BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 16 - 10:57 AM

In a word, classical or traditional anti-Semitism is the discrimination against, denial of, or assault upon, the rights of Jews to live as equal members of whatever society they inhabit. The new anti-Semitism involves the discrimination against, denial of, or assault upon, the right of the Jewish people to live as an equal member of the family of nations, or their right to even live, with Israel emerging as the targeted collective Jew among the nations

Irwin Cotler



Compared to most previous anti-Jewish outbreaks, this [new anti-Semitism] is often less directed against individual Jews. It attacks primarily the collective Jews, the State of Israel. And then such attacks start a chain reaction of assaults on individual Jews and Jewish institutions…In the past, the most dangerous anti-Semites were those who wanted to make the world Judenrein, 'free of Jews.' Today, the most dangerous anti-Semites might be those who want to make the world Judenstaatrein, 'free of a Jewish state.

Per Ahlmark, former deputy prime minister of Sweden



Oh, Canada indeed

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 16 - 10:45 AM

Pfr,
Keith - You are not listening to us in that there are degrees of antisemitism - say a scale from 0 - 100 -

I did listen and I agree and said so.
I did not attack Richard except to say,

"Richard, I am sure you deny your antisemitism even to yourself, but it was revealed in your post where you accused the EUMC board members, mostly Jewish, of having a "vested interest" in widening the definition of antisemitism to gain more "influence." "

The subject was then dropped for two weeks until Steve decided to make an issue of it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 May 16 - 10:23 AM

"turn"... ??? "turd".. see what I mean.....



bobad - oh.. Canada.. ok..

Ten signs you might be getting slandered by accusations of anti-Semitism

Scott Weinstein - steering committee member for Independent Jewish Voices Canada

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 16 - 09:52 AM

I tried on and off for four hours to get that post to take.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 16 - 09:42 AM

As far as I can discern, the document to which you persistently refer was never an official EU document and was set aside three years ago. Please demonstrate that it is a valid piece of evidence to support your case. Show me that it has, as you say, been agreed and endorsed by the member nations. I can't find this anywhere. In addition, I've read it through. There are parts of it with which I disagree, so I'm glad it was set aside. It's flawed, in my opinion, containing statements that would serve to restrict legitimate criticism of Israeli actions.

I don't usually worry about spellings on forums, but as this is one of your pet subjects I suggest that you spell "antisemitic" correctly in future.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 May 16 - 09:10 AM

Keith - You are not listening to us in that there are degrees of antisemitism - say a scale from 0 - 100 -
and the 'crime' you accuse Richard of is at the very lowest end of the scale as far as any sensible reasonable person would consider it....

Once you accuse any folk of unintentional / unaware antisemitism and use exactly the same word to describe it
as we might to call out white supremesist neo n@zis thugs who absolutely hate all jews and 'half & quarter' jews
you are guilty of unintelligent inconsiderate name calling verging on slander.

You can also be seen as a rather silly hysterically over reacting person out of touch with the real world
'crying wolf' at the slightest imagination of antisemitic language or behaviour...

It doen't matter what abstract definition you resort to, in the real world you can make yourself look a real plonker !!!

.. and if you are not careful, a malicious one at that...............



THINK for a minute or 2 about this..
How would you like it if you were out for a quiet pleasant drink
and the pub bully [some local petty official] suddenly yelled out in front of every body
making a big fuss calling you a paedo !!!
You are completely innocent, but he has a grudge against you and deliberately followed you around town
until he could get a phone cam photo of you walking past a group of school kids at a bus stop...

That's kind of like what pro Israeli Regime extremists are constantly trying to do to their opposition,
and more than definitely what lies behind the recent wave of attacks on Corbyn and the Labour party...



Now keith, whatever your intention for opening this thread, I personally have found it very interesting
and a stimulation for parts of my mind and knowledge that have been dormant and gone rusty for far too long;
due to all the shit life can through at a bloke to distract him from serious thinking - so sincere thank you......


However tech problems have rendered this thread so slow to respond and open
that it is becoming near impossible to follow and contribute.

Dont know if it's mudat or my Chrome install...???????

But I'll persevere for the time being...............


[not spell checked or previewed - because mudcat is as slow as a constipated turn these days..]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 16 - 08:22 AM

The Ottawa Protocol, comprised of 250 parliamentarians from 46 countries reaffirmed the EUMC working definition of Antisemitism at a conference in Ottawa in November, 2010.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 16 - 04:29 AM

That's what you don't understand, Keith.

The EUMC board were describing anti-semetism, not Israel.
The criteria they agreed, endorsed by all the nations of the EU, show the views expressed by Richard to be anti-semetic.

You think you know better.
I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 16 - 04:33 PM

The vested interest is preventing valid criticism of Israel. The influence means influencing people to attack critics of Israel by being able to call them antisemitic. All to do with politics, nothing to do with ethnicity. That's what you don't understand, Keith. That antisemitism is attacking Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS, not attacking them because of their politics or public statements or behaviour. You may never see it, you being you, but at the very least you should refrain from calling people antisemitic when all they are doing is criticising the politics, policies, statements or behaviour of people who may be Jews. Or not. Even you admit that the committee was "mostly" Jews. Yes, I did notice that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 16 - 03:35 PM

Richard said,
"Have a look, Keith, at the composition of the advisory board of the panel that adopted the obviously and irrationally over-expansive definition of antisemitism that you like. All have a vested interest in an over-broad definition."

His exact words.
The composition of the board was provided by him in a link.
Mostly Jews.

Note his description of the criteria accepted by the EU!
What "vested interest" did they have?

He then said,"And the vested interest of the members of that board is that the the wider the definition of antisemitism, the more influence they can gain."

More influence?
What influence?

The accusation of antisemitism within Labour have all come from within Labour.
The media is just the messenger.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 16 - 11:43 AM

Amen to all that, too! 🙂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 May 16 - 11:16 AM

I've mentioned this before on a previous mudcat thread..

my old mum is as sweet loving caring a person as you could ever hope to meet.. not a nasty bone in her body.

She is innately highly intelligent, but never had much formal education due to wartime evacuation, leaving school to care for older family members,
and a life time of menial cleaning and unqualified care worker jobs.

Her Dad, who deserted her at an early age, was a fairly well off Jewish man, probably too afraid of his family and culture
to marry the pretty poor gentile girl he got pregnant..

[who knows the real history.. cue Mills and Boon version..]

Anyway, my mum is not resentful.. she's quite proud of being half jewish [even if by some technical formulations she might not be...???]

But I cringe at the thought of any 'real' jews overhearing her talking out in public...

For example, one of her favourites at shop checkout counters...

"Oh I love a good bargain, it must be the jew in me.."

Stooping to pick up any coins she sees on the pavement "It's in my blood, it's the jew in me"

She sincerely believes these stereotype myths, not with any prejudice, but with pride.

Who am I to tut tut and try to ideologically re-educate her..???

or even explain 'real' proper jews might definitely not value her as one of their own.


Real life can be far too complex for 'weaponised' artificial technical academic definitions... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 16 - 10:50 AM

Amen to all of that, Steve. Absolutely correct, as always.

And, of course, when your mother was in her formative years, and when I was in mine for that matter, 'coloured' and 'negro' were in general use as the polite terms of reference for people who were dark-skinned, usually of African or Afro-Caribbean origins. 'Black' was, in those days, generally regarded as being as insulting as 'n****r'.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 16 - 10:33 AM

"Anti" means against, opposing. If you are antisemitic you are against Jews because they are Jews. You can't be accidentally opposed to Jews. It's a conscious decision. Yes you can make remarks that sound antisemitic if you're not careful, just like you can make sexist remarks even though you're not wanting to be consciously sexist. It's a hard grind is watching your every word. In my Catholic schoolyard days disparaging language regarding Jews was rife. If I wouldn't give you a sweet I was called a Jew for being tight. If I'd cheated you out of something, I was accused of jewing you. The Catholics who ran the place never corrected us, to their profound discredit. It takes years to readjust your mindset away from stuff like that. My mum is one of the most anti-racist people I know and always has been, but she still talks about "the coloureds." Arguing for a bit more political correctness is fine. Setting draconian linguistic traps for people, just because you want to protect Israel from perfectly valid criticism, is diabolically wicked. If the cap fits, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 16 - 10:18 AM

"Groupings of Jews Steve?
The groups accused by Richard were not "Zionists," just Jews"

Some may be groupings of Jews, Some may be a mixture of Jews and non-Jews. Some may be groups of Israel supporters of no particular ethnicity. Some may be all Jews but who don't agree among themselves (lots of Jews do not support the Israeli regime's actions apropos of Palestinians, for example). It is what they say and do and advocate that is the issue, Keith. Suppose I said to you that YOU are calling Israel a grouping of Jews. After all, you defend to the hilt the fact that Israel calls itself a Jewish state. A grouping of Jews if ever I saw one, a rather large grouping at that. Let's suppose a grouping of Jews, who made no secret of the fact that they are Jews, advocated a particular policy. I then said to you that that grouping of Jews are advocating...whatever it is. I might want to put it that way if the grouping were, say, acting in an overtly pro-Israel manner. It would be slightly ludicrous to lose courage and say "that grouping of people" instead of "Jews," for fear of being branded antisemitic by the likes of you and your disreputable friend. If the group were advocating planting a bed of pink geraniums instead of red ones in the local park, and I gratuitously called them Jews, you would doubt my motives, rightly so. Being Jewish has nothing to do with the colour of geraniums. It might have something to do with policy regarding Israel. In the post above you are trying to put words in my mouth, like you did with Richard, like you did with Geoffrey Wheatcroft. Well that doesn't work with me. I'm far too straightforward for that. You wanted me to say groupings of Jews so that you can call me antisemitic. Well I could say to you that you're calling Israel a grouping of Jews, so you're antisemitic. But you didn't actually say those words, did you, and I'm not going to make that unjustified extrapolation. The same one YOU'VE made with Richard and Wheatcroft, and that you're trying on me. Tough. Find someone else to practise your inane trickery on.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 16 - 10:16 AM


.. so basically then.. any good decent anti racist folk can accidently fall into a trap of being unintentionally antisemitic;

No. They can be antisemitic without seeing it.

and as a consequence be torn to shreds and publicly pilloried by any harsh unforgiving hostile activists & lobbyists predetermined to find opponents to discredit ..

I have not done that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 May 16 - 09:54 AM

.. so basically then.. any good decent anti racist folk can accidently fall into a trap of being unintentionally antisemitic;
and as a consequence be torn to shreds and publicly pilloried by any harsh unforgiving hostile activists & lobbyists predetermined to find opponents to discredit ..

.. just because of changes to arcane definitions dictated by specialist elite bodies of academics and bureaucrats that most folk have never heard of...

.. unfair old world.. innit...!!!??? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 16 - 09:46 AM

The issue is whether the criteria are being manipulated. In my mind, they are, wholesale, by groupings the world over.

Groupings of Jews Steve?
The groups accused by Richard were not "Zionists," just Jews.

You are entitled to your own view of what constitutes antisemitism, and I am entitled to point out that the universally accepted view is different.

By the criteria accepted by all the nations of the EU, Richard's statement about Jewish groups was anti-semitic.

You are entitled to believe that you know better, and I am entitled to disagree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 16 - 06:16 AM

The issue is whether the criteria are being manipulated. In my mind, they are, wholesale, by groupings the world over. In fact, it would be totally naive to deny that. It is the reason we're haggling over what antisemitism really is. Why you think the two Labour politicians in the firing line are antisemitic, when patently they are not. The real, core definition is deadly simple: antisemitism is attacking Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. Not because they live in Israel or north Manchester. Not because of their political views. Not because of their religion. Not because they sometimes group together to form lobbies. Not because some of them hate Arabs. Not because the Israeli regime represses Palestinians. I want justice for Palestinians and for the Arab citizens of Israel. That is not remotely antisemitic. I don't think a state that is less than three-quarters Jewish should be calling itself a Jewish state. It is not antisemitic to say that: it is a considered opinion for which I've given my reasons. Not because some Jews are rich. Of course, some unjustified prejudices can be rolled together into an antisemitic whole: "Look at that typical Jew, rolling in money because he's so mean with it." It is NOT antisemitic to say that AIPAC consists largely of Jews who are pursuing a pro-Israel agenda. It happens to be a fact. Of course, like any fact it can be used tendentiously. Let's keep our antennae tuned for that, the honest thing to do. It's not even antisemitic to say that AIPAC enjoys undue and undemocratic influence over politicians in a supposedly democratic country (and I do say the same about the gun lobby and multinational corporations. I suppose bobad will be here any minute to tell us that I only mean the ones controlled by Jews). If you think that Richard made a factually incorrect statement, challenge it and correct it if you can and hold the slurs. Do not put words into his mouth as you did with Geoffrey Wheatcroft, and as you're doing with Richard in this instance, just to suit your own agenda, which is to use every means at your disposal, both honest and dishonest, to suppress any criticism of Israel. If you think that anything that I've said is OK is actually antisemitic, as opposed to factually incorrect, then you've fallen, possibly willingly in your case, into the trap of believing that widened definition.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 16 - 04:36 AM

It is not an unjustified accusation that, by the criteria agreed by the EU, 28 democratic nations, that Richards statement was antisemitic.

You are entitled to your belief that you know better.

Do you endorse Richard's statement Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 16 - 04:29 AM

Well think for yourself for a change and desist from throwing unjustified accusations around. The EU also specifies the size of duck eggs, the maximum curvature of cucumbers, and gives farmers money for growing weeds.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 16 - 04:19 AM

The board was mostly composed of Jewish groups, which Richard identified.
It makes no sense to suggest that the single non-Jewish group might have a vested interest in manipulating the criteria of anti-semitism to increase its influence.

Pfr, I acknowledge that this is not blatant anti-semitism which does exist.
I acknowledged that Richard did not recognise it as anti-semitic. Steve does not either.
It is a matter of opinion, but by EU criteria it is anti-semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 16 - 01:55 PM

Richard did not say " the Jews on the board." That is a bare-faced lie. Completely disgraceful, and defamatory to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 01:32 PM

Keith - please keep it in perspective..


if you want to see real antisemitism on an internet board..
go take a peek at "What do u think of half-jews, quarter-jews etc?"

One of the top of the list links provided by google when I recently searched for up to date info on my status/identity as a quarter jew by bloodline... 😒

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 01:21 PM

EUMC on anti-semitism,
"Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 01:20 PM

Bob = 😇 ... yeah... as innocent as a cat that did a shit on top of your bedroom wardrobe and tried to blame the short legged dog in the kitchen downstairs.... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 01:19 PM

There has been no antisemitism posted whatsoever. If you disagree, then you clearly haven't a clue what antisemitism is.

We disagree on that.
Richard claimed that the Jews on the board had a "vested interest" in gaining more "influence" for themselves.

That is anti-semitic, however much you deny it.
Richard has not tried to defend it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 16 - 12:36 PM

You're guilty all right, of calling reasonable people Jew-haters, of misrepresentation, of arch bigotry, of cowardice, of sniping from behind the wall and of posting under multiple identities. Apart from that, you're a real little innocent, aren't you. Sweetness and light personified.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 16 - 12:28 PM

Troll:

Make a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.


If asking someone to back their claims with evidence is trolling then I plead guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 16 - 11:45 AM

You called Richard antisemitic. That is a very bad thing to call someone. It is a personal attack even if it's true. It is name-calling. It means the same as Jew-hater. When it isn't true, which it isn't, it's a hundred times worse. I've scoured this thread end to end. There has been no antisemitism posted whatsoever. If you disagree, then you clearly haven't a clue what antisemitism is. Feel free to dredge up alleged examples from this thread and I'll cheerfully take them to pieces for you. No worries. You had no right to call Richard that, now here you are sanctimoniously lamenting the fact that we don't especially care to engage with "issues" raised by the biggest confounded bigot on this forum, a forum cheat to boot, with whom you have shown yourself to be in bed. Go on, I dare you. Read all of his posts in this thread. Then come back and tell us all what a fine, upstanding man he is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jeri
Date: 19 May 16 - 11:43 AM

The tactic is often called "trolling".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 11:25 AM

.. ditto.. your calls for 'evidence'...

again, a deflecting and distracting tactic.... !!!!!

Why should your opponents bother wasting their time and debating focus.. you are already more than aware of the evidence yourself...

That is, if I am correct in crediting you with some political intelligence and awareness.....???????? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:51 AM

Would you care to identify these pro Israeli Government regime supporters, who are acting to silence criticism of Israel, Mr.Punk?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:51 AM

Bob - .. and 'deflecting'.. that's another of your 'sneaky' tactics.....

Attempting to dictate the terms of engagement so that your opponent is momentarily defused
by having to waste breath and energy defensively refuting your slanderous accusations of antisemitism,
rather than pursuing their valid line of arguments against your pernicious invective..... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:34 AM

I wish what I say was just a fanciful entertaining 'conspiracy theory'...

Very sadly, it's all too grounded in reality and truth....

As well you know.... 😠


You really are revealing yourself to be a nasty piece of work..

Off you go again.. as expected..

.. manipulate and distort, cynically misconstrue, and discredit anyone who stands up to you.. that's all it 'seems' you are capable of...

"wrong-foot
(verb) to wrong-foot someone means to manipulate the situation to make an innocent person look bad, guilty. or inept.
Often used by sly people to deflect the blame they deserve onto someone else"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:29 AM

So Steve, I was responding to an actual point made by Richard in an actual post.

I did not attack him for perceived personal failings, as you do.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:27 AM

Steve,
By the way, you called Richard an antisemite on May 8. Which he is patently not.

He did make an anti-semetic statement.
I said this about it.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 08 May 16 - 02:01 AM

Richard, I am sure you deny your antisemitism even to yourself, but it was revealed in your post where you accused the EUMC board members, mostly Jewish, of having a "vested interest" in widening the definition of antisemitism to gain more "influence."

Livingstone and others also deny their antisemitism, but there it is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:03 AM

So Punkie, still no evidence for your conspiracy theory. Now you're playing the anti Muslim card. This is getting better every day. Looking forward to the next installment.

I said "pro Israeli Government regime supporters" - I did not ever say "Jews"

Sure Punkster, just like these guys:

Rik Little If I can I stay away from preloaded titles like Jew. It wastes too much time arguing with idiots. I say Zionists or AIPAC worshipers.
13 hrs

David Blomstrom The problem is that "Zionist" doesn't include Jewish bankers, the Jews who control the media, etc. A better term is actually "Jewish Mafia," but I still often use "Jews" simply because the Jewish Mafia is so big.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 16 - 09:51 AM

"Steve, whatever you may think of contributors, just respond to the issues they raise.
Attacking them as people is against the rules, so why do you keep doing it?

Why not just challenge what they post, and make your own case?
What is the problem?
You do have a case?"

Oh yes, I have a case all right, and it's writ large all through this thread. Bobad/anonymous Guest does not "raise issues." He snipes, attacks and name-calls. You are not brave or honest enough to to do as I suggested this morning, trawl through all his posts in this thread. And if attacking worries you so much, where were you in those threads in which he anonymously called perfectly fair-minded and reasonable people "Jew haters?" You were never far away, Keith. It's about time you made an honest man of yourself. You could start by reminding yourself of Pastor Niemoller's famous quote. By the way, you called Richard an antisemite on May 8. Which he is patently not. Thst was a personal attack and a name-call. And a lie. What have you to say for yourself, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 09:18 AM

Cheers keith.. always reassuring to know folks are are real human beings behind the mudcat nom de plumes and often theatrical constructed personas... 😎


Bob - that's Mr Punk if you don't mind... though 'Pfr' is always ok...

I've just missed a train to visit my mum to sort her meds out, so have a few spare minutes...

I think I can guess at the point you are struggling to infer....???

What I said in your 'quote' is reasonably well considered and clearly meant. It still stands...

Make note and remember.. I said "pro Israeli Government regime supporters" - I did not ever say "Jews".

I since discovered the individual professional political blogger
who unearthed the Naz Shah quote and set the ball rolling...

He is a desperate mercenary attention seeking tosser who does this on an industrial scale to benefit his own personal bank balance.

Right wing media depends on this kind of freelance 'researcher' to create stories for them.

This story was an ideal opportunity to set up a hostile anti labour attack in time for the elections.

All and sundry with a grudge against Corbyn in particular, and Labour in general, could jump on board make a hasty opportunistic meal of it.

.. including pro Israeli Government regime supporters, and anyone else more than happy to attack Labour
at a time when the party is attracting a massive new sign up of grass roots members..

many of these new members being muslims...

Draw your own conclusions....

well Bob, you already have anyway.. even before I started writing this post... ????

so you have a good head start..... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 16 - 08:37 AM

only to have to put up with you and Bobad ignoring what we have previously written and repeating the same things over and over again.

Kind of like this eh Punk:

I would point to the above quote from pro Israeli academic / activist"David Hirsh" posted by bobad,
which serves very adequately to reinforce my 'suspicion' that a network of bloggers and well funded 'think tanks/research groups'
are constantly monitoring and cataloguing every social media post by problematic individuals they regard to be anti israeli...


Someone, somewhere needed to dig up those old social media statements by 'the MP' Naz Shah and bring them to high profile media attention
so close in the run up to elections.....


I have more than made clear my informed suspicion that any Labour party 'problem' with antisemitism
has been fabricated by 'agencies' outside of the party,
who have lobbed truck loads of mud with the desperate intent that some sticks...


this current crisis is a storm, manufactured by pro Israeli Government regime supporters, to silence criticism of Israel and to benefit the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 07:14 AM

Real life comes first Pfr.
Good luck with your trials.

Steve, whatever you may think of contributors, just respond to the issues they raise.
Attacking them as people is against the rules, so why do you keep doing it?

Why not just challenge what they post, and make your own case?
What is the problem?
You do have a case?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 07:01 AM

"Pfr,
What's happened in the last couple of weeks is a clear attempt by right wing media, tories, Israeli regime supporters,

There is no conspiracy. It all came from within Labour.
No one outside Labour sees Corbyn as a threat."

Keith - Think what you want to think... it's your thread after all...

Mudcat tech problems are making following this thread to much of a chore.
It takes far too long waiting for the thread to open and stabilise,
only to have to put up with you and Bobad ignoring what we have previously written
and repeating the same things over and over again.

I have enough of that in the real world since my mother was diagnosed with dementia.

The same conversation several times a day because nothing I need to say or explain sinks in...
day after day after day,.. it's mentally exhausting....... 😩

Your dogmatic denials and accusations regarding the Labour party are becoming the equivalent
of my mother constantly asking where her bus pass is, and what day is it today....

Sorry, if you take that as an insult, or me resorting to personal abuse.. but there you go... I'm exhausted...

I tries to remain patient staying on topic and addressing the thread topic issues.
But you refuse to listen and understand.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 16 - 06:01 AM

"Likewise all your accusations against Bobad.
Why do you do it."

Absolutely typical piece of denial by Keith. Puts him firmly on the side of the bigots and racists. Do some work, Keith. Go through every one of his posts in this thread. Then come back and still tell me there's no case. Do you condone the secret use of multiple identities, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 03:56 AM

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/baroness-royall-oxford-university-labour-club-anti-semitism-jeremy-corbyn-anti-zionism_uk_
Updated yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 03:55 AM

Huffington Post is not "right wing press."

"Labour is facing a fresh row over anti-semitism after the party failed to publish a full report into claims of misconduct by Oxford University students.

Baroness Royall's inquiry into Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) found no evidence of "institutional anti-semitism", but she stressed that the party faces "difficulties" in providing a "safe space" for Jewish students.

And the former Cabinet minister made clear in a blog that "there is too often a culture of intolerance where Jews are concerned and there are clear incidents of antisemitism".

In a hint that her own conclusions had been misrepresented by the party, Baroness Royal told the Jewish Labour Movement that she shared its 'disappointment and frustration' that her findings of incidents of anti-semitism were not getting enough attention."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 03:14 AM

Steve, no obnoxious views have been expressed here.
If they were, why not just refute them?

All that stuff I refuted was personal.
It was about me, not Labour.
Likewise all your accusations against Bobad.
Why do you do it.

I think that if you could make a case, or defend your position, you would.
You go personal because you can't.

Pfr,
What's happened in the last couple of weeks is a clear attempt by right wing media, tories, Israeli regime supporters,

There is no conspiracy. It all came from within Labour.
No one outside Labour sees Corbyn as a threat.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 16 - 09:51 PM

So no denial of your profound dishonesty and cowardice then. Why would I ever have expected that. And fragile I am not. Why would a searingly honest man, set alongside a pusillanimous coward such as yourself, feel "fragile"? Not me, mate. My only weakness in dealing with dreadful people like you is that the seriously-misguided moderators here are far more likely to back you than me.

I accuse you, in the certainty that I'm right, of being the long-time anonymous coward-Guest who hid behind the cloak of anonymity in order to call us Jew haters. I challenge the moderators here, who have the golden opportunity of getting rid of you on grounds of faking multiple identities, to close your account and see you off for good. It would be a small but relevant step in maintaining the good name of this place. Obviously, I'm not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 16 - 08:04 PM

From the obsessiveness and fragility you've been displaying in your posts lately I would think Bedlam is where we should be looking for you if you disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 16 - 05:38 PM

This man who accuses us of making personal attacks is the same man who hid behind the anonymity of "Guest" so that he could call some of us, from behind that wall of anonymity, Jew-haters. He claimed that he needed anonymity so that we would have to address the issue, not the man. Yet, from that position of anonymity, he called us Jew haters. The real shame is that he is still here at all (defended, naturally, and disreputably, by Keith). On any other website that I'm a member of, anyone faking multiple identities, as he has done, would be instantly expelled. When you think he did it in order to make anonymous attacks, it looks ten times worse. Still, it's not our gig, and Joe Offer told me that he and Max are fine with people expressing obnoxious views. Yes, Joe, that's what you told me. Don't make me prove it, please. That people like me, Dave and Musket are the usual suspects, pains in the arse, etc. But never mind that, obnoxious viewpoints freely expressed are just fine. Attacking them can, however, get you banned. All you need to do is to lack tactics and diplomacy.

Do you think I'll get away with this? I doubt it. If I disappear, look me up on the Session or the Gaughan forum and we can keep in touch.