BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER

Subject: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: GUEST,Bev and Jerry
Date: 31 May 05 - 11:43 PM

In Tuesday's press conference, Bush was asked, "Mr. President, recently, Amnesty International said you have established "a new gulag" of prisons around the world, beyond the reach of the law and decency. I'd like your reaction to that, and also your assessment of how it came to this, that that is a view not just held by extremists and anti-Americans, but by groups that have allied themselves with the United States government in the past -- and what the strategic impact is that in many places of the world, the United States these days, under your leadership, is no longer seen as the good guy.

Bush's reply was, "I'm aware of the Amnesty International report, and it's absurd. It's an absurd allegation. The United States is a country that is -- promotes freedom around the world. When there's accusations made about certain actions by our people, they're fully investigated in a transparent way. It's just an absurd allegation.

In terms of the detainees, we've had thousands of people detained. We've investigated every single complaint against the detainees. It seemed like to me they based some of their decisions on the word of -- and the allegations -- by people who were held in detention, people who hate America, people that had been trained in some instances to disassemble -- that means not tell the truth. And so it was an absurd report. It just is."

The main thrust of the AI report and the entire thrust of the question was about illegally imprisoning people without a trial, not about torturing people. To say that the report "is absurd" is entirely untrue.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 05 - 11:48 PM

My Gawd. Why is he allowed to speak in public?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 12:06 AM

I CAN THINK OF SOME ASPECTS OF HIS ADMINISTRATION THAT DESERVE DISASSEMBLY...



A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: heric
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 12:12 AM

Gulag is a rather inflammatory, loaded term. I haven't seen it in context, but if the report used that term, and the authors wanted to be taken very seriously as professional, credible reporters, I hope they explained their intended analogy. Sure, these detention facility pose the risk of impounding people for their beliefs alone (though that has not been proven to my knowledge), and in that sense they could be mini-gulags. But they are not used for forced labor, they are not used to terrorize millions into acquiesence (some of you will disagree), and they have not been used to kill millions of people.

If this a gulag for our times, we live in relatively good times.

There is enough wrong around here to obviate any need for hyperbole.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 12:47 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Pauline L
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 01:04 AM

Amnesty International is a very highly respected, Nobel Peace Prize laureate. Bush was entirely wrong about "absurd allegations." AI was alluding to the exportation of suspects to countries where they can be tortured. It is disgusting action by our country, which claims to be the champion of freedom and democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 02:09 AM

heric - a gulag can be used simply as a term for a political prison or a prison for dissenters. It doesn't have to be a forced labour camp. When used by Amnesty International, I think they intended it to mean a network of political, prison camps. If the shoe fits, wear it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: heric
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 03:09 AM

It is illegal to detain them under US law unless they were "enemy combatants." They have a legal right to challenge this determination in US courts. If they are being held for political views only, then the US judiciary will have to be in league with the military, in direct violation of the law. That's a grand conspiracy.

Beyond that, they are foreign nationals of up to forty different countries. Once it is reported or reasonably confirmed that one of them was wrongfully and intentionally held for political views only, then you will be one step towards justifyingly calling this a "gulag," but you will still need 2,999,999 more such cases, where they also DIED in custody, before this can be equated with the true gulags of the brutal, authoritarian Stalinists who were intentionally and legally terrorising their own citizenry to suppress dissent. Just seems a bit of a stretch, to me.

Don't bother calling me an apologist for detention without representation, as the Bush administration wanted, and held onto for a while. Or a supporter of torture. Those are each disgraces of the highest magnitude. I'm just saying that the use of hyperbole is counter-productive. If AI is working to prevent or remedy political incarceration, good on them. Guess we should see the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 03:40 AM

Those held outwith the mainland US and in particular those held in the Guantanamo Bay 'concentration camp' [that a better description Heric?] have no access to the American court system and therefore no abilty to challenge their detention in the courts.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: heric
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:02 AM

sorry, giok. Guess I read the newspaper wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 07:51 AM

Ya know, like who really cares, any way? No, I mean that veryseriously. The Anerican people who are ridin' around in their gas gizzlers with half a dozen "Support the Troops" ribbons on the back certainly don't... They are too busy consuming and going further in debt...

Hey, when Bush was asked about torture awhile months back he said that the "United States does not engage in or support the use of torture." Then we see grusome pictures on the front pages of our newspapers and then we learn about the Bush administartions use of renderings where, in essence, they sub-contract (privatize, if you will) torture by flying people they want tortired to places were the practice is accepted...

I mean, everyone knows how these folks lie yet too many don't realy care as long as it doesn't effect them personally...

And as fir the AI report there were also references to the United States settin' an international example and in using torture and deatining folks, in violation of US and international law, was sensing a message that these types of behaviors are acceptable...

Ywah, we need another Martin Luther King to come 'round and cpature the attention of the American people and turn this evilness that the American people have accepted around so that folks will yet again feel they do have the power within them to change their own hearts and change their leaders....

How did someone like a George Bush get here? Sad...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 07:56 AM

Well Bobert there is the theory that countries get the leaders they deserve!
G..

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 08:09 AM

Yeah, John, seems that theory is being proven out right here in the good ol' US o' A...

That's what I meant by my comment about the country needing another Martin Luther King go shock us out of the downward spiril we seem to be in when it comes to morality...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 08:38 AM

having said that..............gulag?

surely anyone can see that Amnesty's argument is weakened by this sort of comparison.

I'm an ex-member of Amnesty and I have a lot of time for it. Although I'm not sure it ever had much time for me. i wrote to them explaining that my life was depressing enough _ I didn't want to write to any prisoner - political or on death row, but I was willing to make a contribution.

However they spent more than my subscription(which I couldn't really afford at the time) every year on sending me letters asking for more money.

to most people gulag(whatever the literal meaning) means Stalin, Solzhenitsyn, etc, the murder of the Kulaks, Beria.....

This was a crime so big that there comes a point where quantitively it becomes qualitatively something quite distinct in everybody's mind. rather like the Holocaust. When we use those terms, we know of what we speak.

Whatever you think about Bush and the verbal chaos in which he exists, he's not damn silly enough to make remarks like that.

all the best

Big Al Whittle

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: kendall
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 08:54 AM

We who saw through this clown still wonder how come nearly half of the voters put him in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 09:14 AM

In the aftermath of Dubya's "tiumphant" tour of E. Europe, Putin has agreed to remove Russian bases hitherto maintained in Georgia against the will of the Georgians. Perhaps as a quid pro quo Dubya will remove US bases and gulags maintained in Cuba against the will of the Cubans.

RtS
(Georgia on my mind)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 10:28 AM

The "gulag" rhetoric may well have been overdone.

But the current crop of CIA charter flights and our net of prisons, detention centers and "out-sourced" torture sites is a national shame.

The Administration did not speak to the issues of fact, as usual; they believe in a universe created by rhetoric, where what you claim is what you get.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 10:41 AM

I think the folks who put those reports together need to sit down and carefully review their use of words. Not only was 'Gulag' overdone and provocative, it played into the hands of their opponents who will now hammer them with that word. Hey, if Bush can be hammered for 'crusade' then amnesty can be hammered for 'gulag'.

I'm still rolling my eyes ever since I heard Bush's use of the word 'disassemble', but that's beside the point.

I think by accusing the President of whopperism one similarly plays into the hands of the wordsmiths who lead the President and Ms. Rice through the mine-field of the battle of words that constitutes the far greater part of the current war. You take the attention away from the hard information in the report and contribute to the 'nyah nyah' aspect of things that suffuse the current environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 10:45 AM

We need a crusade to rid the World of gulags and put a definitive end to disassembling in high places! Who can we get to lead it?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 11:05 AM

Robo hit on on the head!

This thread again is just all about hating Bush.

If they would only hate Al Aqaida and Osama so much instead of licking his camel's balls and see that Iraqui insurgents are answering and being now led by them, they would realize that millions of people in the U.S. voted for Bush because he has been dealing with this vicious enemy.

But there are way too many morons here with web feet who are too stupid to realize that.

This thread is starting to get ready for a National League wrap-up. the Cubs have now won 5 straight.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 11:11 AM

Look, man, camels need love too!

Chongo is in ecstasy about the Cubs.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 11:11 AM

The administration has now typified this sort of report as; made by people who hate America.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 11:18 AM

Hakman, that is correct. And who can prove them wrong? If you want to get back to the real issues, you have to get back to the real issues!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Alba
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 12:12 PM

Little Hawk, Robomatic can I ask what the game is?
Have you designated yourself as the "Ones" to come in after Martin Gibson to just ruin discussions?
You must be the Friends that have been exchanging PM's with him and
I think that's great for you all but everyone has an opinion on topics in threads, that is what the forum is so why are going into nearly every thread that martin disagrees with the content of and trashing it?
I been looking in since saturday and that's all that's been happening here.

On topic..there is nothing that surprises me anymore from the Mouth of Geroge Bush..NOTHING.

Blessings to all
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 12:30 PM

Jude, I am tremendously opposed to George Bush's policies, as I should think you would know by now.

I also think that it is far more effective to respond to an unexpected contribution in a thread with a brief joke than it is to fly into an emotional fit of hostility and imagine that the thread has been "ruined" by a post that is outside what YOU consider the "proper boundaries". The thread has not been ruined in the least.

Why give your power away like that? How can one other person derail you or derail a thread? They can't...unless you consent to let them.

Martin is expressing a very different viewpoint to yours. So what? Is it impossible to maintain one's own equanimity in the face of a different viewpoint or a couple of swear words?

It is not impossible. Be the master of your own mind, not the emotional puppet who dangles on someone else's strings.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 12:44 PM

I think Jude was being obscure.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 12:53 PM

Heh! Heh!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: heric
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 01:10 PM

Giok: By saying that maybe I had read the newspaper wrong, I was giving you an opportunity to double-check and self-correct your assertion, but you didn't take me up on it. Gitmo (and similar)detainees have had a right to federal judicial review of their alleged enemy combatant status since June 23, 2004, by way of a Supreme Court decision against the Bush administration. Bush doesn't have as much power as Stalin had.

(But the current crop of CIA charter flights and our net of prisons, detention centers and "out-sourced" torture sites is a national shame. If you want to get back to the real issues, you have to get back to the real issues!)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Alba
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 01:32 PM

"I think Jude was being obscure"
Nope I don't think I was. I think I was pretty clear in my question.
Obscure..mmm interesting response.
I would however rather be seen as obscure rather than being obtuse.
Glad my question brought some fun into your Day lads.
Thanks Little Hawk for taking the time to post your opinion.   
I am most definetly the Mistress of my own Mind, I don't think the same can be said for George Bush though:>)
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Alice
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 01:36 PM

I heard this the other day on the radio when Bush made the statement... I was driving along listening to the news, Bush's voice comes out, and although this subject is very serious, I burst out laughing at his attempt to define "dissemble" after he said "disassemble". What a guy.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 01:57 PM

The Amnesty International Report DID NOT USE THE WORD GULAG. What we pasted into the first post on this thread was taken from the white house transcript of the press conference. IT WAS THE WHITE HOUSE WHICH PUT THE PHRASE "A NEW GULAG" IN QUOTES, thereby giving the impression that it was a quote from the AI report. Yet another lie.

And, Heric, your absolutely right that "Gitmo (and similar)detainees have had a right to federal judicial review of their alleged enemy combatant status since June 23, 2004, by way of a Supreme Court decision against the Bush administration." However, it's been nearly a year and not a single prisoner has been allowed to exercise this option due to stalling on the part of the Bush administration.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: heric
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 02:18 PM

That's good news about the AI report. (I'll read it now.) But it was the reporter at the press conference who caused this kerfuffle with inflammatory language (right?). (Not that Bush's immediate responses to anything ever mean anything - I can't even be bothered to watch him anymore.)

That's bad news about the stalling on judicial review. Justice delayed is justice denied, as they say. (Espcially if you happen to be being subjected to prison abuse.) Another real very real issue issue at hand, then. (I wonder if they will have legal (cash) remedies down the line for intentional delay - probably not.)

Thanks for the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 02:44 PM

I'm not trying to make Amnesty International out to be a 'bad actor'. I think it is a useful, vitally important organization and I even like the fact that they are unafraid to speak out.

The use of the word 'Gulag' apparently comes from a speech which can be found here:
Amnesty International

Whether or not the term is used in the AI report I know not.

The speakers need to know the political spin machine they are up against.

Jude, I took advantage of your name but I meant what I said. I truly did not understand your reference against LH and me, or if you were being serious or not. You made a remark about my showing up in other forums and possibly shadowing or being shadowed by MG. I just didn't understand what you were saying because you spoke obliquely, which is close to being obscure. I still don't know if you were serious, trying to be funny, saying that I always agreed with MG, didn't agree with MG, or what the heck you were on about. I notice that MG actually said something nice about me in this thread, so maybe you are punishing me for that. If you in fact look at my posts which do occur in some threads that MG has posts in, you will see that I often encourage people to ignore MG's more pungent prose.
Being asked what 'my (and LH's)' game is sounds a lot like me asking you when you stopped beating your kid. You are welcome to suppose what you want as to my motives, but in resorting to ad hominem instead of addressing the actual point (and I do have one) is not helpful to the thread.

But keep posting. I'm a little slow and eventually I may pick up on your meaning!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Alba
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 02:57 PM

I will except your offer to suppose what I want then.
Thank you
Regards
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: heric
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 02:59 PM

Oh, well the speaker (Kahn) did circumscibe her use of the term, and sounds quite reasonable in this middle-length excerpt:

Guantanamo has become the gulag our times, entrenching the notion that people can be detained without any recourse to the law.

If Guantanamo evokes images of Soviet repression, "ghost detainees" – or the incommunicado detention of unregistered detainees - bring back the practice of "disappearances" so popular with Latin American dictators in the past.

According to US official sources there could be over 100 ghost detainees held by the US.

In 2004 thousands of people were held by the US in Iraq, hundreds in Afghanistan and undisclosed numbers in undisclosed locations.

AI is calling on the US Administration to "close Guantanamo and disclose the rest". What we mean by this is: either release the prisoners or charge and prosecute them with due process.

By peddling the politics of fear and division, this new agenda has also encouraged intolerance, racism, and xenophobia.

In 2004 our Report recorded incidents of religious humiliation of detainees in US custody, growing anti-Semitism in western Europe, including France and Belgium, and Islamophobia in Europe and North America. Ironic that this should happen as we mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

Furthermore, the US, as the unrivalled political, military and economic Super Power, sets the tone of governmental behaviour world-wide. By thumbing its nose at the rule of law and human rights, what message does the US send to repressive regimes who have little regard for the rule of law anyway?

By lowering the human rights standards, the US has weakened its own moral authority to speak out on human rights.

By actively supporting repressive regimes as allies in the War on Terror, US, the EU and others actually promote greater insecurity. Uzbekistan is a case point. Belated calls for transparency and accountability cannot hide their earlier support and silence on human rights abuse by Karimov's government.

Throughout 2005, AI has also highlighted the double speak of the EU member states. They undermine their own credibility when they open dialogue on human rights with Iran, China, and Egypt but deafeningly silent on Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. It throws doubt on the EU's ability and willingness to provide a genuine value-and rule-based alternative leadership.

However, despite the failure of leadership from key governments, the new agenda was not without opposition in 2004. The voices of resistance and positive developments gave us hope and energy.

For instance:

· Judgements of the US Supreme Court and the UK House of Lords
· The tide against impunity in Latin America.
· New ratifications to the International Criminal Court.
· Continued abolition of the death penalty – though a lot still remains to be done - bringing the total number of abolitionists to 84.
· Initiatives to reform the UN security and human rights machinery.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 03:07 PM

gu^.lag

The System of Prison, Labor and Concentration Camps Spread across the Soviet Union. Officially most were "corrective labor colonies." Rooted in the exile in Siberia system of the tsarist period, the GULAG was organized by the Communist government in 1918 and vastly expanded under Stalin. GULAG is a Russian acronym for a department of the secret police, "chief administration of corrective labor camps."
www.pbs.org/redfiles/prop/inv/prop_inv_voc.htm

A system of penal institutions in the Soviet Union est'd after the 1917 Russian Revolution . The name comes from the Russian acronym for the Chief Administration for Corrective Labour Camps. Under Stalin an estimated 10 million were sentenced to forced labour in the camps in the period between 1934 and 1947 alone. These prisoners were suspected of crimes against the State (anything from political dissidence to failure to co-operate with Stalin's collective programme). Millions of inmates died from cold, disease, malnutrition and summary executions.
www.embassy.org.nz/encycl/g4encyc.htm

a Russian prison camp for political prisoners
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn2.1

Gulag (from the Russian ÃÓËÀÃ: Ãëàâíîå Óïðàâëåíèå Èñïðàâèòåëüíî— Òðóäîâûõ Ëàãåðåé, "Glavnoye Upravleniye Ispravitelno-trudovykh Lagerey", "The Chief Directorate [or Administration] of Corrective
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 03:24 PM

Alba, you wrote:
I will except your offer to suppose what I want then.
Thank you
Regards
Jude

Once more you are ob- er, not totally clear. Either you are trying to be cooperative with a small portion of my immediately preceding post, or you are being ironic, or you are NOT being cooperative, all dependent on your use of the word 'except'.

You could mean it literally, i.e. you are 'excepting' and not 'accepting' my offer.
You could mean it ironically, i.e. indicating that I put myself above my station by deigning to offer you terms on which you might respond to my thread.
You could have had a brain fart and put 'except' down as a near homonym for 'accept'.

In any case, you are, perhaps unconsciously, making out President look that much less like an ass. So maybe not so much unconscious as ironic.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Alba
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 03:47 PM

"You could have had a brain fart and put 'except' down as a near homonym for 'accept'."
yip that's it..I meant accept not except...brain fart, no irony intended.
Just as I am sure you meant 'Make our president', not "making out President"
I will accept your offer to suppose what I want then.
Regards.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:05 PM

chimps- shatner- cubs- it's getting boring. When people have nothing to say why can't they say nothing?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:09 PM

Here's what we can do....


Turn 'em all loose and have them build houses in Bev and Jerry's neighborhood. Maybe they can invite Bobert,heric, Alba, Donuel, Amos, kendall, Giok, dianavan, Pauline L and brucie over on friday nights for tea and lessons on how to kill the American swine.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:13 PM

Hey, wait a minute, SH! Am I not to be invited?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:15 PM

I'm sorry Ebbie,


You're the entertainment!


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:18 PM

Hey that sounds like a pretty good neighborhood !!

Ebbie - You bring some potato salad, I'll fire up the grill and make some jerk chicken - now - who can bring the beans and some salad??

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: heric
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:24 PM

I'll play folk saxophone and maybe would could ask Rapaire to bring his trumpet for some folk duets!

This thread was too serious, wasn't it? Time to get back to standard fare. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:27 PM

Dear SH:

"Turn 'em all loose and have them build houses in Bev and Jerry's neighborhood."

What bullshit, even from you.

1) You are making the assumption these folks are guilty--without trial.
2) I would love to meet the people in whose august company you have put me, and bloody well include Ebbie.
3) Stop sticking up for every damned-fool thing that idiot says. It makes you look just as stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:31 PM

PS, Susu's Hubby,

It just struck me that Bev and Jerry might object. I am a real orangutang at the best of time.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:31 PM

Sleepless Dad, SH can bring the beans. Only fittin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: heric
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:34 PM

I want susu's hubby to come and teach us Methodist dancing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:37 PM

Do you know why Baptists don't have sex standing up ?

It looks like dancing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:56 PM

We'd love to have those folks build houses in our neighborhood but there's a building moratorium here due to lack of water. However, y'all can come and visit us anytime. Even you, Brucie - orangutans are OK with us. Even Susu's Hubby is OK - we could use a few laughs.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 05:17 PM

I wasn't invited, either. I don't have Amos' stamina to keep a jeremiad running against Dubya but that's because I get such a sinking feeling when I read much about the jerk that I just have to turn away from it.

They're building in my village, if that's any consolation (though we wish they wouldn't--losing 200+ acres of prime prairie is blow to our way of life and long walks!)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 05:17 PM

Who says we'd be using any water ??

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:08 PM

I would go but I wasn't invited.

besides they would probably just serve tofu or something of a mucous texture similar to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:15 PM

Bev and Jerry, may I come to the party too?

I can bring some sweet potato pies and join in the discussion about how to make the world a better place for all our children and our children's children.


Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:31 PM

azizi Ihave never had a sweet potato pie. I'll trade you a strawb'ry rhubarb pie for't!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:37 PM

Sure you can come, Azizi. You can even bring your children's rhymes.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 09:12 PM

Bev and Jerry, I'm in!!

And I'd have fun learning some of the rhymes you two share!

Robomatic, you've never had sweet potato pie?! Well, I've never had strawb'ry rhubarb pie.

Sweet potato pie taste like candied yams with a bottom pie crust. It's almost like pumpkin pie, but I think sweet potato pie taste better.

Of course, while we'd have all this food and fun, the real reason for us coming together would be to discuss what we can do to help make the world a better place.

We'd be about serious business.

[And wouldn't it be great to meet all of you!]

Thanks, Susu's Hubby for the idea!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 10:27 PM

Can we have a peanut butter pie too ? Or maybe Key Lime ? Mmmmmm....

The world would at least LOOK better after some Key Lime pie.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 10:41 PM

I must have lived a deprived life 'cause I never had peanut butter pie {are you making this up?} or key lime pie.

So am I'm missing something???

And why is it that everytime I read this thread title I think of McDonald's Whoppers??? [or whatever franchise it is that makes those large hamburgers].

I guess the mass media successfully connected the word "Whopper" and the image of a large hamburger in my brain. But they didn't make a sale, since I don't eat beef.

But getting back to the thread topic, IMO, Bush told another whopper, and mispronounced another word while doing so.

Unfortunately, this subject is far from being a laughing matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 11:09 PM

Recipe for Key Lime Pie

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 11:32 PM

Okay-thanks for the recipe for Key Lime pie.

But is there really peanut butter pie?

Hmm- I may have to pass on that one.

And to tell you the truth, I'm really not too keen on trying the strawb'ry rhubarb pie.

It's that word 'rhubarb'. That word is messing with my mental image of what a that kind of pie would taste like. "Rhubard" sounds too much to me like rubbish'. And for a picky eater like me, that's all I need to say "no thanks".

I'm the least adventurous eater I know.

But I will defend anyone's right to eat peanut butter pie, and strawb'ry rhubard pie and even [ugh!]liver and onions, and
[double ugh!] chittlins- as long as you don't expect me to eat them too.

After all, it's still a free country, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 12:04 AM

However, it don't matter how ya slice it, George W Bush can't speak English. The man is a walkin', talkin' Spoonerism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 12:09 AM

I like the transition from talking about food to "how ever ya slice it" and SPOONerism"

Nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 12:39 AM

Thank you, Bev and Jerry, for your usual insightful commentary.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 01:30 AM

What salad goes best with jerked chicken? Potato salad, macaroni salad or a fresh, organic green salad? I'll bring all three if you will be bring all of the pies mentioned above. Sweet potato is my favorite! Rhubarb pie is yummy but crumble is better. Yes, peanut butter pie is delicious but I should mention that what I have eaten is a peanut butter cheesecake. Unbelievably good, especially with a drizzle of chocolate! Lets party! Go ahead and invite Martin if you want but please tell him to leave the whoopie cushion at home.

heric, you are too funny! A Methodist dance? Reminds me of a whistling penguin or maybe they just march around in a circle doing the goose step. It really hard to imagine and I know Methodists! No way! I'm not sure they are even allowed to hand jive.

...but back to the thread. It just goes to show you how the term 'gulag' or any other term can be distorted, taken out of context and twisted to serve a specific purpose.

I have found that Amnesty International is a very reputable organization and actually has some credibility. I hope they continue to do the good work that they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: open mike
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:19 AM

it was just a play on the title of this book:
Jude the Obscure by Thomas Hardy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Alba
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 04:53 AM

***bg*** Open Mike
Sometimes situations may seem to require 'desperate remedies' but I find a spell 'under the greenwood tree' helps to get me 'far from from the madding crowd':>)
Blessings
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:49 AM

Off-topic.

I woke up to the thought that I may have inadvertently offended Robomatic and Sleepless Dad earlier in this thread.

Robomatic and Sleepless Dad, I want to publicly offer my sincerest apologies to you for downputting the dishes that you would be bringing to that [imaginary] Mudcat gathering.

I'm truly sorry. I meant no disrespect. I know that I have to learn to be open to new ideas and new experiences, including food and deserts that I've never tasted before.

So if that I was priviledged to attend a covered dish gathering that Bev and Jerry or any others hosted to talk about serious subjects,
I would bring my sweet potato pies. But instead of settling for that dessert which is already known to me, I would have a slice of strawberry rhubard pie and a slice of peanut butter pie, and a slice of Key lime pie.

And I'd probably love them! Of course, I'd have to triple my exercise the next day, but oh well!!

Peace,

from Azizi, who is trying to 'be all that she can be'.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:04 AM

Oooh! I just realized that "be all you can be" is a slogan for the USA Marines or Army....

I wasn't trying to be snide by using that remark. I meant it to be taken in its larger spirtual sense.

Sorry again,

Azizi {who means well but sometimes exhibits the characteristic
       Sagittarius foot-in mouth; act before you think it through
       trait} *


* I'm sure you caught that this is an astrology reference. I'm very interested in astrology; and I don't mean those sun sign newspaper column versions.

At the gathering we're planning {imaginary or real}, after we've figured out what we individually and/or collectively can do to save & improve the world, could we have side discussions about lighter discussion such as astrology?

Azizi

PS- disregard that 'that' in the 5th paragraph of my last post.
It's not suppossed to be there.

Thanks.

:O)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Alba
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:22 AM

As a fellow Sagittarius Azizi I can understand the "foot in mouth" thingy that accompanies our Sun sign:>)

My moon in Libra makes me try to avoid it !!! but then my Scorpio rising doesn't assist in doing so ***bg***

I've decided I would bring a Chocolate Praline Pie that I make.
Ill try just about anything in the pie area. Strawberry/Rhubarb, Key Lime and Peanut butter yum!

The Sweet Potato pie sounds delish...I love Sweet Potato
So it would seem this gathering would not only be of Mind and Music but also a gathering of a few inches on the waistline...oh well you only live once (maybe)

Brightest Blessings to ALL
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:47 AM

Alba, in the interest of sharing, I have an Aquarius moon and a Virgo rising. I also have Neptune in Libra and a Scorpio South node etc etc etc.


And I believe in reincarnation!!!

If we ever met [in this life], we'd probably have much to talk about.

:>]


Peace,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:01 AM

Wow, one minute we're talkin' about "The Lies of Bush" and the next plannin' fir a picnic... Well, personally, I like the idea of a picnic a whole lot more than either listenin' to Bush lie or talkin' about it...

...so first of all, grandma's potato salad goes with pulled chicken jus' fine... Got big chucnks of taters an' ain't all runny like them store-boughten's.... Yummy....

Now still bein' the resident hillbilly you can count on me fir the my usual "Bobert's Possum Stew" which has won many an award in it's day... BTW, it's all in the freshness of the possum... I just leave some cat food on the back deck and the little buggers come right up to the kitchen door...Pratically climb into the pot.. Now that is fresh... No road kill fir me... No sir.... 'er mam either... Yummmmmeeeeee......

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:25 AM

While a Siberian prison labor camp differs vastly from a Carribean torture/interrogation facility, if we can have a Drug Czar we can certainly have an American Gulag.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:05 AM

I don't believe that our digression to topics of food was meant to minimize the importance of the real topic of this thread.

It's just [with me anyway], that these topics are so heavy duty that sometimes I feel the need to take a brief break from the heaviness and so that I can return to it again dedicated and recharged.

Peace,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:21 AM

On the food thread. I took no offense to Azizi's reluctance to try pie with rhubarb, and mentioning that the very sound of the word had influence. I thought that was very honest and perceptive.

Notwithstanding Shakesepeare's observation in Romeo and Juliet that: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"* we are very motivated by impressions created by sounds. I think that is half the success of French cooking. Would you rather have cooking or cuisine? Would you rather have chicken in wine sauce or coq au vin?

As for rhubarb, I came late to that party. I was a reluctant eater when young, only ate white bread, broiled chicken, and meat had to be done to the level of bricquette (I can't get away from the French in this post!). A visit to the Soviet Union and I came back willing to pretty much eat anything. My Mom was ready to write a thank you letter to Brezhnev!

An attractive lady of Anglo pursuasion got me to eat rhubarb. "The secret," she said as she batted her eyes, "is sugar."

Lots of sugar. Diabetic coma inducing heaps of sweet sweet sugar.

But rhubarb is a big friendly Northern plant. I've seen Tryffid sized examples in New Hampshire. In Alaska there is a wild variant that grows herb-sized on the tundra. Or at least that's what I was told I was eating on the trail. Mixed with strawberries and thickened with a little corn starch to adjust viscosity, it makes the grandest pie in the world, MORE American than apple pie.

and at one time I made really really great pies.

Anyhow, Azizi, no need to 'pologize. But if you're in humble pie mode (!) I'd sure like to have your recipe for sweet potato pie including explaining to me the difference between sweet potatos and yams <= I sense an entire thread could be devoted to that little matter.





*I modestly claim to have improved on Shakespeare by my own couplet: 'A rose by any other name would stink the same' Mine rhymes!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 11:37 AM

Thanks Robomatic!

I thought it might be more appropriate to post a recipe for sweet potato pie HERE on the current thread on "Hominy Grits and Greens."

Enjoy!


Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 02:47 PM

If I had to choose between a piece of sweet potato pie and a piece
of strawberry-rheubarb pie....
I wouldn't;
I'd manage to eat a piece of each one.
          Dean

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: GUEST,Susu's Hubby
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:17 PM

While keeping with the food theme and speaking of WHOPPER'S,
has anybody seen that now you can buy, in a bottle, the same flavoring that Burger King uses to give your burgers the same open flame taste?

With Susu killing the cow, afterall, I'm thinking up new ways of cooking all this beef I now have.

Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:31 PM

Marinate in garlic, onion, soya sauce and red wine--no more than a 4 in sweetness. Marinate for 12 hours. Dry thoroughly. Barbeque.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:32 PM

But SH, even YOU gotta admit that Bush can't talk the language.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: jaze
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:12 PM

Azizi, you would LOVE Key Lime Pie. It's the best--cool.light and tropical. Now save me a piece of the Peaut Butter Pie, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:58 PM

It just occurred to me-if Bev and Jerry hadn't used a word that reminds some people of FOOD {e.g. WHOPPER}, then maybe we'd have stuck to the real issue of this thread.

But let the record show that it was Susu's Hubby's post of 01 Jun 05 - 04:09 PM that started this thread drift to food when he said:

"Here's what we can do....

Turn 'em all loose and have them build houses in Bev and Jerry's neighborhood. Maybe they can invite Bobert,heric, Alba, Donuel, Amos, kendall, Giok, dianavan, Pauline L and brucie over on friday nights for tea and lessons on how to kill the American swine."

-snip-

Notice that Susu's Hubby wants people to gather together to learn the best methods of killing American PIGS.

I guess since his Susu ran over that cow, SH wants to make sure people are more careful about the destruction of animals.

American pork lovers, sausage & hot dog makers, and the fast food industry will appreciate Susu Hubby's concern for how their WHOOPERS ended their lifes.

Even though I haven't eaten pork in 40 years or more, I applaud you, Susu's Hubby, for caring so much about the lowly American swine, those filthy, dirty oink oink beasts.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:08 PM

But, Azizzi: (warning, more thread drift...) For decades all the insulin used for diabetics came from pigs. A whole lotta people,
including one I'm addicted to cuddlin' up to, wouldn't be alive if
it weren't for those dirty little oink oinkers. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 11:08 PM

Tom Paxton sings :

"Try try some peanut butter pie
If you don't think it's wonderful I want to know why,
It'll stick to your mouth till you can't say "Hi"
Try, try some peanut butter pie"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 11:38 PM

If Jerk Chicken comin' to the picnic, you gonna have to feed the Secret Service escort too.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:14 AM

I love the WHOOPERS, Azizi. :)

(I did get your subtle play on SH's words. Good on you.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:20 AM

When I first read the thread title I though he was going to say he'd found some WMDs in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:35 AM

This prejudice against pigs has got to stop! They are intelligent animals and are very clean.

Taboos are culturally imposed. I know a man who is not Muslim or Jewish but because he grew up in the Middle East, he will not eat pork because it is so deeply imbedded that it is unclean.

Perhaps when it became taboo, they didn't know that undercooking was the cause of medical problems. Who knows? I've always wondered about this particular taboo.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:43 AM

Whoops!

That was an unintented typo. At least I think it was.

I meant to say "Whoppers".

For the record, I meant NO coded meaning for the word "pig" as in the phrase "off the..."

I was talking about the oink oink filthy dirty animals. And
I acknowledge that those little piggies who go to market have their redeeming factors [not the least of which is the information about insulin that I just learned from Frogprince].

And Tia, I'm sure you probably know that there was a R&B dance called "The jerk" . There was also a dance called the "Chicken" and the "Funky chicken". There was also a dance called "The Monkey" and "The Slop".

Enough said.

Peace,

Azizi

PS:
Ebbie, back at ya!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:47 AM

Dianavan,

Pigs clean???!!

I'm a city girl but what I read about pigs doesn't sound clean to me.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Let's add that topic as a side issue to the more serious discussions that will occur at Bev and Jerry's gathering.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:51 AM

It's true, Azizi- given a chance, pigs are as clean as elephants. They have to protect their skins the same way. Sloppier eaters, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: LadyJean
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:56 AM

I wnt to a New Year's Eve celebration some years ago, in a home with a resident pig. She drank a glass of beer, then ran around grunting because there wasn't any more. I hadn't realized, until then, how very human pigs are.
So I will never call George W. a pig. He doesn't have enough class to be a pig.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 01:33 AM

My daughter had a Vietnamese pot belly pig given to her. His name was Hamlet. He lived with us for about a year in a city townhouse! He was very, very clean. He would never think of soiling the house. He would stay home all day alone and wait until we got home so that he could go to his box on the patio.

He was so clean, I was amazed! He ate a 1/2 cup of special food and that was it. He was so affectionate that he would get up on the couch and lay his head in your lap if you let him. He was also very sensitive. If you spoke harshly to him, he would sadly walk away and hide.

Needless to say, the neighbors were horrified. I could live with that but it was my son that couldn't deal with it. He found the whole situation disgusting, especially when the pig oinked and squealed.   Eventually, Hamlet went to a farm where I hope he lived happily ever after.

Hamlet changed my perception of pigs forevermore. I have had dogs and cats, chickens, goats, sheep and cows. Of all the pets, the pig was the cleanest and most intelligent.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 09:50 AM

My first reaction to reading this thread was to ignore it. Bev and Jerry are a bunch of brain dead lemmings.   They probably mean well, but have never had an original thought and have admitted in a thread they are too steeped in ideology to have any objectiving thinking.

The whopper that Bush told is that he discredited the AI report. WOW!   Incredible.   What a lie.   Lets put AI right up there with all the other liberal bastions of truth- Bill Clinton, Michael Moore, Dan Rather, Jesse Jackson, Ted Turner, Yasser Arafat, Howard Dean, Hulk Hogan, and Badgad Bob.   

Perhaps AI could have looked over the fence into Cuba.   How about an interview with Castro dissidents.   Might be hard to find them as they are all dead or imprisoned.   

If this is the best Gulag we could run, I would be very embarrassed.   When compared with Cuba, North Korea, Russia, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Cambodia, and many other countries too numerous to mention we should be embarrassed.   We are not even in the same class as the gulags for these other countries.   In the USA we strive to be number one in everything. I would venture to say we may not even be in the top 100 gulags in the world.   

The only reason AI can call us out, is because we are the only country that wouldn't have them executed for doing so.

For Bev and Jerry- Maybe next time we could have Bush bite his lip, get a little teary in his eye, wag his finger at the american people in a press conference and say "I never had torture with that insurgent, I feel their pain"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 11:57 AM

Yeah, but you gotta admit, they make really good ice cream.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 11:59 AM

96

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:13 PM

There is no perfect nation on earth.

When persons representing the United States do wrong, Americans who love their homeland should strive to correct those wrongs.

Not only should we admit we have done wrong, but we should stop doing that wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:17 PM

Excellent post, Larry K.

Obviously you are not Larry King on CNN. Heckofalot smarter.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:30 PM

Larry K, perhaps Bush might like a bit of the pain envisited upon Canadian, Maher Arar.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:34 PM

SURELY that isn't the best you can come up with...!!!!
Comparing Bush denying the information in AI's report to Clinton denying having a Blowjob.
Then again maybe it is if your record is anything to go by.
What between the two remarks would disturb me most.
1. I did have sex with that Woman
2. We do have prisoners who are tortured and kept without trial in a Gulag. Some Prisoners are even outsourced by us for Torture.
Now let me see...tough one.

#1 is my choice.

Forgive me if I do not even attempt to compile a list of Liars from the Right but one thing Ill agree with you on is that this Country under this administration does indeed strive to be number 1. In most of the World's opinion however we rank about 230 down that perfection list at the moment. You should travel more.
So I fear in starting a list of, let's not hurt anyone's feelings and call it 'names of right Truth benders' most People trying to get to the end of the 'names of right Truth benders' list would still be reading this post at midnight tonight.

As usual a rather pathetic argument comes from a Bush goon.

Off topic again and back to Food,

Now Ice Cream to go with all these Pies that have been mentioned previously.
That opens up a whole new discussion.
Do you make Ice cream Bev and Jerry? I personally do not like Ben and Jerry's Ice cream flavors. So if you do that would be an interesting Company name twist to market your Product. I would be willing to try 'Bev and Jerry's Ice Cream" if it was for sale.
I think Guest has something there.

Larry, sadly has not and never does but I am sure he will keep trying to make it right for the right.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush tells another WHOPPER
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:39 PM

Update regarding Maher Arar