Collapse of the Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 11:23 AM

"And if it closes down the backroom, cliquey dumps with ever-so-safe and dull booking policies (yes, they do still exist but we aren't naming them, are we?), I won't be complaining."

If you don't go to them, Diane, why SHOULD you care?

Except that those who DO go to them might care a great deal, and why should they be denied their drug-of-choice just because it doesn't float YOUR boat (or anyone else's for that matter)?

Live and let live lass, as Dave(BC) says (but in a different accent). Each to their own. Rantin' wain't chea-ange owt. How about it?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 10:37 AM

What I meant by "But all this ain't about "clubs"" was that my one posting as a response to a posting about a venue I happen to know was not about clubs.

We've all said goodness knows how much about our differing view of things and I seems to me that,apart from those of us singing from the same hymn sheet, we are going to have to agree to disagree.

With a few exceptions out there you are not going to change my mind and I'm not going to be able to change anybody else's mind.

We'm goin' round in zircles unnus an' us'll dizappear up our own fundimentals if us carries on like this,

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: henryclem
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 09:37 AM

I have followed this thread with an awed fascination. Quite clearly there are fiercely committed protagonists for a number of different definitions of what a Folk Club is (or was) and it is the nature of whichever definition you adhere to which determines perceptions as to collapse or otherwise.

The clubs I attend regularly are essentially singaround gatherings 3 weeks out of 4 (say) with guests (usually of national standing) once a month. The attendance on guest nights is generally higher, as you would expect, but the quality of the guests is largely dictated by the attendance at the other sessions which provides the income to enable their booking (capacity constraints make it well-nigh impossible for guest nights to be self-supporting financially). If the singers' nights are poorly attended sooner or later this will adversely affect both the frequency and calibre of the guests booked.

The Club host is going to know his/her regulars (or residents "because they're always there") and should then exercise judgment as to who gets a spot on a guest night. Sensible regulars should respect that judgment; after all there is plenty of opportunity for them to perform at other times. If they are motivated by vanity, or lack a self-critical faculty, they may well feel disappointed or even take offence; this doesn't have to be terminal, with a bit of tact (perhaps an extra spot, or the closing song, next week ...).

It is only on the rare occasion (maybe once a year) that residents may be booked as support act(s) for a particular guest night. At all other times, yes, the professional guests and the paying audience are going to be exposed to the floor spots and obviously it is in the best interests of the club to show off the strength and quality of its support.

I go along hoping, but not expecting, to get a spot and I show my respect for the guests (as I hope do others) by practising songs which are broadly compatible with their own music (and therefore the tastes of the audience they will attract). Various posters seem to suggest that artists and audiences need protecting from exposure to anything other than what they already know; however in my experience their response, often enough, shows genuine appreciation of originality and new material, and encouragement to the people who provide it.

I reckon you have to be selective in the venues (clubs or sessions) you attend but sometimes you just have to tolerate parts of what you get when you arrive if it is not to your taste. You're there for the rest of it - the "good" bits - and if that's not enough sooner or later you'll go somewhere else anyway. I drive a fair distance to clubs where I get a good night's entertainment (and participation!); if I judged even those clubs on the merits of their (to me) worst performers or most boring/self-indulgent songs then I wouldn't leave the house. The clubs won't collapse if I don't go, unless I'm the last straw in which case they are probably past saving.

Henry

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 08:23 AM

Twice as much - probably three times as much folk music as there ever was in Sheffield. Sessions most nights of the week. Just not much in the way of a club scene - one or two on the outskirts - personally I
too busy drinking the excellent beer to bother organising a club.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 08:23 AM

Yes, Fluff was in the line-up both times. Fantastic.

Clive has always looked like that. First time I met him (as opposed to seeing him onstage in a duo with Robin), he'd just got back from India after fleeing the original line-up even before the first record was released. This was in July 1968 at the Folk Cottage in Mitchell, Cornwall. He'd stitched himself a coat of army blankets because he felt so cold but couldn't find it and I helped him search the place. Then the person he'd asked to look after it for him returned with it. I think he left with all his banjos too, but maybe not.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 08:17 AM

Yes, I practised long and hard before I played in public and at sessions before I played in a club but nobody made me take an audition or produce references first. Before that, I was urged to play the concertina before I was really ready and if I hadn't been I probably wouldn't now be appearing as "and many more" on festival listings. The policy here is supportive and encouraging not "Not until you're good enough, mate."
The Lewes Arms FC is thriving; you say there are no folk clubs in Sheffield. Go figure.
(It might be something to do with the beer, of course.)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 08:11 AM

Was Fluff still fiddling with them if you'll excuse the expression? She was at Keele uni at the same time as my eldest and was very good even then - Saw her in the folk club there a couple of times. Clive certainly looks like time and substances have taken there toll. Not quite Keith Richards but getting there:-)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:57 AM

But all this ain't about "clubs"

It's about what is superseding the old-style (s'pose I can't write 'hat')? f*lk clubs of he 60s/70s revival which, according to the title, have 'collapsed'.

The world is different. F*lk clubs took over the space vacated by trad jazz. Nice . . . well OK at the time). Now the plasma screen for looking at the beautiful game rules the pubs. And if it closes down the backroom, cliquey dumps with ever-so-safe and dull booking policies (yes, they do still exist but we aren't naming them, are we?), I won't be complaining.

Sessions in pub bars are quite another matter and long may they continue.

Talking of the ISB, I've seen them twice relatively recently (once with Robin Williamson and once without) at London's Jazz Café, another brilliant venue with an eclectic booking policy. And yes, weren't they good?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:52 AM

Went north of Ringmer, about twenty miles, and the only beer on hand pump was Tetley's. I didn't realise The North started so soon.

Southern jessies. Tetleys is mass produced tat for tourists. Come and get some real beer in Sheffield.

Kelham Island. Wentworth. Sheffield Brewery. Abbeydale. Bradfield Brewery......................

I would not go to a singer's night knowing there would be some dross. No matter how large or small the fee. I no longer go to Singer's Night's for the reasons explained. Despite the added attraction of you playing the fiddle. Tell me how long did you practice the fiddle before making a public appearance? And how long before making a public appearance in front of a paying audience.

I doubt if anyone paid money to listen to your earliest scrapings. I think the same apprenticeship should apply to singers and it so rarely does.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:49 AM

Time for bed said Zebbedee - Boing

Do you think Florence is a virgin?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:44 AM

(The Snail, geddit?)

Time for bed said Zebbedee - Boing

I'll get me coat.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:38 AM

"Komedia in Brighton. That was (still is?) a 'night-club' style venue"

Just round the corner from where I work and their main downstairs was, the last time I was in there, set up cabaret (night-club if you will)style. However the setup can be changed to different format and they also have a smaller upstairs "studio" - saw Bellowhead a few weeks ago in there - open (standing)floor no seating.

I think somtimes you have to put up with seating arrangement that are not too your liking (rows, tiered or whatever0 if the Show is only going to be in that form in your area. Course if you are mobile enough you might be able to see the same show in a different form.

What the name of that converted church in Tonbridge where I saw the Battlefield Band a few years ago.

Burgess Hill also has community centre (Hall type venue) that has put on Steeleye and Maddy Prior in the past.

But all this ain't about "clubs".

I suppose it's a matter of know what you want and if you can find go for it.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:32 AM

Folkiedave
I would not go to a singer's night and pay my 50p (or £5.00) because I know the probability of seeing someone good is low.

You're depriving yourself Dave. We charge £3 for singer's nights and you will hear some excellent singers. Ok, maybe one or two not so good and you might have to put up with me playing the fiddle.

But stop exploiting artists,

All contracts are negotiated in advance with details of fees and accommodation. The artist can say no.

Dave Polshaw

The two are comepletely different things and should never be confused.

I think this is where I came in. See 23 May 07 - 09:16 AM. I completely disagree; they are simply points on a continuum. from the smallest session through a wide variety of styles and sizes of club, concerts, festivals and the Albert Hall. There is no yawning gap between them.

If I pay £15 for a concert I expect a good night. As you say, it is hypothetical anyway - Just as is your 3 hour concert and five minute singer. When did you last see a top act perform for three solid hours and when did you last see a bad floor singer shut up after five minutes;-)

Actually, I said "a three hour concert with Fairport at the top of the bill" and lets say 10 minutes for the floor singer. They'd have finished by the time you had faught it out with the box office.

(Are you a Dave as well BTW?)

Bryan (The Snail, geddit?)

Breton Cap
( I don't always win the bottle of red wine).

No, but too bloody often for chance. Dark deals have been done. When you aren't there, the cry goes up "Get your raffle tickets. Dave's not here so you are in with a chance.

Diane Easby
Er, no, not quite. What I am asking for is properly and professionally run venues with good working conditions, proper rates of pay, a good deal for punters who pay a fair price, and wonderful music and all this preferably not all seated in rows with no room for dancing.

Fine, but that's not the only way of doing it. Venues like that (e.g. The Komedia) are few and far between. Professional artists would have slim pickings.

Went to see Tom McConville, Claire Mann and Aaron Jones at the Hawth, Crawley last night. Wonderful concert by wonderful people but the audience in a studio theatre which could probably have seated 150 + was smaller than when we booked them. Similarly, went to see Alistair Anderson and his band of young musicians in a largish venue in Hove a few months ago. There were a handful in the audience, largely because the professional organisers didn't know how to advertise to a folky audience and didn't contact the local folk community till it was too late.

For Folkiedave. Yes! Went north of Ringmer, about twenty miles, and the only beer on hand pump was Tetley's. I didn't realise The North started so soon.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:23 AM

"dirty back room upstairs in the sleazy pub"

There used to be places like that but I haven't seen one for a long time.

The places I go to are upstairs,out the back, in the skittle alley type places but they are usually quite respectable and clean which is "decent" by some definitions. They engender a certain social togetherness (avoiding cliques the while) which is an aspect of "clubs" that add to the overall experience.

Food is a secondary consideration for me - if I want a meal I will use a restaurant or the dining area of a pub (sometimes the same one as where the club is (yes the Two Lewes places both do food)but I am usually out for the singing/music rather than feeding.

Good beer is rather more important but not always possible - depends on the landlord and pub chain.

In short there are ideals we all have but not everything is possible every time.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:09 AM

I think I mentioned on another thread that one of the best nights I ever had was watching the Incredible String Band at the Komedia in Brighton. That was (still is?) a 'night-club' style venue with table seating and table service for both food and drink. IBS were fabulous but the venue certainly did it's bit to help:-) You now have set me a task for the next few weeks! Find Salfords equivalent!

Cheers

Dave.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 06:58 AM

A 'decent' venue is a rather better description than merely a 'big' one.

Personally, I think the formal, purpose-built concert hall is the very worst place for our kind of music (though I'm sure Mr Cap's building is a very nice one). Fixed seating just isn't appropriate. Seating at tables and/or around the sides is much better. It even feels much more of a participative social occasion when entering such a room than prohibitive rows.

Town halls (Oxford/Guildford/Loughborough off the top of my head and church halls (St Lukes LSO or the converted Norwich Arts Centre) are excellent, as are many other arts or community centres (Bracknell, North Oxford and Crawley spring to mind). Apart from having the facilities (like food, a bar and dressing rooms), they are the antithesis of the dirty back room upstairs in the sleazy pub with a 'members only' notice on the door. The local community is thus encouraged to participate, not be scared off by what they perceive as weirdos.

The nightclub/cellar bar type of venue is also excellent. In London alone there is the Scala (a former cinema) where Bellowhead have staged two highly successful bashes at an entrance fee of under £10, the (sadly threatened) Spitz, Borderline and Bush Hall (a former snooker club).

I have no intention whatsoever of taking up challenges to organise myself. Done that a quarter of a century ago and found it's a thankless task and absolutely impossible to please everyone. I'll give advice on programming to anyone who seeks it, but no more.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 06:47 AM

TheSnail,When I replied toJim Carroll,there was no suggestion in my post,thatfolk club organisers dont appreciate constructive criticism.
There are lots of people on this thread,who seem to have ideas about running folk clubs efficiently, well we have a shortage of club organisers [its a thankless task].so why dont they start their own venues[be it acoustic clubs or folkclubs],.
I am sure we would all benefit.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 06:24 AM

"The rooms may still be small but, after a while, at least they won't stink!"

The clubs in this part of the world have all been non-smoking for a long time (they all have use of separate rooms. Festival have done the same in most cases that I know off.

And I became non-smoking (for the umpteenth time) a year ago.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 06:20 AM

"The balance may not be instantly achievable but it can happen with thought and planning".

Hmm!!

Can you give us a frinstance.

Can't picture what your ideal (or least worse) might be.


Good performance goes without saying , good deal all round too.

But space for dancing- Do you mean a floor as in a Celidh or dancing in the aisles. The second is not permitted in concert halls usually (at least one I work in) because of blocking emergency exit routes.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 06:20 AM

Sorry Diane - I didn't realise that. Is 'decent' venue rather than 'big' a better description? I think you have the right of it as well in no-one complaining about the shortcomings because they enjoyed themselves so much. If the artist is poorly paid and treated like shite then they will most certainly be pissed off. Who wouldn't be. If, however, they are at least in pocket and have a good time I think there are some who would treat it as a 'night off' and do the gig anyway:-)

Just a thought - I wonder if the absence of smoke in Public Houses after July 1st will make a difference? The rooms may still be small but, after a while, at least they won't stink!

Cheers

Dave.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 06:09 AM

Diane and various others support the the big venue approach

Er, no, not quite. What I am asking for is properly and professionally run venues with good working conditions, proper rates of pay, a good deal for punters who pay a fair price, and wonderful music and all this preferably not all seated in rows with no room for dancing.

I've felt alienated at some large venues where the (lack of) ambience detracted hugely from the quality of the music as well as at some giant festivals which ran like clockwork but lacked any vestige of soul. On the other hand, I've had the most fantastic time at the most shambolic, tiny gatherings (though I suspect no-one whinged about monetary shortcomings because they were enjoying themselves so much).

The balance may not be instantly achievable but it can happen with thought and planning.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 06:05 AM

"We used to offer a pint of beer to be downed as rapidly as possible as the third prize in the raffle. The winner over the year got a commemorative tankard".

Not come across that one but I like the idea

Perhaps not always ideal for those who have drive

Dave
(The Snail is a Bryan)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 06:00 AM

There are three of us. Can we be the posh submarine commanders?

Dave, Dave, Dave!


Chuckle chuckle

But dammit i lost the submariners badge off my cap at the festival before last.

Therefore

Dave,Dave,Dive

Closing hatch on the way down.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 06:00 AM

( I don't always win the bottle of red wine).

See, folk music is now totally middle class and has lost touch with its roots. :-)

We used to offer a pint of beer to be downed as rapidly as possible as the third prize in the raffle. The winner over the year got a commemorative tankard.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:56 AM

Snail -

but are you seriously saying that if you had to put up with five minutes of something duff in a three hour concert with Fairport at the top of the bill you'd demand your money back?

Yes I would. If I pay £15 for a concert I expect a good night. As you say, it is hypothetical anyway - Just as is your 3 hour concert and five minute singer. When did you last see a top act perform for three solid hours and when did you last see a bad floor singer shut up after five minutes;-)

Cheers

Dave

(Are you a Dave as well BTW?)

:D

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:53 AM

"I would certainly go the the Lewes Arms week after week after week were it local to me"

And you would be welcome.

We have nationally known "names" regularly and on other weeks a more local singer/muso who does his/her thing for the love of it and the "Hat collection".

We ask for a set entrance fee each week which is increased when we have a higher status guest. How much that is is not really relevant here but other clubs may find a similar charging policy workable. "What the market will bear" is going to be one of the factors to be considered along with any room hire costs. A little bit of surplus to save up for a bigger name guest, and the ubiquitous raffle [£1 a strip?]( I don't always win the bottle of red wine).

It really needs proper joined-up thinking to make it all work.

So I suppose it almost amounts to running a little business and therefore club organisers need to be as "professional2 as they are able to be.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:51 AM

So Dave (BC) and Dave (FD) I think we are all in agreement - None of us would put on poor quality floor singers on a night when people have come to see someone of 'National' or 'Festival' quality. What have some of the past arguments been about? I think Folkiedaves comment "It's when people mix the two up I worry" is very pertinent. A much more succinct way of saying what I have been trying to say about comparing two different things. Diane and various others support the the big venue approach. Others support the small club. The two are comepletely different things and should never be confused.

If we want to have somewhere for people to practice in public then lets stick with a 'beginers workshop'. If the angst ridden teenager wants to tell me of his latest romantic missadventure then let him do it at a songwriters open mike night. If I want to see Vin Garbutt I would be happy to pay £15 at the Bridgewater Hall. How on earth can all these things come under the one roof of a 'folk club'? I know what it means to me and I am sure other people have different interpretations. But surely it is too confusing for anyone wanting to understand what is going on in the 'scene'. So - back to the thread title - Maybe the 'collapse' is not of folk clubs per se but of what people believe is a folk club?

Cheers

Dave

PS - There are three of us. Can we be the posh submarine commanders?

Dave, Dave, Dave!

I'll close the door on way out should I?

:D

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:40 AM

Dave Polshaw
Well, since we are unlikely to book Fairport and we don't have any doddering old ladies reciting their own poetry this is just as hypothetical as Folkie Dave's Goth band but are you seriously saying that if you had to put up with five minutes of something duff in a three hour concert with Fairport at the top of the bill you'd demand your money back?

Diane Easby
it is their livelihood as well as their passion in life.
...and it is the choice they have made. If I was forty years younger and had somewhat more talent it's I choice I might make myself. I know of young people who are making that choice now. Others are equally passionate without expecting to make a living at it.
The treatment of the trio you decribed and the dirty mattress on the floor are clearly unnacceptable but I can't believe they are typical or all the professionals would have packed it in long ago.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:34 AM

That should read "A shame not to see them" Sorry.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:29 AM

I would certainly go the the Lewes Arms week after week after week were it local to me.

With the quality of the artists it would be a shame not to miss them. I would assume the people you are booking of whom I have not heard are of good quality otherwise you would not be booking them. This I believe is the success of the Lewes Arms. I would therefore be happy to take the odd "Dave and the Goths". though I doubt if you ever get people of that quality.

That is not the argument. I would not go to a singer's night and pay my 50p (or £5.00) because I know the probability of seeing someone good is low. Despiute the quantity. I would and do go to see professional performers who are being paid and I am happy to pay the price of a ticket.

If you go to a festival then you will find instead of tents half the space is taken up with large trailer tents, decent caravans, mobile homes at up to £30,000 etc etc. Go to the record stall and see how many CD's the people buy. The people who go to folk music seem to have plenty of cash and are happy to spend it on their hobby. See the amateur melodeon players with their £2,500 Castagnaris etc. And as a second-hand folk book seller I can verify they spend money on books too.

It is when people mix the two up I worry. Why not take the best (if there is some) of your singer's nights and put them on with guests? Give them a tenner or summat.

But stop exploiting artists, give them decent accommodation, and a decent breakfast, explain of finding a changing room is difficult etc etc. It is hardly rocket science.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: treewind
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:24 AM

"I'm not sure that I see the professional folk performers as the main carriers of the folk tradition; it had, after all, gone on for hundreds of years without them."

I don't think so. For example:
"He who pays the piper calls the tune" is a proverb older than the 20th Century folk revival.
The broadsides that carry the words of songs and ballads and are still used as a source of words by singers who research their traditional material were sold for the purpose of making money for the songwriters and printer.

"I think the real strength lies in the hundreds (thousands?) of people who sing and play and dance for the love of it, the many folk club organisers who put in hours of unpaid work (and quite often their own money), and the armies of volunteers who run the festivals in return for a season ticket that they can't get full value from because they are working so hard."

I'd be the last person to denigrate the great work that all those people put in, but to use your own words, "the folk tradition has gone on for hundreds of years without them", too.

The truth is, both groups need each other. If there wasn't the network of beginner-friendly clubs, workshops and sessions where aspiring singers can learn their trade, there wouldn't be any professionals (as someone quoted, they were all beginners once). If there were no professionals, there'd be far less recording and dissemination of material - (where would people learn their songs from?) and there would be far fewer and much smaller festivals - try running a festival without booking any paid performers!

By professional performers, I mean anyone who gets paid. Very few make a living entirely out of folk music, some do it full time and I don't envy their lifestyle at all, and I think the vast majority, like myself, are part timers. That doesn't mean, however, that they should sing and play for less than their music is worth - they are devaluing the market and putting the full timers out of business by doing that.

I should add that I'm quite aware than many people are part of both groups. Think of people like Bob and Gill Berry. Both have day jobs, they work their socks off running a festival and a club but if they can get a few paid gigs too they deserve to get a decent rate for it.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:17 AM

"come to see Fairport Convention at £15 a ticket? "

Fairport are unlikely to appear at a small local club so in their case we are probably talking about a major venue. S.O.H have 'done' the Albert Hall and so have Waterson Carthy. The is not going to be opportunity for Floor Spots in places such as I cite.

We can however get major players on the Club/Festival circuits (Dave & Anni and the like) who I have seen enjoy hearing a spot from the floor and they have shown appreciation of the attempt.

Personally if I were MC on a night when the Guest had the status I am now thinking of I might be a bit circumspect as to who I offered a spot to. On the plus side I have found that this sort of guest brings in a lot of our good local singers so there is the chance to introduce them with something like " Lets have song/tune (whatever) from ...... who we don't see here as regularly as we would like" or some such phrase. This seems to avoid ruffled feathers from the less expert/experienced or weaker people who might be in.

I suppose it all comes from knowing your guest artist(s) and your audience.

Knowing how you would like an evening to run and trying to organize it thus is the rule of thumb I try to use when it is my turn to MC.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:00 AM

I'm not sure that I see the professional folk performers as the main carriers of the folk tradition

They are certainly the public face and it is their livelihood as well as their passion in life.
I cannot see this as a reason to treat them as merely the hired hands and begrudge paying them any more than the window cleaner.

Note: I am not naming any venue in particular (though I could) and I am NOT referring to the Lewes Arms.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:49 AM

What do you mean by 'in front of a paying audience' though, Snail? Is it to sing in front of a singers night audience who, like our lot, pays their 50p and takes their chance? Or is it front of an audience who have come to see Fairport Convention at £15 a ticket? If it is the former I have no issue at all. If it is the latter then I am afraid I must disagree most strongly. If I came to see a big name or, worse still, if someone who knew nothing of the 'folk club concept' came to see them and was presented with a doddery old lady reciting poetry about he grandkids from an excercise book, or a bunch of lads who really don't understand that their instruments shoudl be in tune with each other at least, I would want my money back! We are still trying to compare apples and oranges here and getting into all sorts of unecessary disagreements.

I agree completely with Diane over the horrendous treatment of the trio mentioned. If we could not pay them a decent fee and put them up we would not book them. Simple as that. It does mean that on a 'standard' club night we are restricted to the artists who happen to be in the area. Luckily we are on a Monday and artists in the area for the weekend will sometimes extend their tour accordingly. After the last discussions we had here, combined with addressing some other failings of our club, I have decicded to do 'specials' where the fee can be set by the artist and where we are flexible as to the night and arrangements. See! The Mudcat in action:-)

I could do with some more bookings - Any suggestions from out there?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:42 AM

Diane Easby
The working conditions are shit and the pay abominable. This is no way to treat the carriers of our national heritage. Entrance fee on the door should be £10 minimum, And that door should lead to premises fit to work in.

I'm not sure that I see the professional folk performers as the main carriers of the folk tradition; it had, after all, gone on for hundreds of years without them. I think the real strength lies in the hundreds (thousands?) of people who sing and play and dance for the love of it, the many folk club organisers who put in hours of unpaid work (and quite often their own money), and the armies of volunteers who run the festivals in return for a season ticket that they can't get full value from because they are working so hard. I know of one festival organiser who has risked personal bankruptcy because of the time away from running his business.
The professionals have chosen to do what they love to make a living (and who doesn't envy them that?) but they knew what they were getting themselves into and that it wasn't going to make them rich. With us, all fees, door charges and accommodation arrangements are negotiated before any contracts are signed.

concertina ceol
Brian, I've been trying to do the maths today

High P... I'm glad you enjoyed the day. I'd just like to point out to our listeners that I did not do a floorspot on Saturday. Obviously, I can't discuss our contractual arrangements with our guests in public but perhaps we can have a private word sometime. I think you might benefit from coming to some of our less high profile evenings, local rather than national guest and singaround.

Breton Cap
We are a bit more civilised than a mattress on the floor.

I sometimes wonder if the success of the LAFC is entirely due to Valmai's cooking.

Cap'n wrote,
"some of the contributors to this thread already run folk clubs,those that dont,might be well advised to stop talking about it, but go out and run one in a better fashion."
I've never written a book or made a film; does that mean I can't discuss books and films? Bugger - I used to love doing that!
Jim Carroll

For once, I agree with Jim. I think folk club organisers welcome all constructive feedback. It will get more notice if it is put politely.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:10 AM

Folkiedave
There is - I acknowledge - a school of thought that says anyone can be allowed to sing in front of a paying audience. I don't agree with it and I believe it is (just one) of the reasons for the collapse of folk clubs - NB not folk music which is thriving.

That is the school of thought at the Lewes Arms Folk Club, a club that is NOT collapsing where folk music IS thriving.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:05 AM

The Snail wrote
"Would Jim Carroll have told source singers "That's not good enough. I'm not going to record you until you've done a bit more practice."?
What a daft question; of course I wouldn't, (I was under the impression that the discussion was on clubs, not field recording - silly me!)
A collector is after songs and information; style and technique are a bonus. I would hesitate to take them to a folk club if I thought their singing was not good enough and would cause them embarrassment. Anybody who has done any field recording knows that the hardest part is to persuade singers that they have anything worthwhile to offer and that by singing for you they are not going to humiliate themselves.
Jim Carroll

I am so appalled by this statement that I can't bring myself to respond to it. Obviously there can be no meeting of minds.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 03:45 AM

no jim .it means,if youdont like what you see ,go out and do something positive run a club in a better fashion.
Tootler I agree with you.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 03:26 AM

Cap'n wrote,
"some of the contributors to this thread already run folk clubs,those that dont,might be well advised to stop talking about it, but go out and run one in a better fashion."
I've never written a book or made a film; does that mean I can't discuss books and films? Bugger - I used to love doing that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:18 PM

I wish to stay anonymous for this posting for obvious reasons.
I'm a working pro. I work generally on a percentage, a realisable basic fee against 75% of the door take after the expenses of the club, minimum entrance £6.00. My average fee is about £350.
I would love to have gigs in sequence but most clubs are on fridays or saturdays or sundays and in one area it's basically impossible to find two willing to take you on consecutive nights because when one club comes in for you the other is already booked up for the season.
So, here's the figures on the last gig.
Fee, including percentage £300
cd sales £170
Costs.
cds impossible to work out, but all costs including recording costs about £80
Toll road..to avoid the M6 £7.00
Petrol. Approx £40 for the round trip
Agent's fee £45
Tax on the rest...average approx 10% =

approx a £260 profit from a £470 take.
I drove 380 miles round trip in a day. Bed at 3p.m.
I had a full house and a great night. Wouldn't do anything else, but remember the number of clubs who can afford me is limited. I don't do a huge amount of gigs and neither do many of my contemporaries who are household names.
The Rusbys and the Show of Hands and the Waterson/Carthys can work at the next level, but the jump from a full folk club to a small theatre of say 500 seats is beyond most folk pros. To equal the average national wage I'd need to do 90 gigs a year and I'm nowhere near that. Luckily website cd sales and some royalties help me keep my head just above water every year, but I'll retire on a private pension of about £2000 a year plus the state's pittance. Now think what it's like if your a band!
£10 (4 pints today) would help a lot of great musicians as a door charge, but even recently I was offered a gig by a club that would only charge £4.00. It was economically unviable.
This is not a complaint. I've had a wonderful life and feel privileged, but I just think Diane's points should be backed up by some facts.
So there they are.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:51 PM

CMR

No, it wasn't them but I'm sure they've had similar experiences.

It's a long time since I've been on the road but it is quite astonishing how experiences differ. Yes, I've had quite horrible treatment but also many good ones (like staying in a castle). What I'm saying is that it's very inconsistent.

Yes, if you want an artist you should look after them. Like you would any visitor. I don't mean a suite in the local Hilton.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:37 PM

'ever so hit-and-miss'

Not sure that that is always so.We are a bit more civilised than a mattress on the floor.

I know of people with caravans on the drive that have been offered to artists from time to time.

We take the view that if you want an artist (and can afford to pay )then you should be looking after them.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Tootler
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:37 PM

Folkiedave Just spotted this in another thread.

As always I'm on the look out for musicians who might play for us. Any offers?? Also anyone who wants to, is welcome to come and dance (regadless of whether or not they've danced border morris before)

and commented, sarcastically That'll give morris dancing a good name then.....,

Everyone has to start somewhere. It seems to me a reasonable request. After all, enthusiasm and a willingness to learn is the important thing. The rest I am sure the existing members will be able to teach the newcomers.

This sort of thing is typical of the intolerant and patronising attitudes I read on this and other threads and I am getting fed up of it.

My (re)introduction to the world of folk music was at a Folkworks absolute beginners day. Alistair Anderson stood up at the front of a packed hall and said something to the effect "Welcome to our absolute beginners day ... Remember all of your tutors were once absolute beginners ..."

I suggest that is something that some of those who are rubbishing the current folk clubs and saying how things are not what they were in the halcyon days "when everything was perfect" would do well to remember about themselves. You were all once beginners and I bet your first "public" appearances were pretty ropy.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:31 PM

No, it was a straight approach and no nearby bookings offered.

Yes, I know that accommodation is sometimes provided but it's ever so hit-and-miss.
There was a time (long ago) that I was shown a very dubious mattress on the floor of an unheated room (it was January), amid tales of who else had slept there. My Renault 4 was a preferable option.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:25 PM

PS would C.M.R. mean anything as regards your trio?

What you say fits in with what I know about that group.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:22 PM

£7.00 is just not enough.

Probably not but successful clubs have some reserves and I know of occasions when the cost of the artist have been 'underwritten' by individuals.

Oh and on more than one occasion I and my partner have put up visiting artists in our spare room so that they don't have to drive stright home

Diane did your trio have a agent to do the negotiations for them? I know some agents are rip-off merchants but perhaps a good one could have organized a mini tour so that the artist pay would be greater and their costs spread out over two or three bookings.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:09 PM

Dave, I would say that therein lies the problem.

£7.00 is just not enough.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:08 PM

£300 - £500? Interesting.
Let me quote you the example of a well-known trio who were invited to a club in the North East for £150.
As they live in scattered locations throughout the South(ish) of England, this would have taken three days out of their lives and cost that much in fuel.
Did they take the booking?
Could they afford to take it?
Clearly not.

Re: dressing rooms. I was appalled to hear about a 16-year-old young woman performer who was told to change behind the bar 'because everybody else does'. And I didn't mention hotel accommodation. I'm talking about artists who have driven a hell of a long way from home and who are simply waved off after the gig. Surely someone on the organising committee has a spare room or at least a sofa?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 05:51 PM

Diane

Green room, dressing rooms,refreshments,hotel?

The organisation I work for provides that sort of stuff when they book the likes of Richard Thompson, van Morrison, Ladysmith Black Mambaso etc.

However the bums on the seat have to pay £20 plus and there needs to be over a 1000 of them.

Yes all very nice for all concerned but not really viable for a local 'club' is it?

The Royal Oak in Lewes put on Martin and Norma once every year or so and pay them whatever it is they negotiate with the agents. Those of us that go to see them paid £7 (or thereabouts) the last time that happened.

My point is that major 'venues' can afford to provide the facilities and artists (or their agents ) ask for a larger fee when playing such places. At 'clubs' many artists agree to being paid what is probably something in the £300 - £500 range. Also of course Fire regulations limit the number of people permitted in function rooms.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 05:48 PM

I agree that it is a low door charge, Diane. I am fighting a generaly loosing battle to drag us into the 21st century, while still trying to satisy the needs of our existing audience. It is difficult which is why I am asking the questions I have and why I get a little narked with the unhelpful attitude of some posters. I do try my best to ensure that the artist is looked after and if at all possible we will try to book someone while they are on the way to or from a 'proper' gig. It is what we did with Hank Weddell and Roy Barron a couple of weeks back and what we hope to do with a very famous Mudcat member in a few weeks:-)

To be honest it is probably even worse than you think - Our room is so small we can only comfortably get 40 people in so even at £6... Well, you can do the maths. It does make it a good intimate night though and I can't recal an evening where the artist booked has not enjoyed it at least! I must say that we have had to subsidise certain nights as it would be too embarasing to offer the act what we have actualy taken:-(

I would be sad to see the concept of an intimate venue, where people can see good acts at a reasonable cost, go down the drain. Maybe that is why we need to accept that we will not get Waterson Carthy every week but every now and again we can build up the funds enough to do something special for both the audience and the artist. I realy don't know what to do for the best at times but I do hope that doing what we do is better than doing nothing at all.

Out of interest we also run a annual festival where, through various devious means, we CAN pay the 'going rate'. On that day we get at least 2 'nationals' who will not only perform in the concert venue but will appear in the public bar all day singaround - Hence doing something to 'spread the word' as well:-)

A little tale I have just remembered. My cousins daughter was visiting from the US some years back. She was about 20 years old, if I remember rightly, with no concept of folk music or the UK 'scene'. As part of her visit we took her to the folk club. On leaving we obviously solicited her opinion.

"It was realy good." Was her reply. Adding, with a usual youngsters way of telling it as it is, "It's great to see somewhere where white middle-aged men can get together to enjoy themselves." I think she had the right of it but just because it is not a concert does not make it wrong does it? Unless we pretended to be something else of course, which I suspect is a major point of contention. I have never pretended to anything other than what we are. Surely there is space for all of us:-)

Cheers

Dave