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When does Folk = Not political music?
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 19 Jan 00 - 07:38 PM Lorne_M said: I have a great respect for people like Pete Seeger (Joan Biaz) and many other folk artists as far as their musical talents go, but it was Seeger's political musically-woven views that kept him blacklisted from televison for 17 years. Au contraire! It wasn't his political music-woven views that kept him blacklisted. It was the blacklisters' desires to throttle what they didn't themselves believe in. If an audience doesn't find a politically-oriented singer entertaining, no blacklist is necessary. But it's when an entertainer makes his political content really appealing, that's when the closed-minded blacklisters get scared and do their thing. Dave O.
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 19 Jan 00 - 08:56 AM o McGrath, Das Baxtalo: Nyees tuka, murra prala Devlessa Larry McGrath, Good fortune |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Jan 00 - 08:33 PM "We faced something terrible.Heaps of unburied bodies and unbearable stench. When I saw the suriviving Romanies, with small children among them, I was shaken. Then I went over to the ovens and found on one of the steel stretchers the half-charred body of a girl, and I understood what had been going on there." (Frederick Wood, later first president of the Gypsy Council in England, telling of his arrival at Belsen as a British serviceman. That comes from a book called "The Destiny of Europe's Gyspies", by Donald Kendrick and Grattan Puxon. Fot Gypsies the war was as bad as it was for Jews - but after it was over, the persecution didn't stop, and it still hasn't. And there has never been a Gypsy Spielberg to make a film to move the world, or strong and powerful people to call for this Holocaust to be kept before our eyes.
Here is another quote from the book, a song/poem:
U bar dikhila xoymi, oprundus,
The upright stone stares angrily
The roads where we still travel
But they are quiet, all are asleep.
Hush Gyspsies! Let them sleep
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Stupidbodhranplayer Date: 18 Jan 00 - 07:56 PM If less than 5%of your material is political, you'd think in a band of 6, the offended party could sit out. You're certainly not overdoing it. I would temper the repertoire, depending on the venue but not cut it out. Also, when somebody brought up the subject of drinking songs, there's something that's way overdone in Irish music. I'd rather hear a protest song, even one I find offensive than a whole program of silly drinking songs to make us appear even more foolish than we sometimes already do. Why reinforce an unfortunate stereotype Slan, Rich |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 18 Jan 00 - 04:38 PM Dear Pete: I would expect you have had both de jure and de facto protection of the Constitution. Roma have not, until the past few years, had those protections. For example, up until last year, Roma in New Jersey had to apply for a licence to live leagly in the state, even for native born Roma. There are counties, such as Bates and Leesville counties SC, which have and enforce bans against Roma entering the counties. These laws are not ancient vestigial laws, but have been written with in the past twenty years. It would take a long essay to explain to you the rights of encapsulated nations, such as American Indians, whoes rights are recognised and Roma whose rights are generally not, but to begin to understand, where ever Roma are, they are because they have been driven out of someplace else. In those places their right to be their has never been accepted, and so, they have maintained separate government. Internation law recognises that in cases where that government pre-exists the present government, some degree of autonomy is to be expected - the legal basis for federal indian law. Now, you are right this does not exempt them from personal taxation. However, when ones very existence, breathing the air of the land you live in is a crime, it is the rare individual that would pay taxes under that circumstance. In order to cure that conflict, as well as to provide the expectations which modern societies accept as rights, education and jobs, we must seek to understand the history which has alienated Roma and work a plan which accepts who they are as a people. Feel free to e-mail me for further disscussion as this is off the theme of this board and this thread, but I understand for most people who are barely aware of the existence of Roma, much of this seems like science fiction. Oh, one more thing - Yes! Do pay your taxes! (Even if you are Roma)! All the best (and here these songs live at Bagatelle - 12 Saint Marks Place NYC 8pm Wendsdays) Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Blind desert pete Date: 18 Jan 00 - 03:05 PM Gee larry I have some deeply felt spritual beliefs about [paying taxes too think I can get away with not paying them?If you dont pay your taxes your a criminal!Rom included. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 17 Jan 00 - 09:26 AM Well said GeorgeH: One of the only dissagreements I ever had with Burnadette McCaulsky, happened one evening over protectining the right to travel, for Irish Pavees. Your comment on blame ascribed to the victem cuts close to our disagreement. I felt at the time, and still do, that one must protect the right of nomadic communities to be nomadic, while removing the cultural barriers against them emergeing from the margins of society, so if they so choose, they may singly, or as a colective join the greater community - or not, but that their fate should not be governed by prejudice. Burnadette had an equally good point, that nomadism was a reaction to prejudice and did not need protections, but should be erradicated as soon as possible. I would be interested to hear her responce, now many years latter- as I know as much as I do about the harm done by forced assimilation under communism. As to your observation re: Brother Bridges comments about the Kosovar violence, I agree that one incident does a trend make, and there is a great danger in ascribing crime to a particular group. I go simple and throw things at the TV when I hear commentators refer to Gypsy Crime, for example. However, I would not go as far as to refer to his comments as racialization, in light of the very real concern when the members of a community are so in conflict that we all fear a flash point incident. I think this is much more his concern, (Sorry Richard, if I overstep, speaking on your behalf!) Well, on the overall message of the thread, I sang the Amadu Dialo song publicly last night for the first time, and it recieved a good responce. I hope it was for more than the pretty tune! Best to all Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: GeorgeH Date: 17 Jan 00 - 07:02 AM Guys, something's gone wrong here . . This thread was NOT about a single song, but about the general issue of "Folk" persons being politically committed. The song was cited as an example. Fine to discuss the song, or any other song, as examples, provided we don't lose sight of the central point. And I find the assersion that "there is Kosovar violence in England" offensive (on the basis of the evidence currently available and because of its inherent racism). Equally if not more offensive is the blaming the victims for their plight which is occuring (however mildly) at some points here. "Travellers" (of whatever flavour) choosing to live at the edge of society does not and never can justify acts of racist violence against them. It may be simplistic to say so (but, inevetably, much of the "analysis" of this thread IS simplistic) but "two wrongs NEVER make a right". In sorrow, G.
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 16 Jan 00 - 11:11 AM Dear Miguel: You said it all, and I can only add one thing my late father said... In answer to someone who quoted Winston Churchill to him, - if you are not a socialist by twenty you have no heart, and if you are a socialist after twenty you have no head, - My father said he agreed with the first half, and if the second half happens, you were never a socialist to begin with. If ever someone should be burned out! I have lost most of my lifes work and my career in law (save for a small corner of American Indian law) over my advocacy of the Gypsy community, however, I remain committed to speaking out against racist murder. It is part of who I am, just as Rabbitts friend who is Gay expresses that in his art. If we are not who we are - dyed in the wool, in our art, it is fashion and not art by definition. In many circles it is no longer fashionable to be a worker, but there is still too much tar under my fingernails, and I inherited the coal dust my father dug in my blood. Yes, this is no longer fashionable, now that the American worker has been caught sleeping while our ecconomic leaders sold the American means of production to the lowest bidder, giving so many in this country the choice of McJobs or other service work. Being a production worker makes it easier to understand the suffering of others, because you deal with real life, not some plastic world of the office and the fast food ghetto. Yes, I am passionate, because I have seen and lived what I write about and more, the lack of passion on the part of the rest of the world resulted in the destruciton of most of my mothers people in the middle of the century just passed. There is nothing that scares those in the class that own the resources - no have appropriated the resources of the world, than a passionate working class. Folk music has always expressed that passion, and I for one, even if alone on a street corner or subway tunnel, will continue to sing about the interests and passions of my class. No apologies, but best wishes Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Miguel Date: 16 Jan 00 - 06:24 AM Excuse me Brer Rabbit I marvel exceedingly at your clear implication that Larry's song has 'dehumanised' someone!! We all find bestiality and inhumanity in the story it tells. Did Larry put it there? Perhaps Goya was guilty of dehumanising Napoleon's troops when he painted their obscene crimes? Oops, I'm sounding passionate [for the moment]. If you're right passion will pass and I'll soon suffer activist burn-out and Larry will too. On the other hand it's just possible that those who see the agonies of humanity will continue tiring you out with their immortal outrage. And spit your bridle out. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Rabbit Date: 16 Jan 00 - 12:12 AM Hey, InOBU, I understand your position. I used to have a very good friend who was very active in gay rights for a long time. Then one day, as he told me later, he just "wanted to be himself." He still supported some major thigns, but he was far less vocal, far less obvious in the community. Just as a completely oblivious bystander who's read this thread I have simplified take: You are very passionate right now about Rom and ethnic suppression right now. People DO need to hear about such things. And such passion channeled and crafted in a song can help make it universal and moving. But 'unbridled' passion can often 'tire' people-- even people with the same viewpoint, as my long gone friend. I'm afraid your comrades weren't of the same passion. One thing more, dehumanizing others will never help a piece of art or song to last. Rabbit |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 15 Jan 00 - 10:47 PM Hi Richard: Interesting and upsetting that there is Kosovar violence in England. Here in NY the Serb and Kosovar refugees are not at all fond of each other, but there has not been violence. Roma, in that conflict, have been victemised by all sides. That is a whole story in itself, but generally, Roma are passifists, as, if they have not been changed by forced assimilation, one of the real human rights abuses of Communisim, (I am the first to say) killing is Mahreemay, unclean, and even killing in self defense gets one bannished from Vlax-Roma communities. Most of the Czech Roma are Vlax. They are not saying the violence in your case was done by a Rom, are they? I have heard that claims that Roma fought with the Serbs was not quiet the whole story, that some Roma were cooersed by Serbs to fight, however, I would not be surprised if some Roma did fight against the Kosovars, because Kosavars have been absoultly terrible in their treatment of Roma, however, I have not yet heard a confirmed story of a Rom choosing to fight with the Serbs. I have heard, however, of a Romani child almost pulled apart by a Kosovar mob in one of the camps. All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Jan 00 - 07:39 PM In Gravesend, Kent, England, there has been one murder and one attempted murder (well, OK, there have been no trials yet but one man is dead and another had his throat cut with a Stanley knife). These are attributed to Kosovan refugees. Indeed on the facts reported (if correctly reported) they were the work of Kosovans. I would not be surprised if we did see reprisals. Is this where a different take on the song starts? |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 14 Jan 00 - 07:47 AM Petr: As a small point of fact, the song does not advocate return to communism, and mentions the very great wrong of forced assimilation. The same band members who objected to this objected to songs about the forced assimilation of Natives in Quebec... You give much to much credit to the victims of Irelands new revisionist education system, when you assume they back Czeck policies on anything. I must say, I find it almost predicable that, when you speak to a Hungarian, where there is anit Roma prejudice, but real effort to make things better, (hence the best of the bad treatment according to Dr. David Crowe) those Hungarians I speak to begin by saying, yes Anti Roma prejudice is wrong, but... On the other hand, Czech and Rumanian racists begin by saying Yes we are prejudiced and here is why. I actualy sometimes do sing that verce as a skin head mob, however, one of my law clerks - an anti racist skin head, pointed out that the skin head movement is not universaly racist. One of the few things that can be said with complete accuracy about the men who killed Teresa, is that they were Czech. The complicity of the Czech courts after the fact in this racist crime, reinforces the rightness of that description. If writing a song about lynchings in the American south, when whole communities were involved, how would you describe them, whould you feel you had to mention the minority of townsfolk who were not involved? Now there has been a lumping together of leftists without reguard for leftist movements that were victemised by Stalinism, a very right wing movement hard to describe as Marxism. I have, in light of the tendency in this thread to lump the left into a monolith behind Soviet communism, to remind the readers that the American left was so involved in civil rights, so early, that the FBI branded anyone involved in civil rights a communist. In this particular instance it may be remembered that leftists spearheaded the anti lynching laws that NEVER were passed or became supported by the two factions of the single American capitalist party. OH BOY! Thats going to set me up for a storm of comment, eh? Petr, Havel himself has taken brave steps towards inclusion of Roma, however, it must be remember he signed the law, eventualy repealed, which denied citizenship to Czech born Roma. It also must be acknowledged that there has been great resistance to his leadership on the Roma question. Petr, have a laugh and check out my band, the post is InOBUs Band... you will see what I mean. All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Petr Date: 13 Jan 00 - 11:51 PM The thread was never about whether folk=political which is irrelevant anyway but rather why did band members refuse to perform this song. While it raises the valid concern of racism it is racist in itself by branding all Czech s as such. eg "'a Czech gang surrounded her" not a gang of skinheads or nazis. Equally it is offensive to those of us that lived under a repressive system by fondly looking back on the communist state - "revolution & counter revolution" especially when it was written by someone whos probably never lived under such a system. It never was a revolution but a coup detat, both my father and grandfather who were staunch communists quit the party when they saw what it became. Even as a child when Russian tanks surrounded my home town I knew the truth. Intolerance towards the Roma existed even under communism - they didnt 'allow' them to settle but rather forced them because a police state wouldnt tolerate the roving lifestyle they were used to. As you pointed out yourself the Roma themselves are partly responsible for being on the edge of society, refusing to put their children in school, not paying taxes etc. Canada was note exactly thrilled with the influx of hundreds of Roma last year after a Czech documentary ran a story on how easy it is to get into Canada claim refugee status and get welfare. The communist state clamped down on crime but after the velvet revolution Vaclav Havel released many political prisoners but unfortunately in the process pardoned many career criminals. The streets are not as safe as they were but this applies to everyone, not just gypsies. And sad to say that racism does exist there, towards blacks, the vietnamese (who came as workers in the 70s and others) It seems to occur often in homogeneous societies where little in-migration exists (eg In Japan where 3rd generation koreans can be have to carry a foreigner visa and can be deported, I was refused service on two occassions... "sorry Japanese only"') ignorance is the main cause. All that those are all problems that should be addressed and changed but certainly not by going back to a police state. By taking such an extreme view the song is rendered ineffective. No wonder people refused to sing it. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Terry Allan Hall Date: 13 Jan 00 - 08:29 AM InOBU... Excellent song! Sing it loud...and know that you may help the world by setting a good example. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Midchuck Date: 13 Jan 00 - 08:21 AM "I used to say, old hippies dont die, they go to law school, (like Country Joe McDonald), however, I think old lawyers dont die, we either open pool halls or return to our musical roots." I love it! Peter (An old lawyer returning to his musical roots, living in a State (Vermont) governed by old hippies who went to Law school and became bureaucrats). |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 13 Jan 00 - 07:44 AM Hi LEJ: The forced migration in the US is the result of a dynamic for which both Roma and the host comunity are responcible. In the US, there has been no recognition that the community exists here by any governmental organs, other than the police, most police deptartments treat the Roma as a criminal subculture rather than as a displaced national entity. Roma, on the other hand, because of a serries of deeply felt spiritual reasons, and fear of being sucked into the society, and fear of exposure, generally dont send their children to school, pay taxes, and many other things which make life in the US somewhat dangerous. Other than city council hearings in New York, organised by me... there has been no effort to understand these problems or deal with them, other than to attempt to remove the children from the homes, which is the primary reason for forced migration in the United States. My proposal was to recognise that Roma are a self governing entity, a nomadic nation, which, by the way have been here since before the constitution, so are an encapsulated nation, and there for, could have help from governments to set up the needed resources to build Roma schools, overseen by Roma, with main streaming in higher education. In the former communist contries, as my song points out, Roma felt forced migration took from them cultural rights, which I feel need not happen in a pluralist democracy. As to a patern of discrimination, two towns in the Czech Republic have voted funds to build walls around the Roma neighborhoods, bring back the walled Ghetto to Eastern Europe, and there have been some numerous murders of Roma, with little concern showed by the courts, which gennerally charge the killers with disorderly conduct, such as in the case of a man, who while walking his daughter home from a club ( he would meet her to assure she was safe from skin heads ) a gang through him under a truck. The court ruled it was the truck which killed him, not the act of beating him and tossing in a buisy street - similar to the ruling in the song above, also a true story, where the courts ruled the river killed Teresa, not the act of throwing her into the river. Richard! When you see the song Waile Waile Waileh, standing the test of time, I would not be surprised if one of yours surprises you, espcially if it is called for. Why, even Yvettes song, my song about Canadian forced assimilation of natives, quieted a noisy bar last night, so there is some hope for folk music with meaning! I only wish I didnt have to sing it myself, so I could consentrate on my piping! I used to say, old hippies dont die, they go to law school, (like Country Joe McDonald), however, I think old lawyers dont die, we either open pool halls or return to our musical roots. I hope all is well with your wife, that she is out of hospital. all the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Richard Bridge Date: 12 Jan 00 - 06:52 PM Hi again InoBU. An interesting thread, and this time I am close to supporting you (which may cause you concern) but I repsectfully submit that if you look at the songs which ahve become folk music (I'm not going to debate the definition here, just suggest some debaters go away and look it up, I've posted it before) have not only hypnotic scansion but a special quality of memorability of the words or tune. I don't write songs much, and the only one in current repertoire is indeed political, and it does get requested (more I think for the melodic hook in the first line of the chorus than the rest of it) but I don't think it will make the cut and still be there in 100 years. Too many people write impassioned songs and assume the passion is enough. WIth respect I suggest your songs lack that - compare Paxton's "the death of Stephen Biko". NOI. And if you want to understand the other side you should listen to any of the (no- longer fashionable) "OI" bands and many punks and post-punk skin bands. In the same way if you want to understand current disco music you have to relate it to E. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Max Date: 12 Jan 00 - 06:21 PM Refresh - THREAD OF THE WEEK |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 12 Jan 00 - 05:58 PM Larry... now, hold on. I am interested in debating those issues on which we differ, and I hope you do not read my comments as an attack. I DO believe in the right of a country's citizens to elect their government by popular mandate, and I also believe that no other form of government is as true a reflection of the human will. Do injustices take place in democracies? Invariably. Has the transition from dictatorship to democracy in Eastern Europe been disastrous? Absolutely. And it is through a revelation of the injustices, as in your song/story, that pressure may be brought to bear on those responsible. I don't agree with your assessment that the judicial system stands outside the political process- in many countries it is no more than the most effective tool of subjugation by which a repressive political regime deals with it's citizens. In the United States, the judicial process has certainly worked hand-in-hand with the elected government, and has for the most part reflected the will of the people in it's interpretation and application of that manifestation of the People's Will- the Constitution. I would be very interested to know more about the "forced migration" policy of the US government as regards the Rom. I'm unaware of it, and certainly would find such a thing an outrage. Additionally, I would never make the statement that all people in Czechoslovokia are better off since the collapse of the Communist government there. Yugoslavia is an obvious example of the fact that almost any governmental entity, no matter how repressive, is preferrable to anarchy and chaos. If the incident you relate is indicative of a wide-spread campaign against Rom, then we should all do whatever we can to stop it. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jan 00 - 05:18 PM I'm sure if you look around you'd find songs in the wake of the American Revolution where Native Americans were saying they got a better deal from the British than from the revolution. Which would have been true.
And that would be because it was a badly flawed revolution, which betrayed the principles on which it was supposed to be founded.
Most revolutions do that. That doesn't mean they don't have to happen. Every revolution needs another one to sort out the unfinished business. Most times that happens, the counter-revolutionaries try to get into the act. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 12 Jan 00 - 05:05 PM LEJ: My sentiments are quite simple, murra dekka janeh avin Berlod Rumania, Roma. My mothers people came from Berlod, Rumanina, Roma, and slaves. Even if that was not the case, my sentiments are quite easy to fathom, if a mob murders a young mother and the courts look the other way, the government which those courts represent have something to answer to himan kind. You obviously did not read my post very carefully, because I did not speak anything at all about a preference for a benivelent dictatorship, a supposition on your part when I say that Roma have been left out of Czech freedom, but rather I was very clear that courts, being a non-political un demoratic function of government, are in almost every instance the first and last bastion for the rights of hated minorities. This seems to be a very simple notion. The Czech courts and the masses of Czech citizens have, in their treatment of Roma, shirked a major responcibility of democracy. Do I think things were better under communism. I will give you some material for a good ripe ad hominum attack on me. The ONLY countries where there is mesurable literacy for Roma communities, and even some with graduate degrees, happen to be socialist or communist nations. Is that an endorcement of centralised governmental power, no, not at all, but, something was being done right that has been overlooked in many capitolist democracies. Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Scotsbard Date: 12 Jan 00 - 03:11 PM A fascinating thread, thanks to all for such interesting reading. Artistic rendering of "conflict" in any media, whether it be through words, sounds, images or shapes almost always adds energy to the expression. Conflicts involving love, humor or other personal issues have broad appeal, but some people identify very strongly with particular conflicts. Folk songs frequently draw on those sources of conflict, but expressions of harmony and happiness are also common. However, it often seems that songs of political conflict are among the best remembered. That perception may just be bardic tradition, with music and verse aiding memory, as parts of even the Iliad are pretty much lists of who killed whom when over what, or it may involve the emotional aspects of conflict as part of the human condition. For the disadvantaged in many historical or even current conflicts, folk songs have been a significant factor in preserving and communicating essentially oral traditions. In perhaps less oblique response to InOBU's topic, our fledgling folk/celtic group deliberately avoids singing of modern (within a century maybe?) political controversies. Our decision was partly to promote peace, partly to avoid alienating audiences, and partly because of personal choices about our style and repertiore. We sing for the beauty of the music, and feel no need to convey political messages. With regard to "Bread and Roses" ... as a song I find it wonderfully expressive of personal and political conflicts, but in no way offensive. Given proper performers and audience, it should be a captivating musical presentation. ps: ... thanks to InOBU for condensing what took me several weeks of reading on Roma into capsule form. The Revels production on their traditions is well worth seeing. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jan 00 - 01:43 PM No such assumption Bald Eagle - as I said, "Anything can be political at some time or place." Drinking songs are political when there's prohibition. Boy meets girl? All depends. I can see some of these as highly controversial in a situation where arranged marriages are on the politucal agenda. Songs about flowers. Like when they sing "Edelweiss " in "The Sound of Music." I quite agree you can distinguish between songs that set out to make some kind of political statement, and songs which don't. But come the time and the circumstances and the songs that didn't start off trying to be political can make enormously powerful poltical statements. "We Shall Overcome" was a hymn to start with. And still is.
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 12 Jan 00 - 01:36 PM Thanks for the song, Larry, and I agree with many others that it deserves hearing as a revelation of a specific wrong that was done, and as an example of the wrong-minded racism that is present in nearly every society. Having said that, I should also say that I think I know why your bandmembers quit. Your song does display a certain nostalgia for the "good old days" of repression of the Communist police state, as opposed to these treacherous days of freedom when the evil individuals of Czechoslovakia are free to express their pent-up racist urges. Is it the purpose of government to act as a restraint against the basic wicked nature of Mankind? Does terror and murder inflicted by a police state have a higher moral authority than that inflicted by the man on the street? I find incredible your statement that Democracy,representing the "Tyranny of the Majority", is a "crime against humanity." I assume from that statement that you would prefer a benevolent dictatorship. When was the last time you witnessed one of those? Whoever stated that your song would not have been allowed under the benevolent police state that ruled Czechoslovokia, had it right. The concern expressed in your song I find quite moving. The sentiments behind it are what I have a problem with. You have your right to sing it, I have my right to question your motives. That is, thank God, what Democracy is really all about. LEJ LEJ |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Ringer Date: 12 Jan 00 - 12:14 PM I find it a bit difficult to believe that when the guy had been KOed by the press-gang he'd say "Hang on a minute, just let me break this ring and give half to my sweetheart, who's standing right here wringing her hands...". OK, Larry, I submit to your great learning, but... Convince a man against his will, he's of the same opinion still. **BG** |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 12 Jan 00 - 11:12 AM Yankee doddle was a drinking song... Macaroni, meaning all done up fancy... a real ad homminum comment on colonial revolutionaries, a number of broken token songs are about press gangs - the slavery of the British navy, and yes there are many songs about the thrill and joy of the chase, but dont forget the penalty for killing the kings deer for a lot of our forebearers... Often we forget the political message because years make the references obscure, Did you know that the Johnney Faa ballads where about the Scotish genocide of Romanichales under James? Johnney Faa was the cheiftain of the Scotish Gypsies, when it was decreed that they must leave Scotland or the men would be hanged and the women and children drowned - and they were... thus all these strange little songs about Johnney ransoming a woman here or there, were songs about genocide. At the time they were as clear in their message as - dump the bosses off our backs, to tip a hat to Utah Phillips. Yes, we who come from singing families have a first duty to entertain, but, we also inherit a living historical tradition and role as the chronicalers of our age. I dont believe traditional music will survive in tact as a musium piece, because it will become irrelivant. Part of the chronical may be pastoral and intimate, but why is this generation so intent on censoring the public and political part of that chronical? By the way... I must admit one of my favorite, hunting\courting songs, sung in pubs when the kiddies go to bed is The Bonney Black Hare... Lets get this thread really blazing by poseing the question, is that a political ballad! (he said with a grin) Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Ringer Date: 12 Jan 00 - 09:47 AM I'm replying to McGrath of Harlow, his posting of 11-Jan-00 - 02:30 PM If you look at my earlier posting, you'll see that I say that, though you can probably find exceptions, in general the songs haven't got a political message. I'll agree that it might be possible for you to sing a hunting song politically today, but that's you with the political message, not the song; and I find it difficult to see how you'd sing broken-token songs politically at all. When I sing hunting songs (as I do, frequently), there's no politics at all: I'm singing them partly for the joy of singing, partly because the music is so fine, partly because most have a chorus that all can join in, partly because after a few pints "necessity is upon me" and I have to sing, and partly because I can take delight in my forebears' delight in the chase. From your lack of comment about my other 2 categories, do I gather that you agree that there's mostly no politics in drinking songs nor in boy-meets-girl songs? So, no, I'm not joking, and I stand by what I said. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 12 Jan 00 - 08:27 AM When I first decided to go back to school and study law, I was being interviewed for a job as a paralegal in a small firm that did a huge amount of political work. One of the two partners asked if I thought I was going to change the world in a court room. I told him, I more saw it as damage control on a sinking ship. He hired me. No song, or as Billy Bragg says in the Great Leap Forward, the revolution is just a t=shirt away, no t-shirt is going to change the world. But, as you see, cronicaling the age, either in a brief or a song, gets some talk going, as in the twelth century, when, the less powerful O Boyles, sand about the murder of their chieftain by the Norman MalMuirrins, (Tarlarch og O Boyle) Songs create the conversation which challenge us to think while we enjoy or beer (Och that I could still enjoy a beer!). The funny thing about all this, is that the supposition on the part of most posters is that there is resistance from the audience, actually, I have not had a bad comment from listeners, quite the opposite, but there is a fear among young Americans and Irish people to sing about wrongs, and I believe it is not because of the kind of burn out some of the folkies of my generation feel, but because of a social programing that began with Nixon and Regan and right wing republicans declairing war on social studdies in US schools, and the Conor Cruse O Brian-izm of Irish history in Irish school. (For Americans, the Cruser believes Ireland became a nation, not by war but by statesmans efforts in Ireland and England, amazing the view of the world when your head is up your - well never mind...) As always this has been more than helpful, thanks to all, and I will check out Mr. Lincoln. All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: GeorgeH Date: 12 Jan 00 - 08:09 AM Back there someone said "I frankly don't care to embrace every worthy cause out there". That frightens me. If a cause is worthy then we ALL must embrace it - in our hearts and minds even if we don't have time to work actively in the cause. And, of course, there's good and bad political song (and which is which is a matter of personal taste) - just as with every other type of song. And - clearly - some political song is much more "of its moment" than, say, a love song. But may the heavens save me from performers who don't really care about the subjects they sing about, and from performers whose cares don't extend into areas "political". G. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Owlkat Date: 12 Jan 00 - 06:20 AM Hi hi, I don't wanna sing, if it don't mean a thing. That said, there are times and places for the right song. I wouldn't do Masters of War in a bar, unless it was a request.(I admit to being a total slut when it comes to requests. I've played Puff The Magic Dragon in a biker bar. They asked. I played. What can I say?) You can be damned sure, however, that I will play The Band Played Waltzing Matilda at every Remembrance Day/November Coffeehouse. Politics is a part of folk/people's music, and it's part of the job to be political. Apolitical art is beige. It's a pleasant hue, but not one I'd put on a protest sign. Cheers Owl/Mart. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 12 Jan 00 - 01:38 AM Excuse me: the name of the thread is LYR. ADD: Mr. Lincoln. seed |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 12 Jan 00 - 01:35 AM Lorne M. spoke of Pete Seeger's blacklisting as if it were popular rejection of his political message--although McCarthy and HUAC and the corporate media managed to stir up enough anti-Russian hysteria to keep the people from demanding to hear Pete and other political singers, it was the record companies and the politically controlled concert halls and the networks and the by-then intimidated movie industry that denied the right of political artists to perform...it was not a matter of an inability to sell tickets and records that kept Seeger off television until the Smothers Brothers brought him on their show (which was cancelled by NBC not because of bad ratings--it was one of the most popular shows on television--but because of political pressure). Most people are like Faswilli: we like a good story. Great thread, Larry. Good to see so many of my friends deep in this discussion. --seed Now, if you're into controversy, check out "Dear Mr. Lincoln." |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Barry Finn Date: 12 Jan 00 - 01:01 AM I believe that prayer is for self change & not a prayer for the sober social world. I guess in some sense to some, music is like the movies, if one hears/sees enough of a certain scene/cause then we can become desensitized to it. I guess we need a little more gospel & a little less folk. Barry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: faswilli Date: 12 Jan 00 - 12:56 AM Barry, dont get me wrong, I may be cynical, but I do care about people. I care about historical events and chronicaling (sp?) , good vs evil, right vs wrong. but with the exception of voting now and then when something on the ballot affects me personally, I must admit that I usually react agains issues rather than come out for them. The folk revival died in the late 60's because it had become a forum for the new left. As a traddie, and student of historical folk, I'm not saying its bad or good it was just a shame.Study it ...dont preach it. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: ddw Date: 12 Jan 00 - 12:43 AM Maybe the Alcoholic's Anonymous prayer is the answer, Barry. I'm not sure it's verbatim, but it's something like:
God give me the strength to change the things I can, Maybe some of us older ones have finally hit the third line. david |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Barry Finn Date: 12 Jan 00 - 12:34 AM Kind of scary when those that know better no longer care, what chance for them that don't know & do care? Barry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: ddw Date: 12 Jan 00 - 12:31 AM Yea, faswilli — well said. david |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: faswilli (emerson) Date: 12 Jan 00 - 12:25 AM just came on.. wanted to say that my"folk" view has changed several times over the last 30 years. I was in what we called a folk group back in the 60's . We actually thought that if we sang what we believed it would make a difference. How naive we were! After a few years in the real world I wasn/t sure what side of the politcal fence I was on and it seems all of the folk genre was politically getting way out of hand. My guitar stayed it's case for 20 years and only recently have I returned to the folk music world. Many prefer to call it acoustic now. IN any event, after all these years, it occurred to me that all folk music is is a documentary of our time. It chronicles our attitudes and in this sense is not only historical but dynamic. This old man doesnt care what side you are on or what you believe but if you tell a good story I can appreciate it. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: ddw Date: 12 Jan 00 - 12:25 AM Just read Barry's song that was posted while I was writing the above and it reminded me of an anti-union song I've done for years — though Barry's is a lot MORE anti-union. It's Billy Ed Wheeler's Coal Tattoo.
I stood for the union david
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: ddw Date: 11 Jan 00 - 11:59 PM Bread and Roses is well crafted, inOBU, but I have to agree with the critique above (I don't remember whose) of the second one being in a "false voice," i.e., supposedly from the killer's side, but obviously not. It strikes me that B&R is very similar to Dylan's The Lonesome Death of Hattie Caroll — which wasn't all that controversial AS A SONG in the politically active '60s — and a lot of songs by Phil Ochs and some other writers. But I think Bert is right — people today just don't want to hear it. I, for one, am among them. Maybe I'm jaded, after spending 25 years documenting human stupidity and the terrible things they do to each other. It's not that I don't care, but I've certainly given up on hoping that pointing it out to people will help them decide to treat each other better. When I go out for music, I have a hard time listening to much preaching for anybody's cause — politics, religion, unions, ecology or whatever. I like songs about personal struggle and personal interaction and personal emotions, but not sweeping statements about the ongoing struggles of the Irish, the Romanies, American blacks or Indians or any other group that identifies itself by race or ethnic origin. Let's face it, — we all have our problems. Every group (read "in-group") has its out-group that it uses to define itself. To my knowledge, the only universal taboo the social antrhopologists have ever been able to identify is that you may not kill a member of the in-group. Men have been killing each other and raping and killing each others' women since time began. It ain't right, but it's not news any more. If you want to spread an ethnic cause, tell us about how they love each other, or how much they have contributed to society or something else positive about them. Make them living, loving, breathing humans — not just victims of the big THEY. Everybody's a victim of the THEY, so who cares? I've always said I can accept, tolerate, sometimes even like anybody — red, white, black or brown — until they get in my face and tell me that I don't like them because they are a different color or different religion or whatever. david |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 11 Jan 00 - 11:34 PM Ah so much to speak to... Rick, as far as venues, we are playing pubs and benifits at present, but the real problem is getting a dependable singer... Petr, I worked very closely with Czecks of good concscience who were niether Roma or racists, and just as songs about the wrongs the US did during the Viet Nam war effected me as an American, the fact that I fought against the war - well I understood the sentiment, not expecting the song to say - as in the case of the Unfinished Revolution, From the health center porch, she looks to the north where Nicaraguas enimies hide, except for Larry and the sandalistas, who we are cool with... Lets face it, when a democracy builds ghetto walls and tolerates scrores of murders of ethnic minorities without recorce of the courts - unless you concider six monthes in jail courts taking murder of Gypsies serriously, well, in a democracy people must take responcibility for how the world treats them. That is the difference between democracy and totalitarian government, it is not the government who bears responcibility for the acts of the people now, in the Czech republic, it is the Czech people. Kat, I would love you to sing with us, however, anyone who is not living in New York, well you are among the lucky ones! McGrath, It is always a pleasure, and thanks for the praise and inspiration. And of cource Bonnie, well, I hope we are playing in Toronto one day. Back to the scribbling and yeowling... Larry |
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Subject: Lyr Add: UNION WORKER, UNION BOSS^^^ From: Barry Finn Date: 11 Jan 00 - 11:31 PM Hi Gary T, you asked "have you ever heard a folk song (or any song) that speaks of the negative aspects of trade unions? " Yup, here you go.
"UNION WORKER, UNION BOSS"
Who'll protect you from the Union
Will you walk the line when the agent says picket
Where do you stand on graft and corruption
Does your voice start to freeze in the face of extortion
Now it's the boss and the laborer who fear the Unions
I don't apoligize for my view or my song, all the events here I watched & fought & was beaten & kept from my trade & then was put on a hit list (the modern version of blacklisting only more perment). Just thought I'd toss in a view from the other side of the coin, nothing is all right or all wrong hopefully we do what we can to better the world we live in for others & luckly many of us here do what we can with what we have. Bert, thanks for the very kind mention, I hold your views on the subject of songwriting as being dear. Barry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Chris Seymour Date: 11 Jan 00 - 11:16 PM I agree with those who've suggested that there are political implications to many traditional songs that are not obvious to contemporary listeners and singers. One example: There's a song called "Love has Brought me to Despair" that Cary Fridley (of the Freighthoppers) sings that she got from a traditional singer named Dellie Norton. When I heard a field recording of the song, it seemed one of the (depressingly many) songs about a young woman who is seduced, impregnated and abandoned by her lover -- the woman seemed, to me, a passive victim. Come to find out, when I heard Cary's intro., that when the woman is seeking for certain flowers, she's actually looking for herbs to, as Cary put it, "bring the baby down" -- ie induce an abortion. The woman -- and the song-- became much more interesting, and I immediately wanted to learn the song and sing it (which I have.) Other examples abound. Songs about poachers, harpers who fool rich men and kings, Black spirituals that refer to the underground railroad in code -- these are all undeniably traditional songs that are also undeniably political. Of course nobody is going to force people who aren't interested in leftish politics to listen, and there certainly is an element of preaching to the converted among those of us singers who try to weave political concerns into the music we make. But I find the current split in the folk scene disturbing. I find -- in the US anyway -- that there are three major folkie camps that don't interact much: 1. purist traditionalists who revere the beautiful, haunting old songs (as I do) but are usually not very interested in politics 2. political singers who sing mostly contemporary material -- their own or others' -- and are often uninterested in traditional songs, even though they have political implications 3. apolitical singer-songwriters who sing almost exclusively their own songs with little or no political content. Personally, I wish there were more folkies who tried to emulate singers like Martin Carthy, Norma Waterson and Peggy Seeger, who are passionately committed both to the great folk tradition and to making the world a better place. Martin once told me that he'd been misquoted by a Boston Globe reporter who'd written an article that attributed to him the idea that all folk music is socialist. "I don't belive that," Martin said. "I think that one strand of it is, and that's the strand I choose to follow." |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Chris Seymour Date: 11 Jan 00 - 11:16 PM I agree with those who've suggested that there are political implications to many traditional songs that are not obvious to contemporary listeners and singers. One example: There's a song called "Love has Brought me to Despair" that Cary Fridley (of the Freighthoppers) sings that she got from a traditional singer named Dellie Norton. When I heard a field recording of the song, it seemed one of the (depressingly many) songs about a young woman who is seduced, impregnated and abandoned by her lover -- the woman seemed, to me, a passive victim. Come to find out, when I heard Cary's intro., that when the woman is seeking for certain flowers, she's actually looking for herbs to, as Cary put it, "bring the baby down" -- ie induce an abortion. The woman -- and the song-- became much more interesting, and I immediately wanted to learn the song and sing it (which I have.) Other examples abound. Songs about poachers, harpers who fool rich men and kings, Black spirituals that refer to the underground railroad in code -- these are all undeniably traditional songs that are also undeniably political. Of course nobody is going to force people who aren't interested in leftish politics to listen, and there certainly is an element of preaching to the converted among those of us singers who try to weave political concerns into the music we make. But I find the current split in the folk scene disturbing. I find -- in the US anyway -- that there are three major folkie camps that don't interact much: 1. purist traditionalists who revere the beautiful, haunting old songs (as I do) but are usually not very interested in politics 2. political singers who sing mostly contemporary material -- their own or others' -- and are often uninterested in traditional songs, even though they have political implications 3. apolitical singer-songwriters who sing almost exclusively their own songs with little or no political content. Personally, I wish there were more folkies who tried to emulate singers like Martin Carthy, Norma Waterson and Peggy Seeger, who are passionately committed both to the great folk tradition and to making the world a better place. Martin once told me that he'd been misquoted by a Boston Globe reporter who'd written an article that attributed to him the idea that all folk music is socialist. "I don't belive that," Martin said. "I think that one strand of it is, and that's the strand I choose to follow." |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Little Neophyte Date: 11 Jan 00 - 10:23 PM Thanks Katlaughing & Aines. I understand what you are saying. It is a very important to understand the problem. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: katlaughing Date: 11 Jan 00 - 10:16 PM Larry, I echo Bonnies wors. I love to read what you post concerning the Roma and am fascinated with the history as well as the present. As for the masses wanting entertainment only: while that may be the perception, if we were to offer no alternatives, there would be no hope at all. Even though Seeger ws kept off of televisionf or 17 years, he still became known all over the world for his message and music. And, Bonnie, I understand what you are saying about not delving into the mind of hatred, but one of the things I've learned in my human rights work, is that if we cannot understand why people act the way they do in hatred, we cannot begin to have a dialogue with them in hopes of stopping the hatred and the violence it encourages. All of it comes from fear of some kind. By confronting that fear, through meeting those they hate, educating one another to understand where the fear comes from, we can hope to effect lasting changes. Good thread, Larry. If circumstances were different I would be proud to sing with your band. katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Petr Date: 11 Jan 00 - 09:34 PM What I find offensive about that song is that it implies that all Czechs are racist (gee a blanket statement?) and that life was better before the revolution (the real one in 89) Gary T hit the nail on the head in his discussion of the other side. Im not surprised that band members quit over that one. Question Authority .. and that's an order! Petr |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jan 00 - 08:35 PM A song about oppression and struggle can be trying to do lots of different things, speaking to different people sometimes.
It can be for people who know what is going on and who are involved in te struggle. A way of building solidarity helping people make some sense of what is happening.
Or it can be an expression of grief, a lamentation.
It can be for sympathetic outsiders, putting them in the picture, giving them the facts that get left out of the papers and the TV, and submerged in the ocean of the Internet.
And it can be aimed at people who aren't sympathetic, who might even be hostile, maybe with some hope of changing a few minds.
I'm sure we can think of songs that would fall into all these categories. It's late at night where I am, so I won't try. But the point is, these three types of songs may need a different type of language and approach.
Building solidarity means there's room for direct appeals for action, and "slogans".
Putting friends in the picture means just that - showing them what is happening, so they can make their minds up that they should do something about it.
When you want to win someone over, you might be trying to find some way of showing them that the injustice that is going in conflicts with some deeper value that they actually hold, or claim to hold. So, for example, you might hold back some relevant fact, such as the race of the victim, until late in the song.
And part of that also can mean helping people see that the actual killers aren't some different kind of monsters, so that we can sit back and feel it's nothing to do with us. The paratroop brigade on Bloody Sunday, or the butchers who wiped out MyLai were our brothers who'd taken a horribly wronmg turn at some time in their lives.
Or to take a more current situation, Albanian Kospvars who were victims have now become now killers of their innocent Serbs and Rom neighbours. The wheel of hate roplls round and round. I wrote a somg about that once, and I called it The Endless Roads Hope you get your band together again, InOBU. If they're all like you, that'll be a formidable bunch. |
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