM

They certainly still hunt foxes in Maryland and Virginia.

Don't know about other states

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:44 PM

And because of another thread, you all know exactly what I felt and feel about bullfighting. ;-)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:09 AM

Art, why don't you post us a link to that bullfighting thread?> I also have strong feelings about bullfighting, and I hope they coincide with yours.

Working among Mexicans and Spaniards as I do, I have discovered that one sure way to get a violent argument going is to open an innocent discussion about bullfighting.

Not that I would ever deliberately stir up controversy.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:10 AM

The part I like is I've heard that the majority of foxes escape the hunt - all those dogs and goofy people in red on horses and they actually have a pretty low success rate.

And the other thing is that I've heard that the sport has little to do with population control - only a small number of foxes are killed each year. Anyone got the averages, by any chance?

By the way, here in the South, coon hunts still occur - hounds and men with guns. The hounds usually "tree" the coon (and I'm talking about raccoons - not the other type) and then they shoot the coon out of the tree.

Of course, I've also gone cow-tipping when I was a teen...

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 03:18 AM

My great grandfather was a collier: that's like a beagler, only with a sheep dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:19 AM

Murray... yes, it is spelled and pronounced tiDbits here in America. And we still have a magazine equivalent but it is spelled Playboy.

Course, you've heard about the greatest coon dog ever, Old Blue. After several treeings where the owner would not let the "sport" from the big city shoot the coon but, rather, shook the coon from the tree upon which Old Blue viciously tore the coon apart, thereby saving ammo. In the end, one coon could not be loosed from it's grip so the owner crawled out on the limb with a stick, lost his grip and fell. On his way down, he hollered most emphatically, "SHOOT OLD BLUE !!!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Cllr
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:35 AM

No foxhunting should not be banned. Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST,fox4zero
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:38 AM

Toadfrog

Foxhunting is alive and well in Dutchess County in NY. It is not a significant political issue (especially if you want get elected)

Rabies here is much more significant as a population control in the racoon, fox and skunk populations. Coyotes have increased in numbers and may help reduce the deer herds which are bursting at the seams. Coyotes and fox compete for the same territories, and in the absence of wolves, have no predators other than man and the rabies virus.

Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:08 AM

if you want some stats on hunting, you'll find some here.
Yes, I know it's from a pro-hunting organisation, but the waters surrounding this issue have been hugely muddied by both sides, and there's precious little truly objective information around.
I have nothing against vegans who are anti-hunting - they have a perfect right to be. But anyone also who eats commercially-reared meat or who uses any animal product - be it gelatin, leather, wool or whatever - should really keep mum on this, as they are implicitly condoning far worse cruelty than is meted out to the fox by the hounds.
As, indeed, is anyone who owns a cat.
Lord save us from perishing bunny-huggers who would anthropomorphise everything and impose a fluffy miasma of urban sentimentality onto the world.
I blame that bloody Beatrix Potter!

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Tone d' F
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:10 AM

Some years ago I lived in the country, and the locl hunt came across my land, I contacted the hunt and told them not to do it again for two reasons 1. the damage they did to my plants 2. they had not caught a fox for months just excercised them

I was also asked by several people if they could shoot the land other than the obvious joke I said they could but only if they eat what they shoot (animals not trees)

Out of 20+ people only one took up my offer every Sunday for 20yrs, my cat did a better job than the lot of them

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:14 AM

Hi Spaw -

Apologies for the delay in responding to your specific queries, hope this is of some help -

The Sable Coated Norwegian Fox:

Absolutely stunning in appearance (Mega Fit), can be naturally blonde, brunette, redhead or artificially all those colours depending on what bottle of hair dye lay within easy reach of their hair stylist last visit.

This variety can most commonly be sighted in cities and although generally considered to be, by nature and habitat, a high cost maintenance item. Is eagerly hunted - normally because sable fur coats tend to be rather warm to wear (Info source - reliable informant, not personal experience) with the result that on entering their selected den for the evening and subsequent removal of coat the foxhunter is normally rewarded with some breast taking scenery and verification that silicon must be an illegal substance in Norway and that most do their shopping at Fantasy Fashions. This process of coat removal has also given rise to another odd behavioural trait governed by the dictum that one should always leave an establishment wearing a better coat than the one you entered it with.

It is from this trait of coat shedding that the English coined the phrase, describing a woman as "Having a fur coat and no knickers" - originally this was purely an observation, between collected hunters viewing the gathered vixens to select the easiest target. This phrase was later carried back to England, where it's usage was corrupted to describe a woman as being a "Dead Cert who is quite prepared to use what she's got to get what she wants". The degree of corruption of the meaning of the phrase, on reflection, is generally considered to be slight.

Ages vary from early twenties to late forties, the upper end of the scale definitely fitting into a category best described as being considered "In damn good shape for a veteran!!"

While ravashing, enchanting and delightful in appearance, it must be remembered by prospective foxhunters that, in the horizontal position, these are wild, dangerous animals - best kept at arms length after the initial, enjoyable, hopefully protracted, close quarters engagement. They might not be sly and cunning - but you can bet your ass they know a lawyer who is.

Degree of edibility is more than adequately verified by Norway's international reputation as having the finest seafood in the world - and they ain't talking about fish.

Gnu's advice given above;

"...hunters go deep in the bush and always shoot twice."

Is extremely sound and should be rigidly adhered to, but to it I would add the cautionary note for prospective foxhunters not to take the first part of Gnu's advice too literally as the majority of them shave.

Yours, in the hope that I have done my bit to boost trans-Atlantic air travel.

Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Cllr
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 07:35 AM

Gervase, Spot on. Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:04 AM

As gervase says, issues are muddy and I don't believe either side is playing exactly straight but click here to see a contrasting view to the statistics.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:17 AM

Gervase, that is another red herring. Animals in a slaughter house are killed instantly with a shot to the brain. Foxes are torn apart alive. there is no comparison.Are you in the dog food business?

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:29 AM

Er, Kendall. ever worked in a slaughterhouse or in the food processing industry?
I've seen calves and turkeys being prepared, and believe me, they ain't enjoying the process. They're often not even dead when the cutters and stickers get to work. At the plant which processes the turkeys of a well-known Norfolk'n'good food baron, I've seen birds regaining consciousness on the racks after they've supposedly been electrocuted, while even a captive-bolt pistol needs skill in application if it is to incapacitate an animal cleanly and efficiently.
Personally I won't eat non-organic, non free-range meat. I'm far happier with a pheasant of pigeon I've shot myself than with even ethically produced meat, because you don't know how it's been prepared.
None of which is much to do with fox-hunting, but...

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:31 AM

Various members of the wannabe upper crust started fox hunting here in Northern California. It didn't last. The coyotes regarded it as a swell way to eat a dog and have fragrant tasty broken legged horse carcasses left in inaccessable spots. I think the solution is clear: import coyotes into the British Isles. This will solve your problems with excess sheep too. After all, you've already got coyotes in your urban areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 09:47 AM

Mucked my link last time. Click here for the alternative views to Gervase's link.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: robinia
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 10:11 AM

Right on, Terry, for your Welsh Miners Club! I hesitate to add more words on the hunting topic, which I think is a town/country split -- a matter (if we're honest about it) to which logical argument is simply window dressing. How do you "explain" or "justify" any primitive joy to someone has never experienced it?

But one comment does seem apropos. People who disapprove of hunting as sport usually think it's fine if you're hunting for the pot. Do it if you have to, but don't enjoy it, right? Or maybe you can enjoy it only if you're doing it for the right reason? Which sounds an awful lot like what a radical rightist might say about sex, but then, that's a joy that city-dwellers do understand. Just imagine if you had to explain it to them ...

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Raptor
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 10:49 AM

Do ya figgure god was shitting us when he threw in the do not kill part in the comandments?

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 06:24 PM

Cllr - Are you aware that "Vote Vote Vote for Nigel Barton " was set in Bedford ??

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 07:34 PM

Actually, I did work in a slaughterhouse , briefly, and it wasn't pretty. I never saw an animal made to syffer, but, I still couldn't take it. Did you ever read The Jungle? It was an expose' of the meat packing industry at the turn of the century. There is no question that the animals that are unlucky enough to taste good have a rough go of it, but, it still does not justify the NEEDLESS cruelty to foxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 01:42 AM

as a spokesperson for coyotes, "You think FOXES have it bad? NOBODY loves the coyote. The only reason WE'RE still here is were smarter than humans. If a bunch of suburbanites wearing red coats came after us, we'd probably die laughing! Foxes should wise up, learn to climb trees like our cousins the Grey Fox does. Then they could pounce on the hunters from above, spook their horses and cause no end of improper frivolity."

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 06:02 AM

Foxhunting is illegal in Scotland, from today.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 07:34 AM

It is easy to rally support to ban anything which is a minority pastime. Many people who enjoyed pistol shooting had to give up their hobbies, basically as the result of a public knee-jerk reaction. Dunblaine and Hungerford (years earlier) were both regrettable incidents, but the number of deaths from legitamately licensed hanguns over the years has been tiny compared with those from other sports. Now if we were to look at the number of fatalities caused by football.... but we couldn't ban that because it's a big industry with a huge following.

Let's put hunting in perspective. It does kill foxes in a way that is probably not the most humane, but then shooting and poisoning them is not neccessarily that painless either. Ask any poultry keeper just how humane a fox is when it gets into a chicken run - it doesn't just kill the odd one or two. If anything, I'm more worried about the number of horses that get injured in the sport. (BTW the term "Sport" has referred to hunting in it's various forms for many centuries - it's only recently that it's been applied to "Games" like football).

Foxes, probably due to urbanisation, are now in much larger numbers than ever before - definitely not in decline. They are not even performing a useful job of keeping other animal populations down - we currently have too many rabbits as well.

The fox has only ever had one serious predator to keep it's numbers down - and that is MAN. These days we are still managing to cull the numbers of young foxes with a modern (and much more efficient) method than foxhunting - the motor car. I am willing to bet that the total number of foxes that will be run over by cars driven by the opponents of foxhunting will be tens of times greater than those killed by all the hunts combined.

The other year I saw a fox hit by a car driver who didn't stop. The fox was not dead, but writhing in pain with probably a broken spine. Ignoring two female pedestrians who were trying to phone a vet (at 11.30pm !) I drove over it's head to put it out of pain - cries of horror from pedestrians.

If a bill was suggested to impose a speed limit of say 20mph on all rural and suburban roads at certain times of the year to protect young foxes it would be vigorously opposed by many of the same people who are now opposing foxhunting.

I say that if people want to hunt foxes - let them, but try and make sure that any cruelty (exept to the odd hunt saboteur) is kept within bounds. I have ridden fast accross country (never to hounds) and it is a wonderful experience - I wonder how many anti-hunters are equestrians.

Oh BTW - Don't forget that Folk Song, Music, and Dancing are all minority pursuits that a large percetage of the general public are not particularly interested in.......

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Ringer
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 09:26 AM

Having sorted out all other problems with the Health Service, Education, Crime, the railways, the London Underground, traffic congestion, Gibraltar, with impeccable timing the Government is about to re-introduce a bill to outlaw hunting!

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST,harvey andrews
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 11:14 AM

when all is said and done I wish to live in a civilised country and I'm ashamed that England allows this barbaric practice to continue. I campaigned for the Labour party in the full belief that it would do what it said it would do. It hasn't done it yet and if it dodges the issue of banning foxhunting again it will have shown itself to be less moral in its beliefs than the Thatcher government. Our lives should not be all about money, getting, grabbing,etc. We should try to leave the world a better place when we go than when we arrived and I feel deeply that banning foxhunting in England would make the world a somewhat better place.Well done Scotland, come on England!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 11:44 AM

OK Harvey, would you like to see angling banned as well, or is that OK because a lot of working class people enjoy it. Perhaps we should just ban posh people from salmon fishing on expensive private locations etc.

And as I've mentioned in an earlier thread, hundreds (or possibly thousands) of times more foxes will be run over by cars than will be killed by hunts this year. How many drivers will get out of their car to check that the fox isn't injured and in pain. And would you be willing to observe the draconian speed limits that would be required to limit the slaughter. I don't think the fact that a fox is killed by carelessness and not deliberately really absolves the perpetrator from blame.

I'm not part of the fox-hunting lobby, but I am anti the anti-foxhunting lobby.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 04:59 PM

It's not often that you see foxes chased over hill and dale by people in cars intending to kill them, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Hawker
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 05:35 PM

But you do see people chasing over hill and dale in land rovers intending to kill deer! Stag hunting at its worst!

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Kernow John
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 06:06 PM

I think it would be more honest of the hunters to come out and say I enjoy the chase and I enjoy the killing. Let's have no pretence about needing to control the fox population.
There have been cases here in the UK lately of gamekeepers leaving deer carcases about to encourage the foxes to feed and breed because there were not enough of them for the hunt.
If the fox population control factor was true I might have some sympathy for the hunters right to chose the way he kills but killing for fun of any animal I find strange behaviour.
Bugger it I've been drawn into a BS thread!
KJ

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 03:29 AM

It would have been interesting to find out from people contributing to this thread, irrespective of the view they held, whether or not they were urban or country dwellers.

The fact that Parliamentary time is being taken up with this issue is scandalous, they have got far more urgent matters to attend to.

Guest Harvey above said a couple of things in his mail:

"I campaigned for the Labour party in the full belief that it would do what it said it would do."

Come on Harvey - like all politicians they just wanted you to flog your guts out to get them elected. Once elected they couldn't care less why you did it and even less for your expectations.

As for:

"We should try to leave the world a better place when we go than when we arrived and I feel deeply that banning foxhunting in England would make the world a somewhat better place."

Exactly how the banning of foxhunting in England makes the world a better place I just cannot imagine. Try campaigning for debt relief for third world countries. Try campaigning to make the IMF more accountable for the moral aspects of their decisions. Try campaigning for legislation that makes multi-national conglomerates honour their promises. Any environmental issue, there are masses of good causes out there that would benefit the world and the more disadvantaged inhabitants of this planet.

As Dave Bryant has said above the car is the biggest killer of foxes. A hunt, on the rare occasions, when they make a kill - it is beyond doubt that the fox is dead.

Banning foxhunting by act of Parliament introduces another law that restricts what people can do. In Scotland the ban is on hunting with dogs. Any dog will chase a rabbit, cat, etc. I am waiting for case to come up where a member of the anti-lobby is brought before the magistrates because some law abiding citizen reports them because they saw their dog chasing one of the neighbourhood cats (strictly speaking the dog is hunting and it is under your control - the dog doesn't have to kill anything, it's the activity of hunting with dogs that's been banned not the result).

Alternative means of control are inefficient, brutally indiscriminate, harmful to other forms of wild-life and to the environment.

Among the costs of banning foxhunting would be that mankind loses one of his earliest skills and some breeds of dogs pass into extinction, or worse are paraded round a ring at Crufts interbred to the point where only their appearance counts and they no longer retain any of qualities that actually marked them as a breed apart.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 05:13 AM

"Among the costs of banning foxhunting would be that mankind loses one of his earliest skills and some breeds of dogs pass into extinction, or worse are paraded round a ring at Crufts interbred to the point where only their appearance counts and they no longer retain any of qualities that actually marked them as a breed apart" Like the Staffordshire bull terrier, or that most British of dogs, the bulldog? They survived the ban on bull-baiting. How about the corgi, which was bred for herding cattle? There's no great cruelty issue there, but they're no loinger used for the purpose they were created for. And what human skills are involved uniquely in fox-hunting?

Perhaps more imprtantly, at what point does an issue become less urgent to the point where it is insignificant? In a democracy, how few voices can be deemed insignificant?

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 06:49 AM

Hi Steve,

To answer the questions you pose above in your post:

With respect to the breeds of dog you mention

Staffordshire bull terrier - fighting dog

Bulldog - no better example of what I quoted exists, i. e. "paraded round a ring at Crufts interbred to the point where only their appearance counts and they no longer retain any of qualities that actually marked them as a breed apart." The Bulldog as pure bred today could no more manage a Bull that fly in the air. Note the Staffordshire and the Bulldog were working dogs - they were used to assist the herdsman in handling or managing bulls.

Corgi - As far as I know they are still used as working dogs.

You ask - "...what human skills are involved uniquely in fox-hunting?"

The ability to select, pair, train and master a pack of hounds to achieve a specific task. To do this effectively the hunter has to develope his/her skill of horsemanship to follow where the quarry leads.

You further ask:

"..at what point does an issue become less urgent to the point where it is insignificant?"

My answer to that is when the basis of the "issue" is subjective opinion. Under those terms what is an "issue" for one person may well be totally insignificant to another - everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST,harvey andrews
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 07:02 AM

My opinions on all other issues are irrelevant.This is a one issue discussion. I've heard all the counter arguments for years and have thought them all through. My conclusion is the human race does not need to kill anything for pleasure. Those that kill for the "joy" of hunting are different to those of us who don't. These differences have always been sorted eventually by concensus and what can be loosely termed "democracy". For most of my life the other people have had their democratic legislation passed to their advantage. Now they're screaming that it's not democratic when the elected reps of the people vote against their interests. Well' sorry folks, but that's how the cookie crumbles! However I think this Blair govt is so cowardly and immoral that they will again allow the unelected Lords to block the will of the people and then we will see that the so-called democratic process is a sham and this will lead, as it always does, to direct action and forms of terrorism.When the people are not heard, the people eventually act. The only way to avoid further problems is to accept the elected voice of the people and act on it. No one says majority rule is pleasant for the minority but that's the system we have and we can't be selective about it.If a free vote can block the hang 'em lobby then a free vote must be allowed to block the hunt 'em lobby or where do we go.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: swirlygirl
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 07:44 AM

sorry...not enough time to read all posts.

As unprincipled veggie I have no probs with killing ANY animals! I just don't want to eat them.

However, if you want to kill the animal, try not to petrify it first by chasing it with dogs. Just shoot it...

Dead...over and done with...

Man is higher up in the food chain and this is as it should be...

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Jock Morris
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 06:51 PM

Slight correction to a post above saying hunting with dogs is now illegal in Scotland; not yet it isn't! While the legislation has been passed it hasn't received royal ascent yet, so isn't on the statute books.

Shooting is only quick and painless if the person with the gun is a good enough shot. I've been on a pheasant moor where 4 people with shotguns loosed off at a fox without killing it. Its backside was peppered with shot, so it probably died a slow agonising death over the next few days or weeks. If the hounds catch a fox it's ripped apart in seconds, so death comes quickly.

A fox is a fly wee bugger of an animal and it can take many days to hunt the beast down so you can shoot it; few farmers or land owners have the time for that. You ban the dogs then what's the bet they start using poison to catch the foxes. Lets see how many family pets die as a result of that.

How about we re-introduce the wolf to Britain and let it control the fox population for us. <- serious suggestion.

Scott

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Mrs Cobble
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 07:01 AM

I just wish the UK government would spend as much time , effort, money and hot air on getting the railways, other public transport, the Health Service and the crime problems put right, as they do on this subject!!!

As far as the government is concerned its not about foxes is about doing down the 'upper classes'. I don't hold with cruelty to animals but then I don't hold with people having to wait years for treatment in our hospitals.

Mrs C

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 10:23 PM

I don't mind if they hunt them. It's what they do to the poor bastards when they catch them that bothers me.

Now, who wants to talk about fishermen killing for sport?

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 10:44 PM

Now, I didn't read all the posts in this thread but I live one county away from Loudoun County, Va, the fox hunting capital of the US and this is what I have to say about fox hunting: Hunting and killing are two different things. I like foxes and with the development in Loudoun, the 3rd fastest growing county in the country, there will become a time when foxes are run completely out. Until then, hunt them but once you've chased the poor thing down, call it a day. Don't kill it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST,Mr. Fox
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 11:01 PM

Most definitely, except by vixens, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Kaleea
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 12:42 AM

Fox hunting needn't be banished--just banish the humans, guns, horses & hunting dogs from the activity!

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST,.patrick
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 02:11 PM

The debates on fox hunting have become very theoretical - about whether hunting is cruel and whether the fox is an attractive part of the wildlife scene. There are some key practical issues that need to be understood:

1. Democracy does not entitle anyone to make key decisions on matters about which they have an adequate understanding. Sentiment is not enough.

2. There are severe practical problems caused by the fox as vermin. They are significant carriers of toxicara canis - the child blinding disease - and have a very damaging impact on other wildlife, farmed poultry and animals and domestic pets like cats. In short they kill them.

3. Hunting has been a key driver in and reason for the development of beautiful Britain. Field sportsmen maintain habitats in close concert with landowners and rural communities. They have done so for many years. The rural community spends hundreds of times more money and resource on the environment than the Government and all environmental groups put together - figures found in the Economist recently, if I remember aright. No one can be sure what the impact of removing a key element in the rural fabric might be. Is it likely that the rural community will continue in that same tradition or would some new Government quango have to step in to halt the decline? Who would end up paying for the countryside then? The tax-payer of course.

Yours aye

Patrick S.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Ringer
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 01:59 PM

I think you meant to write inadequate in your point 1 above, Patrick? If you did, I agree entirely. Unfortunately, in our democracy the ignorant, thoughtless and feckless get exactly the same voting weight as the intelligent, thoughtful and responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 02:27 PM

Democracy does not entitle anyone to make key decisions on matters about which they have an inadequate understanding. Bang go referendums, elections and the voting rights of all tabloid readers.Sorry, your sentence is nonsense. What you mean is no one has a right to make key decisions on what you think they have an inadequate understanding about. I think the British people have a very adequate understanding that hunting is a barbaric evil and they have voted for its banning.They voted for Thatcher for years and I had to put up with it. That's what we call democracy and its what you're stuck with in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: alanabit
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 04:44 PM

I particularly resent the expression "field sport". In my inglorious youth I played rugby (rather badly). This effectively gave fifteen sizeable Philistines the right to trample, thump and squash me in various horrible ways for around eighty minutes on a Sunday afternoon. However, it qualified as "sport" because I was a voluntary participant and was at least assisted by fourteen other masochists. I'll call fox slaughtering "sport" when the fox is armed with a troop of mounted, uniformed thugs on its side. I wonder how many would participate in the "sport" if they ran the risk of finishing the afternoon being disembowelled by a pack of hounds?

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 05:23 AM

Alanbit, your definition of the word "Sport" is a very modern one. Originally the word meant hunting in all it's many forms - Henry VIII would have used the word "Games" or "Tourny" to describe what you call "Sport".

If you want to hijack words to a new meaning, don't complain about those people who want to use the original definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST,Bez from Bromley
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 05:49 AM

Banned? Banned?

Country guy "In a rat's ass it should be banned!"

Townie "Oh but you could shoot them" (superior attitude)

Country guy "You tried shootin 'em?"

Townie "Certainly not. I don't engage in blood sports except the culling of employees who commit suicide when made redundant and also the exploitation of third world peoples so that I can wear an expensive pair of trainers with a logo on and support the vile system which puts and keeps people in cardboard."

Country guy "So what you're sayin is, you ain't got a clue what you're talkin about and you're just as bad if not worse that the idea you have about me."

Townie "Not entirely no. I am moving to a village soon, and will pressure buy land from a struggling farmer in order to erect a housing estate and make a killing. I'll then get my townie mates to move in and force the locals out with economics. We'll still shop in the towns and cities and put no money in the pocket of the local butcher etc., so they'll go out of business, this will lead to a wholesale destruction of the local economy. Next we'll build a bypass to the new theme park we want in the woodland. This will ensure a steady influx of junkies, burglars and other undesirables, and when we've finished, we'll realise that we've destroyed it and turned it into where we came from. Then we'll promptly move our clever arses to another village and do the same again.

Country guy "But what about the local people? You can't do this!"

Townie "Who can't? Its my right as an individual in the new millennium and other pukeworthy excuses for selfishness and narrow minded, I know better, type twaddle!"

Country guy "But the village will be just a big slab of concrete!"

Townie "Your point being?"

Country guy "This fox, where does it live again?"

Townies are the main protesters against country practices, When the C.A. say that townies just don't understand the country, THEY ARE RIGHT!

Keep your noses out!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 06:50 AM

Well, I lived for sixteen years in the country near Lichfield (England), in a mixed farming area. One of our friends buys (bought, rahter; I think he's packed it in since the F&M) lambs and fattened them up on his own farm and any spare land on other local farms. There are foxes, I've seen them; there hasn't been a hunt since before the war, but I've never heard of any lambs being taken. Everyone seemed to manage all right.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 08:56 AM

Bez - Someone (also from the Bromley Area) has come up with this idea

I rather like the thought of a whole load of hunters mounted on Hooden Horses chasing Ravensbourne Morris across Keston Common on Boxing Day.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 04:55 PM

Dave, you may find my understanding of the the word "sport" to be a modern one, but it has been around all my lifetime. If your semantic principles are only going to accept ancient definitions of words, you are proposing a pretty radical overhaul of the English language. You clearly understand the point I was making, which was the euphemistic use of the word to give the ridiculous impression that foxhunting is somehow "fair". It's not.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Big Phil
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 02:31 PM

No

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 02 - 06:46 AM

I read an article this weekend that they are doing it in the western US with coyotes instead of foxs and they found it ironic that dogs were hunting a dog. (Isn't a fox a dog also?)

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST,Aldus
Date: 08 Apr 02 - 02:45 PM

Killing anything for the sake of fun is as uncivilized as one can get. I have no problem with the ethical use of animals but the exploitation of them for the purpuse of mere entertainment is indefensible. I love Oscar Wilde's description of an Englishman at a foxhunt; The unpeakable in persuit of the inedible

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 01:54 AM

Should John from Hull be banned?

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 07:40 AM

Yes it should.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Ringer
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 09:20 AM

Can't agree, Mrs Lemon: John from Hull is one of our more entertaining posters.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Trevor
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 09:24 AM

At least Mrs Lemon has the advantage of being able to make a judgement having experienced both sides of the argument. And foxhunting!

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Midchuck
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 10:47 AM

Everything that anyone enjoys should be banned. That will produce a truly morally pure society, for the 80 or so years it takes the species to die out.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: fogie
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 01:05 PM

Even "Memoirs of a foxhunting man" and "The Irish R.M." and all those wonderful hunting songs cant change my mind about how uncivilized this so-called sport is. I also felt very angry about the placards that went up last year saying " the government ignores a minority at their peril" or suchlike. I thought this very much indicated the sort of people we are talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 12:51 AM

It was a GRAND NIGHT at the mudcat cafe - when the best a Saturday morning has to offer is left over Hulls in the John.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 12:27 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 12:47 AM

Guest(s)-Don't judge other people, or you might get judged yourself.

Sincerley
John

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:36 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: lady penelope
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 04:18 PM

Mmm, tricky.

There are some areas where foxes are a nusciance to livestock holders. Clearly they have to do something about what can be a threat to their livelyhood.

On the other hand, I've been told by people who help run hunts, that they quite often end up leaving food out for foxes during the winter to make sure that there's something to chase the following year!

I think I have a problem with scaring the shit out of any living thing and then possibly killing it for fun.

But if killing something is a necessity then it should be done, hopefully, with as little anguish as possible ( I know these things are not a science ).

On the whole, I have way more problems with how we raise our livestock ( poultry especially ) than hunting. I don't see Mr Blair banning battery farming .

I too try to make sure the meat and meat products I buy are organic and free range and no, I don't mind paying more for it and maybe eating less meat products because of it.

I can't say yes or no to fox hunting as I don't own livestock and live in the country, but frankly, I think the whole issue is a masterful stroke of misdirection by the government. If people are busy having rows about this, then they won't be concentrating on the areas Mr Blair and his cronies don't want to answer questions on.

Think on't

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST,Parker
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 06:58 AM

DEFRA = Department for the elimination of farming and rural activities.

I agree, M'Lady P, it is a smokescreen. If the law is passed methinks there will be rather a large number of hunters who ignore it, either clandestinely or openly.

When Blair and Co have finished with hunting, they'll start on shooting, then fishing.

The "cuddly little animals" anthropomorphists rule - stupid b****ds!

But bombing innocent Iraqi/Afghan civilians is OK!

So is factory farming livestock!

Consistent? Yes, being anti foxhunting is a "class" issue, it's really got b***er all to do with animal welfare.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Gurney
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:00 AM

No, it shouldn't. BUT, Anyone who kills something should(MUST) eat it, and anyone who eats something should(MUST) kill and prepare it. Don't know how you could police that, but I do follow the philosphy, and consider it a form of respect. I shoot no longer, and fish with barbless hooks in case a fish gets away with one. Asides. Fish do not feel pain in the same way that mammals do. Not a biologist, but I've caught thousands of fish. The things they eat are very spiny. On behalf of potatos. Will you bloody Vegans stop killing our babies. I do not like factory farming (indoor type) but if we still lived in a hunter-gatherer society most people would only live for weeks. The mealy-mouthed would die first. Hmmmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: wilco
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:47 AM

I haven't read all of the posts here, but I do have a strong opinion. Foxes have to eat like every other living creature. If they can't hunt, they can't eat, and they will die. I certainly think that foxes should be able to hunt. And, just think about it. How in the world would you ever enforce a ban on foxes hunting? Are all the foxes registered with the British authorities or something?

Wilco in USA (Tennessee)

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: GUEST,Noddy
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:20 PM

ALL HUNTING SHOULD BE BANNED

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Ringer
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:01 PM

Instead of just shouting, Guest Noddy, could you come through with some argument to back up your point of view?

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:39 PM

Banding foxhunts is a ludicrous idea. To begin with a marching band could never maintain the speed to keep up with the horses. Even the attempt would ruin the beat. And then there's the obvious detail that the terrain used is totally unsuited to marching. It's out of the question. There ought to be no problem, however, with banding foxhunters. Something large and colourful in the ear might look rather nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: rock chick
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 05:37 PM

Fox hunting is cruel, not humane, distasteful and should be BANNED.

It's a sport! that what some people call it,

All the rubbish about foxes needing controlling in the countryside, leave nature to deal with nature, whenever we so called humans take things into our own hands we make a mess of it. Nature always copes and deals a better deal. Maybve if we humans stopped interfering with our world our whole planet would be a much nicer place to be on.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: CraigS
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:14 PM

Where I come from in Yorkshire there are very few foxes. This is because local gamekeepers find out where they are living, and send terriers through the front door. The terriers cause the foxes to leave their homes, at which point they meet the gamekeepers standing by the entrance. The gamekeepers shoot the foxes at close range. This does not cause extended suffering, as they are shot until they are deaded. If foxes have to be killed, this is undoubtably the most humane way of doing it. On the other hand, it is still hunting with dogs. If Mr Blur's beak becomes law, how will the gamekeepers get the foxes to come out? I can definitely say that calling out Here, Foxy makes them run in the opposite direction and hide! OTOH - If hunting with dogs becomes illegal, I think we should start hunting politicians with whales, particularly Cllr, who has a dolphin in his bathroom.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:53 PM

Dear Rock Chick,

May I say, as politely as possible, that you are unbelievabley full of shit. There are something like twice as many white tailed deer in the US, for example, as there were when Columbus landed. With much less place for them to be. Mankind has inherited the responsibility of keeping their numbers in check. As one of the ex-leading chicken thieves of Brazos County, Texas, I can assure you, from personal observation, that foxes are skillful, avid chicken thieves themselves. Where foxes are plentiful, they must be controlled. I agree that a mounted posse isn't the way but, still, it needs to be done. Not only chickens but house cats and small dogs make Reynards dinner. Would you be so casual if it were your cat some fox killed? Up in the hills, you yourself, could be dinner for some bear or cougar. There's scarcely a year here in Northern California when it doesn't happen. Man and nature are uneasy neighbors. Live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: rock chick
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 04:14 AM

Misophist

What a load of s... Mankind has never inherited the responsibility of keeping their numbers in check. they took it on themselves and we seem to do with many things. And yes in fact a fox did kill a pet of mine, but that doesn't make it right to kill the fox, it's only hunting to survive, we hunt to kill, just because we think it's our responsibility, no it's because they call it a sport! Yes Man and nature are uneasy neighbors, but they should learn to live with it. Hunt for food, that is nature and always has been,whether it be the animal that wins or the human, but to hunt for sport!

How would you like to be chased until you were exhausted, then ripped to death by dogs, you call that responsilbe mankind, and dont tell me it doesn't happen like that, because it does, i been there and seen it, it's sick. On that note i'm off to work which is somthing else i dont like!

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: Troll
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 07:26 AM

Absolutely it should be banned.
Then the thousands of people who make their living off the hunt could go on the dole, lose their property and move into council(subsidized) housing.
The developers could then pick up the property for a song and build more council housing to sell to the Government, and, in the process, destroy even more wildlife habitant so that those foxes who had been saved from the hunt could die of starvation or from being run over by developers lorries (trucks).
The horses could be sent to the knackers and turned into dog-food. But not, alas, for the foxhounds. They don't make good pets, you see, so they'll have to be put down (that's the PC way of saying killed) since their owners will no longer be able to afford to feed them.
But that's ok because at least all those hoity-toity rich folk won't be able to gallop around the countryside anymore.
And that's the whole idea isn't it, park everyone in front of a telly and spoon-feed them their opinions.
Ban cross-country walking while you're at it. And fishing. And birdwatching.
Put your minds to it and I'm sure you can all think of other things.
I've gotta go. My show is on.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Should foxhunting be banned?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:11 AM

Rock Chick:

I reccomend to you the Society of Saint Hubert, an international association of professional game keepers: people who certainly understand the situation better than you or I do. One of the things members are committed to doing is to take the place of the predators missing from the local environment. You completely missed the point about the deer, didn't you? Without predation (hunters) the booming deer population destroys it's habitat, starving the deer and all the other creatures they share a habitat with. The point is that there must be a BALANCE. Now I'd better stop before I get abusive.