England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:44 AM

Pleasingly, some on-thread posts "on" the recorder/English flute - my tenor is moulded in ABS polymer, by the way. I've never tried a wooden one, but hear they are generally harder to maintain but easier to play.

All refuting your position or haven't you noticed?

Are you going to adress any of my points or have you something to hide.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:41 AM

Insane Beard: that Moeck instrument is a baroque type, and for what you do I'd think a Renaissance style one would be better. The Mollenhauer Dream Alto is probably the best at mid-price - I haven't got one but I've tried one and I'd have got it if I didn't already have something comparable (a Hopf Renaissance Praetorius, now sold as "Kobliczek"). I use a Dream soprano a lot, mine is in the Chistmassy red-and-gold colour scheme.

Anyone here got one of the Nadishana instruments? I'm tempted by the convertible A/G "futuristic fujara", but I'd rather like to hear what it does on the traditional Slovak fujara tunes first - the demos on his website are of his own material, whereas the Slovak tunes are meant for the traditional tuning and must sound different in ET.

Extended techniques: the book you need for that is Walter von Hauwe's "The Modern Recorder Player", which costs a LOT more than a basic recorder. One trick I've been using a lot lately is vocalization, which I learned in Moldavia this summer from listening to Andras Hodorog and Istvan Laszlo Legedi - it's standard in Csango furulya and kaval playing. You can hear Hodorog doing it on some of his YouTube clips. It gives an aggressive buzz to the sound which makes the recorder sound very unlike its normal self. I use it either just to make myself heard over fiddles and accordions, or to make a sound which is obviously distinct from that of a whistle - I sometimes play in a session with a very-out-of-tune whistle player, and if she joins in with something I'm doing on the descant recorder, my vocalized buzz makes it obvious which of us is which.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:10 AM

"In other words, a Forth Reich Totalitarian Militarist World Order which enforces Ethnic Cleansing and Cultural Purity resulting in the Deaths of Billions."

FOREIGN BLACK OR IF HOME @ GO IF STILL_HERE MURDER THEN ELSE GEORDIE SONG AND @ SING THEN

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:02 AM

"my tenor is moulded in ABS polymer, by the way."

Plastic by any other name would smell...well, how would it smell? Plastic doesn't really smell of anything, does it?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:55 AM

Pleasingly, some on-thread posts "on" the recorder/English flute - my tenor is moulded in ABS polymer, by the way. I've never tried a wooden one, but hear they are generally harder to maintain but easier to play.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:53 AM

I bought a plastic Aulos recorder of the alto (or treble) variety in Lancaster on Saturday. It did not cost very much, and came in an unattractive zip-up pouch complete with fingering chart, cleaning rod, and a charming little tin o' grease*, with which, presumably, to lubricate the joints. The thought did cross my mind of calling it the Japanese Flute, or Flauto Japonica, but Don's Engrish Frute is more than adequate as an affectionate handle with which to refer to this instrument, and for this I thank him.

My reason for buying this instrument is manifold; first, I wanted something to play with on dark autumn nights whilst my wife is otherwise employed about the business of her post-graduate researches (she also works full-time). Secondly, having recently picked up a first edition of Edgar Hunt's The Recorder and its Music (Jenkins 1962) (which, I might add, cost a good deal more that the Engrish Frute in question) I found myself desirous of a more corporeal communion with the topic of his study - yea, even with fond memories of my beloved Moeck Renaissance Alto from which I parted company back in 1982. Thirdly, there are times when chromaticism comes in very handy indeed, even in an entirely monophonic modal music such as my own, and being a dynamic instrument designed for chromaticism, it is entirely possible to use extended fingerings to discover more experimental or avant garde vocabularies than are available on simple whistle flutes. To this end I used to play my old brown plastic Dolmetsch tenor back in 1977, until I swapped it for the wooden Baroque alto in 1979 which went in 1981 in part exchange for the aforementioned Moeck Renaissance Alto, which, the following year, I traded in against a Camac hurdy-gurdy kit from which I made the instrument which I would eventually sell, in 1991, to fund the purchase of an alto Eb clarinet. This hurdy-gurdy is now back in my keeping, albeit temporarily; I have used it extensively throughout Naked Season, my new album of Dark Folk Songs for Sloow Tapes in Belgium, a track from which, The Leg of a Mallard, is currently playing on my myspace page.   

Anyhoo, with reference to Mr Hunt's book, it seems Arnold Dolmetsch was content with his original Bressan recorder until he left it in a bag on the platform of Waterloo Station in 1919, thus his hand was forced to manufacture a replacement, and so it was The making of recorders had begun (Hunt, 1962, p 132) - and with it the revival proper. Pre-war it seems we were entirely dependent on supplies from Germany; the author rather passively reports: The recorder was acquiring political associations and soon became the instrument of the Hitler-Youth, for which all kinds of marches, including the Horst Wessel-Lied, were to be arranged (ibid. p 139). Elsewhere he makes the significant confession that When I first imagined recorders being played in schools, I thought of well-balanced consorts in public, grammar and high schools, and some in private schools - I did not think 'council schools' would be interested. (ibid. p 137). It was only with the advent of WW2 that the recorder as we know it today comes into being - mass-produced, plastic, affordable, ubiquitous, and, sadly, as misunderstood (and often as unpalatable) as Dr Pepper.

Should my amateur endeavours on the Engrish Frute prove fruitful in any way, I will set up a Smoking Fund** for the purchase of a semi-serious instrument for public performance. Nothing too fancy you understand - in fact one of the new Moeck Rondo Altos in plain maple would do quite nicely, and, at a mere £142, isn't going to break the bank. Chances are however, I'll be making do with my Aulos alto Engrish Frute and put the bigger money to better use, such as one of Nadishana's new 5-in-one Futujaras which is a good deal more me somehow. Singarounds beware!            

* From Hip Priest by The Fall (Hexenduction Hour, 1982) comes one time feast was a tray o' grease. Interestingly most on-line transcriptions of this song see fit to omit this crucial line.

** A Smoking Fund is putting the money I would have once spent on snout to far better use.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:29 AM

http://www.dolmetsch.com/recorder_brochure.pdf

Well, whatever Carl Dolmetsch wrote in 1941 he clearly didn't intend for the term 'English flute' to continue in usage or he would have included them in his product range.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:48 AM

I love Mudcat. You learn so much.

I miss my Granma. I wonder if she's slipped off to to Weston Super Mare with her fancy man again? I swear, a box of fondant fancies and a tube of Polydent and that woman is anybody's...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:58 AM

Blimey! Who would have thought that WAV's ignorance could be contagious?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:16 PM

I can tell you've studied this at great length Don, not to mention immense depth and not inconsiderable breadth. It's an honour to be corrected by such an erudite scholar as yourself, and I bow, nay, humbly prostrate myself to your superior knowledge. May God bless you sir.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:04 PM

Well, I dunno there, Smokey. You might want to check your sources on that. The flauto plastico was indeed first developed in the 15th century by the sixth Earl of Clacton (whose name, by the way, happened to be Earl Earl, which tended to make for a certain aura of redundancy about him). He was walking one day in his formal garden, admiring his roses, when he happened to notice a pool of black goo oozing out of the ground over by his begonias. His gardener was off somewhere, but the resident alchemist happened to be wandering by.

"What is that stuff?" asked the Earl (Earl Earl). Since the Earl tended to mumble, the alchemist didn't quite hear the question, so he asked, "Earl?'

But the alchemist was from one of the Channel Isles, the Isle of Joisey to be precise, and of course he had a Joisey accent, and it came out, "Oil?"

And that black, oozy goo has been called that ever since.

Well, anyway. . . .

The alchemist took some samples of the stuff and played with it for awhile. He knew nothing about polymers or long chain molecules or any of that esoteric stuff, but be found that by mixing it with other types of goo he had laying around and with the proper spells and incantations, he found that it had a certain plastic quality. He could mold it into various shapes and it would harden into that shape.

The Earl (Earl Earl), being an eccentric, used to combine both exercise and meditation by treading water in the castle moat while playing an Azerbaijani nose-flute (snouto flauto), which had come into the family when it was brought back by one of his ancestors who had gone on the Crusades, but had gotten horribly lost.

The Earl (Earl Earl) had long been interested in finding a different instrument. He wasn't all that happy playing the snouto flauto because he was plagued with sinusitus, and after a long session of treading water and meditating, the snouto flauto was a real bitch to clean. So he and the alchemist designed a sort of whistle with finger-holes made of the plastico material, which had shown signs of being pretty impervious to water.

This heralded in the era of plastico flauto. The plastico flauto became highly valued, not because of its tone quality (God knows!), but because of its durability. You could stomp on them repeatedly and more often than not, they could still be played. However, since the goo from which they were made was not readily available until relatively modern times when they found they could drill for the stuff, plastico instruments were exceedingly expensive, hence, rare. Many composers and musicians, not to mention audiences, regarded this as something of a blessing.

The Earl (Earl Earl) did, indeed, have a Japanese relative, but the actual nature of that relationship has never been clarified. Legend has it that the Japanese relative possessed an instrument very like a modern transverse flute made of bamboo.

This instrument had a beautiful tone, and many musicians wanted to buy it from him, offering him huge amounts of money for it. Seeing an opportunity here (he was a capitalist immigrant), he got the Earl's alchemist to make up a batch of plastico copies, which he tricked up and tried to sell as the original bamboo flute, but the sham was spotted right away, and the epithet, "cheap Japanese shite" came into existence. He tried to claim that because the plastico copy was developed in England, it should be regarded as an "Engrish frute."

By the way, trying to pass plastic off as genuine bamboo was the origin of the term "bamboozle."

Glad to help clarify these matters.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:20 PM

Certain little-known baroque composers used to mark their scores 'flauto plastico' to ensure the use of the correct instrument, as the subtle differences in tonal quality and temperament were considered more important than they are today. I believe there was also a 'transverso flauto plastico' in use at the time but these were not so popular. They were originally invented in the 15th century by the eccentric 6th Earl of Clacton for playing underwater - however, rumours persist that the Earl had a Japanese grandfather, which casts some doubt on the question of whether the instrument can be considered correctly as being 'traditional English'. To this day, scholars tend to think of them as 'cheap Japanese shite'.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Tootler
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:39 PM

WAV:

Take a look here and tell me if you see any reference to "English Flute" that is more than a suggestion that it might have been an alternative name for a brief period?

Also: how many people do you see/hear calling the transverse flute a "German Flute" these days?

Neither was really the formal name of the instrument. Composers in the 17th and early 18th century when they specified "flauto" on a score usually (but not invariably) meant a recorder. If they specifically wanted a transverse flute they would specify "transverso" on the score. The latter term died out during the 18th century as the recorder fell out of use as an orchestral instrument and "flauto" became the normal term for a transverse flute. When the recorder was revived in the late 19th century, then another name was found for it and so it has been called since.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:32 PM

Spaw - indeed. Also, if you read the article Dolmetsch refers to the instrument throughout as the recorder, & simply throws in an "or English flute" near the start for pedantic completeness.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:30 PM

"In other words, a Forth Reich Totalitarian Militarist World Order which enforces Ethnic Cleansing and Cultural Purity resulting in the Deaths of Billions."

Blimey; we're all going to end up being murdered in our beds by the Scots!!!!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:28 PM

"tedious and meaningless repetition" (Stu) just after "(The rest from you I've answered so many times before.)" (Me to IB)...damned if I do, damned if I don't.

No, David - the same people who are frustrated with your "tedious and meaningless repetition" are also frustrated with your failure to answer direct questions. Such as this one, which I've put to you three times already:

You've said earlier that it's a bad thing when people lose their culture; in many ways I tend to agree. But doesn't that mean that it's a good thing when immigrants keep their culture alive?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM

The crappola article which you found to make your English flute shinola is from 1941. All of us have given you literally hundreds of current sources and you hold to THAT piece of shit?

This simply shows your ignorance and overall stupidity. My guess is you are the same way on the job (in those rare times that you've had one) and is a probable reason you are rarely employed and have so much time to walkabout and learn flatass nothing. All this makes your crapass "Life's Work" completely worthless as you have learned less than nothing.

Spaw

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM

Under Wav's nationalism and global regulationism, French kissing will be banned and replaced with the English vice.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 03:02 PM

Then why is it wrong for someone to emigrate in search of a job to support his family?" (Volgadon)...I just gave one reason - all the capitalist/economic immigration/emigration of the last century hasn't solved the rotten inequality in the world - WE NEED "GLOBAL REGULATIONISM"

Let me rephrase that, in the light of Paul's words, from the New Testament, which as a Christian you said you believe, why is it wrong to emigrate in search of a job to feed your family?

Here's another question you have avoided answering NUMEROUS times, something to hide? I asked you if you would consider imperialism as imposing a set of ideas or culture on someone.

"tedious and meaningless repetition" (Stu) just after "(The rest from you I've answered so many times before.)" (Me to IB)...damned if I do, damned if I don't.

No, Wav. It is not a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. The problem is that you don't debate, discuss, explain or elaborate your position, you merely repeat dogma OVER AND OVER AGAIN ad nauseum (Latin tags, I love multiculturalism).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:55 PM

(The rest from you I've answered so many times before.)

You've never once explained how English culture is taking a hammering, or yet how people are suffering as a result.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM

"tedious and meaningless repetition" (Stu) just after "(The rest from you I've answered so many times before.)" (Me to IB)...damned if I do, damned if I don't.

I just put "recorder English flute" into Google for the sites I'd read years ago about this and found, for me, a NEW ONE! (just below yours truly): http://www.jstor.org/pss/727829

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:28 PM

There is a recorder consort that meets at a local church every week. They all call recorders "recorders," and oddly enough, David, the fellow who plays the tenor recorder calls his tenor recorder a "tenor recorder."

They are all thoroughly schooled classical musicians. The tenor recorder player also plays organ in that church for Sunday services. Bach, Handel, Buxtehude, etc.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:09 PM

The best thing about your rebuttals WAV is their total incoherence followed by their tedious and meaningless repetition

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:00 PM

"although there is is, of course, the Motor-Cycle Crash Helmets (Religious Exemption) Act 1976, Section 2A which exempts any follower of the Sikh religion while he is wearing a turban from having to wear a crash helmet." (IB)...then that's one relatively minor example of the problems of multicultural states...I wonder if any non-Sikh bikers here who'd rather take the risk have complained? And here's one present regulation, for what it's worth, that I'm actually against - the way I see it, not wearing a helmet is only increasing the chance of injury to the biker not others, so it should be up to the individual. (The rest from you I've answered so many times before.)

"Then why is it wrong for someone to emigrate in search of a job to support his family?" (Volgadon)...I just gave one reason - all the capitalist/economic immigration/emigration of the last century hasn't solved the rotten inequality in the world - WE NEED "GLOBAL REGULATIONISM" (poem above or directly here) for that.
"And again - "there AREN'T any neighbouring countries with this sort of refugee problem, so England won't have to be soiled by any asylum seekers! That is, unless there are some from Iceland, as I assume he would guide the French to Spain or Germany."
Was there any point you were trying to make by quoting me?" (Volgadon)...there has been and there could be, yes?


"The Normans, your ancestors, were some of the biggest imperialists and capitalist immigrants the world has known." (Volgadon) whether or not I have Norman ancestry, I've said I hate imperialism - be it Nazi, Victorian, OR ANY OTHER.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:29 AM

: why is it wrong for someone to emigrate in search of a job to support his family?

It often goes much further than that. About 30% of the national income of Moldova is remittances from emigres. I was in the Romanian part of Moldavia this summer and it obviously worked the same way there - there were hardly any men of working age, they were all away in Hungary or Western Europe sending money back. One woman we met had not lived with her husband for 17 years, her children hardly knew who he was. She was an emotional wreck, it was a horrible situation.

Now multiply that Moldavian village a million times. The amount of money sent back home by Third World workers in First World countries is vastly greater than the amount of aid money given by governments (and on the whole it's probably better spent).

It isn't just your family, it's your whole community.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:54 AM

"What do you think of this verse, from the New Testament which you profess to believe:
1st Timothy 5:8- But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." (Vogadon)...it's okay - but I'd add "try to"; as I've said in both verse and prose , safety nets are a good thing.

Then why is it wrong for someone to emigrate in search of a job to support his family?


The Normans, your ancestors, were some of the biggest imperialists and capitalist immigrants the world has known." (Volgadon)...you are so, almost imperialistically, sure of yourself, Volgadon - I'm only sure that all my known forebears were born here; I've heard about the crusading Franks, of course; I've heard that my great grandfather may have practised the jewish religion; I've heard about a famous Jewish family of spectacle makers in Manchester's past; and I've heard something about Franks coming here as translators during Bede's day..."The Normans, your ancestors"...wow, such confidence!

How is that IMPERIALISTICALLY sure of myself? You make no sense.
Out of curiosity, how far back do your known forebearers go? I bet it's not 1066, in which case my point holds up.
Oho, so if Jewish, then your ancestors were definitely immigrants, and quite probably CAPITALISTIC ones to boot. Who have you heard from about that, it wasn't that comment on the weekly walkabout was it? Franks is also a Jewish surname, but do you have any reason to think that your ancestors were Jewish? Just the turn of phrase, practised the Jewish religion tells me that they weren't.
Franks came over in Bede's day, but they didn't carry that surname (simply didn't exist), which is a later, Norman one! Even if they were those ones, they still IMMIGRATED! I repeat, no Franks went by the surname Franks, so I can say with confidence that they were probably Norman.

The crusading Franks??? Frank was just a generic term back then, which in the Muslim world came to mean ANY Christian, even Armenians.


And again - "there AREN'T any neighbouring countries with this sort of refugee problem, so England won't have to be soiled by any asylum seekers! That is, unless there are some from Iceland, as I assume he would guide the French to Spain or Germany." (Volgadon)

Was there any point you were trying to make by quoting me?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:56 AM

Apparently Vaughan Williams composed music for these home-made bamboo pipes. Here's an example: Finale Jig. Curiouser and curiouser...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:50 AM

one kind of flute I had thought was specifically English was the bamboo pipe

That rings a bell! Somewhere I've got a wee book about the making and the playing (and decorating!) of these chromatic instruments, but it hasn't showed up since the move. Here's the link to The Pipers' Guild.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:40 AM

We humans all blend into the one bland culture

Which is precisely what you are proposing for England.

A multicultural world including nations with a multiple number of cultures trying to live peacefully under the one state law, or having different laws for different cultures withing the one nation

We're doing just fine, Wavy. Once again you're confusing the facts and looking for trouble where there is none - although there is is, of course, the Motor-Cycle Crash Helmets (Religious Exemption) Act 1976, Section 2A which exempts any follower of the Sikh religion while he is wearing a turban from having to wear a crash helmet.

By the way, Wavy, you've yet to explain how English culture is taking a hammering, or yet how people are suffering as a result.

As is my myspace header "a multicultural WORLD" with eco-travel and fair-trade between nations, via a stronger more-democratic UN - rather than yet more conquest and ecnonomic/capitalist immigration/emigration (which has NOT solved the rotten inequality in our world).

In other words, a Forth Reich Totalitarian Militarist World Order which enforces Ethnic Cleansing and Cultural Purity resulting in the Deaths of Billions.

Otherwise...

as the transverse flute has also been known as the German flute for centuries, so too the recorder as the English flute; and, although we very rarely see them in orchestras, apparently classical musicians still tend to use the latter name

The recorder was not known as the English flute for centuries, rather it was but one of the names used for it for a brief period in the early 18th century - see above (somewhere). Is it really true that classical musicians call recorders English Flutes? First I've heard of it and I've worked with a fair few classically trained virtuoso recorder players in my time. Google English Flute and see what you come up with; you'll discover the recorder was called the English flute simply to distinguish it from the German Flute, not because of a particular association with England. You've been told this a million times but, as ever, your way is the correct one! Like that other Wavyism Capitalist Immigration, the term English Flute exists mostly in your imagination. But this is the Wavy approach to culture - if the facts don't fit your racist agenda of an ethnically cleansed and culturally pure England, then make it up until they do!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:29 AM

I have a few hundred scores of classical recorder music and quite a few CDs. None of them call the instrument an "English flute" in the title, and I very much doubt whether any publication ever used the phrase in its main title. It was only used for a fairly short time, from 1725 to about 1750, to distinguish it from the traversiere or German flute, but "common flute" was a far more frequently used term. "English flute" was simply a marketing phrase used to convey "you don't need to buy an expensive new transverse flute to play the music in this book, you can use what you've already got".

BTW, one kind of flute I had thought was specifically English was the bamboo pipe, as used in the 20th century make-your-own bamboo pipe consort music movement, which is still just about in existence. But on googling I see the movement started in the US.at around the same time (not an easy thing to search for, you keep getting sidetracked into opium and drains).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:06 AM

Wav: "......apparently classical musicians still tend to use the latter name.".......

What complete horseshit! Unlike your sorryass self, I actually do have both A) friends and B) friends who are classically trained and practicing classical musicians. Two of them also play RECORDER and I can tell you for a fact that neither refers to a recorder as an English Flute......ever. They have each been deeply involved in music since their early years (both are 60 now) and both have doctorates----One in Performance and the other in Music Education. So don't even try to pretend you piddling experience or pathetic degree somehow qualifies your limpdick self.

If and when a classical musician DOES refer to anything English about the flute, they refer to THESE transverse blown flutes of the period.

Note again they are transverse blown and not susceptible to the "WavyBlowBoy's Blow-Job Technique" which is the most ridiculous looking playing style for recorder I have ever seen!   Did you learn that from watching your dear, sweet, Mum at work? Or is it something you picked up on your own along with a case of clap?

Spaw

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:39 AM

WAV I mix with classical musicians. They call the recorder the recorder

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:26 AM

"What do you think of this verse, from the New Testament, which you profess to believe:
1st Timothy 5:8- But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." (Vogadon)...it's okay - but I'd add "try to"; as I've said in both verse and prose , safety nets are a good thing.

Tootler - yes, indeed: as the transverse flute has also been known as the German flute for centuries, so too the recorder as the English flute; and, although we very rarely see them in orchestras, apparently classical musicians still tend to use the latter name.

Ruth - the grass is always greener?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:31 AM

"I repeat, is the solution to leave, or to stay and be part of the solution?"

Can you explain why you are "part of the solution" by staying here?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:57 PM

In years to come, it may be called WalkaboutsVerse Syndrome. The symptoms being that sane, intelligent, thoughtful, liberal minded people completely lose the plot when faced with an intransigent, reactionary git.

FOR CRIES ACHE FOLKS, you are making WAV look rational.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:35 PM

No apology necessary Will, I just felt obliged to put the record straight. If anything, I apologise for my pedantry. I hope your organ's stopped wheezing.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:15 PM

Smokey: A colleague of mine (a historian) assures me that the question of Hitler's supposedly part-Jewish ancestry has now been soundly demolished - particularly in a book by Ian Kershaw, and that it falls into the category of urban myth.

On that basis - my colleague is a trusted friend I would ask for that part of my post to be retracted, with due apologies.

Will

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:12 PM

Will - it's a myth. Hitler's father was born out of wedlock, & *his* mother never said who the father was - but there's no reason to imagine that the unknown grandfather was Jewish. A story went round after the war that Hitler's mother had been a maid to a rich Jewish family & that when he came to power Hitler had ordered that family's house razed to the ground, but this story seems to be complete invention.

WAV:

- A multicultural world including nations with a multiple number of cultures trying to live peacefully under the one state law, or having different laws for different cultures withing the one nation..OR..
- As is my myspace header "a multicultural WORLD" with eco-travel and fair-trade between nations, via a stronger more-democratic UN

But these aren't alternatives. A stronger UN, green travel & fair trade are all good things, and they're all perfectly compatible with individual nations being multi-cultural. Or did you mean to say "a multicultural WORLD consisting of mono-cultural NATIONS"?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:10 PM

I personally remain unconvinced of Hitler's supposed Jewish ancestry. IIRC, the strongest case that can be made is that Hitler's grandmother got pregnant by someone, nobody knows by whom, and that Geobels was worried by some of the rumours.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Tootler
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:02 PM

Quote WAV:

Back on thread, the tenor recorder/English flute is chromatic for about 2 octaves from middle C, so, when one does get the fingering correct, it sings what's on the score.

I first played recorder over 50 years ago and I have been playing it regularly for more than 25 years and I have never heard it called the "English Flute". The Germans call the recorder "Blockflöte" (Block Flute - referring to its construction) and the Italians "Flauto Dolce" (Sweet Flute). Other European nations use their own versions of these names.

There was a time in the 17th/Early 18th century when the transverse flute was sometimes referred to as a "German Flute", purely to distinguish it from simply "Flute" which at that time generally meant what we now call a recorder.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:55 PM

Smokey: As far as I'm aware - and I retract my assertion completely if proved wrong - Hitler had some Jewish origins to his ancestry. The point I was trying to make, perhaps not very well, was the irony and stupidity of anyone being overtly racist when one can often be ignorant of one's own origins. And one's race, origins, religion, nationality, etc., should have no place in how we are treated or how we treat others.

If the analogy is wrong and/or offensive to some, then I apologise unreservedly to those people.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:35 PM

Will Fly - "and that from someone (Hitler) with Jewish roots."

Please Will - not only is that utter bollocks, it's also highly offensive to a great number of people. Not unlike racism, in fact, and possibly worse. I respectfully suggest that you retract the statement.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM

"- A multicultural world including nations with a multiple number of cultures trying to live peacefully under the one state law, or having different laws for different cultures withing the one nation.."

That sounds just fine.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:31 PM

When you say multicultural WORLD, you mean a world comprised of different MONOCULTURES which do not mix. One can enjoy watching the different cultures, much as one does animals in their cages in the zoo.

What do you think of this verse, from the New Testament, which you profess to believe:
1st Timothy 5:8- But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

"The Normans, your ancestors, were some of the biggest imperialists and capitalist immigrants the world has known." (Volgadon)...you are so, almost imperialistically, sure of yourself, Volgadon - I'm only sure that all my known forebears were born here; I've heard about the crusading Franks, of course; I've heard that my great grandfather may have practised the jewish religion; I've heard about a famous Jewish family of spectacle makers in Manchester's past; and I've heard something about Franks coming here as translators during Bede's day..."The Normans, your ancestors"...wow, such confidence!

How is that IMPERIALISTICALLY sure of myself? You make no sense.
Out of curiosity, how far back do your known forebearers go? I bet it's not 1066, in which case my point holds up.
Oho, so if Jewish, then your ancestors were definitely immigrants, and quite probably CAPITALISTIC ones to boot. Who have you heard from about that, it wasn't that comment on the weekly walkabout was it? Franks is also a Jewish surname, but do you have any reason to think that your ancestors were Jewish? Just the turn of phrase, practised the Jewish religion tells me that they weren't.
Franks came over in Bede's day, but they didn't carry that surname (simply didn't exist), which is a later, Norman one! Even if they were those ones, they still IMMIGRATED! I repeat, no Franks went by the surname Franks, so I can say with confidence that they were probably Norman.

The crusading Franks??? Frank was just a generic term back then, which in the Muslim world came to mean ANY Christian, even Armenians.


And again - "there AREN'T any neighbouring countries with this sort of refugee problem, so England won't have to be soiled by any asylum seekers! That is, unless there are some from Iceland, as I assume he would guide the French to Spain or Germany." (Volgadon)

Was there any point you were trying to make by quoting me?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:19 PM

- We humans all blend into the one bland culture..OR..
- A multicultural world including nations with a multiple number of cultures trying to live peacefully under the one state law, or having different laws for different cultures withing the one nation..OR..
- As is my myspace header "a multicultural WORLD" with eco-travel and fair-trade between nations, via a stronger more-democratic UN - rather than yet more conquest and ecnonomic/capitalist immigration/emigration (which has NOT solved the rotten inequality in our world).

Back on thread, the tenor recorder/English flute is chromatic for about 2 octaves from middle C, so, when one does get the fingering correct, it sings what's on the score.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:15 PM

I've NEVER said this

Wavy, if you were hell-bent of absolute purity of your repatriation you'd be living in the place you were born rather than floundering round as an economic migrant in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. One must ask why, and when one looks at the facts and figures over at the Commission for Racial Equality site and looks at such Wavisms as England was a more English place 50 years ago, then it's not so much a matter as putting words into your mouth as it is doing the math.

as I have, rather, said to you before, there's what we want, and there's the tactics we are prepared to use

What I want is an unregulated world of freely evolving organic culture and humanity much as we've enjoyed for the last 35,000 years or so, give or take the occasional hiccough. What you want, on the other hand, is a Fourth Reich Totalitarian World Order based on absolute racial and cultural segregation and a complete reactionary suppression of anything that doesn't fit into your insane notion of what constitutes Englishness. Tactics? First look at our desires, Wavy - only then think about tactics.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM

I didn't say you were, consciously and wittingly, a storm-trooping racist. I indicated (giving the example of those pursuing the doctrines of Gobineau) that the pattern of discrimation, inequality and ultimately, extermination first of culture and then of those members of "inferior" races as taken to its ultimate conclusion in the Third Reich, leads down that path. That is the tragedy of those like you unable to think logically. "I'm not a racist but . . . ". There's always a "justifying" but. You say it will stop after the elimination of vestiges of "alien" culture, your particular bee in bonnet being musical instruments that did not originate in England. The reality is otherwise. Go figure.

German musicians will not play their own traditional music, they play Irish instead. Their culture is a shameful thing to them, because it was hijacked for the "Aryan Cause". Yes, they're ashamed of their own songs and tunes, as all of us would be if we survived a parallel event here. Is that what you want?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:17 PM

"I've only questioned the act of immigration itself - NOT criticised any particular culture or race."

That's disingenuous, David. If you can get "immigration itself" banned, then you wouldn't have to be bothered by the presence of any other race or culture.

One law to keep all the wogs out.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:09 PM

I've only questioned the act of immigration itself - NOT criticised any particular culture or race

To say that you're racist doesn't mean that you've criticised any particular culture or race. (While I'm about it, we're well aware that you love the world being multicultural.) You want to preserve English culture by excluding foreign influences. In other words, you want to exclude foreign people from England (from now on, if you insist), because you see them as a threat to the purity of English culture. That is racism.

Any chance of giving some thought to my question about assimilation, by the way? You've said earlier that it's a bad thing when people lose their culture; in many ways I tend to agree. But doesn't that mean that it's a good thing when immigrants keep their culture alive?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 12:55 PM

In among all the other rubbish he just posted because he hates not me but immigration being questioned, I must respond to these words in my mouth: "Just as you moved to the North-East because it has the lowest percentage of ethnic minorities in the UK" (IB)...I've NEVER said this, and it was NOT the reason: I was UE in Manchester, and spent a weekend checking out the NE - another good place for the kind of manufacturing I've long been in and out of for years - via trains...

Poem 162 of 230: TEES TO TYNE: FIRST IMPRESSIONS - SUMMER 2001

Where traditions are not so rare;
    Sea, country and works scent the air;
A multitude of monuments,
    Planted tubs and patterned pavements.

The longish pedestrian malls;
    The remnants of defensive walls;
"Broken-roofed buildings" are a gauge
    Of the respect for heritage.

Wheat, rape and pines in the fields;
    Estuaries guarded by shields;
Long sandy beaches and wide scenes;
    Romantic-ruin go-betweens.

Rivers in parts licked by trees,
    Or fringed by boat clubs, wharfs, gantries,
And crossed by practical delights -
    Varied spans, forming pleasing sights.

Fine churches headed at Durham;
    Football kits ad infinitum;
Kept castles - one for study;
    Masonry behind masonry.

And, with moulding-works out that way,
It's somewhere for a longer stay..?

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

(IB - as I have, rather, said to you before, there's what we want, and there's the tactics we are prepared to use.)

Will - given/accepting all that, as I keep stressing, what is best FROM NOW ON...

Diane Easby: "racist filth" is false and defamatory filth (I've only questioned the act of immigration itself - NOT criticised any particular culture or race); and then "I spent two years trying to persuade them to do something - anything - other than Irish."...