Collapse of the Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:51 PM

we generally only book from personal experience and if these chaps haven't turned up at any of the clubs we regularly attend or any of the festivals we do, then we just won't have come across them.

But you allowed my punk band........:-)

I'd take a chance on Len Graham!! Just one of the finest singers ever to come out of Antrim. http://www.storyandsong.com/len.htm

There will be someone who has heard him sing whose opinion you can trust surely. Otherwise you are limiting yourself a bit - I'd say......

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:29 PM

Oh bugger.

I was going to post the link to an LT piece about Jim Carroll and Pat McKenzie's work to get the 500th post, but this thread is so unwieldy now that Dave beat me to it.

But I will anyway:

Living Tradition

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:27 PM

Captain Birdseye
if you havent heard of John Lyons and Len Graham,youhave missed two very fine traditional singers
I don't doubt it for a moment but, as I said, we generally only book from personal experience and if these chaps haven't turned up at any of the clubs we regularly attend or any of the festivals we do, then we just won't have come across them. We decidedly do not book on the basis of recordings.
It is gradually emerging to me that Jim Carroll is someone of value. Shall we say that he didn't exactly present himself in an endearing way to start with by being extremely judgemental on the basis of very little evidence.
By the way, I don't run the club we are a large committee.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:21 PM

And 500

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:21 PM

Some of Jim's collecting is on Puck To Appleby I believe.....

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:49 PM

Snail,well you may run a very good club, [your workshops look interesting]but if you havent heard of John Lyons and Len Graham,youhave missed two very fine traditional singers[Ithink Iam Qualified to judge].
Jim Carroll is a respected collector,and is very knowledgeable about traditional music.
Snail,Both the above mentioned artists have recorded,it might be a good idea to seek them out.DickMiles

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:36 PM

Thank you Bryan

You say the nicest things:-)

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Vincent van - GO!
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:35 PM

Well, I live in Canada's largest city,(Toronto) and live accoustic music preformance venues have become a bit of a joke here.
We have one excellent club (Hugh's Room) and that's about it.
A smattering of smaller places where recording artists gather, play feature sets, and basically sell their cd's to each other...
which is fine community support, I suppose - but kind of inbred, in a way -
Back when clubs flourished, it was very difficult to record - affordabiity.
Now it's dirt cheap (digital technology) - so this feels far more useful, and a reasonably positive use of one's time and resources.
Karaoke bars, strip clubs, sports bars...all struggle along.
But of course, the reason for the dearth of club audiences is easy to track....where are they all? Wander into video and dvd rental outlets on Friday and Saturday nights - they're all in there. Home entertainment.
Concerts still do well. Major venues draw at outrageous prices. Wealthy people still have the need to parade in public.
But any kind of grassroots thing - struggles in this city.
There is no college crowd (which used to be the backbone of support, traditionally, in North America.)

Even 25 years ago, back in the early eighties, when I ran a small club here, and the roster of young writers and performers was top-rate, most of these all had good day jobs - it was not something they were doing for a living.

I believe another important factor in North America anyway - is the population shift - away from urban to suburban and exurban. 70% of the population now live in these settings - and there is precious little of any kind of accoustic-based entertainment you will find in these locations.
People will fight their way downtown to attend a major sporting event - certainly not to sit in a small club.

I believe also, with modern music trends, there is a kind of stigma - attached to what many regard as "simplistic" or even "old-fashioned" music. There is no mainstream attraction any more.

I would think that with various styles and traditions, folk music does better in locales where it was first born. It tends to do better in places with longstanding roots and tradtions - for example, the celtic styles in our Maritime region on the east coast.
These just don't "import" as well as they used to do.

Of course, living in a cosmopolitan city, world beat is alive and well and very strong - and this has replaced much of what went before - which makes sense. Newer arrivals are playing their own stuff, and are supported within their own communities.
A lot of it - is still the music of the people, and in a way, could be described as folk music - just not in traditional European or North American styles.

I'll leave you with a story. Back in 1982, I used to frequent a club here in Greektown called "The Trojan Horse."
Their house band - was an assorted collection of men who called themselves Los Campaneros....and this was anywhere up to 15 different musicians - many who could be found on stage at the same time.
They played standard instruments (guitars, piano, bass, viloin, etc.) as well as more exotic instruments from the Middle East, South America, Africa, etc.
On a given night, one might have seen perhaps 40 different instruments played.
They were truly a united nations assortment. They sang in Spanish, Greek, Arabic, Turkish, Persian, African dialect...almost everything except English.
They sang truly anthemic and heroic material - with great rousing choruses that would feature harmonies from perhaps 10 or more singers at the same time.
They would often switch instruments in between songs...a guitar player would grab a flute, the flautist would sit at the piano, the piano player would pick up the bass, the bassist would take up the violin........
My second or third visit to the club, I sat closer to the stage, and in a break in between sets, got brave enough to say hello to the piano player. I noticed he was missing a middle finger on one hand (an industrial accident.)
These musicians were all blue collar workers.
I spoke to him - saying I was only an English speaker, and what were all these magnificent songs about? What did the words say?
He smiled and said...we all learn the lyrics of each others' songs - it is easy. We come from many places of extreme hardship, all over the world - and here, we sing to congratulate each other on our freedom to sing what we believe, what we feel, what we have overcome in our lives.
I miss that place. I miss that band.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:08 PM

Good Grief! Go away to Chippenham for a few days and all Hell breaks loose. Slow down. I can't keep up.
Thank you to all those who have understood and supported what I am trying to say, especially Brian Peters who adds the authority of a great performer and one who actually knows us. Sorry I left you off the list of performers I failed to impress Jim Carroll with, Brian, but at least you were saved the humiliation of being told that you don't "ring his bell". (There was no need for all the flattery, we're going to book you again anyway.)
I particularly liked Tootler's -
The ethos is to encourage people to "have a go". I have seen people who have been persuaded to have a go after a little gentle arm twisting turn in a creditable performance.

and Richard Bridge's -
Do not prescribe to the performer. The will to improve must come from inside. Discourage the performers and you damage your rootstock.
which sum up our philosophy pretty well.

Jim Carroll
I apologise to 'Snail' if I have been heavy handed in my criticism of his Q&A; I certainly did not mean to give personal offence.
Thank's for that Jim. I was getting pretty close to thinking you were just a cantankerous old &%£* whose opinion wasn't worth having. A couple of points you have made have changed my mind.

singers who brought skill, enthusiasm and, most of all, love and respect to the old songs.

I have spent most of my life involved in folk song, mainly in the clubs, and I have got a great deal of pleasure, and some knowledge out of that time, but I believe that, along with that pleasure comes a responsibility to play fair by the Walter Pardons, Tom Lenihans, Harry Coxs, Sam Larners and the many others who gave us what we have.

With those sentiments, you would fit into the Lewes Arms Folk Club very well.

On the other hand, I thought -
Sorry, being old enough to remember when Lewes had the reputation of being a good club
was a bit uncalled for. If you ask around, I think you'll find we have pretty good reputation these days.
The problem with the Q&A is your total failure to understand the point I was trying to make so I'll try and make it a bit clearer.
FolkieDave's band from hell have never performed at the Lewes Arms and never will because they don't exist. They are a figment of his fevered imagination. He posed a hypothetical question describing an extreme situation which is highly unlikely to happen. If it did it wouldn't go that way anyway. If three blokes turned up with guitar, acoustic bass and bodhran they would obviously be hoping for a floor spot. They would get one. We wouldn't take them into a side room to give them a quick audition and interrogate them as to their musical qualifications, repertoire or role models before deciding if they were fit to appear. Once they had finished, one of the residents would go down to the bar to tell the audience that it was safe to come back in again. If they came back the following week I bet they'd have got better. The guitarist might even have learned another chord. If they kept coming and showed no sign of improving or, more importantly, no desire to improve, then yes, we would probably find ways of easing them out.
This would be a few minutes in three hours where all the other performers would vary between middling and brilliant. You seem to assume that allowing one bad act means that all the performers will be terrible.
As far as I'm concerned, a club stands and falls entirely by its residents
I think we have a group of residents to be proud of. I'm happy to stand up for Breton Cap's "artisitic integrity" against anyone and the rest of us aren't bad either.
Kevin Michell John Lyons and Len Graham
We book guests on personal experience. I'm sure we'd be happy to book Kevin Michell but he doesn't seem to be round this way a lot. I have to confess, the other two I've never come across.
So I am to give up all the bawdy and erotic songs, the transportation and poaching songs, those about soldiers, sailors, farmworkers, miners, mill workers, the highwaymen and hanging ballads, the songs about the press-gangs and recruiting parties, the love songs, the historical, supernatural, tragic and comic ballads that go to make up the Child canon, and all the other beautiful songs and ballads that have kept me enthralled and entertained over the last forty odd years, and which are inextricably tied up with our history and culture – and for what?
You will find all these being sung at the Lewes Arms by performers who care for that music. OK, you may have to put up with the occasional floor singer whose voice and memory may be a little shaky but even they will be doing it for the love of it.
Is the Lewes club for which The Snail presented that depressing Q&A, the same one that holds ballad weekends? If so, it doesn't make sense.
It makes sense to us Jim. This thread is called Collapse of the Folk Clubs. Lewes supports two folk clubs neither of which is showing any sign of collapsing.
We must be getting something right.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 May 07 - 12:51 PM

anyone who thinks that performing "Young Hunting" in a folk club is "preaching to the converted"

Nor, indeed, mentioning it on here, far less expecting Dirty Felines to get the point of expropriating one of the characters as a pseudonym. Worst one was someone who's a bit of a know-all declaring that it was the former ME who'd stabbed Redin/William/Richard or whatever he's calling himself in your version and arranged for his depositing down the well/in the Clyde, when it was the floozy-on-the-side wot dunnit.

[A propos of very little, I suppose you've all heard of the skull found today in that very same river? Now, had they used the candle trick it would have been solved sooner . . . ]

And, Brian, I wasn't condemning all the trivial, 'jolly' and angst-ridden ditties, just the crap that WLD thinks is the LCD for the unwashed masses. Conversely, I've already mentioned Hugh Lupton's rendition of Tam Lin to non-f*lkies (perhaps that's the point, they had no preconceptions and were completely unbiassed) that had the entire community centre rooted to the spot and hanging onto every word.

btw Who's Seth Lakeman?
(That was rhetorical. The debacle of the Folk Awards in which, not HIM but flamin' Smoothops tried to pass off his Albino Bunny as trad has passed into folklore of a not very nice kind).

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 30 May 07 - 12:19 PM

"The 'proletariat' is perfectly capable of living along with and inside a big ballad, provided it is performed excellently and you don't destroy your case before the first note by describing it with that terminally damaged term 'f*lk' music."

Speaking as someone who performs a number of substantial ballads including "Young Hunting" itself, I have to say that, although in principle songs like that can and should be able to appeal to anyone who enjoys a good story (I sang YH to a large and appreciative sixth-form assembly at a local state secondary school, for instance), it would be suicide to perform such a song in, say, a stand-up performance in a public bar. If WLD had a point at all (see above), it is that Mike Waterson - or for that matter, Ewan MacColl - singing 'Tam Lin' is not the thing you'd want to expose your workmates or regular drinking companions to, as their first introduction to traditional song. You have to learn to appreciate that kind of singing, and vast numbers of the populace (not just the 'proletariat', whatever that is these days) simply haven't had the ear conditioning.

Diane speaks contemptuously of "trivial, 'jolly' or angst-ridden ditties", but if you're going to get anywhere with an audience of any kind you need your fair share of those things as well as big ballads. As most singers from the tradition have been well aware.

Since we can't be at the National Festival every week (or, in fact, at all - for the moment), folk clubs actually represent a rather suitable venue in which to perform traditional ballads. A degree of intimacy, an expectation of paying attention, help greatly in the cause. Although anyone who thinks that performing "Young Hunting" in a folk club is "preaching to the converted" clearly doesn't do it very often.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 May 07 - 11:30 AM

Diane Easeby: you'll have to refresh some memories. Was Seth Lakeman the young man you were so keen on? I can't remember.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 30 May 07 - 11:26 AM

The distinction (to me anyway) is that one "style" introduces traditional material to modern musical forms. Whereas the other is maintaining the existing material in as near to the original form as can be found.

I see both as having a place and certainly the younger generation are continuing the tradition in a form and style of their own but it aint what I want to do. I do however enjoy the likes of Spiers and Boden but I cite their treatment of Fire Marengo as compared to that of The Young Tradition. Basically the same song but presented very differently for a different audience.

Then again Dave and Anni perform both traditional stuff and modern written songs in what I see as a traditional style

Call me an old fogie if you like but there a lot of us about.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 May 07 - 10:52 AM

I didn't say the proletariat, or anyone else, should be spoonfed with anything.

I was criticising the patronising and condescending attitude that they should be pandered to with dumbed down crap because it's all they can understand and which they have been conditioned into thinking they prefer. I went on to make the point (with illustrations) of how such 'lower classes' are more than capable of grasping the storyline of a big ballad which is, after all, a meaningful allegory of real life as opposed to a trivial, 'jolly' or angst-ridden ditty which is not.

You seem to be making a distinction as though written in stone between an artist who removes arcane language from lyrics and (sometimes) uses an ebow and MIDI programmer and another who performs nothing but unaccompanied ballads in 'traditional' style (whatever that is), and saying 'never the twain', as though it was somehow illegal to appreciate both. This is a totally nonsensical and artificial distinction, especially given that the artist we are talking about does both and indeed performs in venues of all sizes (including clubs), just like Mr Carthy, actually.

If you think this is contradictory, all I can say is that the old-style f*lk club circuit ethos is even more entrenched, out-of-date and reactionary that I ever realised.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 30 May 07 - 10:27 AM

Diane

I find myself confused !

Your intro to Mudcat was in support of a musician/singer who as I see it (I remember who it was) performs in a modern style with modern electrified instruments- fine if that's what cranks your handle.

You said in this thread that the Big Ballads were the music that should be presented to the 'proletariat' - again fine if it cranks your handle.

But I dont understand what it is you are really a fan of. I know you play a fiddle but the above two styles seem to me to be contradictory.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 07 - 10:19 AM

collapse of the folk clubs,could it be that all those organisers like Ted Poole[46 YEARS running afolk club].
Could it be that the people of today are not prepared to work for their communities,running a folk club [Ispeak from experience]requires alot of dedication and hard work,Iwould like to thank all those folk club organisers.
running afolk club/ folk festival is something to be proud .and is somethingthat has given lots of pleasure to alot of people.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 May 07 - 08:25 AM

Should have added that I first posted to Mudcat about four years ago under my erstwhile pseudonym to speak up for a new(ish) young performer and his first CD which was doing rather well, and geting a kicking from usual suspects for his pains.

I thought this might give me some sort of shit-proof umbrella-type protection from the baying pack from the antiquated 'f*lk' club brigade.

Hah! Didn't work, did it?

But that performer is now top of the game. Well, after Martin Carthy anyway.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:33 AM

I think changing to DE from CR is a good idea.

The word you need is "Yahoo" - only one initial letter away, and a fruitful source of confusion for the mentally challenged of today who will misread that too.

Do not prescribe to the performer. The will to improve must come from inside. Discourage the performers and you damage your rootstock.

I have found that in a small pub setting, a good row about what is "folk" can engage the interest of the listeners, and result in more appreciation of what is being done. It is not simply entertainment.

WLD, your friends should try playing a few Martin Carthy guitar parts before they condemn his abilities. Sorry to hear of your vicissitudes, and all that, but you should not necessarily assume that the judgments of the milieu in which you have found yourself are better than those of the milieu from which you came, and I think you often do.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:14 AM

"Doesn't say much for your own artistic integrity either."

Scuse me but did you not say you think that the Royal Oak is a place that is getting it right.

My point, on that issue, was that some of us are accepted as doing what that venue (club if you will or won't)want to hear and that we do a very similar job at the Lewes Arms.

What I do at Festivals I see as "missionary work" in that I try to present my stuff as well as I can so that new comers or less confident people can feel encouraged to find out more about the music and songs.

So in short I participate in a mainly traditional song/music scene to the extent that I and the clubs I attend are accepted by other participants in that scene as full participants.

The road we have decided to follow may not be the same as yours but we don't think we are wrong in our choice.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:43 AM

Diane (moved on from CR?)

Yes, because I am unutterably bored with having to explain to dumbed-down (insert word of choice preferably beginning with 'w') who don't know (or pretend not to know) Young Hunting.

As I said somewhere a kazillion posts back, it is surely a tad condescending to assume your audience is incapable of assimilating anything other than PPM (or Engelbert Humperdinck) so dishing out MOR 'good-enough-for-f*lk' crap will do . Doesn't say much for your own artistic integrity either. The 'proletariat' is perfectly capable of living along with and inside a big ballad, provided it is performed excellently and you don't destroy your case before the first note by describing it with that terminally damaged term 'f*lk' music. Unless, of course, you're doing it in a past-sell-by 'f*lk' club, where you're preaching to the converted anyway in the same anachronistic way as spouting hell-fire in the orangemost depths of the Six Counties.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:18 AM

"(though I have been to the Royal Oak in Lewes several times and regard it as one of the best venues in the land)".

Nice of you to say so Diane (moved on from CR?)but we at the Lewes Arms believe we get it right too (Have you come across our flyers for our series of workshops?)

Someone earlier talked about insulting audiences. From the Lewes Arms standpoint the floor singers ARE part of the audience and if they are not given the opportunity to do thier piece every now and again would that not be as much of an insult.

And BTW The Snail(and the band) and I get asked to do floor spots (1 or 2 songs/tunes)at the Royal Oak so, just maybe, we are good enough at what we do for the "club" scene as it stands today.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:45 AM

How the hell do I know, who they hold up as examples of excellence. Engelbert Humperdink for all I know.

As I have said with my middle class background I am and always have been a card carrying folkie - fully appreciative of all the artists you like.

However - living the life I have . For many years, living in old Nottinghamshire ex-mining village, eeking out a living for many years by working as a part time musician in the pubs, working mens clubs and miners welfares. Inevitably I have noticed that there is something of a discrepancy between the musical tastes of the folk world, and most other places.

I know you all feel defensive about my observation. But it remains my overwhelming and honest impression.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:26 AM

"I think the point I am trying to make is that Carhty and the Watersons were meaning to be confrontational to a world that saw Peter Paul and Mary as the voice of folk music in the 1960's."

Leaving aside the point about whether they were trying to be confrontational or just trying to find an authentic, less Americanized way of performing old English songs, are you suggesting that Peter, Paul and Mary were or should have been suitable role models for folksingers (however defined) from the 1960s to this day? My Mum bought Peter, Paul and Mary's version of "Blowing in the Wind". Was this proof of their mass appeal, or perhaps an indication that a watered-down, anodyne version of "folk" could appeal to the kind of person who wouldn't have bought a Dylan record in a million years?

And would your friends who thought Mike Waterson 'shit' have enjoyed to any greater degree the 'Shakespearean' rendition of "Tam Lin" for which you praised MacColl?

As Les in Chorlton points out, the tradition covers a huge breadth of ground, from epic ballads to knockabout humour. Dropping the uninitiated in at the deep end isn't always the best way to make converts.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:20 AM

I think the point I am trying to make is that Carthy and the Watersons were meaning to be confrontational to a world that saw Peter Paul and Mary as the voice of folk music in the 1960's.

Then I have to say you have a strange way of making it.

However I have heard an old acquaintance has not got long to live. Puts things into perspective.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:50 AM

Their is life in the old dogs yet

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:37 AM

Its not bile. I really think Irvine's set would have benefited from a guitar. Three different sized bouzoukis with a phase pedal were no substitute, and I am quite conversant with and appreciative of, his work. He can play the guitar, why not?

I think the point I am trying to make is that Carhty and the Watersons were meaning to be confrontational to a world that saw Peter Paul and Mary as the voice of folk music in the 1960's.


However somehow folk music lost the sensibility of the common folk, and never found it again.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:35 AM

They have been quite interested in the idea of playing folk music, but when they have found out that martin carthy and mike waterson are the hallmark of excellence in this field - their reaction has always been the same.They have all said, this is shit,

So who would they hold up as excellence? In fact who would you hold up as excellent? You really have me intrigued.

Since Martin Carthy has made a living doing nothing other than be a musician/singer for the past forty odd years; that he has the respect of (I would think) of virtually all his fellow performers; the thousands of people who buy his records; attend folk clubs and festivals all over the world where he is still an attraction as part of Waterson:Carthy, did it not occur to you that your mates were rushing to judgement. What genre of music have they moved onto? Who are their heroes now?

As for Mike singing to mass acclaim in a pub - I was there along with about 100 hundred other people. Were you?

As I wrote this it, the obvious suddenly occurred to me - are you Kim Howells? I think we should be told.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:12 AM

Take it all back Gulliver. I detect no self pity or bile. Just strongly held views and a bit of context.

Traditional song and people who sing cover a massive range. I bet most people would be knocked out by Bob Davenport, The Boat band, Duncan McFarlane Band and the Coppers in an appropriate context.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Gulliver
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:57 PM

WLD, it seems you are more interested in feeling sorry for yourself than anything else.

You wrote earlier: Don't be sad about starting the thread, Les. Im sure it was well meant and if some people used it to spout bile - that's their problem.

Now you're using it to spout bile. Andy Irvine has worked his butt off for traditional and non-traditional music and over the past 40 years has provided great entertainment. All I can say is shame on you!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 May 07 - 07:54 PM

You were lucky. I caught the whoe bloody act. Three different sized bouzoukis.

A guitar would have been a bit of light relief.

Its this basic propostion that the traddies are cleverer than the rest of us, and is such obvious bloody nonsense.

Richard Bridge is always accusing me of being an inverted snob. Let me 'fess up. I am an ex-public school/grammar school boy.

However I married a working class girl and when she became disabled I descended to the lower depths of our society. I became one of those that peter Lilley made up Gilbert and Sullivan songs about - I became the untermenschen living in te cheapest houses in England on government handouts.

To be honest, I wondered at one point in this thread if I was on the alternative universes thread.

there was that anecodote about Mike waterson singing the ballad of Tam Lin to mass aclaim in an ordinary pub.

I gotta be honest I have been forced to use musicians who were the best where I lived. They have been quite interested in the idea of playing folk music, but when they have found out that martin carthy and mike waterson are the hallmark of excellence in this field - their reaction has always been the same.

THey have all said, this is shit,

I know this doesn't worry any of the traddies. But my point is, I feel it should do.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Phil Williams
Date: 29 May 07 - 12:52 PM

1.Running a club is a huge commitment and I applaud all those who do.
2.Landlords have also turned function rooms into restaurants too often.
3.The '2 in a bar' rule didn't help

but...

4. I once drove 25 miles to a club to see a Andy Irvine, but his set was cut short due to the number of floor singers. Some perfectly good, some, er, cringeworthy. One bloke dressed in a cowboy hat bragged about how he knew & played with some American guitar hero, sang 3-chord songs for 20min with no attempt at an arrangement, telling us how bloody wonderful he was, and left without seeing Andy. I never went there again for that reason, despite a great guest list.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 May 07 - 10:14 AM

And Billy Connolly - which is where I heard it first. Though the facts do exist too.......

Was it Redd who started his act - "Good evening ladies and gentlemen and those of you that have had the operation?"

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 29 May 07 - 07:30 AM

And just to prove there is not so much money in folk as people think I have seen people being forced to share a cigarette.

I remember Redd Sullivan telling that story at the Troubador about the Duke Ellington Band, back in the 60's

Glad the old jokes are not collapsing at least!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:52 AM

...... took me back to the days when superstar *A.C* would stagger on stage, try (unsuccessfully) to tune his guitar, mumble something about "near enough for folk" and throw up over the front row – (good days my arse)..........

I can think of two A.C.'s who would fit that description!!

And I have seen other performers do similar tricks.

Like Jim I prefer not to name names but yes, some of the performers I booked could put it away too - including "traditional" singers two or three of whom seemed to have an infinite capacity for alcohol. I often wondered what they would be like when stone cold sober!!

And just to prove there is not so much money in folk as people think I have seen people being forced to share a cigarette.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 May 07 - 04:58 AM

"Maybe it's time for a 'slow music' campaign"

Hope so, Cap'n - it's the only kind my aged, arthritic digits can manage nowadays! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 29 May 07 - 04:49 AM

Just as a generation has been taught to ignore their cultural inheritance, so they can relearn how to value it and add to it.
I do wish I could share your optimism, but I have my doubts. From my own experience, in those cultures where there has been a rekindling of interest in the indiginous music and dance, the new too often seems to be a sanitised, drip-dry, wash'n'wear version of the authentic, much to the chagrin of the few genuine practitioners.
In that sense, the genuine will always be in a minority. The schoolkids may hoof it up with branles, twmpathau or whatever and not take the piss, but the majority of them will then go home and listen to rap/rock/garage or whatever is the current craze thrust at them by that focussed, globalised and pernicious marketing campaign. In the face of that, tradititional music and dance will remain very much a minority concern.
Nevertheless, I do take heart from the 'slow food' movement, which originated in Italy and has now spread across the globe - albeit in a rather middle-class, politeand, er, slow fashion.
Maybe it's time for a 'slow music' campaign.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 29 May 07 - 04:45 AM

"I can recall Robin Hall and Jimmie McGregor playing folk music every night of the week in Tonight on prime time TV: later Jake Thackeray. The Spinners had their own series.... Perhaps more 60s than 70s, true."

Yes, all pretty much before my time. However, I was answering speicifically your use of the phrase "laughing stock". This was certainly the case during the 1908s and 90s - I well remember Gregson and Collister (leading purveyors at the time of very contemporary acoustic music) being introduced on The Late Show with the words: "Now we're going to hear some folk music, so get out those Arran jumpers...." I suspect that that kind of stereotype was nurtured by precisely the kind of 60s performers you mention, whatever their musical merits at the time.

In recent years, by contrast, I have heard traditional music treated with respect in many corners of the mainstream media. I could have mentioned Folk Britannia, Norma W. or Seth Lakeman on the Mercury Awards, sympathetic coverage in The Culture Show and national newspapers, various specialist programmes on Radio 4, Late Junction, etc. etc. And Jools Holland, like him or not, is pretty much the only TV outlet these days for non-mainstream pop music, so for our people to be on there alongside the Kaiser Chiefs is a not insignificant achievement.

"these guys aren't buying it. As far as they're concerned they've done nothing wrong"

Weelittledrummer, I thought I'd actually agreed with you a little way up this thread, but if you keep on coming out with this absurd stuff about the "traddies" having spoilt the party then people are going keep coming back at you.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 May 07 - 03:59 AM

they have disenfranchised an entire nation that was once enthralled by the idea of folksong

Leaving aside the patent nonsense that it was everyone in the 'entire nation' that was thus 'enthralled', it remains to question who THEY are. An entire generation has been taught to ridicule and disown its cultural inheritance (viz the current proliferation of anti-Morris crap in the UK broadcast media). To be more specific, it is a generation of the ENGLISH, since the 'Celtic' thing is a tourist trade marketing device, wrapped in tartan tiger skins.

So, it's the education system and wider than that, the population at large has been the target of the most focussed, globalised and pernicious marketing campaign in the history of humankind. But just as the growing food lobby is beginning to return food production values to a more human scale with sustainability the goal, so an eloquent counterblast to mainstream forces is the making and composing of our own music.

It's a matter of craftspersons laying hands on local materials and unleashing magical forces which will begin to see off McJunkfoodrubbish and McMORjunkmainstreampop. Just as a generation has been taught to ignore their cultural inheritance, so they can relearn how to value it and add to it.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 07 - 03:58 AM

Couple of points I'd like to clear up.
I apologise to 'Snail' if I have been heavy handed in my criticism of his Q&A; I certainly did not mean to give personal offence. If what he described is club policy, no matter what I feel about it, there was no reason for my shooting the messenger; (bad week – not getting any better – but no excuse for bad manners!) For me, the description touched a raw nerve and took me back to the days when superstar *A.C* would stagger on stage, try (unsuccessfully) to tune his guitar, mumble something about "near enough for folk" and throw up over the front row – (good days my arse).
I find it more than a little ingenuous for WLD (there go my fingers again – WD40 this time) and others to describe a suggestion that, at the very least singers should be expected to sing in tune and remember the words, as being exacting, elitist or driving people away. Any creative endeavour (that's what singing is) should have standards if it is going to have any relevance to others. This is especially true when he songs being sung are not our own, but ones which have been handed down to us. Bad singing will put very few bums on seats (as is shown by discussions such as this), and those it does manage to attract won't not stay there for long. I wonder if those who find my suggestion so offensive have any minimum requirements of their own as to what should and should not be acceptable at folk clubs.
Folk singing as a majority/minority interest (WLD again).
I was referring to the period of the present revival, when I suggested that folk-singing was never a majority activity. However, as far as the period when the tradition was active and healthy, unless WLD (or anybody) has information as to how popular an activity it was, we know very little about the singers and their singing. There are certainly very few contemporary accounts of traditional singing in the UK. If it was as widespread as suggested, I would have thought that Johnson and Boswell, Defoe, Cobbett, Bulfin and other commentators on social life, might have mentioned it, if only in passing.
Here in rural West Clare, which is reckoned to be one of the hot-spots for traditional song in Ireland, singing took a poor second place to dancing and music and, apart from the 'rambling houses' (homes were singing was popular with the residents), usually it took place at kitchen dances during the intervals while the dancers got their breaths back and the musicians topped up their drinks. Truth to tell, we simply don't know how popular folk singing was (or very little else about it for that matter).   
Somebody asked was I a singer.
Not any more. I was a middling ability singer for 20 years, residented at around 10 clubs during that time and had a working repertoire of 300 + songs. I enjoyed singing when I sang well and didn't when I didn't. I sang at my best when I worked at it and when I could no longer put in the time to work because of other interests (collecting and research) I gave up on the basis that if I wasn't enjoying my songs, why should anybody else.
Nowadays I only sing at sessions when I am 'Mrs Doyled' ("you will, you will, you will") and then choosing only from the half dozen songs I know backwards.
Harry Boardman.
My early experience of Harry was the same as Folkie Dave's, at the Pack Horse on Bridge Street, M/c with Terry Whelan, Tom Gilfellon, the wonderful Terry Griffiths et al. I hitched 30 miles up the East Lancs Road every Friday night to be there. Harry could make your hair curl with his 'Flying Cloud' and 'Grand Conversation' and your toes curl with some of that dire 'Deep Lancashire' stuff. I residented at his club at The Blue Anchor, which tended to be curate's eggish but usually enjoyable.
At the risk of prolonging this thread beyond its sell-by date, I'm curious as to what (if anything) people expect from a folk club – as a minimum and as an ideal.   
Jim Carroll
PS I find some of the contributions to this and similar threads interesting and not a little irritating at times. On the one hand you have the 'head-in-the-sand' approach (akin to the Emperor Nero's "Fire – what fire"?) On the other there is the 'Wanna sing- wanna dance' school who think that by discussing and even (god forbid) arguing the toss on occasion, you will frighten the horses and scare off potential performers and listeners. It's been my experience that discussing problems helps to solve them and more damage is done by pretending that everything is fine when it obviously isn't. Anybody who takes the trouble to put finger to keyboard in these harangues, does so because they care about the music and wants to see it survive.   Those who don't want to be involved – please feel free not to be.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,MusicMan
Date: 29 May 07 - 03:48 AM

There was a strong folk music era here in Minnesota in the late 60s, which has since died out. However one Minnesotan managed to capitalize on folk music. He is Bob Dylan.

Would like to see a light music club here.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 May 07 - 03:28 AM

Amen Al.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:46 PM

I think TV and video are a very good media for folksongs. Some artists use the intimacy that the camera provides very well - and they are spared the need to 'project', which doesn't suit everybody.

Robin Hall and Jimmy MacGregor did a great deal of traditional material in their Tonight slot - and they did it very creditably as a cursory listen to their albums will tell you. Also Robin was a prominent member of the Committe of 100 - and their work was politically aware.

Santa - these guys aren't buying it. As far as they're concerned they've done nothing wrong.

As far as I can see, they have disenfranchised an entire nation that was once enthralled by the idea of folksong. However I'm fed up with putting this point of view, and gathering insults and abuse for simply stating the ideas that motivate me and my understanding of folksong.

They're entitled to their views, we're entitled to ours. Its a sad state of affairs, but there it is.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:20 PM

I doubt if TV is a suitable media for traditional music any more than it is a suitable outlet for classical music or jazz, neither of which get much exposure on TV. Hardly difficult to discern - it is a listening business rather than a visual one.

BBC Radio has loads of traditional music, little on national radio apart from Mike Harding but loads for example on BBC Scotland and N. Ireland.

As I remember it, Robin Hall and Jimmy MacGregor wrote a new song each night to comment on the news that day. Name one.

But I am not sure what this has to do with the collapse of folk clubs. Is the suggestion that once the BBC stopped showing folk music on TV then the folk clubs collapsed?

I doubt there is a correlation any more than there was a correlation between what the BBC/ITV showed and the rise of folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Santa.
Date: 28 May 07 - 06:16 PM

I can recall Robin Hall and Jimmie McGregor playing folk music every night of the week in Tonight on prime time TV: later Jake Thackeray. The Spinners had their own series. The Corries ditto. The pop music shows had folk acts as a normal event. The Blackpool Taverners were on the Royal Command performance. Bob Dylan's tour was a major media event, Pete Seeger's less so but still widely touted. Julie Felix was a major star. And this was with just two TV channels. Perhaps more 60s than 70s, true. But seen as late as the 1980s Granada ITV showed the Houghton Weavers on a regular spot.

And you compare that with singleton appearances of Eliza or Julie Fowlis on Jools Holland in a low-exposure slot on a minority channel. Comparable in terms of public exposure? Hardly. The hypothetical main-in-the-street would know Julie Felix: does his equivalent nowadays know Eliza? (Preferences do not enter into this.)

No, I probably do not get to that many folk festivals, my daughter gets to more, but I did say that there were signs of a rise of interest. As to the quality of the acts in earlier times, perhaps you could get together with Folkiedave and reach some kind of consensus. I'm happy with the quality of those I get to see - and indeed of those I may choose to miss.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Tootler
Date: 28 May 07 - 05:37 PM

Funny, I remember it being ridiculed in the 70s. Bob Copper remembered it being ridiculed in the 30s.

And I had to have words with my (33 year old) daughter yesterday because she was making snide remarks about Whitby Shanty Weekend. She got somewhat defensive when I turned her remarks back on her concerning her going to Glastonbury.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 28 May 07 - 05:18 PM

"Look at it nowadays. It is not popular, it is not commonly available via the prominent media, it is held up as a laughing stock. Not by some unimportant minority, but in the mainstream."

A picture that's ten years out of date, Santa. Your point about the social aspect of folk clubs was a good one, but you are way off the mark with this. Julie Fowlis, Eliza Carthy on Jools Holland? Kathryn Tickell / Eliza & Norma on Woman's Hour? Etc etc.

"Yes, festivals are more popular than before, though it does seem to be much the same group of people travelling from one to another."

Again, this was the case ten or fifteen years ago. Not so now. Do you get to many?

"I would not claim that the paid guests at my current local club are any better or any worse than they were way back then."

Most likely better, unless your local club is out of touch with who's worth booking.

"In the 60s and early 70s, folk (in the wider sense) music was generally popular."

Funny, I remember it being ridiculed in the 70s. Bob Copper remembered it being ridiculed in the 30s.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 28 May 07 - 03:47 PM

Re "not as popular as before"

Ask your children about the general attitude in the outside world to folk music. Read the papers. Watch TV. (I didn't think I'd ever be recommending someone did that!) In the 60s and early 70s, folk (in the wider sense) music was generally popular. If the tradition -biased suggest that this was largely based on the popularity of protest folk, hippiedom, and folk rock, rather than Real Folk Music: well maybe they are right. However, and for whatever reason, it was widely popular, well regarded, and folk music was regularly broadcast in TV.

Look at it nowadays. It is not popular, it is not commonly available via the prominent media, it is held up as a laughing stock. Not by some unimportant minority, but in the mainstream.

Yes, festivals are more popular than before, though it does seem to be much the same group of people travelling from one to another. Yes there are the likes of Folkworks. Yes, there are promising signs that some kind of bottom in popular esteem has been passed and things are getting better. Nonetheless I stand by my comment.

I would not claim that the paid guests at my current local club are any better or any worse than they were way back then. Merely that I (and others) choose to use a developed sense of what will be enjoyable to choose which evenings to attend. At Bristol in the late 60s I would turn up every week, as you clearly did at your club. And if that was a blues singer (place your own pet bete noire), well, chalk it down to experience. But learn not to waste your time in the future, or just live with wider tastes than I have developed.

In one sense I am lucky: this thread concerns the collapse of the folk club, whereas I can attend one almost every night of the week, sometimes with a choice. Blackpool, St Annes, Fleetwood, Poulton, Preston, Garstang and Southport if I'm prepared to drive a bit. (And with Tich Frier this Friday. maybe I will!)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: the fence
Date: 28 May 07 - 03:10 PM

Thanks for that GS, much appreciated.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: melodeonboy
Date: 28 May 07 - 01:28 PM

"Unless I've missed a posting in what I think a fairly turgid mass above, no-one seems to have commented on the social side of a folk club." said Santa.

Read my last thread, Santa. (And don't forget me at Christmas; I've been a good boy!)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 May 07 - 11:40 AM

not as popular as they were in the good old days because folk music isn't as popular as it was in the good old days.

I have to ask you where the evidence for this is.

Sure there are less folk clubs - but there were few festivals. Now there are loads of festivals with much bigger attendances than virtually any folk club had. In these "good old days" there were very few sessions outside the Irish community. Now we have a lot of festivals and a lot of participatory sessions.

There were virtually no summer schools such as Folkworks. There were few musicians other than guitarists - most people were singers. Melodeons and fiddles were rare. No-one would have played an oboe in a session as I saw last week.

Fewer folk clubs that is true but much more folk music now than there ever was.

As for social aspects I couldn't agree more and I am certainly one who met members of the opposite sex. And yes it was the music but there was the social life too. We used to have weekends away when we met the members of another folk club, dwile-flonked, danced and - played and sang, but we were a bit unusual I suspect. All in the name of social life. And if there was someone you fancied there was a good chance you could catch them again next week for people went each week.

But my point is that we went to the club every week knowing that almost certainly it would be good because we had great residents and paid guests and people who were non-residents would only dare appear when they were good. We had obvious standards. Yes of course the odd duff one got through but they were rare. So were singer/songwriters.

Often unpaid guests were often aspiring artists doing the rounds - "let me do three songs and book me if you think I am good". That's what people did in those days, so there was plenty of talent available.

I have no idea what the social life is like nowadays and my wife would kill me if she ever found me doing research into the subject.