Collapse of the Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 13 May 07 - 10:29 AM

I feel a song coming on!!1

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 May 07 - 08:55 AM

George, could be a chorus?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 13 May 07 - 08:13 AM

From me Les in Chorlton....

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: breezy
Date: 13 May 07 - 06:14 AM

Phew, thats a relief

So you're back with 'the news.'

We enjoyed their visit to us as well, thoroughly decnt chaps i say

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 13 May 07 - 05:58 AM

Exactly Breezy. We had His Worship & The Pig last night and they were really good and funny (very talented guys). I broke even and we all had a really nice evening.

Agree entirely Jargarmani.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: breezy
Date: 13 May 07 - 04:52 AM

and yes, the Art centres pay top fees then the artisites think they can demand it from clubs and subsequently price themselves out of the folk club scene.

The top acts still draw at clubs but when one of them said ,when negotiating the fee that 'Some clubs save up to book me' I was disallusioned by the attitude and thought it most hypocritical of the artiste concerned as it flew in the face of his 'folk persona', he was no more than another capitalist.

I said that 'every night had to pay for itself' as i was booking , or 'giving work ' to an artiste every week and i wanted the audience to hear the best we could engage as well as value for money.


so some 'blame' must go to art centres who over pay and look down their noses at local folk clubs in most cases.


Now next Sunday 20thMay is the 'Windward experience' at the rose and crown St Albans, though their is someon there tonight with a new local duo who can sing

www.windwardfc.org.uk

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 May 07 - 04:21 AM

Great quote - Where is it from George?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 13 May 07 - 04:00 AM

When the men on the ship used to sing, when the men in the barns used to sing....and of course drink like little fishes!!! it was everyone had a go and were pestered until they did sing...good or bad voice...
Everyone tolerated everyones performances, good or bad in those days....look how it has progressed since then!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 May 07 - 02:51 AM

Sorry I did that by mistake, but I think you have summed things up rather well jargamani

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 May 07 - 02:50 AM

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: jargarmani
Date: 12 May 07 - 07:32 PM

We may not like admitting it, but society's changed a lot since us lot started attending folk clubs-I'm assuming that most posters are old gits, like myself. Kids don't want to sit in smoky rooms above pubs, as we did.Sad, but true. Let's not get despondent though, the clubs may be dying, but the music certainly isn't.Audiences at events in venues such as arts centres and theatres are on the increase,and festivals almost invariably sell out. Execrable floor singers haven't helped though. By and large,club organisers are far too tolerant. Some of the crap served up may be acceptable to diehard folkies, but if we're trying to attract a wider audience- no chance.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 May 07 - 06:44 PM

Eurovision 2008!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one)
Date: 12 May 07 - 02:35 PM

it appears my lap-top has developed a stutter*LOL* anyway....
Shall My Violet Be Unshrunken
(to the tune of Shall The Circle Be Unbroken)
boud to be a HUGE hit in the clubs as a sing-a-long.....

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 May 07 - 02:34 PM

That's just how I feel Mr Gubbins!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one)
Date: 12 May 07 - 01:32 PM

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one)
Date: 12 May 07 - 01:29 PM

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one)
Date: 12 May 07 - 01:27 PM

The Combined 'Arvester Dating Service For Aging Folkies..*LOL*

(now, now, I'm only kidding:p)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 May 07 - 11:35 AM

So, it is turning into a dating website!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 May 07 - 10:11 AM

Funny that.
My Myspace page says I'm 100 years old since no-one queried the date of birth I entered. This, and my supposed gender preference, will doubtless spare me from unwanted, pestering harassment from the Guest jOhn (of 'Ull, I am assuming).
That's all right then, job done
Not that he'd ever see me in the sort of neolithic pick-up joints in which some so-called men among these cyberpages lurk.
Perish the thought.
Thanks anyway, RB but my violet is, as yet, not shrunken.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge in Nottingham
Date: 12 May 07 - 08:40 AM

John, stop it! I can shout about trouble as well as any, but age and gender preference are not matters for abuse. Nor relevant.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 12 May 07 - 07:26 AM

Countess richard-you are rubbish and a big trubble maker, why not shut up?
i reckon your probly a wrinkly old woman about 100 years old, or a lesbiun, i won;t look at your picture, as i'm going to get me dinner in a minit.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: stallion
Date: 10 May 07 - 08:13 AM

I have an observation which may or may not be relevant or fair. When we were over in the US a couple of years ago, I got the impression of an imaginary line of competance above great, below it, nothing. We witnessed a very good Jazz trio in a Bistro and their "bucket" (the whole pay was by donation from the diners") was emptied frequently, my guess is they made a tidy sum for their evenings work, the following week they had a jazz pianist on, he wasn't in the same league, got absolutely nothing in his "bucket". There doesn't seem to be the same desire for self entertainment or for people trying the audience want the very very best or nothing. So, is that what is going on here? No, clubs/ sessions still have their characters and whole bunches of regulars of whatever competence and long shall it be that way, it is good to have guests as treats but the sustenance, the bread and butter, are the regular core who meet up to enjoy making music together, not sitting in silence listening to strangers.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 07 - 07:52 AM

Nope, not according to that deranged aristocrat's postings.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 May 07 - 06:36 AM

Guest, are you perhaps comfusing the Mudcat with a dating website?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 07 - 05:58 AM

Any pissed-up backwoodsmen there?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mad Jock
Date: 10 May 07 - 05:25 AM

Collapse of Folk Clubs???

Strange we have just start a new one in Blairgowrie ,Perthshire due to popular demand.
We started with a few weeks of sessions on Thursday nights and last week Thursday May 3rd Polling Day we had our first concert. We had over 60 in the audience and as a result are holding concerts evey month on the first Thursday of the month and continuing with thw session for the rest of the time.

So any folkies out there looking for somewhere to play Perthshire is the place to be.

Next concert Thursday 7th June. The Royal Hotel, Blairgowrie.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 May 07 - 04:42 AM

in the third century BC the Celts occupied lands from the Black Sea to the Atlantic. A unified state however was contrary to their nature for they were united only by language, religion and culture. This explains their defeat by their more organised enemies, The Romans and the Germanic tribes.

From "The Celts" - Gerhard Herm BCA 1976

Jack, please do not use words around like "racist" so easily.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: breezy
Date: 09 May 07 - 03:59 PM

Well hello Villan, welcome back.

Does that make me a cunning old celt.

Never believe the fuel guage and range reading on a mercedes when on a motorway, last night was a lesson too late for the learning

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 09 May 07 - 02:59 PM

The name Folk might be collapsing but not the clubs.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:47 AM

Jack, Jack why spoil a subtly understated case with concepts that are vague and difficult to grasp?

So far this thread has been free of confusion and unkindness, thanks for your help
Best wishes

Les

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:34 AM

Ther never was a united Celtic musical culture and all the music now played by "Celtic" peoples owes far more to interactions with their non-Celtic neighbours than with each other.

Only racists and marketroids pretend differently.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:09 AM

They may not have been united but they were cunning...

:D

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:07 AM

The Celts never were united, that's why they fell to the Romans so easily!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 May 07 - 04:35 AM

Whilst there is a weighting towards Celtic Music, there are lots of people without such a connection. It is a name to avoid "folk" which rightly or wrongly has connotations, most of which are wrong I admit.

Loads of festivals and organisations avoid the word folk. Sidmouth used to be Sidmouth International Festival. Shepley the weekend after next is Shepley Spring Festival.

Wasn't there a festival in Rochester recently? Rochester Folk Festival?

And the Celtic nations of course include Galicia, Wales etc...........

What united Celtic peoples originally was their language religion and culture. I suspect what is left is simply culture.

I doubt such a test could be applied to the Germanic tribes.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 May 07 - 03:04 AM

Well, Dave, it would not imply the exclusion of non-celtic music. Certainly the overemphasis on "Celtic" as it stands is very likely to keep me away, which may of course be a good thing. Equally the present apparent elision between Scottish and Irish and other celtic art forms is IMHO as misguided as lumping English and German art forms together as "Aryan Arrangements" would be.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 May 07 - 05:13 PM

So "Glasgow Folk Festival" resounds as easily and would have as much success as - say "Celtic Connections"?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 07 - 05:02 PM

As the "new queer" movement seeks to recover its language so must we recover "folk".

"Say it loud - I [folk] and I'm proud. No matter how hard you try you can't touch me now".

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 07 - 10:18 AM

I could be wrong but I think Diane explained it once as an attempt to rid a discussion of the negative aspects of folk - The venues and artists that she supports are outside the traditional image of the folk club and folk artist. As the word folk has become a 'dirty word' in some cirlces I think she has used the medium of mimicry (as in using f**k instead of fuck) to replace the word folk with f*lk.

I know you said you would not post aymore countess but is that the greneral gist or is my memory, once again, flawed?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Woman and Folk Club Organiser
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:34 AM

I've just read the BBC News pages so I now understand the Patrick Moore bit. Who controls the remote?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:04 AM

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, without adding anything to subject in the title (sorry Les), can I ask:

Countess Richard, what is so awful about the word folk that it has to be written as f*lk ?

DC

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 07 - 07:51 AM

Damn! Must just be the BBC then;-)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 07 - 07:38 AM

I'm not sure the premise is true.

Dartford - mixed gender organisers
Good Intent - Big Growly Simon (not female)
Maidstone - mixed gender organisers, I think male majority
Riverside - ditto (I think)
Greyhound - Big Growly Simon.
Moore or Less - Derek Moore
Daz and Man's club also at the Three Mariners - mixed gender organisers (balanced, I think)

That's about as far as I travel.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 07 - 07:19 AM

With apologies to Sir Patrick Moore.

The problem with folk clubs is that too many of them are run by women.

Light blue touchpaper and hide behind large granite structure.

:D

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 07 - 07:18 AM

Thank you stallion. I was more thinking at this repetition of the problems with clubs than sessions, although I agree my posting had not originally been structured with that in mind. Although session manners can put people of folking, here I was more thinking of my daughter's views that she does get put off by excessive compliment (not all compliment, just excessive ones) - and also wants unamplified traditional song (ideally with harmony) in "clubs", not open mic snigger snogwriters.

So maybe the way to get the 20-somethings in is not to go too far down the Seth Lakeman route. Capable though he is I feel he has moved too far from folk to be called folk, and a folk club needs to do what it says on the tin.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: stallion
Date: 08 May 07 - 04:51 AM

listen RB musos have to be trained, like puppies, generally ours are now fully "mixed session" trained, I am not saying it is easy, initially I had to threaten a "back to back tune" fiddler with his bow up his **se, fortunately the instrument tends to be early evening whilst all are relatively sober and the singing towards the end of the evening when most are incapable of anything but singing! or maybe just tuned out, any way it seems to work ok, does this help?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 07 - 02:21 AM

Bad form to quote oneself, but recently posted to the ROchester Sweeps thread as follows

"It was however regrettable to note that the humpties and diddlers who were unable to have their session in the Vic&Bull were less than gracious in response to their welcome from JB at his songsession, and set up in their own ghetto in the pub garden.

John runs a good mixed session, where all get their turn, whether they be singers or others, and the defection of this crew indicates that they were not content but demanded the right to take over the song session to which they had come.

The unjustified tirade that John suffered (until others stepped in) on Sunday evening was not only itself unmannerly, but also betrayed (by its "its true what they say" invective) that ingrates had been systematically running John down as they sat by the garden fireside, objected to having to take turns, wanted it all their own way, and had (even more disappointingly) not been shushed by any wiser heads in their group.

These latter things (not just the tirade itself) profoundly annoyed my daughter and will tend to militate against her further enjoyment of "folk sessions": a shame since she herself is such a spectacular performer and one of the two or three in total of performers present under 25. Such poor social behaviour is a factor tending to dissuade her from re-attending folk events.

Other such factors, perhaps relevant to other threads here, include navel-gazing snigger snogwriters, amplification (ie "open mic"), the absence of folk song, and lecherous old men who although they are unable to intimidate her may intimidate others. There was a bad example on one night at Sweeps (not, I think, a Cat member), who was fawning over a particularly contemporary singer, and making a fool of himself persisting in trying to kiss reluctant young(ish) women. Oddly, I remember her mother being critical of one or two very respected figures of the 60s and 70s folkocracy who allegedly were more (and equally unsuccessfully) interested in her nether regions than in her voice or guitar work. These were not limited to primary supporters of fatlib.

Thanks to John Barden for running some very good times."


BTW I have just read two posts by the C**ntess in which she typed "me" when it should have been "I".

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 07 May 07 - 11:06 PM

Bodrhans are great if you have no wife to beat.
(or are scared of doing so)
Just thought of something else to beat and think it was reading some of the onanistic drivell on here that put me in mind of it.
LOL
AT least the thread served one usefull purpose then.
have a happy rest of your life all.
Oh and lovely first set George.
Cheers

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 07 May 07 - 07:35 PM

It's fair to say that the seperation of folk music from folk clubs is a good one. Folk clubs were in direct line from the singing rooms of the 1850's, through Music Halls to the 1960's. They are in a line of tradition in terms of entertainment that goes back nearly 200 years. This tradition of "come all ye" entertainment will survive as it is part of the human spirit, as will the academic world of folk song and its history.
Personally, I'm much more interested in the working class thread going back to the singing rooms. I have a diary of one of the performers of those days and his life was not dissimilar to the life of a folk club pro.
Having lived that life I value what it has given to our culture in terms of songs and humour.
Yes, it's dying now, but it will be reborn in a new way because people need what it offers, music, laughter, community and continuity.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: breezy
Date: 07 May 07 - 04:44 PM

the appendix is a vertigial organ, which is not the same as extinct, which I hope this thread will soon become.

Please ask my wife to stop fondling me tits as I'm trying to write something worthwhile.

talking of tits, come to Windward on Sunday 20th May at the Rose n Crown St Albans and you could see some.

dear countess, thanks for lauding the praises of me club and placing it in your top ten of those you've visited, and Ryburn is certainly a standard to aim at, Ben Campbell played it very recently, but I booked him 5 years ago.

Hello George

They got no folkies at Madam Tussauds, not even Bob Dylan

Martin Carthy chucked coins in me box on Saturday !

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: stallion
Date: 07 May 07 - 04:01 PM

I happened to drop into the Whitby Moor & Coast do this weekend (As a Morris Groupie!) and met a load of friends and met new friends, one debate about "what is folk music" was a real eye opener, there were as many differing opinions as were people taking part, one discussion was about the preference of sessions to formal folk clubs it might be worth looking at evolution of the performance/audience. What I know about the "tradition" would probably fit in a walnut shell, I sing what I sing, in the style that i sing because that's the way i enjoy it and if others enjoy it it is a bonus not a prerequisite. If the aficionados (for whom I have great respect for their knowledge) take issue with that and start wagging that finger then they should stick it where the sun don't shine, surprisingly enough I am not alone in thinking that way, I have recently find out. Any way I listen to everyone and enjoy seeing people enjoy themselves, being a small part off it is wonderful, so stop bickering, all make friends and appreciate the differences it's what makes the world and it's always changing, not always for the worse.