Collapse of the Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 03:11 AM

Snail,
Do I really have to keep calling you that- seems very discourteous?
If we learned anything from collecting it was that singers come in all shapes, sizes and abilities, ranging from those who could sing well anywhere: be it the smallest folk club in Boggart Hole Clough, or a concert venue at The Royal Festival Hall; to those whose voice shook and who forgot the words if a single person with a tape recorder asked them to sing into a microphone. An example of the latter, a Travelling woman, certainly with interesting songs, told us "we don't sing those songs any more, we've been modernised", and spoke of "the shame of singing". Would it have been fair of us to ask her to perform at a club on the strength of her (father's) songs? We were very friendly with her and her family and she might well have agreed.
It should be remembered that nearly all the singers we recorded had never sung outside their own communities, some not even outside the circle of their own homes and families. The idea of singing to an audience of total strangers would have been an anathema to some of them. The way we worked with singers meant that we spent a fair amount of time with them, in one case over thirty years, and during that time we got to know them quite well; some we counted among our closest friends.
Ultimately, the decision to sing or not to sing always lay with the singers we met, but at the same time, we believed it to be our decision whether or not to exert any influence we might have had over them to persuade them to sing, particularly against their better judgement.   We believe it would have been extremely arrogant and unfair on our part to exert such influence.
Strangely enough, the only time the situation ever arose was with Walter Pardon. Walter was a superb public performer who set himself high standards (far higher than many revival singers if this and other threads are anything to go by) and was very self-critical of his own performance. At one stage of his life he told us that he no longer wished to perform publicly as he felt he could no longer do the songs justice and travelling was getting too much for him. A club organiser who had asked him to perform and had been refused, approached us to try and get him to change his mind. I wonder what you would have done in our situation!
"Pearls before swine".
The clubs have not always treated source singers and musicians as well as we believe they deserved. We were present one night at a London club, when an Irish flute player who had been recorded by the BBC, but was by then past his best, was totally humiliated by the residents, so much so that he quietly left half way through the second half of the evening without waiting for his booking fee.
I wonder who you consider to blame for the night Joe Heaney was booed off the stage by an audience when he appeared at a Clancy Brothers concert; the concert organiser, the audience or Joe for agreeing to sing in the first place!
Sorry for the delay in replying.
Jim Carroll VGC (Victorian Gentleman Collector).

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 07:00 PM

I am sorry that you did not feel welcome doing your own material in a folk club. I do not like people not to feel welcome wherever they go.

Why did you feel you material is appropriate for a folk club? Which is really the pertinent point. Would you be kind enough to tell us what you were singing and what instruments you were playing?

Clearly your material seems to be appropriate for the type of venue/"open mike" session you are now attending an good luck to you - you have all the support I can give you in that. I am delighted you have found a place where you feel happy to perform and where the audience is appreciative.

I am not sure why you think this type of venue might fail? No-one (as far as I know) on this thread is discouraging live performances and certainly not me. I am all in favour of them. I am delighted if a "live venue" succeeds and disappointed if they fail.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 06:52 PM

Guest Ian

Which town would that be (or has it been made a city now)?

If it's the place I'm thinking of the above will make sense and I may just know you.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,ian
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 06:46 PM

I have been in a position many times over the years to know how it feels not to be welcome doing my own stuff at a folk club.I swear,we are in lucky times that the moment.The lean towards everyone from Folk to Punk accepted on a music night is fantasic.The fact that many of these music lovers are prepared to jam or record together is amazing.i hope this is not happening just in my town,but in many places that encourage live performancies.All to soon it may end and go back to the acoustic sets of the few or the bedroom musician with nowhere to play coz they dont fit in.Open minds and the love of live raw music is alive and well here.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Harmonium Hero
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 06:13 PM

Thanks boys; the cheques are in the post (-mind you, the post isn't what it was...scope for a song there!). Glad I've got some friends out there. Regarding the lack of patter, I'm sure that when I start getting more regular dates (he said, dreamily), and can start to relax a bit more, I'll be full of it! Heard a good put down on the radio: "you've got more patter than a centipede with flip-flops". The song Dave was talking about is 'Andrew Rose'. It's a true story. Much of my material is either about, or based on, real people and real events, which is why I get so involved with the songs. I think it's wonderful that an 'ordinary' person can be remembered two or three centuries after their death, through a simple song.
I've just been ploughing through this thread, since WLD put me on to it. Amongst all the bickering and sniping, a few good points have been made, and I agree with some of them. A folk club used to be a good night out. Not just because the music was going through a fashionable phase - as the press keep telling us it is now, although I doubt whether many of the people writing this stuff have any real idea of what folk music is. (That question is a whole study in itself, but the point really is that the folk clubs are not what they were). I don't think it's a generational thing either, although this does have some bearing. There is a missing generation. Basically, it's the yuppy generation, who are not really interested in anything other than how well they are doing and how much money they have. No loss to us maybe, but it does leave a problematical gap between the old folkies (who were once the young folkies) and the current young folkies. Unfortunately, we live in a society where the young tend to be a bit shy - even wary - of the old. Not that 60 is old, but you know what I mean. So, although there is a young generation of singers, musicians and dancers, there is not enough contact between them and us. There shouldn't be a 'them and us', of course, but I think rhat will sort itself out in time. I could bang on for some time here (see what I mean about being 'full of it'?), but one point I would like to make is that the traditional format of resident group plus guest/floor singers worked. Having a resident who was of a sufficient standard to get paid for singing elsewhere, and would get up and do a spot each week, gave the club its identity and continuity. It didn't matter who the guest was, or how good the floor singers where, because the residents would build up a following who would turn up anyway. And I'm not the only person to have spotted the connection between the disappearance - to a large extent - of the traditional residents and the disappearance of the paying audience. I believe that the current fad (-I hope it's a fad or we're done for!) for singarounds as a general, rather than an occasional thing, is turning the folk clubs into something else. There's nothing in it for the punters; they want to see somebody up there doing a turn. Singarounds are for singers, and, incidentally, run the risk of developing into cliques. At the other extreme are the 'big name' clubs. This policy is unfair to performers who are trying to get established; how do you get to be a big name if you can't get bookings? You have to wonder how it would be for some of the established artists if they were starting out now. We'd probably never see them. Such a policy is also unfair to the smaller clubs who can't afford the aforementioned, and can only book unknowns who are not guarranteed to bring in enough of an audience to cover their fee. And it's also selling the punters short. Somebody said to me, discussing this about 25 years ago, "we get fed up seeing the same half-dozen big names all the time". Of course, we, the sigers, have the option of doing what singers used to do: we can start our own clubs. I'm thinking about it.......J.K.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 10:42 AM

Always happy to give credit when it's deserved Richard, and in this case it was very richly so. A very refreshing variation on the Trad theme, which even our non-traddie members thoroughly enjoyed. Can't wait to see him again, hopefully doing a couple of full sets. :-)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 09:39 AM

Richard, the inmates are allowed to complain.....

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 08:18 AM

How nice to have a mention on this thread of something that is right, rather than a million imagined and accusatory wrongs.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 08:07 AM

He came all the way from Wiggin to the Backwoods a couple of weeks ago (at least HE's not an opinionated snooty clown) and joined in our singaround at Gainsborough FC. What a lovely guy, what a great voice, what excellent playing. Hope Sooz books him SOON!

And he even forgot the words a couple of times - he's human, thank God!

He made a good night great. A real star.
BWM

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 07:59 AM

I think that may be the top and bottom of it WLD - John realy puts his heart and soul into it and, as you say, almost 'method acts' the characters. He does have the uncanny knack of bringing the stories and therefore the songs to life. Did he do that song about the poor bugger who was flogged to death in the Navy? Is it Andrew something? One of the few times a traditional song has left me realy angry about events of the past! The harmonium is such an unusual accompanying instrumnet as well and John is one of those quiet unassuming characters that tends to jst get on with things while the rest of us are still thinking about it!

Anyway - I'll not hijack the thread any more. Do as WLD says and get to see or listen to him. If there were more like that on the 'scene' maybe traditional folk clubs would be more popular:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 06:28 AM

John Kelly hasn't got a website yet, but he was telling me he has got together a demo cd for interested people who have a traddy type club and they want a bit of quality. I would advise you to book this guy while you can afford him, why not at least give him a listen:-

his e-mail is
[e-mail]

he is based in Wigan.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 06:15 AM

must say I quite like the brief introductions and lack of 'patter'

Well maybe so. i personally find it rewarding to have a little background information - because I have listened to these songs and hated them and frankly my heart has sunk when someone has said they were going to sing them. When they are done well though - they pull their weight as performance pieces.

It would be good to know from someone like John (who presumably has been hanging round folk clubs and heard all the shit half remembered versions even more times that I have!) just what energises HIS connection with the song, and provides the vision to work that hard at perfecting his version.

Its rarely the poetic content, the historical facts are frequently boring - presumably he identifies with the person telling this story - almost like a soliloquy in a play. I suppose its a bit like method acting.....d'you think?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 05:46 AM

Did he not bring his guitar along WLD? Pity - he is good with that as well. We have him on at our club regularly and he dances for various morris teams I have some association with. I like to consider him a friend. I am sure he would not mind me saying that in the last couple of years he has come on in leaps and bounds as he now has much more time to concentrate on his music. It was a real drag when I had to leave halfway though his last show because I needed to set of for Newcastle at some ridiculous hour the next morning:-(

I must say I quite like the brief introductions and lack of 'patter'. His songs usualy tell their own stories and his talent at performing them is as much as he needs realy. I am sure that if anyones introduction to traditional music was through John they would be hooked straight away and I only wish that the media would would portray traditional arts and artists like John rather than the stereotype village idiot they usualy show!

I'm jelous of his hair and beard as well:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 05:19 AM

I was chatting a long time to John - trying to make suggestions I hoped were helpful - but asking me about traddie stuff is like asking the Pope about contraception.

He was great - stuff like The lakes of Ponchartrain and Polly on the Shore that you have heard attempted by all the worlds biggest gits and aphasic amnesiacs - done absolutely faultlssly as though they were written yesterday. A beautiful tenor voice and lots of little folk baroque (almost Jansch like) ornamentations from the harmonium.

He really has got his shit together musically. Apparently he plays guitar as well. Its so refreshing. He hasn't got a website. So often nowadays, people have all the apparatus in place but none of the substance. I wish he'd have said some stuff to introduce his material - he was very full on. But that was just cos I wanted them to like and understand him.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 04:43 AM

John Kelly's great isn't he WLD? Little known fact - He is the only person known to have danced Abram morris in cowboy boots - I am looking forward to seeing if he does the same this year:-)

The open mic night did not have ANY teen diary entries at all and was very enjoyable. Steve even did 'Lady Elenor' - Keeping in touch with his past I guess. Everything was ready prepared and the host even helped a performer tune his guitar in the 'wings' before going up to the mic. Good sized, light and airy public room with a bar. Needed the PA realy as many of the people were there to chat and meet as well as for the music. I did have reservations and when I saw two young 'hippies' (listen to me I used to be one!) I thought they were grounded, but they were just there to listen. All in all, well worth a visit and I will be back:-)

I don't realy travel far for my music - I just happen to live in Swinton every weekend and work in Newcastle Monday to Friday.

I think we are all pretty much agreed that the main thing is the continuation of the music. Sorry if I gave anyone the impression that I feel there is a LOT of dross - There isn't and I have never said so. There is a bit and unfortunatley they are the ones that most people remember. You know the old saying? If you are happy with something you will tell a friend. If not you will tell a dozen - I think it's true. All we are in disagreement about is how we handle it and I think we can all live with that - Whatever works for you. All I can add is that Swinton Folk Club is in it's 25th or so year so it obviously works for us!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 01:33 AM

Seems like he had other areas less well known

TV The Pyrates

and

Capital Radio's Sarah and Friends (with Lea Nicholson and members of Fairport Convention)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:33 PM

Lea Nicholson sings too.
Did God Bless The Unemployed
And lots of stuff with Robin Dransfield.
Ask Will'n'Dan.
At one time he was a stalwart of The Enterprise, Chalk Farm, but comes originally from Rawtenstall, Lancs.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:26 PM

Diane

My pals wot plays squeezy things may know yer man bu I'm afraid I don't.

Cos I's a singist not a muso.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:17 PM

Yes, well.

I stayed in mostly, only going for a swift pint at the pub on the corner.
Then I looked at the 'Seriously demented box-squeezers' thread and posted Lea Nicholson's Concertina Record (you Sussex people surely know him from when he was a student there).

Now I'm playing along on recorder to the 4th Brandenburg. I think my evening sounds better.

The Concertina Record

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 07:55 PM

Diane will love this.

Went a "new" clubby thing tonight.

Found it was the usual bunch of people pumping out the same old stuff that they always do at the other things they have on other night.

There was was just one exception (not me).A dear friend who managed to sing a couple of lovely Nancy Griffiths songs on a borrowed guitar.

Might go again just to hear that lady (and her sister who is a closer friend) do some more of the same from those two.

The rest I gave up on years ago. I use their events a rehearsal time and try out new stuff of mine on them. They don't see what it is I'm doing and it's only for my sake that I do it( is it sounding right to me?)

OK I know that I am playing the wrong game but they are asking for it.


Yes Diane it was a nasty room downstairs in the basement/cellar and all the things you dislike are included in what they do.

But, in a fairer state of mind, if they didn't do their thing in their space I might have to deal with them in places where better things occur.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 07:27 PM

Saw a good trad singer tonight in Mansfield - John Kelly of Wigan accompanying himself on the harmonium. Look out for him.

You might not wish to see some of the things you see in folk clubs - but its good for you - stretches your horizons - stops you from being an opinionated old fart who thinks he knows everything.

If all you want to hear is your prejudices confirmed - stick to watching Question Time - that gang of clowns have no option other than to keep trotting out the same old cliches to their fans.

Surely that's the saving grace of the folk clubs - a large measure of artistic freedom that the performers have - being outside the normal music industry. Of course freedom is not absolute and human nature being what it is, some people will abuse freedom.

However its that freedom which gives us the humanity of this institution that so many of us love.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: treewind
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:42 PM

Child? Hammond? Sharp & Karpeles? Jim Carroll's recordings? Each other?

In theory, yes, but in practice it seems to be mostly the professional folkies (the ones who use traditional material, anyway) that consult these sources. Your average session singer or folk club floorspotter learns their songs from the recordings made by the "professionals"

You don't usually see guest performers standing up and saying "I got this next one off a Martin Carthy/Steeleye Span/Fairport/Kate Rusby/[whoever] album..." Of course if they do a song written by someone within living memory they will credit the songwriter (if they've got any clue) but they'll probably do a quite different interpretation that makes it their own.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:27 PM

Anahata

Sorry I didn't respond to your earlier post. I'll concede that there may always have been a professional element in traditional music but that's a whole other thread.

My main concern is that the whole modern folk scene is held up by huge numbers of amateurs who give their time freely to run clubs festivals and everything else. I don't feel that the professionals are entitled to demand a living off that. I don't begrudge it them and I am enormously grateful to them for doing it and will continue to pay my whack to see them (you). I just don't feel it's theirs by right.

The truth is, both groups need each other.

I can't help feeling the professionals need the amateurs more than the other way round. Without the pros, you might lose the big festivals but the music would carry on in some form.

If there were no professionals, there'd be far less recording and dissemination of material - (where would people learn their songs from?)

Child? Hammond? Sharp & Karpeles? Jim Carroll's recordings? Each other? If contemporary professionals become the prime source, the tradition will lose contact with its roots.

Of course Bob and Gill Berry deserve a decent rate but that's a matter of market negotiation. How about a campaign for full time salaries from the Arts Council for festival organisers?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:08 PM

Fokie Dave
>>But I do not want to put my cash into hearing people I have no desire to hear.<<

I don't think many people do, these days.

Snail
>>But I do not want to put my cash into hearing people I have no desire to hear.<<

Glad we agree on something :-)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:00 PM

The Villan

But its still folk music thats put on.

Faldingworth Live is a concert style club.

Hmmm. We're not going to get into definitions of what a folk club is are we? My perception is a more social event where floor spots are definitely part of the deal but I'm not going to go to the baricades over it.

As so many have already said, it doesn't matter what you do as long as you promote live music and if it brings people in to listen who then get hooked on folk music, then so much the better.

Here, here. As I have been saying all along, they are all part of the spectrum from jamming in someone's kitchen to the Albert Hall.

By the way - you're not one of the surviving Famous Mollusc Twins - the one that evaded the slug pellets....

Been on the run for years. Gone about three feet so far.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 01:55 PM

naming names, Martin Carthy and Tom Paley have raised tuning to an art form.

Well I have seen Martin three times in the past month and never noticed him tuning his guitar. A long time since I saw Tom Paley - but I don't particularly remember him as an incessant tuner. But it was a while ago.

Let me try and get this in some sort of perspective. (Again)

The subject is the collapse of folk clubs.

I, along with others listed a number of reasons, loss of rooms for premises, overcharging by breweries, to me the electrification of performances was important and so on.

I said I stopped going unless there was a professional act I wanted to see because there was a lot of people singing in clubs that I didn't want to see. I used to put up with this years ago because in those days there seemed to be a chance of seeing someone good. Nowadays there doesn't seem to be on the occasions when I have been. I can suggest reasons for this, but at the moment that is a diversion.

Now that is why I as a very keen lover of traditional music stopped going to folk clubs.

I haven't stopped going to sessions (two in the last four days) which is where I think people ought to practice and get used to an audience, and I haven't stopped going to festivals.

But I do not want to put my cash into hearing people I have no desire to hear.

Now I suggest there are others who have stopped going to clubs for much the same reasons as I did. Some of those have totally given up on folk music because for them a singers club is their only option.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 01:50 PM

"if it brings people in to listen who then get hooked on folk music, then so much the better."

Yes

Do whatever you think is right in this context but do watch the results and be prepared to change your approach if the need should arise.

It's for the people on the ground to decide if their contribution is working or not but listening to other ideas may help if things are not as good as they could be.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 01:27 PM

Snail - take my word for it - its a club, I've been there.

Its in the arse end of nowhere - deepest Lincolnshire, protected by speed cameras at every approach - so its a very exclusive club - don't reckon your chances of getting invited!

I met one guy who reckoned his satnav said,..... let me off this one.

By the way - you're not one of the surviving Famous Mollusc Twins - the one that evaded the slug pellets....

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 01:19 PM

The Snail

>>That's not a folk club, it's a concert. <<

But its still folk music thats put on.

As so many have already said, it doesn't matter what you do as long as you promote live music and if it brings people in to listen who then get hooked on folk music, then so much the better.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: treewind
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 01:18 PM

Les, I don't know what point you're trying to make, but your web site clearly shows support acts for each date. Your support acts are booked ahead of time (and listed on the web site)

Perhaps you meant you don't put on floor singers - different terminology meaning someone who (usually) just turns up on the night and does a song or two. I know you don't do that at Faldingworth Live.

Hitchin Folk Club does main act + support only, so does Cambridge when it's not an "open stage" night, so do many others but they still call themselves folk clubs.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 01:14 PM

Breton Cap

There is also the thing at The Hobgoblin in London Road Brighton - Young Alex the fiddler

AH yes. It's good to see young people starting new clubs. http://www.myspace.com/brightonfolkclub
They've got Anna Tabbush next Tuesday. It's a pity they call their non-guest nights Irish Sessions, Brighton has plenty of those. Something a bit more general would have been nice.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:48 PM

Ian Fyvey at the Round Georges Sutherland Road Brighton.

There is also the thing at The Hobgoblin in London Road Brighton - Young Alex the fiddler

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:08 PM

Breton Cap
A "new" song based (they say) session over the other side of town if I feel like it tonight.

Where/who is that Dave? Not that I can go, I'm going to the John Harvey Tavern tune session in Lewes.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:05 PM

The Villan

I put concerts on, on a Saturday evening. I do not put support acts on, as I beleive that people come to see the main act.

That's not a folk club, it's a concert.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:04 PM

Dave Polshaw

Hey - It worked, Dave! Don't knock my sales technique;-)

Too many Captains, too many Daves. No wonder this submarine is in trouble.

I am a bit surprised that you chose to translate 'anything could, and often did, happen' as 'what is going on here is a load of crap'. Everyone else I explained it to seemed to have no dificulty in understanding it to mean there may be some rough with the smooth. I think most people were glad that they took the chance but, what the hack, we are not all the and if it would have put you off then it is no skin off my nose:-)

Just a little hyper bowl. You did seem to imply you were warning people off. Never apologise for folk music.

People have paid to see a particular artist and I do not believe that we should impose our particular tastes on 'paying guests'.

Whyever not? The booked artist is to our particular taste. We're running a folk club, not a profit making business. We're putting on what we want to hear and hoping that others will want to hear it too. Experience suggests they do.

In making a decision as to who is on, is it not only fair that those who have done their homework and practised are rewarded while those who do not know the words and have not tuned their instruments go to the end of the que?

Naming no names, I've heard professionals fluff their lines and , naming names, Martin Carthy and Tom Paley have raised tuning to an art form. Should they be banned?

I have looked briefly through the thread again and could not spot anyone advocating that poor performers should not be allowed on a singers night or at an informal session. Can you give me an example?

Oh dear. It's a long, long thread and a fairly depressing experience looking through it for examples. I'll just say that Jim Carroll seems to be saying that nobody should perform in front of any sort of audience, paying or not, till they've achieved some required standard, Folkiedave says that he doesn't go to singarounds because even one bad singer is enough to spoil the whole thing and Diane Easby (as far as I can make out) thinks that performances should be either professional standard or free in the public bar with nothing in between.

And surely, if newcomers to the 'scene' are kept informed, in the manner I suggested, the conflict between the people who want only the best and those that are more forgiving would not happen would it?

Not sure what this means. We advertise our programme. The paying public makes its choices.

There is plenty of room for everyone and every style. It just seems a pity that the poor performers do seem to add to the caricature image of folk singing that the popular press seem to love! Maybe if everyone was honest enough to admit that there is some dross out there we could formulate a better way out?

You seem to think that the folk clubs are awash with poor performers, drowning in dross. This is not my experience.

Sorry - forgot to add the the very first people we drop in the event of too many singers are us - the residents!

As DAVE said, same here.

Thinks, might change my nickname to Captain Dave.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:00 PM

"Monkseaton arms near Whitley Bay"

Just realised that's over beyond Newcastle upon Tyne.

An awful long way from Swinton.

You seem to travel for your art. Or am I misunderstanding something.


Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:26 AM

"I'm going to an 'open mic' night"

A "new" song based (they say) session over the other side of town if I feel like it tonight.

May check it out I think I know who is running it and I'm not too impressed with what he has done eleswhere.

Hmm time for more missionary work? Dunno

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:14 AM

Oh - and thanks for spotting it. Because I just picked up on the 'Folkiedave' comment it looks like the whole post was for him - It wasn't, it was indeed for Bryan.

:D

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:11 AM

Dave the Hat (If I can borrow Dianes term:-) )

To further confuse the issue after 2 pints of of Hopbacks it was Bryan I was adressing but his comment said my sales technique would put off Folkiedave. So even though it was for Bryan, Dave was mentioned, but it was not you! Good job I have not some beer as well or I would be even more confusing!

As they used to say in 'Soap' - Confused? You will be...

I'm going to an 'open mic' night for musicians and songwriters tonight at the Monkseaton arms near Whitley Bay. It is run by Steve Dagget who used to be in Lindisfarne apparantly. Wonder if I need to take my own razor blades? Not that I have any idea that it may be full of angst ridden teen diary songs...:-P

Good job I don't have broadband in my flat or may be posting after a few pints myself:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:11 AM

"Don't knock my sales technique;"

Sorry didn't think I had.

Was it Bryan(The Snail) you're thinking of?

Dave
(after bangers and mash and 2 pints o' Summer Lightning)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:02 AM

"very first people we drop in the event of too many singers are us - the residents!"

Snap

Dave
back from lunch!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:34 AM

I put concerts on, on a Saturday evening. I do not put support acts on, as I beleive that people come to see the main act.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:19 AM

Sorry - forgot to add the the very first people we drop in the event of too many singers are us - the residents!

D.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:12 AM

Hey - It worked, Dave! Don't knock my sales technique;-)

I am a bit surprised that you chose to translate 'anything could, and often did, happen' as 'what is going on here is a load of crap'. Everyone else I explained it to seemed to have no dificulty in understanding it to mean there may be some rough with the smooth. I think most people were glad that they took the chance but, what the hack, we are not all the and if it would have put you off then it is no skin off my nose:-)

On Guest nights we get put on no more than 3 singers and the opening 'residents', each doing, usualy, 2 songs. People have paid to see a particular artist and I do not believe that we should impose our particular tastes on 'paying guests'. In making a decision as to who is on, is it not only fair that those who have done their homework and practised are rewarded while those who do not know the words and have not tuned their instruments go to the end of the que?

On singers nights we not try and get as many singers on as possible. We get on all singers - even if it takes till midnight!

I have looked briefly through the thread again and could not spot anyone advocating that poor performers should not be allowed on a singers night or at an informal session. Can you give me an example? And surely, if newcomers to the 'scene' are kept informed, in the manner I suggested, the conflict between the people who want only the best and those that are more forgiving would not happen would it?

There is plenty of room for everyone and every style. It just seems a pity that the poor performers do seem to add to the caricature image of folk singing that the popular press seem to love! Maybe if everyone was honest enough to admit that there is some dross out there we could formulate a better way out?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:49 AM

Folkiedave
The corollary to what you are saying seems to indicate that if the collector is not going to bring them (live) to a wider public then they should not be recorded. I cannot believe that you think that.

I'm glad you don't believe that because I was saying precisely the opposite.

to criticise him and Pat as Victorian gentleman (and woman) collectors is plain wrong.

I don't believe they are which is why I found what Jim said so shocking.
I'd rather not discuss this further until he has the chance to reply.

I'd also like to thank him for his polite reply when I could find no way of saying what I felt without being rude to him. Many on this list could take a lesson from that.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:36 AM

Dave Polshaw
I would honestly explain to any new face at the door that it was a singers night and that anything could, and often did, happen.

Salesman of the year. "I must explain that what is going on in here may be absoloute crap so think very carefully before parting with your 50p."
It would certainly put off Folkiedave.

If we put 2 floor singers on in each half, say 2 15 minute spots

But just when and how would you put them on? During a Martin Carthy concert with 50 paying?

We generally give shorter spots and get more people on. Obviously exactly what happens depends on the circumstances. Concertina ceol said we had seven on Spiers and Boden's night; I wasn't counting. That was out of about 30 potential floorsingers out of an audience of 50. Choices have to be made but not by looking at the list and crossing out the no hopers. Two were people we had booked in the past and one we've got coming in a few weeks. I think the others were all visitors one or two of which we had never heard before.

On less star studded nights we try to get as many as possible on. This is what the argument is really about. There are some on this list who seem to be arguing that nobody should even be allowed into a singers night until they have passed some sort of quality test.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:34 AM

The one I wear in the summer is Greek too.

I actually have 3 or is it 4 that I wear and put through the wash in rotation.

Dave

but it's Lunch(Brunch)time

see ya later

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:32 AM

"It was the club: the hostile, cliquey regulars, the vile floorspots, the bleedin' raffle, the horrible pub, the lack of atmosphere, the bossing around and unfunny patter from the MC . . ."

OK so that club has got it wrong but there are places (other the ones I go to) where Jon and John go down well and the Clubby bits around it are not off putting for newcomers.

Did you know the club before you went with your guests or were you a newcomer to the club as well?

Oh and "bleeding raffle" ? they are a necessary evil in many cases (additional source of cash) I'm afraid.

Dave
Off to the pub for Lunch (bangers and mash and a couple of pints of Summer Lightning should hit the spot.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:30 AM

We are Dave, and you would be welcome. Bring your hat along and I will wear my greek one:-)

It will be either the last Saturday in October or the one before - Depending when Whitby Goth Weekend is. Now, where have I seen a Goth link in this thread before..?

Sunday lunchtime is hangover cure and survivors workshop with lots of beer and chat about what was good and bad. We sometimes get around to the odd song or two as well:-)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:13 AM

'Ere I is usually up for an all day sing (we have un in Sussex every January)

I imagine you are the Swinton near Manchester which is a bit a way to come otherwise I might well turn up sometime.

Dave