Collapse of the Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 28 May 07 - 11:04 AM

Unless I've missed a posting in what I think a fairly turgid mass above, no-one seems to have commented on the social side of a folk club. It is not just a place to watch star artists, promising newcomers or less-promising stalwarts, it is a place to meet people of similar interests, and make friends (or at least friendly acquaintances). If that means putting up with Joe's less-than-stellar guitar pounding on Singers' Nights, or Alice's somewhat quavery voice, well so be it. Into each life a little rain must fall. For every performer who continues to mumble along at floor level, there's another who soars with the opportunity.

Not everyone who goes to a folk club is an performer, real or potential. Some of us just love the music, or the song, or both. If we insist on high standards, we only attend when someone good is on. If we can't stand anything other than traditional, we avoid the singer-songwriters. As for blues or banjoes, the least said the better. But the clubs fill a need that sessions wouldn't begin to touch.

Folk clubs are not as popular as they were in the good old days because folk music isn't as popular as it was in the good old days. Blaming the clubs for that is a bit like blaming Morris dancers for global warming.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 May 07 - 08:14 AM

LOL Dave! Looking forward to it!
BWM
PS, I'm no great shakes either, I just LURVE singing. Beats bean-counting any day!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:16 AM

So why not learn new skills in workshops, practice them at home, try them out in a singaround or session, the perform them as a 'floor spot' when ready? Hey, this is what actually happens most of the time!

Precisely what I have been suggesting!!My sole objection is the practising in public.

As for tours-de- force, I was lucky enough to see Mike Waterson the first time he ever sang Tam Lin. At the end the audience sat totally spellbound. No applause, nothing for (what seemed like) about five seconds. A wonderful performance. People can get involved. Thinking of Lal Waterson singing "Stow Brow" can still bring tears to my eyes over forty years later.

Twice in the last week or so I have seen Carthy sing and Eliza play "Two Sisters" (Beaux of London), each time totally stunning.

Powerful performances by powerful singers know no bounds IMHO. A good friend and professional singer always says (when he is compering a show and some particularly talented musician finishes playing) "just think of the amount of practice that went into that".

Think of the amount of practice that went into Mike Waterson singing Tam Lin sufficient to get it that good.

And go and do as near likewise as you can.

BWM as for auditioning each other I will fail the audition - but I will succeed on the drinking bit no problem!!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 May 07 - 06:56 AM

Tam Lin and Beowolf the province of academics? Not entirely, but why shouldn't they be studied in an academic context? They are literature as well as oral tradition. I smell inverted snobbery.

Hugh Lupton, the poet and storyteller, performs both. I have seen him transfix entirely 'non-f*lky' audiences of all ages in community centres and village halls. When asked in an interview at the time of the First Gulf War what was relevance of Beowulf in modern times, he pointed immediately to the television images of abandoned, burned-out tanks along the route of the retreat from Basra as modern-day 'dragons', transformed imagery of events too horrible to confront directly.

In a performance by Dick Gaughan of Willie O' Winsbury, I have seen a bunch of definitely non-f*lky blokes in a community setting stand up and cheer at the bit where Willie tells the father just what he can do with his house and land, offered as a bribe to marry his daughter.

People out there understand and identify with the immense truth and beauty of our cultural heritage as long as it is presented excellently and with respect. What they find incomprehensible and ridiculous is unrehearsed f*lk club floor spots belting out dissonant, out-of-time renditions with clearly not a thought for the meaning of what they are singing.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 28 May 07 - 06:10 AM

Backwoodsman and Folkiedave: surely there is room for compromise? BWM is quite right that performing in front of an audience is a quite different point along the learning curve from practising at home. I've always believed that, no matter how perfectly-practised a new song or tune is, you've only ever learned it when you've 'sung it out'. However, Dave is equally right that a standing-up-at-the-front floorspot is a less suitable place to be rehearsing your new material than an informal singaround. Also - going back to Brian the Snail and the Lewes Arms - a single song in a round-the-room progression is less of a 'performance' than a three-item floorspot.

So why not learn new skills in workshops, practice them at home, try them out in a singaround or session, the perform them as a 'floor spot' when ready? Hey, this is what actually happens most of the time! And folk club MCs presenting an evening in which formal floorspots are the warm-up to a guest performance usually have the sense to pick and choose from the available talent, and to quietly overlook those who would bring the evening down. Yes, we have all witnessed occasions on which this self-regulation has failed horribly, but if we want to retain any semblance of democratic music-making, we're stuck with it.

Weelittledrummer wrote: "....if you ever saw Ewan MacColl sing [Tam Lin] you saw somebody apply himself with the same committment as a great shakespearian actor doing one of the "big" speeches."

And, in the same post: "What exactly are you suggesting that trad folk songs become like Beowulf and Chaucer - and the province of academics?"

Leaving aside the point that any kind of popular music, from the Beatles to punk and beyond, is the province of academics these days, the whole point about big songs like the Child ballads is that they work on many levels: as epic drama (your Shakespearian analogy is bang-on), as grist to the mills of academia, and also as gripping, in-your-face entertainment - best presented in a relatively intimate setting.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Spidey Bobe
Date: 28 May 07 - 05:14 AM

I wish I was a wesident, so I could sing Gwey Funnel Line!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 May 07 - 04:37 AM

Yes Backwoodsman....not least of all Paul Young.....Phil Brougham..... only in the last few years........Tolerance I say tolerance is what is needed...what ho!!!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 May 07 - 01:31 AM

OK Dave, we don't agree. Shame, but there ya go.

There's no point us keep going on, each gainsaying the other - we don't agree, probably never will. I believe in tolerance as the way to a better world and I'm happy to tolerate those who hold differing views from mine.

What say we call it a day and, should we meet (after all, I'd like to bet we must live within an hour's drive of one another), we can audition one another over a pint! :-)

And FTR, I know a number of instrumentalists whose talents have been developed and honed in club settings, some of them were crap, to say the least, when they started out but they're now excellent and, equally important, confident performers.

Cheers,
BWM

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Peter Stockport
Date: 27 May 07 - 06:15 PM

"impressive list of residents at Harry Boardmans"
Brian, I think I lumped Harry's in with the ropey ones by accident.
I only went there once or twice, perhaps a few times in Didsbury and also I seem to remember at the Magnet in Stockport.
What I meant to say was that although Harry's was good there were also some appalling performers, everyone wasn't fantastic.

That's not a bad thing, I always think everyone should get a turn.
What I was pointing out was that in the "Golden Era" there were plenty of bad and just average performers,
Perhaps with more choice of clubs it just wasn't so obvious.

Or, perhaps everyone just liked folk more in them days.


Peter

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 07 - 05:40 PM

They do practise in public at my local folk club. I'm sure they practise beforehand as well, but I've seen quite a few go from beginner who loses it in public, to proficiency.

You guys must go to different sorts of folk clubs.

I think maybe that's why I find Mudcat so weird sometimes - most people I know on the folk scene are pretty good eggs and they are tolerant. On here everybody seems to have an axe to grind and discount somebody else's view of folk music as invalid.

I wonder if many people here actually go to folk clubs. maybe they went years ago and they think its all right to keep kicking up shit like those groups in A Mighty Wind - slagging each off for being commercial sell outs.

The climate has changed. Those of us still on the scene are trying to cling onto what scenes left, and we tend to be tolerant.

personally speaking I don't sitting through quite a bit of what seems to me rubbish, as long as the craics in there somewhere.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 May 07 - 05:15 PM

So why don't we ever see melodeon/fiddle players practising in public like you suggest singers do? Do they only ever arrive fully formed?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 07 - 04:56 PM

No Dave, I'm not in favour of lowering standards, far from it. What I'm against is newbies being denied the opportunity to learn to perform IN FRONT OF AN AUDIENCE. It's not the same thing as noodling to yourself in your front room - I didn't learn that skill by noodling in my front room and I doubt you did either. I learned by actually getting up in front of people, gritting my teeth, clenching my buttocks and DOING it. Fortunately I was encouraged, not auditioned, so when I bummed a few notes, fluffed a chord or corpsed a line I was told "Don't worry, do another song later - you'll be OK", not told to go away and don't come back until I was word and chord perfect.

One of the worst fears for a new performer is that of being judged and found wanting, 'not good enough' or 'not doing the right kind of material', and I fear that it's a put-off for some would-be's who, given the right encouragement and opportunity, could turn into accomplished performers. Walking away from them isn't the way to bring them on, is it?

There was a time when Nic Jones, Martin Simpson and Martin Carthy couldn't play very well. I wonder if they were told to bugger off and practice in their bedrooms and don't come back till they were good enough! :-) :-)

As I said Dave, just my opinion. I think we both want to arrive at the same destination, we just disagree on the best road to get there, that's all.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 07 - 04:18 PM

"If folk music is seen by the next generation of folk musicians as nothing more than a performance art then, to my mind, something is lost."


the thing is of course that traditional folksongs have brought forward some very great performances. I made fun of The Ballad of Tam Linn, but if you ever saw Ewan MacColl sing it - you saw somebody apply himself and apply himself with the same committment as a great shakespearian actor doing one of the "big" speeches.

Mind you he's had his critics on Mudcat - people who he was rude to, people who say he did the wrong kind of Scottish accent.....they say nobody kicks a dead dog, but it makes you wonder.

What exactly are you suggesting that trad folk songs become like Beowulf and Chaucer - and the province of academics? Perhaps the trad singarounds should be just for the tradspotters who don't care that its being read from an exercise book, by someone with no expression - (as long as its trad - its better than Tom Paxton) - they just want to be reminded of its existence by like minded souls. I think that's fair enough - its a free society and if thats what they want - they're entitled to it.

I don't like their tendency to say that everything else isn't folk music, but I'm getting used to it as a Mudcat regular.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 May 07 - 03:18 PM

No, It ceased to exist long ago..........

It was on Oxford Rd. as I remember from over forty years ago............

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 07 - 03:06 PM

The Clarendon - is that the one on the Wilmslow Road?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Spidey Bobe
Date: 27 May 07 - 01:46 PM

What I have noticed is that residents, sometimes dire performers, often pronounce the letter R as W, and worse - replace the letter L with W, and bleat like a sheep or goat when they sing. This alone must put off many folks from attending folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 May 07 - 12:13 PM

But I will never accept that someone who wishes to sing or play should have to jump through hoops, be 'judged' as good enough, or gain some sort of unofficial NVQ in Folk singing, before they are 'permitted' to perform by some kind of self-elected Folk-Simon-Cowells. Which is where some contributors would appear to want folk clubs to go. That route is the road to disaster.

I don't know of anyone who is suggesting NVQ's and so on. Anyone who wants to sing and play should be allowed to do so. What people are suggesting is that to perform in front of a paying or indeed a listening public then you need to be able to play your instrument or sing with some skill and confidence or both. I am sorry you don't feel you can agree with that.

We would not accept a melodeon player who could only play a few notes, forgot the tune, and played badly - and we don't have to because melodeon (read fiddle or most other instruments) don't feel they have to practice in front of the paying public.(Bodhran players excepted!)

When they are learning they go to sessions and workshops where they are often well-supported, and practice that way. The young people I see in sessions at festivals did not arrive fully formed, they went to summer schools and sessions, practiced and learnt their instrument to a level. Gradually as they do more practice and as they get more competent the level gets higher. Oh that singers did the same.

For some reason we accept poor singers and you are happy to do so. I don't see why we should and whilst you believe anyone should be allowed to play and sing in front of the paying public then you are not respecting the music or the audience.

Now I would argue that along with the amplification issue, the problem with pubs and licensees and so on - one of the reasons that the number of folk clubs is a patch on what it was (at the same time as an expansion in folk music) is precisely that many did allow "anyone" to perform - that there were no standards just as you seem to want and that consequently people - such as myself and Jim Carroll from this thread, stopped going. That was the road to disaster and so it has proven as the number of folk clubs has shrunk whilst folk music has become more and more popular. There may be little knots of people performing to themselves and good luck to them wherever they may be - but IMHO they do little for the music or for its development.

Nostalgic Note

When I was going to Harry's Club at the Clarendon (err...err.....early 60's!!) the residents were Harry and Lesley, Terry Whelan, Terry Griffiths,(still one of the best singers I have ever heard), Tom Gilfellon who was at college in Manchester and Dave Hillery.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 May 07 - 10:10 AM

when I started to go to folk club as a floor singer,if you were not competent you were not guaranteed to be given a spot the next week,if it was clear that you had potential,you were encouraged and sometimes suggestions as to how you could improve were made.
this was about 1969, 1970,therewere lots of good floorsingers so competetion proved a healthy incentive to self improvement.
Two clubs I would particuarly like to thank were Dartford andPete Hicks[Farningham,a club where I later graduated to do a guest spot]

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 27 May 07 - 10:01 AM

"Harry Boardmans club had some outrageously bad turns! They weren't all good."

Residents (1980-85 ish): Harry & Lesley Boardman, Joe Kerins, Steve Mayne, Bob Morton, Mary Humphries, Mark Dowding, me.

Regular performers: Tony Hill, Paul Connor, Steve Woolley, Mick Barkis, Margaret Peters, Chris Cole (sorry for any I forgot).

Occasional visitors: Terry Whelan, Donal Maguire, The Village Band, Gorton Tank, Steve the Australian, Gerry Murphy .....

I'm not saying there was never an 'outrageously bad turn', Peter, but most nights were pretty damn solid as far as my memory serves. Otherwise I wouldn't have gone every week!

But your point about Granny and Grandad is well made.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Peter Stockport
Date: 27 May 07 - 09:19 AM

35 years ago I started to go to folk clubs. There were some clubs with absolutely marvellous acts all evening and no poor stuff. Poynton springs to mind locally. But there were loads of clubs with appallingly bad singers and performers. Since I wasn't good enough to sing at Poynton I did the rounds of the singers. Harry Boardmans club had some outrageously bad turns! They weren't all good. Once you went away from the best the standard went through the floor.
I remember as many bad ones as good ones, probably more. The singers only clubs could be apalling. Perhaps you lot remember them with rose tints on! Yes, there were always one or two good ones in a night but the rest were no better than now.
I went to a comedy night in Manchester last month, there were about two hundred people watching some of the worst acts I've ever seen in my life. Most of the audience was under 25. It was open mike night.It was still fun though.
I'd guess that's where the folk audience went. It went to something new, something fun, exciting and different. Somewhere the old people don't hold the reins, somewhere you can be crap and still enjoy yourself. It's not to do with poor performance it's more to do with enjoying yourself and you can't do that with your Grandad and Granny.
Any one under 30 is patronised, I went to a folk festival where Bellowhead were introduced with, " Nice to see the young folk trying hard"...
Peter

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 07 - 08:34 AM

Dave, I was trying not to get personal (there's been way, way too much personal abuse flung around on this thread already, much of it off-topic, and mostly by people who ought to have the intelligence to know better IMHO) and I'm certainly not looking to start a war of the kind I was dragged into by some nutter earlier. I guess it's an 'If the cap fits' thing, but I'm not going to point fingers at any individual, there are plenty of others setting themselves up as judge and jury over peoples' morals, or whether they have sufficient talent to be allowed to sing in public.

But I will never accept that someone who wishes to sing or play should have to jump through hoops, be 'judged' as good enough, or gain some sort of unofficial NVQ in Folk singing, before they are 'permitted' to perform by some kind of self-elected Folk-Simon-Cowells. Which is where some contributors would appear to want folk clubs to go. That route is the road to disaster.

It's just my opinion. It's not the assination of Archduke Ferdinand.

Peace,
BWM

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 May 07 - 06:27 AM

But what I am talking about is the kind of venue in which you can see an excellent performer at close range in a relatively informal setting

I couldn't agree more with that. It was certainly the sort of folk club I was weaned on and I would love to see it back. I suspect it has mostly gone for ever - hence this thread - and whilst I for one would love to see it back run by young people - I doubt (with some very honourable exceptions) if we will see it in such profusion. Even the smallest of venues - and ones where I can remember people performing without amplification, now use mikes.

Hence my suggestion that the collapse of folk clubs can be paralleled with the rise of folk rock and amplification. I suspect that has been replaced by the workshop and that is where such interaction now happens. Since I am not a singer or musician I don't often go to workshops - others would probably know better.

Sadly, it's already seen as that by some of the older generation (evidence a-plenty on this thread) who have either lost the real spirit of the music, or never understood it in the first place

I do sincerely hope I am not included in that. I go to a session once a week, sometimes more, I go to folk clubs, festivals, and folklore events. In the past two weeks I have been to one regular session and two informal ones that arose because a number of musicians were together; one decent sized festival; and I have been to an occasional folk club to see Frankie Gavin and Tim Edey. I intended to drive 100 miles to an annual event on Whit Monday but will probably not because of predicted bad weather. Next week has three events scheduled. And I shall be at the Gate to Southwell Festival the weekend after. I belong to and attend a traditional research group. I have discovered a tradition the only the participants were really aware of and spend six weeks before Xmas each year participating in the Sheffield carols often with visitors and often four times a week. I gave up performing Morris after 30 years (probably too long) when the knees went a few years ago. With the morris I went all over Europe performing and was lucky enough to share music with dozens of nationalities.

But by all means tell me what I don't understand about the real spirit of the music. I would be delighted to know what I am missing.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 27 May 07 - 05:38 AM

Folkiedave wrote: "I am not sure that we are being pushed into large concert venues as Brian suggests unless you are including festivals in this - I still see the small informal groups of people. I go to one each Monday evening, and this past week to another."

Well yes, Dave, I certainly was including festivals which - great entertainment and vibrant occasions though they are - are leaning more and more towards the large stage, the bright lights, and the performers on pedestals. Of course there are still many lively sessions, often attended by numbers of young musicians. But what I am talking about is the kind of venue in which you can see an excellent performer at close range in a relatively informal setting. It's often the best way to appreciate a soloist, and it has the additional, desirable effect of keeping the artist's feet on the ground. This is what the folk club setting has provided. Maybe it's just a historical artefact with no significance beyond the period 1960-2010, but that's what I grew up in and what I still believe in.

Melodeonboy wrote: "at the Greyhound Folk Club in Maidstone we have a bunch of young musicians who are not only bloody good at what they do, but who also appreciate being in a singaround setting and have sufficient humility not only to enjoy listening to and joining in with people who are significantly older than them, but who also indicate that they are willing to learn a thing or two from them."

On the nail, melodeonboy. The key word there is "humility". What all of us in this business need. Once you stop learning you are dead.

Dave: "I don't see a glimmer of hope for folk clubs unless young people start running them themselves."

Dead right. It's not for you or I to tell them what to do or how to do it. What *they* choose is what will happen.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Spidey Bobe
Date: 27 May 07 - 04:23 AM

35 days to smoke free folk clubs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 May 07 - 04:15 AM

Collapse of the Folk Clubs will ne'er come about,
But perhaps we should kick all the bad singers out.
Let's just perfect them with performers fine,
Who make no mistakes,...never forget a line.

Three cheers for the Countess, our online expert,
With manner accusing, outrageous and curt.
And a few who think Clubs should have standards so high,
But are really just reaching for pie in the sky.

Folk music has always been there for the Folk,
Not for great performers, oh what a joke.
Music by the people, for the people yes all!!
No matter if their talent is great or quite small.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 07 - 03:03 AM

If you are religious, then God's way.

Men are not gods. Not their job.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 07 - 03:01 AM

Oh yes there ARE people who do trad material well and are a pleasure to watch. I just don't think I do it very well. So it tends to be my shameful secret, that I keep in the woodshed.

If you can't remember the words or the tune of a song though, perhaps its Gods way of telling you not to perform it in public.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 07 - 02:44 AM

"If folk music is seen by the next generation of folk musicians as nothing more than a performance art then, to my mind, something is lost."

Sadly, it's already seen as that by some of the older generation (evidence a-plenty on this thread) who have either lost the real spirit of the music, or never understood it in the first place. They seem to forget that their be-pedestalled heroes were once inexperienced, nervous beginners trying out their first song on an audience for the first time (and who knows, maybe forgetting a word or two).

Anonymous GUEST - I seldom agree with anonymous GUESTs, but I'll make an exception this time. Well said.

wld - "I write and play trad material at home for fun, and to keep my playing technique together, but I just can't imagine anyone being entertained by it."

You should have heard the guy who came as a new visitor to our club on Friday night. He played a ship's harmonium and sang traditional songs, some of them being ones which, through over-exposure, have become a bit tedious, but his performance of them was like a breath of fresh air. Beautiful songs, beautifully sung and played. Magic!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 07 - 08:05 PM

Exactly guest. just cos somebody bores you -its no reason to write off a club. stick with it!

For me the writers of songs are the best thing to come out of the folk revival. And the famous ones you mention are okay - but the best ones never made it past the great years of pestilence and plague when professional folksingers were either traddies or comedians. A cursed time in our history.

Traditional material is okay, but you hear it; then you hear it with somebody using a funny guitar tuning and a funny voice, then someone with just the funny voice....after abit you get to appreciate the ones who forget the words - you're never quite sure which bit they're going to forget, and that adds a certain variety.

Whereas when someone writes a new song, well that's a new creation. It may be crap, but at least its new.

I write and play trad material at home for fun, and to keep my playing technique together, but I just can't imagine anyone being entertained by it.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 07 - 07:06 PM

My first folk club was Harry's (Clarendon Oxford Rd.) and then I was closely involved with Folk Union One in its early days when The Watersons turned professional. so I suspect I may have been spoiled. "A song I wrote myself" were words you rarely heard.

Yeah, I was around then, and I heard those words from Alex Campbell, Matt Mcginn, Ewan McColl, Ian Campbell, Leon Rosselson, Cyril Tawney,
Paul Simon, Ralph Mctell,and countless others. Maybe the words you rarely, or maybe didn't want to hear, were the words that set me afire.
You may not want the writers in "your" folk clubs but they were there then and they're there now and their work is a priceless legacy.
I find it so sad that the young people who come to some of you with their songs, immature and self-centered though they may be, are dismissed with such disdain, instead of being encouraged to broaden their vision and progress.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 26 May 07 - 06:36 PM

Well, I obviously work in a better class of folk club. maybe you should find them.
Baffled,
Wordy

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 May 07 - 06:10 PM

Would that there were more like them!

There are!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: melodeonboy
Date: 26 May 07 - 05:55 PM

I had a number of points to make on this thread, but Brian Peters has said most of what I wanted to say, and expressed it very clearly (probably more clearly than I would have done!). Thank you, Brian.

Concerning the number of young people involved in folk music, I believe that there are fewer than, say, a few decades ago, but there are still significant numbers out there. What is of some concern to me, is that many of them look at folk music in the same way that they would look at other styles of music, i.e. "stage" performance being the norm. Their reluctance to appreciate singarounds/sessions/non-amplified settings means they are missing out on what is for me a key aspect of the folk scene: the sense of community/comradeship/camraderie/call it what you will!

I perform regularly with a five-piece band with full PA system and I find it thrilling. However, I also spend a lot of time in sessions/singarounds/folk clubs which give me something that I can never get from a "gig". That special something is what singers/musicians/miners/farm labourers/the men on the Clapham omnibus/mariners etc. have, presumably, been experiencing for centuries and which I've tried to describe, possibly inadequately, above. Folk music is not only a matter of musical competence; it also has a context. If folk music is seen by the next generation of folk musicians as nothing more than a performance art then, to my mind, something is lost.

In spite of my concerns, I should tell you that at the Greyhound Folk Club in Maidstone we have a bunch of young musicians who are not only bloody good at what they do, but who also appreciate being in a singaround setting and have sufficient humility not only to enjoy listening to and joining in with people who are significantly older than them, but who also indicate that they are willing to learn a thing or two from them. Would that there were more like them!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 May 07 - 04:37 PM

How many people's hearts have ever sunk at the words "A song I wrote myself"? Mine invariably does........Sorry it is something I avoid if I can.

My first folk club was Harry's (Clarendon Oxford Rd.) and then I was closely involved with Folk Union One in its early days when The Watersons turned professional. so I suspect I may have been spoiled. "A song I wrote myself" were words you rarely heard.

I am not sure that we are being pushed into large concert venues as Brian suggests unless you are including festivals in this - I still see the small informal groups of people. I go to one each Monday evening, and this past week to another. Maybe we are lucky in Sheffield.

We are lucky in Sheffield there are plenty of sessions - but not much in the way of folk clubs. My objection to the unpractised singer is strictly limited to folk clubs - people (after a suitable amount of practice) do need somewhere in public to try out their skills and IMHO a session is a great place to do it. And there are young people there too.

I can remember one group - now national figures - who started singing in a not so well-attended sessions to see if their songs went well, trying their had at sessions in festivals, sang at sessions in the the National and then started getting festival bookings. They now tour Europe and the Americas.

I don't see a glimmer of hope for folk clubs unless young people start running them themselves. I see massive amounts of music around though, a lot of it played by young people and that is great.

And the shanty singers sound great Brian!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 26 May 07 - 04:07 PM

One of the worst musical events I've ever experienced (purely as an observer) was an 'Open Mike' at Club Passim in Boston, Mass. Every performer (and there were lots) was an angst-ridden singer-songwriter. Every singer without exception left immediately after their own performance, leaving the last out of the hat to finish off the night to a room entirely empty save for my companion and myself, who felt obliged to give the poor chap out support by staying to the bitter end.

I don't think it was an accident that the introspection of the songs coincided with a depressingly self-centred attitude towards the evening as a whole. As I said above, I believe in community music-making. This was the precise opposite.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 May 07 - 03:55 PM

I've been witness to the teenage angst thing too, in the past. It definitely gets very tedious and would not encourage me to return to any club that supported it. Even heard something similar, from a much older 'singer-songwriter' at Sharps last go there - he came in late, sang his song - sort of blues but more like musical dirge - and left after listening to one more performer. I don't think he was a regular and he got polite applause from the group but........

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 26 May 07 - 03:51 PM

"Boring the Arse off a Folk Club Audience..... for the higher grades you must attempt three slip jigs, a hornpipe and the Ballad of Tam Linn"

Well I have slip jigs, hornpipes and lengthy ballads (although not Tam Lin) in my repertoire, so I'm looking forward to WLD attending one of my gigs to give his assessment.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 07 - 03:42 PM

"in all my years working in folk clubs, certainly in the last ten or so I've never heard anyone sing "tedious, introspective, teenage angst ditties."

Well I bloody have. You obviously haven't been to enough clubs. Nowadays you can do an NVQ in Boring the Arse off a Folk Club Audience 101. Mind you for the for the higher grades you must attempt three slip jigs, a hornpipe and the Ballad of Tam Linn, and forget the tunes and most of the words.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 26 May 07 - 03:03 PM

>>. . . not to mention the Anahata/Mary Humphreys theme which seems to be emerging at nearly all points. Wonder why that is . . .

<<

Is it alright if they appear in June at Faldingworth Live, Countess Richard?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 26 May 07 - 02:58 PM

Not wishing to start another arguement, but in all my years working in folk clubs, certainly in the last ten or so I've never heard anyone sing "tedious, introspective, teenage angst ditties."
Are these just a figment of certain people's imagination, like arran sweaters are to journalists, or are they to be found in "sessions" which I never attend, or have I just been lucky? I would like a serious answer to this as I think these are the same people who are called "snigger/snogwriters" who I've also never seen, but who, because of people's lazy attitude of lumping things together, appear to have dragged some brilliant folk based songwriters down with them.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 26 May 07 - 02:56 PM

"If you mean lacking at at folk clubs I agree. Who wants to go and pay for a seat in a pub where anyone can just turn up and sing?"

Well maybe, Dave, but the lack of younger people in folk clubs seems to me to be, not so much a judgement of musical merit, but simply not feeling part of a community which is on average around thirty years older.

However, I can report that at Stockton Folk Club last Monday, in a addition to a generally enjoyable selection of floor performers and a lively instrumental session before the club proper began, there were three young male students from the local college who sang a shanty in three-part harmony with great gusto, and joined in enthusiastically with everyone else's choruses. And they weren't folkie offspring, either. Little glimmers of hope....

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 May 07 - 02:49 PM

Harry Boardman . . . the range of music covered was extremely eclectic

Yes indeed. It's a bit invidious to name clubs (well, I suppose to cite Harry's Manchester venues is OK since he is, sadly, no longer around), but that is surely the point: the people's music emanates from whatever grabs the people's attention at the time, what is relevant to their lives and means something. Yes, karaoke in the pub in the corner might be popular (it IS) but that is sad, symptomatic of a people who do not recognise that they even have a culture of heir own.

You could look at the Singers (not especially good at being all-encompassing at the time but it did TRY) and the later offshoot at the Knave of Clubs which certainly did manage to bring in some from the local community and involved the miners', building workers' and Northern Ireland struggles. And it was where I first met Charles Parker, and got involved in the salvaging of the Radio Ballads.

Then there is the Ryburn 3-step and the continuing Islington club, started by Bob Davenport and the Rakes in the mid-60s and running to this day in Clerkenwell. What it has always had is a house band (in common with Dingles in the 70s and Walthamstow today), and this is why it is so great. It's like that at the Lewes Royal Oak and I was just so astonished at the Snail's contribution about the Lewes Arms, whose workshops I have for too long intended to get to. I'm a little more cheered by Brian Peters' observations and will keep it on my list.

What I won't do is sit through tedious, introspective, teenage angst ditties or very, very poor renditions of songs or tunes that I love. The music, as Swarb famously said, may not mind. I do.

For an example of what English musicians today should be doing with music that is around them and will mean something to their peers (whether in the f*lk world or not) look no further than Simon Ritchie:

squeezebox schizophrenia

. . . not to mention the Anahata/Mary Humphreys theme which seems to be emerging at nearly all points. Wonder why that is . . .

Still, as Dave says above, young people are all over, mostly at the mo in Chippenham to which I am attempting to repair. Beats what's (mainly not) going on in most of the so-called 'clubs'.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 07 - 02:44 PM

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 May 07 - 02:05 PM

Heather was singing fine a couple of Xmases ago when she came to the Sheffield Carols but she doesn't sing much in this country working in New York as she does.

that it's the lack of the young that is the problem,

Let us just get this clear. There are plenty of young people in folk music, and I would guess that there are more now than there ever were.

If you mean lacking at at folk clubs I agree. Who wants to go and pay for a seat in a pub where anyone can just turn up and sing - I certainly don't and only visit clubs now where I can be assured that there is a good artist that I either know, or have heard of or have had recommended to me. We can hardly blame the young if they feel the same.

If you mean as artists - you should really take a look around at a festival these days, plenty of young people as artists. I was at a festival last weekend and the bill was chokker with young artists. onesomes, twosomes, threesomes, and foursomes, singers and instumentalists.

If you mean as participants - then there are plenty at festivals, at ceilidhs and at sessions.

A number are dancing morris and clog (my own morris team has just recruited a 21 year old lad, many morris teams are now recruiting young members). Unfortunately the majority of our offspring were daughters. As SCIORR (Irish dance) they have been appearing at festivals all over the world (South America and most European countries) for the past ten years. They have also done many UK festivals. They have developed their own routines and costumes.

http://www.sciorr.force9.co.uk/

Lack of young the problem? Sorry but I just do not see it.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 07 - 01:59 PM

"Jack Hudson is still rather good"

Always the master of understatement, Al! He's excellent, as you and I well know. A shame he's so carefully ignored to the self-elected 'cognoscenti' (who seem sometimes unable to recognise anything but the interior of their own ani).

IMHO of course. LOL!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 26 May 07 - 01:43 PM

Jim asked: "Is the Lewes club for which The Snail presented that depressing Q&A, the same one that holds ballad weekends? If so, it doesn't make sense."

Indeed it is, Jim, and it does make sense. I hosted one of those ballad workshops (one day only, actually) back in December, and corresponded with you and others about it on this forum. Several of the ballad workshop participants also sang at the Lewes Arms Folk Club, at which I was booked with Gordon Tyrrall, that same evening. From what you write of your likes and dislikes, I suspect you would have enjoyed thoroughtly at least some of the singers present.

Folkiedave's colourfully imagined "floorspot from Hell" had the unfortunate effect of backing Brian the Snail into a corner from which Jim and the rest of you won't allow him to escape. The fact is that the Lewes Arms folk club is one of the superior ones that I see in my travels, and the standard of floor performers there is well above average. They have a policy of allowing everyone who so desires, to perform one item each, so of course The Snail has to answer that, yes, those insensitive, incompetent and imaginary wankers would indeed be allowed their few minutes in the (metaphorical) spotlight. However, what seems to work in Lewes - admittedly a town where the number of active singers and musicians seems unusually high - is that the good singers tend by their example either to drag the poor ones up to their level or encourage the duffers to hold back.

Speaking as a lover of well-performed traditional song who shares Countess's scorn for the "anything's good enough for folk" attitude, I nonetheless find myself agreeing with the opposed views of Backwoodsman when he speaks about about "the people's music, sung and played for the joy it brings, by anyone who feels inspired to sing and play, in pubs, parlours and public and private places all over the land?" The folk scene (for want of a better phrase) seems at the moment to be drifting - or being pushed - into a circuit where relatively informal performances in small rooms by soloists or small groups, sharing music with a roomful of people many of whom are themselves contributing musically to the entertainment, are being superseded by concerts in which the audience/performer distance, the size of the bands, and the degree of musical sophisitication are all increasing to a degree where any sense of "community entertainment" is in danger of disappearing. I speak as one who plays right across that performance spectrum, but still feels great allegiance to the folk clubs in which I learned my own trade. Sometimes they disappoint me to the point of despair, but sometimes they fulfil my fondest dreams. They certainly won't continue indefinitely in their old format and with their existing, longstanding organisers. But let's not forget the context where this kind of music belongs, eh?

By the way Jim, since you mention Harry Boardman, I was for several years a resident at one of his clubs in Manchester, and while I can report that the standard of both residents and regular floor singers was as high as you might have expected, the range of music they covered was extremely eclectic and by no means confined to unaccompanied traditional singing. Which is partly why it was such a great club.

All the best,
Brian

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 07 - 11:23 AM

ah yes, those were the days..... just one train ticket for a family of nineteen to wipe their bums on. mind you we had it tough.

Jack Hudson is still rather good. A bit like one of these Sumo wrestlers - he just does the one thing excellently. Not that he's fat or anything. in fact he's tall and thin.

His last album was just him and the guitar - Ithink it was last year. Very good indeeed. You can get it from him (PM me for his number) or Woven Wheat.

He begged me not to put his name on Buster the Line Dancing Dog, but it has a real cult following. I got a lovely letter fan letter for Jack from a lady whose Line Dance team are called the ystalyfera Bootscooters (its near Swansea) - they have made up a dance to it called Busters Bonesearch!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 26 May 07 - 10:45 AM

Jack Hudson! I had forgotten him. He was good. Where is he now! I had an LP of his.
As this thread meanders on it becomes clear(ish) that it's the lack of the young that is the problem, we oldies only say "old such and such, I remember him (her)" The new breed are more high tec and expensive. No more is the Guest one guy, a guitar and a train ticket, and anyway who can afford a train ticket

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 07 - 08:07 AM

And Jack Hudson does it like no other! LOL!

Speaking of Jack - there's a top-notch performer for you who's treated like a pariah by the folk-nazis.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 May 07 - 08:06 AM

No, I took Heather Wood as an example of a singer who might have been excluded by those who insist on "standards". Her singing is a bit wobbly. Or at least some recordings are. But without her the Young Tradition (my absolute touchstone for forceful English harmony) would not have been what it was and the tradition that now includes their work (some of it was then contemporary) would be impoverished. I think she is wonderful. (I believe she now does a lot of filk, and one of her standards that no record company is brave enough to release is "The Wizard's Staff has a knob on the End", and another is "The Hedgehog can never be buggered at all").

None of these good things would have been if some policeman had said to her "You are not good enough, go away".   

Equally Peter Bellamy's low notes were almost wholly random, but somehow he found the key again on the way back up, every time. Should someone have said to him "Go away until you can sing in tune"?

Telling people they must go away does not create a thriving community.