 sj |
||
|
||
The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
|
|
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:34 PM If you dont pay a performer why should you collect money for people to listen..why come just to listen why not come to learn? You can start by rediscovery of your local songs. Then listen and learn then adapt and write more....easy Performers as professionals create scarcity by setting themselves apart. Scarcity causes prices to rise rising prices creates a barrier and not as many people have access. If there were more demand from an expanded pool of playes for expensive instruments their price would come down. Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:02 PM Active preservation and composition are most important enjoyment is way down the list. Though valid. Bollocks!! If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't do it. I am retired from the day job, my time's my own and I do things because I enjoy doing them. That includes music making as well as responding to idiotic remarks on Mudcat. Music does not require money. Oh yeah?? Have you any idea how much a contrabass recorder costs? or a decent anglo concertina or a decent quality tenor recorder or...? I could go on. Decent quality musical instruments cost serious money, but are worth it because if you are serious about your music, you should buy the best you can afford and also because of the pleasure they give. Sorry, I forgot. I'm not supposed to be enjoying myself!! |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Bettynh Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:01 PM :::hand raised high::: |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Bettynh Date: 27 Sep 10 - 03:58 PM "If everyone knew the song what would the pro do." Just how stupid are you?? Do you think we listen to a song once and that's it?? If a professional musician has a song, written or traditional, that is loved by the audience as sung by him/her, s/he will perform that song over and over and over and over again. And the audience will be happy. And the performer, a professional, will perform that song again even though s/he'd rather perform something else. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 27 Sep 10 - 03:48 PM Okay....Everyone who thinks Conrad is an obtuse jackass, raise your hands. Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Bettynh Date: 27 Sep 10 - 03:45 PM "If you have not read of musicians making national and also international tours you must be blind. You read about them on this forum all the time. When someone says they are in new york and will be in san fransisco tomorrow it is air travel." OK. I'm in NH today. I'll be in Tenn. on Thursday. I guess I'm going on tour! Wait until my son finds out! He'll be sooo excited! We'll be a new sensation - a touring audience! But we'll be driving, so I guess that doesn't count. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 27 Sep 10 - 02:55 PM we should fix it so you get the songs. How? Where are these songs coming from? From the half-dozen singers in my locality? We'll soon get pretty fed up with singing those, and the audience even more fed up with listening to them. How on earth do you think that is going to spread folk music? The only discrimination against performers getting paid gigs is whether they're any good or not. Why do you find that so difficult to understand? Why should anyone pay a performer if no one will pay to listen to them. Why should someone pay to listen if a performer isn't worth listening to? Local music only did well for hundreds of years because they had no alternative. If you weren't lucky enough to live somewhere with good musicians and singers, you'd have to put up with the rubbish because there was nothing else. But even in those days the best performers were professional, and played for dances and other events for payment both in cash and kind - usually beer. They were always glad to hear new songs and tunes from itinerant workers and gypsies. As for preserving their music - they didn't. As soon as they had access to the wireless and gramophone most of them willingly abandoned the old songs in favour of modern, professionally-performed music. Which is why folk song now is left to a handful of enthusiasts. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 27 Sep 10 - 01:41 PM Ah I get it now.... I seem to be conforming to Conrads idea of FREED Music. Just checked next years diary. One paid gig (with a five piece band) One evening in Lancashire. Combined mileage, between us of about 3500 miles. (The gig is up north UK, we are down south). I reckon my cut of the fee will be about £20. And 3 days out of my life. Not a Hotel room, Swimming pool, or Aircraft in site! Probably be sleeping on a friends sofa. And we'll have a great time. playing tunes that the people who live there probably won't have heard before. The rest of the year will be playing in pubs, locally for nothing. Not even free beer. Just for the love of it. So, Conrad. Can I join your crusade? Or does my one gig make me the Devils spawn? |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 27 Sep 10 - 01:24 PM Cost is always a barrier. Yes had you the songs you would not do research you did not get the songs so the process is broken so we should fix it so you get the songs. There are ways to teach via performance or at least send people home with the words should they wish to learn them. Professionals prevent competition by dominating the venues simple. Average performers dont get jobs because of discrimination not because we need to pay people I remember on jet setter musician who posts here is unionized as well both attributes cause inflated costs. Local music did fantastically well for hundreds of years it can happen now. Lots of joy in local music it was great music and attracted lots of academic attention in the 19th century- they activly preserved their music locally all we do is go and have good times. Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 27 Sep 10 - 01:05 PM Conrad, everything you say contradicts itself. You claim you want to spread folk music, but your actions would restrict it. You want to reduce the diversity of events, now you want to localise it so that people won't get to hear great singers from outside their area. If you and your neighbors had the songs in their heads then research would not be necessary. Where are those songs going to come from? I wasn't born knowing the words to 'Tamlin' or 'The Trees They Do Grow Hight'. I had to learn them - I did so from books (written by professionals) and records (made by professionals). I'm a singer, but I don't want to go to a concert to be taught a song (although if I hear a good one I might then go and learn it). Concerts are not teaching exercises - there are plenty of workshop sessions which are - although a good performer will inform the audience about the songs. Professionals may not want the competition, but they can't prevent it. Promoters are always on the lookout for new talent. If you're good, if you can attract an audience, you'll get gigs. All it takes is talent and hard work, so I can see why you have a problem with it. As for being unionised, you cannot be serious. Yes, some performers belong to the Musicians Union, but there is no bar on non-members being paid to perform. Economic discrimination is nonsense. The working classes aren't excluded from folk music by the cost. The working classes can afford to go to ball games, to go drinking, to buy cigarettes and drugs, to buy flat-screen TVs, to take foreign holidays. Few folk events here cost more than the price of a couple of packets of cigarettes. The non-working classes may have more of a problem, but if you spent less on beer and food and cars you'd have no difficulty affording folk events. It's a question of priorities. As I've said before, I'm out of work and I don't have difficulty affording to go to folk events. You want to turn folk music into a joyless activity where people would be limited to listening whatever performers happened to be in their locality, no matter how crap they were, and where the audience is required to learn songs rather than enjoy themselves. If that's what you want, it should be easy enough to find a few other talentless individuals to sing songs to one another in a cheap bar (come to think of it, there's plenty of that around the folk scene as well). Just leave the rest of us out of it. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Will Fly Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:29 PM If everyone knew the song what would the pro do. A comment which demonstrates your idiocy better than most... greed and a strong desire to weed out the lower classes. ... although this comes pretty close! |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:18 PM If you have not read of musicians making national and also international tours you must be blind. You read about them on this forum all the time. When someone says they are in new york and will be in san fransisco tomorrow it is air travel. I know how much It costs to travel as I go to events with artcars. Costs of globalizing or nationalizing your reach as a pro musician are eventually passed on to the audience and therefore a barrier much larger than the cost of local music and keeping it local. Not only is it jet set but its also unionized. If you and your neighbors had the songs in their heads then research would not be necessary. Thats what use of music for pure entertainment does it causes people to depend on others for music something which is not necessary. If every concert left someone with a song in their heads-they learned it or picked up a song sheet and learned it later things would be much better. But pros dont want competition. If everyone knew the song what would the pro do. The concepts of competency and quality are all abstractions. Determined by the listener. For me If I can hear an aproximation of melody that is fine if they get the words mostly correct I can in my mind fill in the gaps. When you bring abstract arbitrary quality concers to bear you limit the number of people who have access to audiences- this is a fact. All that is needed is to educate the audience to being more tolerant. Economic discrimination is bad. When venues use prices to keep certain people out while letting other people in they are discriminating and operating segregating establishment. When racial discrimination and segregation were ruled out econmic, cultural segregation came in. This is well know. "we dont want that type in here" The working classes are excluded by costs. We lost a great german oktoberfest in baltimore. It was held in the national guard armory. The placed was at capacity. Working class, and the working poor could afford to eat and drink and have a good time. The organizers raised prices. At first they had a big enough crowd of the wealthy yuppie elite to make a fair profit but when the economy tightened they would not lower their prices and the bottom fell out. They had not raised their prices because of cost but because of greed and a strong desire to weed out the lower classes. Economic segregation should be illegal. Reasonable profit for goods should be regulated. I dont find many performing for free around here. As a cartist I am in great demand. Almost every weekend can be taken in the summer. I always come for free with the rare exception of havin a little gass money tossed at me. Sort of like the free drinks given players at pubs. I ALWAYS perform for free not occasionally. I do this at big venues too. I am in demand such that I rarely get a weekend off. Last weekend I was at the Baltimore Book fair the one before at H street festival.....I have one next weekend. I practice what I preach. Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 27 Sep 10 - 08:19 AM Performers in the US will travel by air. However that's because, far from having the best venues stitched up as Conrad seems to believe, they have to take work where they can find it, which means travelling long distances between gigs. Given the scale of North America, flying is often the quickest (and possibly cheapest) means of transport. However they are no different from thousands of others who have to travel in the course of their work. It's not a jet-set lifestyle. In the UK, distances are shorter but professional musicians clock up thousands of miles each year travelling between gigs. It is not unusual for them to be playing at opposite ends of the country on consecutive nights. Only a very few are able to organise tours to minimise travel - most have to take gigs when and where they are offered. They end up staying in cheap hotels or in organisers' spare rooms. Believe me, business travel even in 4-star hotels is not glamorous. Sleeping on people's sofas even less. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Rob Naylor Date: 27 Sep 10 - 06:09 AM Tootler:@ Conrad seems to believe that professionals are denying opportunities to amateurs. Well I'm an amateur musician and I don't find there is any lack of opportunity nor do I find professionals telling me I am not good enough. Quite the opposite; the professional musicians I know are very encouraging. Absolutely! While I'm nowhere near good enough to get a paid gig,or even to play on a stage, there's no way I'm denied opportunities to perform. In fact, I receive lots of encouragement from people much better than am, whether they're amateur or professional. I now attend singarounds and sessions regularly and have never once felt anything other than strong encouragement to play, even though I know that my current instrumental skill level is very modest, my vocal talents barely adequate and I have a tendency to let nerves get the better of me. I *could* attend sessions locally (within 30 minutes drive) 4 or 5 times a week if I wanted. I try to limit it to once or twice otherwise I'd end up running out of material. I just don't understand what Cionrad's on about. - There are no lack of opportunities to perform for anyone who wishes to, IMO. - I don't know of ANY folk professionals who live "jet set" lifestyles. This is just a figment of Conrad's imagination, I reckon. Even the most well-known "stars" who visit my town stay in either the local Travelodge or at friends' homes. NEVER in the local 4 star hotel. - As for "bringing traditional music to the masses" people like Fairport Convention, as well as writing their own material, are assiduous searchers of archives and regularly perform newly-unearthed "trad" songs and tunes at their gigs. As I said about 600 posts up-thread, Conrad seems to have a chip on his shoulder about being alienated from his local "scene"... which is probably something to do with the attitudes and behaviour he expresses. This seems to have been confirmed by "Skivee". As a player of low competence myself, I'm often pleasantly surprised that people in sessions "give me a hearing"....but I reckon that if I started tootling loudly and tunelessly on a whistle during someone else's performance or shouting out for songs while someone else was singing, I'd pretty soon alinate the local community too, and find my presence at events as unwelcome as Conrad seems to. But the man has a fixed idea in his head which he thinks is radical and that the rest of us can't understand, and nothing anyone can say will deflect him from his self-righteousness. He thinks he's a MESSIAH. Actually, he's just a MESS. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:25 AM "ordinary folk cant get a venue ... Music does not require money. I can prove it by going to any public place and play music." You contradicted yourself in one breath here. Ordinary folk like me and thousands of other amateur enthusiasts, perform for free all the time. Just the same as you. So there's nothing to prove. My impression is that you have a chip on your shoulder and while you (same as the rest of us) can perform for free, you resent the fact that no paying venue wants to hire you to perform for cash? |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:09 AM Ordinary folk who are competent singers and musicians can get a venue any time they want. If I wished,I could play every night of the week at venues no more than hour's drive away, and all free. Most musicians around the UK could probably say the same. I don't live in a city. Those who are not competent can't get a venue because they won't attract an audience - they may even drive an audience away. It's not a conspiracy, it's just that people won't waste their time listening to crap - even if it's free. My point about libraries is nothing to do with advertising, it's about time. I couldn't afford to take several days out of a working week to travel two hundred miles to visit a specialist library in the hope of finding one or two new songs. Professionals do this because they have to - researching or writing new material is part of the job, just as rehearsing, administration and travel are - the public performance is just the tip of the iceberg. It is their work which disseminates new songs. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 26 Sep 10 - 10:22 PM "Jeez! Nobody could say anything like that unless he's sitting there at his computer completely ripped!" At least John in Hull was Funny! (trying to be funny too!) and knew his limitations .... |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:51 PM I belong to the ACLU and I have seen nothing about fighting for the rights of the aggressively stupid. BTW Corny............We're waiting for the names and proof sources........Let's not forget. Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:43 PM Jeez! Nobody could say anything like that unless he's sitting there at his computer completely ripped! Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:37 PM ". . . civil rights. . . ." I haven't heard anything this outrageously hilarious since Tina Fey aired one of the funniest comedy routines of all time by simply quoting verbatim what Sarah Palin said during a press conference!! Conrad, you're missing your calling. You have a great career ahead of you as a comedian. (Or in politics – Republican Party, of course.) Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:24 PM ". . . civil rights. . . . I'm still working on that one. I'm in total awe! #### "It is the next frontier on the civil rights adgenda that needs to be worked on." You mean, Conrad, that if someone pays me to sing somewhere, it violates your civil rights? Explain to me, please, how that works? Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:11 PM ". . . civil rights. . . ." Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!!!! Name names? He CAN'T. Because there aren't any. He'll just keep repeating the same ridiculous thing over and over again. He's HOPELESS! Bloody deranged!! Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM Exactly Betty......well stated and let me go one step more. CONRAD--READ AND ANSWER: You've made the following statement repeatedly yet NEVER have you named names or given any specific. I contend you are completely full of shit. Let's see your proof source or close the thread as there is no "discussion" but simply a boring lecture from you with absolutely no validity. "There is a finite resource to support the music and pros are sucking down most of it." Go ahead Conrad......let's have some names and details......some proof source. Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:14 PM Conrad, stop wasting your time here - get yourself out of the house, go to your nearest cheap pub and sing your heart out. Be sure to tell them why. Do this in as many places as you can, then come back and tell us what happened. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Bettynh Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:09 PM OK, Conrad, time to name names. What folksingers are you talking about that "arrange for national tours involving jet plane money?" |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:59 PM Active preservation and composition are most important enjoyment is way down the list. Though valid. Advertizing can do most anything why not use it to encourage people to go to libraries, play and learn music easy..... \ There is a finite resource to support the music and pros are sucking down most of it. They are getting enough to arrange for national tours involving jet plane money. Way too much. All at the same time when ordinary folk cant get a venue because according to Don they arent refined enough. Music does not require money. I can prove it by going to any public place and play music. Easy- the money connection is bogus. Get used to it. Music can be free. Certain people just dont want it to be. Ah yes but if it is too expensive you simply can't come. Thats just economic segregation and intolerance. No riff raff need apply. It is the next frontier on the civil rights adgenda that needs to be worked on. We have already heard on this thread "if you dont like the cost get a job" Enough said. Rampant elitism and discrimination. Only perfect singers need to apply..... Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:51 PM There is often not that much qualitative difference between an amateur and a professional. I know a number of really fine singers who don't want to be professional singers. They sing strictly for enjoyment (their own and others') and prefer not to be dependent upon their singing for income, wanting to sing when they want to sing, not because they depend on it to pay the rent. But—I don't know that many people, including those who chose to stay amateur, who will refuse payment if someone offers it to them. When it comes down to it, I'm probably more of a semi-professional. What drew me into professionalism was being asked in 1959 to do the "Ballads and Books" television series. For which, incidentally, I did NOT receive any pay. A program planner for KCTS-TV had heard me a few times at "hoots" (private parties where friends get together to sing for each other) and actually had to talk me into doing the series. KCTS was an educational station based at the University of Washington, operating on a low budget and using hand-me-down equipment from KING-TV, a local commercial station. Now, it's our local PBS affiliate and with its own studios off campus. But at the time they did not have the money to pay "talent." People then assumed that, since I had done a television series, I was obviously a "professional," so they expected to pay me when I sang somewhere. Such as the coffeehouse "The Place Next Door," which had just opened and was looking for a folk singer to hire. Simply a case of being at the right place at the right time, and being ready when the job was offered. So—Conrad, there is a damned thin line between amateurs and professions, particularly in the realm of folk music. Your picture of professionals as being greedy elitists trying to limit the field bears no resemblance to anything going on in the real world. As a greedy, elitist professional singer out merely to exploit folk music for my own selfish enrichment, with the exception in the early Sixties when I was singing regularly in coffeehouses, doing concerts, singing at the Seattle World's Fair and at arts festivals and such, if I had not also been teaching guitar in a music store and giving folk guitar classes in the evenings when I wasn't singing someplace (and how better, Conrad, to spread interest in folk music than to teach others how to do it?), I would not have made a very good living. I managed to squeak by. But—I was able to keep doing what I wanted to do: sing for and with other people. With the British Invasion (The Beatles, the Rolling Stones, et al.) and the demise of the popular interest in folk music—and the closing of many coffeehouses, I and many of my greedy, elitist professional compatriots had to take "day jobs." But we continued to get together for "hoots." But gradually, over the past few decades, folk music seems to be growing. Slowly, perhaps, but growing nevertheless. Folk festivals (free!) all over the country, many new coffeehouses opening (there are more coffeehouses offering folk music as entertainment in Seattle right now than there were in the Sixties!), open mikes, song circles. . . . Believe it or not, but there is more interest in folk music right now (as opposed to popular folk singing trios, quartets, and other ensembles of the "Mighty Wind" stripe) than there was in the Sixties. And this time, it's growing, not because it's suddenly a popular music fad, but because genuine interest in the songs themselves, and a desire on the part of many to not only preserve them, but sing them. It will never be more than one corner of the wide world of music available, any more than opera or early music is, but as it is now, it's actually much more stable and healthier than it was during the heyday of groups like The Kingston Trio, The Limeliters, and The New Christy Minstrels. If it ain't broke—and it ain't!—don't fix it! Or as a famous man once said: "You cannot help a child grow by pulling on its head!" Don Firth P. S. ". . . nor do I find professionals telling me I am not good enough. Quite the opposite; the professional musicians I know are very encouraging." Exactly so, Tootler! I'll never forget sitting on Carol Lee Waite's living room floor at 3:00 o'clock in the morning in 1954, passing a guitar back and forth with Pete Seeger as he showed me guitar licks. Or the time I spent backstage having a long chat with Richard Dyer-Bennet, who as very encouraging. Or both Guy Carwan and Barbara Dane suggesting songs they thought I could do particularly well. What Conrad keeps saying about professional singers of folk songs reveals how totally ignorant he is about that of which he speaks. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 26 Sep 10 - 04:15 PM Ordinary people are not good enough to make music. They need to hire someone who is. Conrad seems to believe that professionals are denying opportunities to amateurs. Well I'm an amateur musician and I don't find there is any lack of opportunity nor do I find professionals telling me I am not good enough. Quite the opposite; the professional musicians I know are very encouraging. There are plenty of folk clubs and sessions where I can go and sing and play and, were I so minded, there is opportunity to look for paid gigs. One local venue has periodic "hiring fairs" where you can showcase yourself. However, I am quite happy to continue as an amateur. I also play recorder in a group that gives a couple of concerts a year and have recently joined a wind band and a choir who also do concerts, so there is plenty of musical activity that I can take part in with opportunity to perform. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 26 Sep 10 - 03:30 PM Well, the one fairly clear beacon shining through the fog of Conrad's convoluted "Grand Plan" seems to be his writhing lust for unlimited access to free beer. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Sep 10 - 03:18 PM No one minds at all Don.......We're all still wondering what the hell it is Conrad expects out of his "Grand Plan." Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 26 Sep 10 - 03:06 PM "Professionals rise to the top because via their agents and recording backers they dominate all the major stages and most of the radio play." What a load of crap!! Conrad, I don't have an agent, nor do I have a recording backer. Nor do any singers I know—and know of—who customarily perform at folk festivals and other venues, free or otherwise. I did have an agent once, in the early Sixties, for about three months. People, who had heard me at one place or another, had been coming to me, offering me money to sing various places, and this guy wanted a 10% cut of what I was being paid. But he wound up LOSING me more work than he found me, so I fired him! Sure, singers like Pete Seeger, Joan Baez, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Theodore Bikel—people who went around nationally and gave concerts in large concert halls had (have) agents—but they represent a miniscule percentage of the number of PROFESSIONAL singers of folk songs. Most of us are NOT nationally known, and we really don't make a great deal of money at it. Generally, just enough to cover our EXPENSES, which allows us to KEEP singing for audiences—and at FREE events, such as festivals. And school classes and in school assemblies. Incidentally, how BETTER to spread interest in folk music that to sing for young people? Especially if you make it interesting, informative, and entertaining? Conrad, you live in some kind of boozy dream world. ANY public location, such as the Seattle Center here, or any of the thousands of public parks scattered in cities around the country—and free and open for the public to use (that's what they're there for!) are maintained by public funds. And these public funds are provided usually by bond issues that the public—those who use the park—vote on and pass, year after year, just like bond issues to support public schools. And the same holds true for "free" public facilities like public libraries. Who do you think pays the library staff? The city. Usually from bond issues that people vote on. Because they consider these things worthwhile. THERE IS NO WAY THAT THESE FACILITIES CAN BE PROVIDED, MAINTAINED, AND STAFFED UNLESS SOMEONE PAYS FOR IT!! After all, SOMEone has to clean up the turds you leave behind and pick up your trail of empty beer cans and put them in the recycling bin. Don Firth P. S. My apologies to all the normal people here for my liberal use of CAPITALS, but I'm trying to find some way of getting through Conrad's obviously blurred vision in the vain hope that some of it may eventually make it's way to the few remaining functional synapses he may have left. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 26 Sep 10 - 11:37 AM Anyone can go to a library. As will said, "of course they can - but they don't necessarily choose to." Most of us have to earn a living in other ways, and can't spare the time to travel hundreds of miles to spend long hours in a library researching songs, piecing together a performable piece from various sources, reworking and rehearsing it until it is finally ready to perform. Professionals make time, because to remain successful they have to continue to refresh their act with new material. Then performers lower down the foodchain, as you put it, copy it and perform it themselves. I'm not claiming that professionals are the only ones to do this. Some amateur performers are also able to do it. But it is mostly professionals, because they have to, and their influence is greater because their performances reach more people. Agents are just facilitators - professionals rise to the top because promoters want to book them because audiences want to see them. If you're not good enough to attract an audience, no agent in the world will get you bookings. They get radio play for the same reason. And don't imagine these professionals and their agents somehow have it all tied up - promoters are always looking for new talent. The key word there is "talent". |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Ruth Archer Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:38 AM "Anyone can go to a library." Yes - so how come so few people do? Libraries are free at the point of use (though we do pay for them through our taxes - is this another area where you'd abolish subsidy?), so there are no barriers to access. They are a good test of your theory that if things are free, more people do them. The majority of people don't regularly use libraries. They buy books. They read on the internet. Some don't read at all. It's all about perceived value. And here's a thing: in a capitalist society (which, as a political conservative, you presumably advocate), many things which have no price are perceived as worthless. If you give away free tickets to an event, especially if it is for a kind of entertainment with which the target audience is unfamiliar, many just won't bother. The event has no perceived value for them, and with limited leisure time to "spend", people are very careful about the choices they make. If you charge for the tickets, the potential attender has made an investment which is more likely to secure their attendance, and they see the event as having an intrinsic value. You don't believe me? I have seen professional venues try to develop audiences for less popular artforms, such as contemporary dance, by giving tickets away. Audiences still stayed away in droves. My point is that, for people who don't know anything about folk music, making it free won't inspire them to come. If you do, by some minor miracle, manage to get a few of them into your field, asking them to listen to poor performers and to shit in a hedge is hardly going to compare with the leisure experiences they are used to, and you're not very likely to see them a second time. A bad experience of folk will put off many new attenders for life, as it reinforces negative stereotypes. Far from opening the gates, Conrad, your little masterplan would kill folk stone dead. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Will Fly Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:13 AM I'm still waiting for Conrad to give me two or three examples of the folk music that he thinks we are "charged" (who by?) with preserving. America had a huge influx of immigrants in the 19th century, from all over the world - the British Isles, Europe, the Far East, etc. Are we talking of Yiddish folk and theatre songs, for example? Just tell us what you consider to be the music. Anyone can go to a library. Of course they can - but they don't necessarily choose to. The music is there for all to see, accessible to all, but if people don't want to be coerced or prodded into enjoying it, you can't make them. It's nothing to do with money or professionalism or elitism. It's the people's choice and, no matter how important someone may think folk music is, it's not a given in society that we have to sing it, play it, or like it. The reason folk songs are only sung by a handful is that over the last 100 years integration of folk music into the lifeway has declined. If folk singing has declined, it's not because people are lulled away from singing it by professional performers - it's because, as Howard has quite rightly said above, other forms of music are more appealing. It's as simple as that, but you don't seem to get it. And - just to contradict that statement - what about the wealth of fiddle tunes in folk music (for example)? I sit here with the "Fiddler's Fakebook" in front of me - 500 tunes from all over the North America and parts of Europe - set out for me to enjoy. And anyone else to enjoy. And the key word here is "enjoy" - because you haven't once mentioned in any of your posts the fundamental point of all music, which is to play it and enjoy it, And, if we choose to entertain others or be entertained by others with the music - just for fun - there's nothing any so-called radical paradigm will do to change that. You can't shoehorn music and the joy of music into a crackpot social theory for it's own sake. When you realise that, you might get some sense into your head. You might believe that folk music is a fundamental element of a "lifeway", whatever the hell that is, but many do not and will not, preferring classical music, or jazz, or rap, or hip-hop, or reggae or church music. And some people have no interest in, or ear for, music whatsoever. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 26 Sep 10 - 08:27 AM Professionals rise to the top because via their agents and recording backers they dominate all the major stages and most of the radio play. Doing right by the traditions and music that we are charged with preserving and developing has nothing to do with popularity contests. While earning a living from folk music is nice it is not necessary. Like an automobile folk music needs maintenance and repair. It does not matter that a mechanic is employed if he cant fix the car or the fixes to the car create damage later. What is the impact of what professionals generally do upon the tradition. Is it as positive as it could be. Anyone can go to a library. You dont need to be a pro. Thats the point you dont need specialists. The reason folk songs are only sung by a handful is that over the last 100 years integration of folk music into the lifeway has declined. Yes that is what this is all about. Less entertainment and elitist perfectionism and more lifeway folk music. Sung and written every day by ordinary folk in increassing numbers. Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:28 AM Not to put too fine a point on it but in the grand scheme of things most folk songs are only known by a handful of people anyway. I'm curious as to what Conrad expects if his wishes are met. Conrad, do you really believe there will be a mass shift to folk music from pop or poprock? Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:19 AM Yes there is a place for pros but it is not at the top of the food chain but further down than it is now. This is pure drivel. What on earth do you mean by the "food chain"? People rise to the top because through good musicianship they gain the respect of audiences, who want to see them perform (and are willing to pay to do so) and want to buy their records. The best musicians are likely to be professional (either on a full or part-time basis), but they're not good musicians because they're professional , they're professional because they're good musicians. No one is going to pay to listen to someone who doesn't achieve a certain standard of musicianship, and for them to pay enough to earn a living you need to be pretty damn good. Professionals are at the top of the food chain because only those at the top can earn enough to be professional. You're very concerned about spreading folk songs wider, but you don't seem to realise that it is the professionals who actually do this. Virtually all the songs and tunes I know I've learned from a professional, either directly from their recordings and books, or indirectly from someone else who themselves learned it from a professional. It is mostly the professionals, who are under commercial pressure to add to their repertoires, who spend time in libraries going through original collections to find new material, who work it into shape, and popularise it through their performances. Without the professionals to spread them around, most folk songs would be known only to a handful of people. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:04 AM Don you know what I have been saying- There are some free music or almost free events (I mean free from municipal and state grant funding as well) they are not the rule. Go back a few centuries and you will find lots of interesting smells that we somehow object to today. I think that the smell of money is one of the worst. Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 26 Sep 10 - 01:41 AM "while others may be happy to sit in a field with no facilities and listen to a drunkard squeaking out unrecognisable tunes on a penny whistle." The free folk festival scene Conrads been arguing for already happens. You get it in every park in every town in the country. If you want to attend such an event - without the elitist restrictions of loo's, warmth, real ale on tap, tents or musicians - you can easily find one by the smell of urine and empty special brew cans. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 26 Sep 10 - 01:10 AM ". . . the problem is that costs limit access. . . ." Not to events like the Northwest Folklife Festival—and other such festivals all over the country. They're free to the public and volunteer run, which is to say, run by people who don't have to be there unless they want to be there. And here, Conrad, is what you will probably regard as the best part: the performers also volunteer, whether they are customarily paid or are true amateurs (people who do it purely for the love of it—which is not to say that professionals don't also do it because they love it and would continue to do it even if they weren't ever paid). And there are lots and lots of workshops and discussion groups. No difficulty meeting and talking with the performers. So—what's your problem, Conrad? You're several decades behind on your "visionary new paradigm." Well—some days are like that. . . . Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Sep 10 - 10:30 PM Honest and straightforward question here.........Do you really believe your assorted plans will bring people to folk/trad? If so.....Why? Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 25 Sep 10 - 10:17 PM Not disputing that some will pay the problem is that costs limit access and should be minimized and eliminated as much as possible. This is done but rarely. Yes the models work but it is more than a model it is a central paradigm. Yes there is a place for pros but it is not at the top of the food chain but further down than it is now. The issue with volunteers is volunteer abuse. Basic rule- if you ask for volunteers everyone should volunteer. If you make a profit return it to the volunteers. Sounds easy to me. And yes one gets tickets but my experience is most likely not to the performance at the festival you wanted to see. Nothing wrong with diversity. One must embed it in a paradigm or philosophy that removes bariers at all levels from the spread of folk music. Eliminate volunteeism when it is used to make a profit, remove economic segregation and discrimination make access as easy as possible for everyone. Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 25 Sep 10 - 08:12 PM Conrad, no one is denying that your models work - as you've been told repeatedly, they're nothing new, and people have been doing for years what you're now demanding. However, they're not the only models - there are lots of others which also work, and which many people prefer to yours. For someone who claims to want to spread folk music as wide as possible you have a strange way of going about it. You want to do away with the diversity we have at present and replace it with a model which suits you. You don't seem to understand that people want different things - some want to sit and listen to a professional, while others may be happy to sit in a field with no facilities and listen to a drunkard squeaking out unrecognisable tunes on a penny whistle. If you think volunteers are being exploited then don't volunteer. No one is forced to offer their services, and it's seldom one-sided - people do it because they get free tickets in return. That's fair exchange. Why is it any of your business if people choose to do this? You remind me of Oscar Wilde's definition of a cynic: a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. You are obsessed with making it free, but most people recognise the value of what good folk musicians, professional or otherwise, can provide them with and are happy to pay for it. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 25 Sep 10 - 07:25 PM If everyone had their music then folk musicians would have to share the venues......that is the conventional venues. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 25 Sep 10 - 06:14 PM But seriously, folks. . . . Crow Sister, in answer to your question about coffeehouses, I'm sorry I don't have any footage of coffeehouses like The Place Next Door. Videotaping technology and such hardly existed at the time, much less being able to snap photos with a cell phone (which didn't even exist back then). But there are photos and such of coffeehouses that currently exist where the same kinds of things go on. To give a fairly comprehensive history of coffee and coffeehouses, and how coffeehouses became gathering spots for singers of folk songs in this country, a few years ago, in answer to a similar question, I posted a fairly lengthy dissertation. If you wish, this should be able to take you to it. Probably more than you really want to know on the subject: Coffee and Coffeehouses Coffeehouses are still going strong here, at least in this area (Pacific Northwest) and as I understand it, in other areas of the country as well. And many still feature singers of folk songs. Here are a few photos from the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society's web site of events taking place in coffeehouses around Seattle: Audience eye-view of the singers. Singer's eye-view of the audience, more or less. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 25 Sep 10 - 06:11 PM ". . . professional performers benefit via scarcity. . . ." Right, Conrad! The fewer people we have in our audiences, the better we like it. My burning ambition is to hire the 2,500 seat Seattle Opera House, walk out on stage, and find no one there. That's what every professional folk singer wants. #### Hey!! What the hell! Conrad, YOU could probably do that right now! Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 25 Sep 10 - 06:02 PM The best way to care for the legacy of folk music is by active knowledge and use of the songs by as many individuals as possible not as few as possible. Yes you have to cast a wide net to find the segment that will do this but professional performers benefit via scarcity so therefore they keep the nets tiny. Singing quality is indeed not important. If the song lyrics are presented and the tune is basically there then it is more of a service than any number of professionals making all the money available. Maybe you are not getting wealthy but I read of a good number of musicians that do tours involving lots of air travel and big cities. I could not afford to that as an ordinary person and doing that contributes to overall bottom line cost certainly does not make the music cheaper. Again dont mind pros making money I just mind their share of the best venues and available money. Its too high. Yeah I worked for a festival director who wore scruffy clothes and drove a beat up truck and made money from volunteer exploytation. "if it wasn't for you volunteers the festival couldnt happen" yeah sure. If the volunteers did not turn up he could not own his home in a very high rent district and drive his other car a bmw and take two or three trips to europe each year. Why would anyone volunteer for such a person. It is simple abuse. He brought in vendors who made significant money. No way not necessary the music can happen without it. Sorry. We have seen the models- they work....we just need to put them in place. Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 25 Sep 10 - 04:57 PM "It is a radical change but if the models work just fine cut the crap and join in the reforms." The point I was trying to make, is that these current models which of course do indeed work (as is evident by their continuance) are not however *your* model. Because you regard aspects of all of these examples to be somehow representative of the current "status quo" that you are railing against: be they festivals that accept volunteers in return for a ticket (abusive), or smaller word-of-mouth folk camps (elitist), or amateur events held in public houses where the landlord might want people to buy his beer (exorbitant costs). It seems that however much people open the door and offer their hospitality for near to free as you're going to get without digging for roots with your bare hands, nothing currently successfully functioning as 'folk for free (or near as dammit)', is pure enough to meet the rigid demands of your personal ideology. Otherwise, Howard has it nailed. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Sep 10 - 03:00 PM Hi Corny.....As your foemost bullying fuckwit, let me be assured you read what Howard wrote, can understand it, and KNOW it to be true.......It is. Read the following paragraphs again and again until you see the truth: HOWARD WROTE---The role of folk music in the pre-industrial world (and industrial world, come to that) was entertainment. People then didn't have access to professional entertainment, so they had to make their own. When the invention of the gramophone and wireless gave them access to professional entertainment, they had no further need for folk music, and all but a few willingly abandoned it. We may find that regrettable, but it was their choice. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 25 Sep 10 - 02:52 PM "During the early 1960s, most coffeehouses in my area" I'd love to see some footage Don. I don't have any picture I can compare this with from my experiences of pub sessions in the UK. |
| Share Thread: |
