BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:52 PM

By the way,

On the subject of Jim, note the word "if".

Note also that "if" he can be said to support violence, then that puts him in the same category as you.

So if you despise him, you sentence yourself to the same status by your own set of criteria.

Idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:49 PM

It is clearly a horrendous crime to fire rockets at either Israelis or palestinians and I repeat my condemnation of that.

No hot air bags deflating though, ... in fact you seem to have plenty in reserve ...

... I think I may have confused you by blowing a raspberry at your pathetic smugness.


When you've answered my questions realistically we'll talk about who's full of hot air.

Would you care to provide any more red herrings as part of your mealy mouthed support for Israeli aggression against innocent civilians?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:32 PM

yes ... bobad .... I do hear the hot air bag deflating.

Well ... interesting video Bobad. Forget about asking if it is justifiable if Israeli's should fire rockets at Palestinans to ... is it justifiable for Palestinians militants to fire rockets into crowds of Palestinian civilians.

It's all madness

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:09 PM

I hear the distant hissing of hot air as the bag deflates.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:58 PM

Bollocks Bill.

The IDF reacts with swift brutality to peaceful demonstrations.

The idea that they would sit in a burning building surrounded by armed men who are firing off live ammo without making any attempt to disperse them is political satire on a plate.

I note by the way that there are quite a few now who are lning up to defend Israeli violence.


If Jim is defending Hamas rockets then he can go and join you lot on the naughty step.

It doesn't change my position one bit.

I oppose killing civilians, you guys ... all ... dfend it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM

"Jim Carroll for some reason wants to go back to 1982 "
Er... no he doesn't - he wants to find some way out of the present mess, and the only way to do this is to work out a compromise that could provide the basis for a settlement.
The present Israeli drive to acquire territory, and the opposition to that drive can be dated back to the Six Day War; the logical starting place, for me - within living memory.
I'm not seeking an overall victory for one side or the other, just a practical basis to conduct negotions.
Otherwise, why not go back to the concept of 'The Promised Land' - I'm sure you'd find enough religious nutters to back the claim and carry on the fight until someone presses the button, then you can all happily go to meet their maker, happy in the conviction that they have 'fought the good fight'.
The present conflict is down to a botched attempt to create a Jewish homeland, not unsimilar to equally mess situations left behind in Ireland and in India/Pakistan.
You fellers seem happy to let the killing go on till Israel wins, by whatever method at their disposal - total victory, nothing less.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM

The clear and obvious start point Kevin is the League of Nations Mandate that called for the setting up of a Jewish Homeland in Palestine.

Well, the Balfour Declaration came before that, but yes, that was the bad idea that started the whole thing off. The whole ugly "a land without a people for a people without a land" lie. The scraping of Palestinians to make room for Jewish settlers (still happening today!).

If somebody said, "We're going to carve out a Muslim homeland in southeast England -- they have been settling there peacefully for years, and it's only fair," would the English be happy with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:42 PM

It's probably fireproof ... molatov cocktails are commonly used ... any such post's construction would account for such weapons.

come on Lox ... you can do better than that.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:37 PM

"Lox, you are blinded by hatred. "

I hate murder.

But my eyes are clear.


PS Bill, Bobad et al,

In your Video, the roof of the Israeli watchtower is on fire.



Do the IDF have a policy of burning to death until shot at?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:32 PM

MGOH,

Of course you could go back to the Crusades, with Christians massacring Jews, along with the Arabs with whom they were living amicably. There's hardly ever anywhere you can draw a line in history and say "that's where it all started".

Oh No Kevin you do not get away with that. There is a very clear historical start to what we now call the Middle-East Problem, it started at the end of the Great War and the break-up of the Ottoman Empire - Arab/Jewish problems prior to that? Non-existent and there had been settlement by Jews entering the area under Turkish rule for damn near 70 years!!!

The clear and obvious start point Kevin is the League of Nations Mandate that called for the setting up of a Jewish Homeland in Palestine.

To Lox, having looked at the video, the Palestinians who filmed the guy shooting through the hole in the wall were shielded from the IDF position by the factory they were firing into. The Israeli soldiers might have heard them they certainly would not have been able to see them.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:19 PM

I personally know 2 people who served in the IDF.

It is common for them to do patrols, guard posts such as one in the video ... day in and day out a constant barrage of rocks, glass bottles thrown at them, constant shreiking going on, and yes many times guns going off ... they don't shoot back. They do so only when the heat get's extremly hot and they themselves are in definate danger.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:17 PM

Here's another video that poses some interesting questions about the Ghalia family tragedy on the beach in Gaza.
VIDEO

Note that the Human Rights Watch spokesman is none other than Marc Garlasco, the same guy who's penchant for collecting Nazi memorabilia and cruising Nazi chat rooms led to his "resignation" from HRW.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM

"You think that the IDF would allow a mob of palestinians to run around near an IDF base shooting off AK47s and M16's?"

yes.

they will only shoot back ... when getting shot at.

watch the video ... they aren't shooting at the army post.


Palestinians militants are noted for walking around in large crowds shooting off their guns in the air ... real macho cowboys they are ... with total disregard to the children around them.


anyway, never expected the "Israeli bashing gang" to be swayed in any way whatsoever as a result of watching this video.

Richard Landes is credible. Definately not one to present such facts for clown bandstanding.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:00 PM

Hatred? I haven't seen Lox say anything to justify the use of violence by anybody - in contrast to most if not all those "supporting" Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM

Lox, you are blinded by hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:45 PM

Of course you could go back to the Crusades, with Christians massacring Jews, along with the Arabs with whom they were living amicably. There's hardly ever anywhere you can draw a line in history and say "that's where it all started".

The point I was making, Teribus, is that in the current conflict over the last couple of generations, every atrocity can be seen both as a provocation and as a reprisal for a previous atrocity, according to the point of view of the people reporting it. That's pretty normal in any conflict of this sort, for example in the Balkans in the wars of the past decades, or in the time of the German occupation, for that matter.

That doesn't measn that the two sides in such conflicts are equivalent - but it means that talking in terms of a distinction between reprisal and provocation is essentially meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:37 PM

Bobad,

Explain why the IDF don't make any attempt to find out what is going on and why they allow it to continue?

Then explain why the website only has 3 "investigations" on it.

Then explain why they are all focussed on the Israel-Palestine situation.

Then explain why they all take the Israeli side.

Then explain why these videos have the same narrator as the video you posted on your atrocity thread which was banned from youtube within an hour of having been posted there?


Because it is staged.


And you Bobad are as mendacious as they come.

May you drown in your own bitterness.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:27 PM

Thank you biLL, I will enjoy watching the gullible try to discredit this video, I see one has started already, this should be entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:26 PM

re Bills Video.


You think that the IDF would allow a mob of palestinians to run around near an IDF base shooting off AK47s and M16's?


No rubber bullets?

No tear Gas?


Were they asleep?


Those films were faked - but not in Gaza or the west bank and not by palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:24 PM

LUNK-head: "The premise is that there are no IDF guns being fired so therefore the scenes have been staged by palestinians ...

There is no way that the IDF would stand around doing nothing whilst a mob of armed Palestinians allegedly spent half an hour making a movie with guns, petrol bombs etc."

Sure there is!...did it ever occur to you that maybe the IDF isn't being the aggressors, as much as YOU and your band of other LUNKS are portraying?..That being said, I'm pretty sure there has been indiscretions, and violations by the IDF, but not as a matter of 'policy', as you tend to portray!
Just consider, just for a moment......Duhh....maybe they are acting in self defense...I mean just maybe........
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:20 PM

MGOH asked:

"Which came first the chicken or the egg"

Jim Carroll for some reason wants to go back to 1982 as it seems this helps his argument but it does not answer Kevin's question.

While what we now refer to as Palestine was under Ottoman control Jews were allowed to settle they first started settling in the area around 1857.

Now how many Jews were killed by Arabs in 1857?
How many Arabs were killed by Jews in 1857?

I think you will find the answere was damn few if any at all because if there had been trouble the Turks would have sorted both sides out in short order.

First World War comes and goes and the idea of a Jewish "Homeland" is decided upon and the UK is given the Mandate by the League of Nations to adminster an area referred to a Palestine and set this Jewish Homeland thing up. UK Government and Foreign Office are fully behind it, the British military who have been out there do not think the idea will work, they view it as a recipe for disaster.

In 1920 up along an area of border between French Mandated Syria and Lebanon and British Mandated Palestine there are three small villages where land had been farmed by Jewish settlers for about thirty years. The French are having trouble with the local Bedouins. The Bedouins descend on one of these villages looking for french soldiers who are on the run, in the search the Bedouins open fire and massacre the villagers - Strike 1 to the Arabs

Along comes Yasser Arafat's Uncle (who wishes to style himself the Grand-Mufti of Jerusalem) in 1921 and spreads a completely false rumour about Jewish settlers attacking, robbing and killing Arabs. Plain truth is that no Jew has attacked, robbed or killed any Arab. In the ensuing riots many Jewish homes and businesses in Jerusalem are attacked and robbed, Jews are killed. Finally a less than enthusiastic British military restore order, and investigate the riots and here comes the kicker. The bastard who started it all cons the british into giving him the title he wanted on the grounds that he is the best person around if the want the situation kept under control - Strike 2 to the Arabs

Same thing happens again in 1929, lies are told Arabs riot and kill Jews. This time Arafat's Uncle is sentenced to a term of imprisonment but escapes into Trans Jordan and Syria - Strike 3 to the Arabs

The town of Hebron had been a Jewish community for over 800 years in 1929 the Arabs drove these Jews who in no way could be termed settlers from their homes and property killing 67 of them. It is now regarded by many as a totally Arab town, those same people then argue theArab "Right of Return" - but it's only selective and by no means does it apply to all.

Please note that up to this point no Jew or Jewish settler has attacked, robbed or killed an Arab yet. They have been taking it on the chin and relying rather foolishly on the British to do what their Mandate requires them to do.

But after the riots of 1929 they decide that relying on the British is not a good idea, they will form their own defence organisation and so the Haganah is formed.

The role of the Haganah was to warn the residents of and repel attacks by Arabs. Members of the Haganah had been instructed to only defend communities and not initiate counter attacks against Arab gangs or their communities. This policy appeared defeatist to many who believed that the best defense is a good offense. In 1931, the more militant elements of the Haganah splintered off and formed the Irgun.

1936 comes along and between 1936 and 1939 there was what was called The Great Arab Revolt. During the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, the Haganah participated actively to protect British interests and to quell Arab rebellion using the FOSH, and then Hish units - Strike 4 to the Arabs but this time the Jews fought back so let's call this "honours even"

During the Arab Revolt the Peel Commission finds that Jew and Arab are incapable of sharing one nation and they propose a two-state solution. It is rejected by the British Government and by the Arabs out of hand. It is also rejected by the Jews but they are prepared to view it as a start point for negotiation.

During the Second World War the Jews fought Hitler Arafat's Uncle the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was Hitler's Guest of Honour, he rasied Muslim SS Units in the Balkans to hunt down Jews and resistance fighters.

After the Second World War comes to an end the British Mandate for Palestine is due to expire in March 1948. Both Arabs and Jews start to jockey for position. The newly formed United Nations propose a two-state solution which the Jews accept and the Arabs reject out of hand. Tit-for-tat attacks take place between Jew and Arab with the Brits caught in the middle. The British leave in accordance with the expiry of their original mandate and the Jews declare independence and the State of israel is born. It is immediately recognised by the United Nations and the United States of America. The Arabs attack but are defeated in the ensuing war signing an armistace in 1949, during the War Egypt has invaded and occupied Gaza which it holds onto and Jordan has invaded and occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem which it holds onto. Both Egypt and Jordan will hold onto their ill-gotten gains until they are driven out by Israeli forces in 1967.

Any nearer to answering your question Kevin?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:18 PM

BB - I note you answered Jim but ignored me ...


""If this has been the case, it is no reason whatever to deprive the ordinary citizens of medical care,.."

IF there is a history of attacks being made ( in violation of international law) from marked ambulances, THERE IS REASON to restrict the approach and crossing of those vehicles. ANY claim to the contrary is ridiculus. "

So why not allow medical supplies in?

BTW - I condemn the rockets ...

... And I condemn the Israeli government and the IDF.

And the self defense argument is bollocks.


As for the idea that Israel keeps getting frstrated by palestinians in negotiations, ...

... would that be by their own continueing policy of evicting Palestinians from their homes in east jerusalem and the west bank and building illegal jewish settlements?


If Hamas and Israel sat down at the table to discuss how best to dehumanize Gazans they couldn't find a more effective way.

They tacitly collude with each other.

I condemn them all, but there are those who lie to themselves and say that Israel acts only in self defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:17 PM

THANK YOU biLL number 6!!!!
Now, LOX, Have YOU ever been in a war zone???...Nah, I mean a REAL ONE!...I mean, besides 'in front of you T.V.!?!'
That was a great video link!

Gullible Morons on parade!!!...then they think everyone else is as stupid as they! Sorry, didn't work...AGAIN!

So, bottom lining it, you DO support the firing of missiles into Israel, based on your quasi-political astuteness, based on T.V. fiction!!!.....

GfS

P.S. ...and meanwhile the radical ass-brains fire on innocent people, while using innocent people to hide behind!!!

I hope the earth is rid of everyone of ANYONE who does that shit!

See Ya'...Waves!

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:06 PM

Thanks Bill.

Your website and its long standing unbiased analysis of the media (3 cases, all takig the Israeli side against Palestinians in incidents in Gaza) is all very interesting.

Thats why I prefer to get my info from people like Amnesty Interational who are non partisan.

PS - The narrator appears to be overlooking one slight detail ...

... all those palestinians congregating around an IDF base with guns and the IDF make no attempt to disperse them?

The premise is that there are no IDF guns being fired so therefore the scenes have been staged by palestinians ...

There is no way that the IDF would stand around doing nothing whilst a mob of armed palestinians allegedly spent half an hour making a movie with guns, petrol bombs etc.

These films may well be staged - but not by palestinians.

The website is not impartial, it exists to discredit palestinians anbd all 3 of its "investigations" focus on that task.

And yes the videos are staged - by someone with an anti palestinian agenda.


This is consistent with the faked videos that were released by the IDF after the flotilla murders.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:49 PM

The reason I posted the links to the 'garbage' truck(S), it the FACT that these vehicles can hide and fire in the more heavily populated area, thinking that they can do their attacks, not be detected, and wrongly figure that a response would be held back, because they are concealed, concealed in a populated area, and counting on Israel would not want either the responsibility for the casualties, nor the 'bad press' casualties...Really???..In war, you are going to count on the 'better nature' of someone you just fired on????!!??? Sorry, the responsibility goes to the ones firing from the midst of a populated area.
As so far as my question to the slick tongue Jimmy, it is obvious to see, that HE DOES support Hamas, attacking Israel, and firing into THEIR populated areas...and that is a STUPID. and ERRONEOUS position.

My position is ALL of the killing over this bullshit is wrong!..and yet, self defense is in itself understandable, but Israel has been frustrated by the numerous attempts to negotiate.

As for 'LOST in Cream Cheese', ...yes you silly sot, I have been in a war zone...and not by choice; so shove it where the moon don't shine!
..maybe you can see if your Mummy will let you out of her basement!
Shit, maybe even look for a job!

So, with the 'logic'(?) employed by the radical nincompoops in here, I guess you support radical terrorist's actions in other places, as well, for the same idiotic reasons...as long as you can safely watch it on you T.V.s.......after the cartoon hour!

All of the killing, both sides is needless, and stems from century old hatreds, but politicized for justification!..because even they KNOW it needs justification!!!!...just some of you bozos don't think so, and eat up their crap!

Ok, now, you can have you cookies and milk, and pot!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:43 PM

Israel allowed Lebonese malitias to conduct operations, for which I think there were trials.

Now, when Hamas is more interested in helping their people than hurting Israelis, there might be a chance at peace- BUT Hamas is required to contol those in it's territory, and it's failure will continue to result in Israeli attacks ON THOSE LAUNCH SITES as long as Israeli citizens are being targeted by those illegal rockets.

In the invasion, Israel complied with International Law and warned the citizens of Gaza that they were attacking. Have you EVER heard of Hamas warning of any rocket launch? Yet you justify the rockets (a violation of International law), and condemn Israel (in compliance with international law).


"If this has been the case, it is no reason whatever to deprive the ordinary citizens of medical care,.."

IF there is a history of attacks being made ( in violation of international law) from marked ambulances, THERE IS REASON to restrict the approach and crossing of those vehicles. ANY claim to the contrary is ridiculus.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:37 PM

watch this ....

Pallywood

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:25 PM

"You obviously ignored the FACT that the Palestinians have used Red Cresent marked ambulances to carry attack teams into checkpoints"
If this has been the case, it is no reason whatever to deprive the ordinary citizens of medical care, especially as much of this has been made necessary by attacks by Israelis.
"Still waiting....."
And I am still waiting for a reply, or even an acknowledgement of Israel's participation in mass murders - a simple yes or no will do.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:22 PM

"I suppose the British could have responded to IRA|bombs by carrying out airstrikes on Dublin... "

Or Derry, or west belfast.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:20 PM

"You obviously ignored the FACT that the Palestinians have used Red Cresent marked ambulances to carry attack teams into checkpoints"

Well then why not allow medical supplies in?

Witholding these is tantamount to the same thing and is also contravenes internaytional law.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

"Have you looked at access across the Egyptian border? Is it any different? Yet you comment ONLY on Israel: That is indicative of a bias on your part."

No BB.

I repeat (for the thousandth time)

I condemn EVeRYONE who commits these crimes.

Egypt is also to be condemned for its part in the blockade.

I condemn Hamas for their role in damaging Gazana lives and hopes.

I condmn Egypt for blockading Gaza.

I condemn Israel for its desire to collectively punish Palestinians in Gaza - though to be honest I don't see it as punishment, I see it as calculated cruelty - "whos the daddy" etc.


"Still waiting on the details of how you will return the property of the 820,000 Jewish refugess driven out of Arab nations."

Not sure what this has to do with Israeli aggression or any other point that I have made - unless it is being presented as another justification for killing arabs ...

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:15 PM

"The launch sites" for these primitive rockets are random places in the fields from which the rockets were fired. The people killed in "immediate destruction" are more likely to be people working on the land than the people who launched the rockets, who aren't too likely hang around after firing them.

Of course anybody killed will be identified by the IDF as responsible for firing the rockets. Dead men tell no tales. Nor do dead women or children.

I suppose the British could have responded to IRA|bombs by carrying out airstrikes on Dublin...

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:47 PM

"those deaths caused when sick people have been turned back from hospital based on the arbitrary medical judgement "


Lox,

You obviously ignored the FACT that the Palestinians have used Red Cresent marked ambulances to carry attack teams into checkpoints, in violation of International Law. Since then, Israel has the right to prohibit ALL access across the borders- yet allows most. Have you looked at access across the Egyptian border? Is it any different? Yet you comment ONLY on Israel: That is indicative of a bias on your part.

Still waiting on the details of how you will return the property of the 820,000 Jewish refugess driven out of Arab nations.


Still waiting on why the peace discussion should not go back to the LASR borders that the Arabs accepted- NOT the pre-1967, but the 1923 ones. The peace treaty with Jordan uses them: The peace treaty with Egypt uses them- but all I hear here is a call to return to the pre-1967 borders.

Still waiting on what Israel SHOULD do when rockets are launched at it's civilian population- I presume the immediate destruction of the launch sites has been rejected.

Waiting to hear how the Pakistanis should be given their homes ( now part of India) back, since they lost them because of the division of a British possesion.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:37 PM

"I would posit that if the number of Israeli deaths were zero then those of Palestinians would also be zero."

Consider the case of 1996 shelling of a UN compound in the village of Qana (aka the New Testament Cana) in which 106 civilian taking shelter there were killed and around 116 injured. "A United Nations military investigation later determined it was unlikely that Israeli shelling of the U.N. compound was the result of technical or pr"ocedural errors."

And then again in 2006 "In the deadliest single incident in the ongoing Israel-Hezbollah conflict, an Israeli air strike apparently demolished a three-story building in the village of Qana in southern Lebanon, and according to the Red Cross, killed at least 28 displaced civilians, including 19 children, most of whom handicapped or mentally ill, who were sheltering there. The Lebanese police reported at least 56 fatalities, including 37 children."

Of course these were Lebanese rather than Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 10:15 AM

"I would posit that if the number of Israeli deaths were zero then those of Palestinians would also be zero."
You mean like - "Surrender earthman, resistance is futile"? There are no grounds at all to suggest that Israel would cease its annexation of territory and return to the pre Six Day War borders, or stop the settlements, or the evictions.......
Maybe the Palestinians should march in an ordely line into refugee camps, where they will be treated to some TLC - as they have in the past!!
From the Israeli point of veiw it is a war of expansion and with their track record, anybody would be insane to surrender into their hands.
Or do you know something we don't?
Those figures don't include those massacred BTW (and we still await an acknowlegement from the Israeli apologists).
"This is a very nasty and ill-tempered thread, not much reason on display as far as I can see."
This is an extremely emotive subject for most people and the bulk of the nastiness comes largely from a small handful who have consitently resorted to personal abuse - our 'Sane' friend being the front runner at the moment.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 09:48 AM

"the Palestinian casualties are the result of Israel responding to Palestinian aggression"

While there may be examples of Palestinian deaths cused by Israeli self defence, there are many more caused simply in retaliation, and more still caused in incidents unrelated to Hamas activity.

Then there are those resulting from deliberate neglect for, and merciless crushing of the weak, eg those deaths caused when sick people have been turned back from hospital based on the arbitrary medical judgement of soldiers with no medical knowledge.

Amnesty

Above is a link to Amnesty Internationals recent summary of the situation which is pretty much identical to my assessment.

Note the following passages.

"Israeli soldiers also continue to shoot at Palestinian farmers, fishermen and other civilians when they venture near Gaza's perimeter or approach the three nautical mile limit that Israel imposes on Gaza's coastline causing deaths and injuries."

And on the subject of health and deliberate neglect.

"Health
Gaza's health sector has been plagued by shortages in equipment and medical supplies during the blockade.

Following the Israeli closure of crossings, people with medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza have been required to apply for permits to leave the territory to receive treatment in either foreign hospitals or Palestinian hospitals in the West Bank.

The Israeli authorities frequently delay or refuse these permits; some Gazans have died while waiting to obtain permits to leave the territory for medical treatment elsewhere.

World Health Organization (WHO) trucks of medical equipment bound for Gazan hospitals have repeatedly been turned away, without explanation, by Israeli border officials."


Don't talk to me about Self defence.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 09:34 AM

This is a very nasty and ill-tempered thread, not much reason on display as far as I can see.

I think we all know the situation in Gaza, Israel, the West Bank, both factions believe themselves to be victims...both with some reason. This exercise in abuse will solve or illuminate nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 09:25 AM

Jim, you may as well talk to the wall – I would imagine that most people reading this thread have been waiting for Keith and Co. to capitulate to the stronger argument, but it appears that the more reasoned you are the less they comprehend. Sadly, it is this very attitude that is perpetuating the atrocities over there.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 09:18 AM

Excellent point Bobad .... but that is too complicated for them to figure out.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 09:00 AM

Since the Palestinian casualties are the result of Israel responding to Palestinian aggression I would posit that if the number of Israeli deaths were zero then those of Palestinians would also be zero.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 08:27 AM

This is your blah-blah
These are the figures from the conflict since the year 2000. Those in brackets are those under the age of 18.
                          Pales.             Israeli
2010                20 (5)          5 (0)
2008 - 2009    1457 (355)         44 (5)
2007                 396 (43)         13 (0)
2006                 678 (127)         25 (2)
2005                 216 (52)         48 (6)
2004                 828 (179)         108 (8)
2003                 588 (119)         185 (21)
2002                 1032 (157)         419 (47)
2001                 467 (82)         192 (36)
2000                 295 (85)         43 (0)

The overall total of casualties since 1987 are – Palestinian = 7506 (1449), Israeli - 1540 (142)

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 08:10 AM

GfS.

You have never been in a war zone and you have never witnessed atrocities like you described.

You've seen a man die - most people do at some point in their life.

Experience of the latter does not equate to knowledge of the former.

I note you haven't answered my yes or no question.

Do you have an answer?


No!

"That is a rather biased and stupid assumption on your part"

No assumption, not even an opinion. When you were asked about Palestinian suffering you said "blah blah"


In other words you see that as irrelevant rubbish.

Jim says that he abhors the suffering on both sides.

You wrote a lovely bit of prose about dying Israelis, but when it came to dying palestinians you saidf "Blah Blah"

No assumptions, and the words in your mouth were yours.

"That, more than likely, will NOT include some ratchet jaw, with slick sophistry, to merely impress himself, spouting hatred for groups of people....and in doing so, distorts, or ignores FACTS!"

A textbook example of projection.

Why am I arguing with a nut job?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 07:31 AM

PS Do you think that the Shatila and Sabra massacres were crimes against humanity and should those involved be tried for mass murder as were those implicated in similar crimes in former Yugoslavia YES OR NO?
Answers on a plain postcard please.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 06:57 AM

"Keep in mind, Hamas fires first....."
As our absent friend Keith pointed out, Israel has been killing Palestinians for around 38 years; the massacres of Shatila and Sabra took place in 1982 where Israelis participated in the slaughter of up to 3,500 refugees - which gives them a pretty good head start, don't you think?
Yours faithfully - blah, blah, etc
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 06:53 AM

Hamas fires first

Which came first the chicken or the egg? Which is the chicken and which is the egg?

There is no distinction in principle between the "provocation" and the "response". They are two sides of the same coin.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:13 AM

OK, Hamas fires missiles aim at Israel..Israel retaliates, hits civilians(collateral damage)..Keep in mind, Hamas fires first.....

Now just why collateral damage...........

then there is a question, as if the tubes can launch missiles..

What did anyone expect??????????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:43 AM

Jim, A lot more hot air and Blah-blah

Look at all this squirming and manipulation of words, and topics!

Do you support or approve of Hamas firing missiles into Israel? YES or NO!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:25 AM

You are saying that no incontrovertible evidence exists.
Belief in it has to be a matter of faith and prejudice.
In the absence of evidence, I will just keep an open mind.

No. I am saying you are NOT keeping an open mind, and are dismissing real evidence because of your faith and prejudice. Which is exactly what you're doing.

When we know for an absolute fact that people are actively making up lies, is it not perfectly reasonable to be sceptical of all such claims without good evidence?
Let's keep open minds.

Being skeptical of all claims and keeping an open mind are mutually exclusive. The problem is your definition of "good evidence" which clearly means "evidence that has been stamped OK by Israel."

I've noticed that the Hamas apologists are fond of finding and quoting Jewish voices of dissent.

You don't accept what Arabs say about the crisis. And now you deride people putting up the words of Jews about the crisis. Just whose word will you accept? Oh wait. I know. Only people who find no fault with Israel or the IDF.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:10 AM

"then denounced as an 'enemy of the Jewish state"
Like Mordechai Vanunu, who was jailed for 18 years for telling the world what it had a right to know, that Israel had developed nuclear weapons.
Apart from their treatment of the Palestinian people, the fact that such an unstable and extremist terrorist State has the power to blast us all to hell is reason enough to stop their gallop.

" Israeli nuclear whistle-blower Mordechai Vanunu was freed from jail on Sunday after serving 11 weeks behind bars for breaking the terms of his release and meeting a foreigner, a prison official said.
"Mordecai Vanunu was freed from prison on Sunday morning," a spokesman for the prisons authority told AFP.
Vanunu began serving a three-month sentence at a prison in Ramle near Tel Aviv on May 23.
A court had in December ordered him to do three months community service or serve three months in prison for violating the terms of his release from jail back in 2004.
The former nuclear technician was arrested in December at a Jerusalem hotel while talking to a Norwegian woman -- a violation of the terms laid down when he was freed after serving 18 years for disclosing the inner workings of Israel's Dimona nuclear plant to Britain's Sunday Times newspaper
The 55-year-old had opted for community service but asked the Supreme Court if he could perform it in Arab east Jerusalem for fear he would be harassed by Israelis on the mainly Jewish western side of the city.
The court rejected his request and ordered him to serve three months behind bars.
Vanunu was originally jailed in 1986 and spent more than 10 of his 18 years in prison in solitary confinement.
Since then, he has been detained several times for violating the terms of his release that ban him from travel or contact with foreigners.
Vanunu became an international cause celebre during his time in prison.
At home, he is still widely reviled for converting to Christianity shortly before he was kidnapped in Italy and shipped back to Israel.
Israel is widely believed to be the only nuclear-armed power in the Middle East, with around 200 warheads, but it has a policy of neither confirming nor denying that."

There has been some puzzelment over and criticism of the continued harshness of Vanunu's treatment, in the Israeli press, and the conclusion is that the Israeli authorities are concerned about his passing on information of the United States's collusion in their development of nuclear weapons.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:24 AM

Sorry, I didn't catch this one, before I hit 'Submit Message''

Lox:I note that you find the image of Israelis suffering like this to be upsetting, but you don't have any interest in Palestinians suffering the same fate."

That is a rather biased and stupid assumption on your part....and an incorrect one at that. Shame on you!!!
You should apologize...but you won't, seeing as...never mind.....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:19 AM

Lox: "Have you?
NO!"

If you want to stuff words in my mouth, and answer your questions you ask me, then why ask them? You're making up your own shit!..Oh, and by the way, you're answer you made up for me, is not 'NO', but yes...and yes I have held a man, that I didn't even know, and as I was kneeling, cradling him in my arms, he died. It's a rather 'sacred' if you will, experience......if I were to accurately describe it, it was something like his 'inner clothes', if you will, were yanked out of him, and he just....um,.. went limp, and became as weight.(Sorry, I've never described this before in print).

Actually, I don't go much into my personal life or history, not even my gender on here. But, I'll give you an honest opinion, the best I can. If I'm wrong, and I learn something, I'll own up to it, and more than likely thank whomever, for the new knowledge, or insight.

That, more than likely, will NOT include some ratchet jaw, with slick sophistry, to merely impress himself, spouting hatred for groups of people....and in doing so, distorts, or ignores FACTS!

Fair Enough?

GfS