In Remembrance

Subject: In Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:30 PM

In Remembrance of My Birthday

We all felt the horror, the anger, the sadness, and the hatred
on that day, whether we watched it on the TV screen, heard it on
the radio, read it online, or watched it in person. We all felt
it. We all remember that day clearly, though it was years ago.
We all remember that there were no, nor are there, words to
describe the way we felt, the way we feel each time we think
about that bright sunny Tuesday morning, when Manhattan became a
cloud of smoke and tears. I turned 27 that morning.

I remember clearly waking up that morning begrudging having to
go to work, when all I really wanted to do was stay home, sleep,
play video games, and just cruise around on the internet,
anything but work. The last thing I wanted to do that day was
provide technical support to some one who couldn't get online or
get their email.

I walked into the living room, heading straight to the computer,
ready to get online to check my morning email. I happened to
glance
at the TV which was on, and all I saw was a cloud of smoke and
dust covering the Manhattan skyline. Something was different.
I could not put my finger on it, and then I saw the replays.
The
planes crashing into the towers, balls of fire erupting through
the buildings, close-ups of doomed souls hanging from the
shattered windows plummeting to their deaths so they wouldn't
burn alive, then the towers falling like felled giants in a
faerie tale crushing all those beneath them, and the screams of
the onlookers. I saw the smoky wastelands of the Manhattan
streets and people covered in blood and dust, shocked joggers
running through the darkness, unaware of their surroundings. I
saw the after effects of a bombing and the beginning of war. I
watched these scenes replayed again and again throughout that
day, each time the tears dripped down my cheeks, fear flowed
through my veins, anger burned my cheeks, and hatred glowed in
my eyes. I sat in silence in front of the TV all that day, just
like millions of people worldwide. We all felt the same.

Now a few years have passed since that horrible day, and each
year the wounds and the feelings come spilling to the surface as
these same images are replayed again. My heart still breaks for
those 3000 plus families and friends who lost their loved ones
that day and those who were forever maimed, physically and
emotionally, but mostly my feelings have altered some since
then. Oh I still feel the fear, the anger and the hatred, but
in different ways. I fear for those who come home from two
foreign wars dead, missing limbs, and shattered minds. I feel
anger at the greedy politicians wrapping themselves in the flag
of fear known as 9/11 as justification for their illicit war.
The hatred is for the societies and environments that permit
such madness, such disregard for life, such extreme religious
fervour to breed and to bloom to create armies ready to die for
their god, spreading death and tears in the place of love and
forgiveness.

A violent war on terror will never destroy it, terror breeds
terror, death begets death. It only becomes a constant war of
revenge and reprisals. One can only search to apprehend those
involved in such heinous acts and yet at the same time seek to
heal the wounds that cause such anger and hatred, tear down the
stagnate environments of hopelessness and betrayal, and rebuild
with hope and eyes to the future for all mankind.

Now every year, I do not drink to celebrate my birthday. I
drink to remember those who died that day, to those who lost
some one, and to all of us who are forever scarred by what we
saw or heard, be it by TV, radio, internet, or in person. I
also drink to those who have gone to fight in wars of greed
justified by politicians lining their pockets while invoking
9/11. I drink to those of us back home whether it is in
America, the Middle East, Europe, Asia or elsewhere. I drink
for the future of all humanity, for peace and prosperity. I
drink in loving remembrance of my birthday. Slainte!


Nathan Tompkins

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:05 PM

Blessed Birthday to you, Nathan.


This is what I put in my first post to any of the threads on that day, and on that subject:

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:39 PM

Thank you --seed. Our glas bubble of security here in the US has been burst. We now know that we are no less vulnerable than anyone else in the world. Can we learn some humility now? Can we put our values of respect for human life into practice even in the face of a challenge such as this one? Are we up to the test?


I guess maybe we're not. Not yet anyway.

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:53 PM

There is no reason for your birthday to be unhappy....some terrorists committed an atrocious act on that day but it's still your birthday. Have fun. Best wishes.

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: GUEST,Different One
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:11 AM

Forgive me Nathan, but you sound like a racist jerk. Americans like you, who responded to 9/11 with hate scare me more than the terrorists, honest to god.

I and two of my cousins have birthdays this weekend: on the 11th, 12th, and 13th. We talked about this not so long after the events of the day, and none of us felt that we would associate the attacks with our birthdays. We live far away from the sites of the attacks, we didn't know any of the people killed or their family members, though we know plenty of people who live in the areas of the attacks who weren't immediately effected by it.

It seems maudlin to me to brood about this, just because it is your birthday. Your racist hatred is just plain ugly.

My dad's birthday is the same day as the JFK assassination, but he never dwelt upon that, nor do we do any sort of "remembrance" of Kennedy, as much as my father liked him as president.

Maybe it's time for you to grow up Nathan, and look at the events of the day as what they were: a tragedy that didn't directly effect most Americans, despite the racist reactionary flag waving that was everywhere in the first few months, along with hate crimes against ALL minorities going through the roof around the country.

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: JennyO
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:33 AM

GUEST, Different One, I think you need to read Nathan's post again, all the way through, and then you would see that you have completely misunderstood what he is saying. Amongst other things, he said this:

I feel anger at the greedy politicians wrapping themselves in the flag
of fear known as 9/11 as justification for their illicit war.
The hatred is for the societies and environments that permit
such madness, such disregard for life, such extreme religious
fervour to breed and to bloom to create armies ready to die for
their god, spreading death and tears in the place of love and
forgiveness.

I think you owe him an apology.

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:48 AM

Like hell I do.

Nathan also said this:

"I watched these scenes replayed again and again throughout that
day, each time the tears dripped down my cheeks, fear flowed
through my veins, anger burned my cheeks, and hatred glowed in
my eyes...We all felt the same."

Well, I was at work in an urban high school full of teenagers. The TV was on all day, but most of us got back to the business at hand immediately. Most Americans couldn't afford the luxury of staying home from work, in a dark room, watching 9/11 events non-stop like this self-obsessed, narcissistic 20-something twit did.

We have a sizable Muslim population in our school (and district), and more than ever, they needed our PROTECTION FROM ATTACKS. In school and on the way home. We had to deal with their hysterical parents and guardians rushing to school to get them out of fear their kids would be killed by backlash vengeance attacks by ugly Americans. Innocent Muslim kids who had already been traumitized by the hell they and their families had gone through (many of them have been orphaned) to get to the US. I most certainly DID NOT feel the same as Nathan Tompkins.

Nathan also said this:

"Oh I still feel the fear, the anger and the hatred, but
in different ways...The hatred is for the societies and environments that permit such madness, such disregard for life, such extreme religious fervour to breed and to bloom to create armies ready to die for their god, spreading death and tears in the place of love and
forgiveness."

It is always perfectly clear to me when I see these sorts of ignorant, racist remarks about Muslims, that the person spouting such hateful crap has probably never met a Muslim in their life.

Let me make this perfectly clear to both Nathan and JennyO. Nathan and people like him absolutely DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME AS AN AMERICAN. I am not about hating entire societies (the word "societies" works as a wonderfully PC code word for race/religion) for the perversely sick acts of a handful of men.

Owe Nathan an apology? Not on your life.


"

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:54 AM

GDO:

You obviously had some hate of your own saved up and were looking for an excuse to vent it, since it does not match anything Amergin was saying.


A

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: JennyO
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:06 AM

My thoughts too, Amos. I gave GUEST the benefit of the doubt, because I thought maybe he/she was a reasonable person who had misunderstood. Obviously I was mistaken. He/she will see 'racist' no matter what anyone says - oh well.

Nathan, I found what you said to be very honest and very moving.

Jenny

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:36 AM

Guest, polite comment, time to get concelling

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:37 AM

Oh baloney. You two are just grasping at straws to defend this bigoted, anti-Muslim behavior.

I called you on making a racist slur against Muslims in the last day or so also, Amos. So you appearing here to defend the racist anti-Muslim remarks of another poster comes as no surprise to me.

I call a spade a spade--and a racist a racist. That makes me a direct, forthright communicator, who doesn't let racist remarks go unchallenged. Because my strong reaction against racist remarks makes racist jerks feel uncomfortable, that doesn't come remotely close to making me or my response "hateful". Love is every bit as fierce as hate. It takes a fierce, loving, strong heart to fight this racist poison. But then, I don't expect either of you two hypocrites understands much about that kind of love anyway.

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:28 PM

Guest 10:36, impolite comment: time to sign up for literacy classes.

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:47 PM

"Oh I still feel the fear, the anger and the hatred, but in different ways...The hatred is for the societies and environments that permit such madness, such disregard for life, such extreme religious fervour to breed and to bloom to create armies ready to die for their god, spreading death and tears in the place of love and forgiveness."

Reads to me, like a condemnation of the whole human race... and one that is VERY justified... But I agree with the above folks... don't let the actions of a few zealots ruin your birthday for the rest of your life... Every day is the anniversary of some atrocity or other... But it's also the anniversary of some great triumph or other... better to focus on the latter no, G-4:30?

"I call a spade a spade--and a racist a racist."
Calling 'a spade a spade' IS a racist comment... so maybe you'd better see a doctor about that serious rectal-cranial inversion you seem to be suffering, G-10:37... cause you have some good points about "innocent Muslim Children" absolutely... Cause Muslims didn't 'do' 9/11... insane zealots did... an NO country has a monopoly on THOSE!   But I think you're guilty of reading your own agenda into Nathans post... And your inflammatory accusations don't help at all either... you're only eroding what little firm ground you have...

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:49 PM

Nathan,
This year I managed to get through most of Sept. 11 thinking it was the 10th. Previous years I have had weeks of nightmares leading up to the anniversary. Time heals.give yourself time.
SINS

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:52 PM

Yeah Clinton, you are such a fountain of light when it comes to your Jekyll and Hyde spins on bigotry and hate, after all.

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:54 PM

Ya... whatever... like you have ANY clue about me...

All you know, is what I chose to tell you here....

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:01 PM

Sigh. Clinton you go from trying to be a reasonable thoughtful person, to nyah nyah nyah boo boo in about 60 seconds.

Have you not noticed what that sort of childish behavior does to your credibility? Or is it that you just don't care if people don't view your contributions as credible? Which would then beg the question, why do you bother trying to communicate?

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:04 PM

This thread is not about me

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:11 PM

It wasn't about me either, but that didn't stop you or the others from trying to make it so.

I responded to what I perceive as racist, inflammatory statements in the opening post of this thread. Mudcat has become more and more accepting of this anti-Muslim racist shit, especially since so many people are now voting for one or the other candidate who is promising to carry on the Crusades in the name of America's Freedom.

Flaming me won't shut me up, or keep me from calling people on their anti-Muslim bigotry, especially when it is wrapped up in that "9/11 is my birthday, and I'm so bummed about it" sympathy ploy.

These kinds of juvenile, narcissistic, pathetic attempts to get attention by associating one's self with tragedy (which is currently at epidemic proportions in the US) is maudlin, phony, and a slap in the face to anyone who TRULY WAS effected directly by the events 9/11 by surviving the attacks personally, or losing someone in them.

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:30 PM

I'm not flaming you... (o.k... maybe a little... but suck it up... worse things happen at sea...) I'm disagreeing with your assessment of the initial post, and offering my reasons why... I believe the first 'flame' was yours... "you sound like a racist jerk"... I'm simply responding to you, in kind, on what appears to be your level of discourse...

To me, the 'poem' (free verse.. whatever) isn't racist... As I said above, it seems to call the whole human race to the floor to stand accused... An accusation I happen to agree with... for the reasons I stated above...   

It's certainly not racist, like 'calling a spade a spade' is racist...

"calling people on their anti-Muslim bigotry"
Absolutely... On any and all bigotry for that matter... but where does it say "Anti-Muslim" in Nats post? I'll say it again... "I think you're guilty of reading your own agenda into Nathans post..."

Am I wrong? So, what am I not understanding about your point of view?

"These kinds of juvenile, narcissistic, pathetic attempts to get attention by associating one's self with tragedy"

Who are you to attempt to dictate how someone copes with such an event?

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:45 PM

Clinton, because he didn't say Muslim specifically doesn't mean he isn't referring to them directly. The quote again:

"The hatred is for the societies and environments that permit
such madness, such disregard for life, such extreme religious
fervour to breed and to bloom to create armies ready to die for
their god, spreading death..."

He doesn't have to say 'Muslim' because we know exactly who Nathan is referring to, don't we?

Nowhere in that post does Nathan exhibit one iota of compassion or empathy for the Muslims suffering under the boots of the Taliban, the Saudis, the Americans, the Brits, the Israelis, or the fundie Ayatollahs.

His compassion and empathy are only for 'his own kind', his hatred and anger specifically directed at 'those societies' and 'that religion', isn't it?

And if I have to explain this any further, I'm guessing you don't want to get why I perceive that statement I quote above as a racist, anti-Muslim statement of unadulterated hate, because you agree with the sentiments maybe. Or you just want to be contrary. Or you want to play the flame game. Pick nits. Whatever.

Because I perceived the statement as racist and hateful, and reacted to it on that level, doesn't mean it wasn't racist and hateful, does it Clinton?

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:05 PM

Well, I would like to draw attention to the following page, raised by the Free Muslim Coalition Against Terrorism. It offers apologies for 9-11, but unfortunately not from those who perpetrated it. Regardless, they are sincere apologies.

I made it clear to you once before, Guest, that my position is not racist nor anti-Muslim but anti-cult, anti-dramatization and anti-intolerance. I am sorry you choose to ignore my own description of my own position in favor of your one-eyed bias, but it isn't my problem. I know what I stand for and it isn't anti-Musilim or even anti-Islam.

A

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:26 PM

Why in god or allah's name would ANY Muslim apologize to the US for 9/11?

You see, that shows an anti-Muslim bias right there, Amos.

Why would any think the Muslim world owes the US an apology, just because a handful of fundie fascist sociopaths, who are no different than the one we currently have in the highest office in the land sitting on his racist ass in the Oval Office, committed a horrific act of violence?

Do you expect the entire Muslim world to ass kiss the west, because a tiny, infintessimal group of them have decided to play army by forming paramilitaries and attack innocent human beings?

I'm not trying to lessen the impact that undetectable percentage of Muslims is having upon the world through committing horrific acts of violence. But as I've said elsewhere, what they are doing to us is not any more horrific than what the Bush/Kerry cabal is doing to them with our weapons of mass destruction. Their called bombs and bombers. And we've killed tens of thousands more of them than they have us.

Jesus, get a sense of realistic proportion about these things, will you Amos? Do you blame all Cambodians for the atrocities of Pol Pot? All Serbs for the atrocities of Milosevic? All Haitians for the sins of the Duvaliers?

I'm guessing the answer is no, you don't. That's the right answer, too. So how come you don't get the same answer when it is asked about bin Laden, Saddam, and the Taliban?

My guess is, the answer is racism, but you aren't even aware of it in yourself. I think you have more than enough ability to become more self-aware about this subconscious American racist, anti-Arab and anti-Muslim mindset Amos. But like any sort of self-awareness, it requires an open mind, and the determination to do the hard work of critical self-examination.

I do hope you, and so many other Mudcatters I see doing this same damn thing, who are otherwise pretty enlightened about subconcious racism and bigotry, figure this one out soon. Because the anti-Muslim slurs are creeping in all over the place in the BS threads these days. It seems to get worse the worse America behaves in Iraq in particular, the closer we get to Election Day, and the more people cling to the desperate belief that it will be better under Kerry.

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:40 PM

GUEST:

I'm sorry, but you don't seem to understand anything I am saying today.

Your assumption that I associate the sins of the fanatic few with t he whole class/group/set/population of those who follow the Muslim path is absurd and hypercritical, and perhaps more of a self-satisfying fulfillment than an actual observation.

But don't choose me as the straw man to fulfill your fantasy about bigotry. That dog won't hunt.

A

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:45 PM

"He doesn't have to say 'Muslim' because we know exactly who Nathan is referring to, don't we?"
Well, this half of 'we' has said twice now that's not how -I- read it... Obviously you and I don't read it the same way, right...

Yet once again....

"The hatred is for the societies and environments that permit
such madness, such disregard for life, such extreme religious
fervour to breed and to bloom to create armies ready to die for
their god, spreading death..."

Sounds like the whole world to me... Name me one place in the world the above doesn't apply to...

"Nowhere in that post does Nathan exhibit one iota of compassion or empathy for the Muslims"
Near as I can tell, the post isn't ABOUT Muslims... So why would he?

"...I'm guessing you don't want to get why I perceive that statement... as a racist..."
Oh sure I -want- to get it... and I think I got sorta a handle on it... and I still think you're reading YOUR agenda into Nats post... And I think you're wrong...

So we disagree... so what? I don't hold it against YOU...

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:08 PM

Or me you. But it sure as hell looks like the horse is dead now.

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:17 PM

K... so... let have this locked and move onto the next thread!

LOL

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: Amergin
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:23 PM

I would just like to say, Gues tthat there was nothing racist in my post and if you drew racism from that comment, maybe then, YOU and not I are the racist jerk. YOU were the one that mentioned Muslim not I. I was talking about the conditions that breed terror not what faiths breed it not what race/creed or colour these groups may consist of. Terrorist organisations are like gangs. They do not gain their membership from contentment. They search for those who are lost and angry. They search for those who have a need to belong and a need to vent their anger, even if it is in a negative way. People need answers and these groups give them answers. People need to feel like a part of something bigger than themselves and these groups give them that too. People need a way to excorsise their anger and so these groups give them a scapegoat.

As for your assertion that I have never met a Muslim person in my life is dead wrong. I have met many and talked with many Muslims over the years. Many of them were emigrants from Africa and the Middle East, some of them were even from Indonesia, all of them were naturalised citizens and happy to be so. they were very closeknit especially with their family, a thing coming from my own background I can very well understand.

Thirdly, my current anger at this situation is directed at the politicians adn the businessmen who invoke 9/11 to line their own pockets, by getting us mired in to foreign wars, both of which show no sign of ending anytime soon. it is also an anger at the death count still rising consistantly, those few terrorists did not just murder those 3000 + people that day, their murderous rampage is still going on, the death toll rising daily on all sides.

Lastly, this is not intended as a self pitying maudlin piece directed at making people feel sorry for me. This is a way for me to finally come to terms with that tragedy. I have been attempting to write something intelligent on this for three years, and just the other day I have finally done it. All previous attempts failed. I have finally said my piece and I stand by it, and no attempts by you, sir, will subvert my desire to do so. As I said before You, sir are the racist jerk, spouting racist lies, by making your assumptions about my piece and about me, and by pinning the title of racist jerk on my breast. If it is racism to hate poverty, greed, murder, despair, loss, and lies, all of the things that contribute for this current madness on spreading on our globe like a cancer, then I will wear that title proudly.

Thank you very much.

Nathan Tompkins
Racist Jerk Extraordinaire

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 06:52 PM

Oohkaaay. Anybody else need to take another whack at the horse?

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: JennyO
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:42 PM

Now you have it straight from the horse's mouth, GUEST. Do you get it now? Toldja so.

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:22 PM

I'm sticking to my guns, JennyO. I have nothing to apologize for to Nathan, you or anyone else in the thread. But gee, "I told you so"? How old are you? Thirteen?

Subject: RE: In Remembrance
From: GUEST,Jeaniekoala (Nathan's Woman)
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 01:30 AM

Im sure JennyO is old enough to admit when she is wrong and apologise when she is a fool unlike urself Guest who doesnt even have the guts to name themself... with ur comments I would remain nameless too, to save myself from embarrassment.

Nathan spoke from his heart, u just try and trash his words and throw it in his face. I dont think that is very nice of you.