Collapse of the Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:54 PM

As for 'the tradition', it survived before folk clubs and I'm certain it will even if they disappear altogether

Hurrah, yes.
Course it will.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:51 PM

George, I agree with both conclusions and neither particularly bothers me.
It's unimportant.
And it was me who said the 60s-stylee fixed format 'f*lk club' had long passed its sell-by.
For me (and anyone who cared to look), music was always there and the 'clubs' came later.
They were but a fashion, like tank tops and flares.
And the music is still here and will continue to be.
It's survived more than teenage diary crap and out-of time bodhrán bashers in the past.

(That wasn't me, I'm not here . . . )

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: shepherdlass
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:47 PM

I've avoided posting on this thread because I came to it late and was wary of the increasingly personal comments therein but, for what it's worth, two suggestions:

1. Internecine squabbling of the type we've seen above can be very unattractive to some of those new to the music. It may have discouraged some of the more tentative participants. However, ugly as it can be, many people love it (why do you think the NME and the tabloids used to report every bust-up between the Gallagher brothers?) ... it could actually be a selling point, so it seems an unlikely reason for the mutation of the folk clubs into another beast.

2. The first post in the thread made an entirely sensible suggestion: the folk club generation had kids and took them to more family-friendly festivals. The kids grew up and many became players, but more often in the kind of sessions that they were introduced to at said festivals, rather than the folk clubs which excluded them because they were in an almost exclusively adult environment. Between these two generations, there was something of a 'lost-to-folk generation' for whom home-made music meant forming a punk band or putting together samples on a computer were perfectly valid alternatives. It was still 'the people's music' even if it wasn't traditional.

As for 'the tradition', it survived before folk clubs and I'm certain it will even if they disappear altogether: the particularities of venues matter less than that spaces to perform are available in some form or other.

Is that a bit 'Pollyanna'? Probably, but there's good evidence on which to base such optimism: traditions exist because they live and continue and HAVE lived and continued (often for centuries), not because there's one particular outlet in which they can be protected. Change happens - why not enjoy the ride?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:38 PM

DOn't ask me what I meant by "inevtibaly" - I have forgotten by now! Must have been inevitably, I guess...

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:36 PM

OK, that was a rhetorical question. You know - a palindrome.

I just scanned the whole thread, and already I forgot who it was further up that said something about the clubs being a "fashion" (my word with a shelf-life. But it got me thinking that we have two worlds mixing here: The world of folk clubs of whatever persuasion or format, a phenomenon that began in the 60s or thereabouts, with a "generational" feel about it at times, which are inevtibaly linked to the world of entertainment, professional or not; and the world of folk music, independent of clubs, with its afficionados and supporters for its own sake, independently of the world of entertainment.

There is of course overlap. Myself, I first joined a club and as a result got interested in folk music and tried to find out a few more things about it. I would not call myself an "afficionado", as the word implies more knowledge than I believe I have, but rather an "enthusiastic follower". Countess, from things you said above I believe the process was more the other way round for you - the music was always there, clubs came later. People like that may well be in a minority to be treasured (quick, get the glass cabinet and the lock - no, we don't need the key! - joke), as the natural passing-down of music and traditions seems to become rarer by the year in this crazy world.

Perhaps the clubs are like the appendix and will eventually become extinct. Or they will mutate, out of a need to have entertainment of one sort or another. And in doing so they may well move further away from folk. My point being that collapse of the clubs (if it happens) does not equal collapse of folk music; and conversely, survival of the clubs, especially if they have to mutate, would not necessarily mean survival of folk music. Yet we have been discussing them here as if the two are forever linked. This is not so, I argue.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:25 PM

No, course not.
Plus ça change.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:16 PM

Just back. Have I missed anything? :-)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 May 07 - 02:54 PM

Two much (sic), man . . .

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 07 May 07 - 02:44 PM

Oh Dear, Oh dear, Oh dear. I have tried to follow this thread, and even add to it, to find the answer to the original question " why the collapse of folk clubs" I think the reason has become clear. There are two many self opinionated people with axes to grind. Get a life and enjoy what is on offer. There is room for all types of "folk" music/open mike/singaround. Just have fun with like minded people. Spread the word that home made music is fun. At the aformentioned club in Wimbourne anyone is welcome to have a go and we will listen. If certain names in this (and other) threads (you know them) spent more time enjoying their music they would not need to expend so much vitriol on line.

KEEP FOLK MUSIC FRIENDLY Love thy fellow folker

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 May 07 - 02:14 PM

Jack Campin is perfectly capable of responding to posts (or not) as he wishes without prompting from anonymous Guests, thankyewmuchly.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 07 - 02:06 PM

Over to you, Jack.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 May 07 - 11:25 AM

I said I'd gone, but I have to tell Jack Campin that he cannot be fucking serious. You know damn well that's nothing like what I want a venue to be be like and that I never go within a million miles of THAT sort of set-up (I'll refrain from naming any of them). It's exactly what I deplore. But if anyone wants to go to them, just go right ahead and be assured you won't find me there.

The OP is talking about old-style, 'traditional' (in the sense of what developed in the 1960s) CLUBS with a set format, and he was perfectly clear about that. Anybody with half a brain is aware that the session scene is very far fom collapsing and is thus not under consideration in this thread. Sessions did not undergo a revival, they've always been there, according to my grandfather who first took me to one in about 1958 which he's been attending since before WWI. And as any fule kno, the standard today is way, way above how it was when I first started. Frighteningly so.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 May 07 - 11:11 AM

Same goes for around here (the Lothians). There's no clear dividing line between folk clubs and sessions. Edinburgh and Leith FCs are clearly on the full-on folk club side (main act taking up most of the evening with floor spots from friends of the committee before), everybody else is like what Tootler describes.

I'm not very interested in venues where there's a committee applying "quality" standards of the sort Diane seems to want. It usually stops anything really startling from happening, obliterates traditional content and leaves you with a bunch of singer-songwriter material favoured by the committee and their friends.

This is particularly important when trying to get the very old to perform. They can often pull off quite astonishing things but no way are they going to send in a demo CD first. In a session-like scene where performances can range from the mindblowing to the toecurling, they can suddenly come out with things you would never hear anywhere else.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Tootler
Date: 07 May 07 - 10:35 AM

I don't think we were talking about singarounds and sessions in this thread but venues where punters pay.

Are you sure? You may be, but are others?

In "Folk Roundabout" our regional directory of Folk Clubs and other Folk Music Activities in the North East, the main activity of a substantial majority of folk clubs who are listed is the singaround. Some are concert only, but the most common pattern seems to be a weekly singaround with a guest night roughly once a month.

It seems that there are some unstated assumptions about what a folk club is that may have led to some misunderstandings, though that in no way excuses the downright rudeness that have characterised some of the posts on this thread.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Guest.
Date: 07 May 07 - 07:57 AM

Clubs for wimmin sometimes seems like a good idea...   calm down, it's only a flaming paragram!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 May 07 - 07:28 AM

Quite, anonymous Guest.
Hard to know why I bothered to try and explain to such non-respecters of our cultural heritage, and who care less.
Their idea of 'a good time' is abhorrent: ogling women and murdering tunes, then 'justifying' it with their patronising, baying, harassing claptrap.
Would that such behaviour be confined to behind the well-shuttered doors of their cliquey, raucous, outmoded, social (social?) gatherings they call 'clubs'.
Shame that the few that actually do disseminate f*lk arts in the community are tarred with the horrendous image that most of these so-called clubs, largely richly earned, have among the population at large.
Outta this thread before one of them comes along to quote from their whingeing, angst-ridden overgrown teenage diary (out of tune natch . . . )

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 07 - 07:01 AM

"And what prats you have made of yourselves"

??

Eye of the beholder and Pots and Kettles spring to mind

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 May 07 - 05:58 AM

Jim Carroll said much earlier of the clubs:

they fell into the hands of people who don't like or understand folk music

Yes, they did. He departed on holiday so I said:

Chaps, you'll just have to scream at me instead

And you did.
And what prats you have made of yourselves.
Thanks to those who broadly agree with my experience, because they were there too, some of whom have met me on the way and haven't seen the need to bombard me with ludicrous assumptions and patronising sexist crap.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 07 - 05:17 AM

You lot need to get out more.........................

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 May 07 - 04:50 AM

How do you know how well or otherwise I can play or sing?

Tootler, I don't but next time I'm in Newcastle I might find out if I can work out who you are. This is far from the point. What I was saying about bashing out any old shit cos it's 'good enough for f*lk' is an all-too-common damaging attitude which constitutes just one strand of what has gone wrong with the 'clubs'. Those who advocate such lack of respect for the music know who they are, or would if they acknowledged just how counter-productive what they laughingly term 'inclusivity' is. If elitism = excellence, long live elitism.

These days you'd be hard put to find me in a club at all, so no need to worry much about bumping into me. There are other, infinitely preferable places. This year I have been to just two clubs (and two of the best in the land at that) yet was still subjected to crap floorsingers. I don't think we were talking about singarounds and sessions in this thread but venues where punters pay. Everyone has to start somewhere and the informal session is more like where a first effort should be tried out. Even so, I'll repeat, DON'T sing or play out till you can. Only you and your bedroom walls should witness the agonised practising, duff notes and forgotten lyrics. Not punters in a public place.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Steve-Cooperator
Date: 07 May 07 - 04:40 AM

Before going back to the original subject - the 'collapse' of folk clubs, is it possible for those who are using the thread for a slanging mtch to learn how to use email, so that those of us with an interest in the subject don't have to wade through reams of private correspondance aire din public to find the postings on the subject....

Anyway, I started going to clubs in London in 1980, and from my exerience the largest contributing factor was problems with the venue.

The first club I went to, the hammersmith Folk Club, at the Kings Head , Fulham had to compete with a rock band in the bar below, the sound (racket) permeating up into the room above...

The first club I was involved with running the landlord made it clear thatthe club was not welcome by keeping the heating turned off.

Another club in Chiswick which had a seperate room had problems with very loud juke boxes which would get turned up throughout the evening in the main bar, started hiring out the room for private functions on the first week each month, then later other nights at short notice ( not very helpful when there is a guest booked), and the last straw putting up the room hire charge.

Another great club in Richmond (Bull and Bush). Big name guest ewvery week and often a full house was closed due to 'fire regulations', even though the room had a fire exit.

On the singaround scene, two clubs I used to go to kept moving with changes of landlord/menu, as portrayed in Gerry Milne's song "The Landlord Got Moved by the Brewery"

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Tootler
Date: 06 May 07 - 07:55 PM

I agree with melodeon boy. I go to three local folk clubs regularly plus a couple of sessions and also go the Folkworks Caedmon classes at the Sage in Gateshead - CR please note, to improve my playing, I do not wish to bash out "any old shit". I find the people I have met their to be as friendly a group as you can meet anywhere.

The attitude of the organisers is to encourage people to participate and a good effort receives applause even if it is a little shakey. The clubs I go to are about participation so anyone who turns up and wishes to sing or play, can. Even so I see little evidence of the so-called "dross" that was referred to earlier. The vast majority of those who attend regularly are at least competent musicians and many are excellent and I am sure all wish to give a good performance when it is their turn.

The songs that are sung are a pretty fair mix of traditional and recently composed material, the latter being mostly by songwriters who have come out of the folk scene. There are one or two who write their own material and good luck to them. I hear little evidence of the "teenage diary" songs and, anyway, songwriters need to develop their craft somewhere.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: melodeonboy
Date: 06 May 07 - 07:13 PM

Jeri: I'm pleased to tell you that, in my experience, some of the contributors to this thread (and one in particular!) are not typical of the people you find in folk clubs.

I go to two folk clubs regularly, and to others in the area from time to time. The vast majority of folkies that I come across at the pubs and clubs are friendly, easy-going, tolerant and welcoming. It's when I look at the Mudcat threads that I come across the aggro. Mudcat is a fascinating forum, but tends to attract a small number of wiseacres and malcontents! And, of course, the squeakiest wheel always gets the most oil!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Tootler
Date: 06 May 07 - 05:08 PM

what is important is not that you make mistakes, we all do that, but how you deal with them

Yes, quite. But not to say that they don't matter cos it's "only f*lk.

Stop misrepresenting me. I suggest you do as you ask others to do and read my post carefully.

It's disrespectful to your audience and to the music to bash out any old shit.
If you want to play or sing out don't do it till you can.

How do you know how well or otherwise I can play or sing?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 06 May 07 - 12:31 PM

Hey ho NO!

There is probably an upsurge in "NOT traditional" music venues

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 06 May 07 - 10:42 AM

Hey ho
Did we decide what has caused the downfall of the folk clubs yet?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 06 May 07 - 10:10 AM

Thanks Jeri. It's nice to know I'm not alone!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Jeri
Date: 06 May 07 - 09:45 AM

I agree with everything wordy said.

What's wrong with folkdom in England seems clear to an outside observer - IF the people in the clubs are represented accurately by those in this thread. You have a tiny number of disdainful, vicious, obsessively hateful people who don't know when to stop talking (or posting), and THEY are the ones who get the attention.

If people are in it for the love of the music, they're pretty much squashed like a bug by the overwhelming volume of scorn a very small number of determined people can spew.

For example, 50 posts in 5 days, in just this thread, all about who and what a person hates is just the teensiest bit over the top. Not only that, the ones who sneer, belittle and insult their perceived victims sometimes travel in packs. I've met warm and generous English people, or I might believe the vicious ones were representative of English folk club attendees. Ambassadors, if you will. I'm sure some of the people in countries across the world who read Mudcat have surely developed the same opinion. Based on what I've seen in this thread (and a few other heavily hit threads) I wouldn't go anywhere near a folk club where there was any possibility of running into anyone who was so focused on putting others down. They take over.

The truth of it seems to be that one mean-spirited ranter can usually be avoided, but even the gentler souls follow where the bitter and judgemental lead until the whole music 'scene', as well as each thread they may try to dominate, becomes about them - about their hatred, their disdain, their sneering ridicule. I have a feeling there's an example (or several) about to be provided, but I've said everything I'm going to. This is only how the discord looks to one person who's outside of it, where love of folk music of all kinds usually tends to be more encouraged than ridiculed.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 May 07 - 09:28 AM

what is important is not that you make mistakes, we all do that, but how you deal with them

Yes, quite. But not to say that they don't matter cos it's "only f*lk.
It's disrespectful to your audience and to the music to bash out any old shit.
If you want to play or sing out don't do it till you can.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Tootler
Date: 06 May 07 - 09:12 AM

the odd wrong note . . . such things don't matter

Oh yes they do.
That's another bleat of the 'good enough for f*lk' brigade and they couldn't be more wrong.

Actually countess, you're wrong. The odd wrong note doesn't matter and it is not a bleat of the "good enough for folk" brigade. I have been told just that on more than one occasion by professional musicians. The point is, we all make mistakes, even the best performers in all fields of music make mistakes. What does matter is how you handle those mistakes. I remember a few years ago at a Northern Sinfonia concert one of the soloists in a Bach Brandeburg concerto came in at the wrong place. He quickly realised his mistake and stopped. Meanwhile the rest of the orchestra carried on as if nothing had happened and he later came in at the right place and overall it did not detract from the quality of the performance. Although I noticed it on that occasion, I suspect most in the audience did not and also, how many other mistakes have I missed?

Going back to the original point, what has actually been said to me on these occasions, is that the odd wrong note is not important as it is quickly gone and forgotten. What is important is that you keep going and, by and large, no one will notice your mistakes. Also, if you do make a complete hash, stop and start again. Most people will forgive that.

In essence, what is important is not that you make mistakes, we all do that, but how you deal with them.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,TMWW
Date: 06 May 07 - 09:01 AM

I'll settle for )

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 May 07 - 08:23 AM

Yes, I DO say so (insert here punctuation of choice though preferably not an exclamation mark as these remind me of . . . AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,TMWW
Date: 06 May 07 - 08:14 AM

If you say so?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 May 07 - 08:00 AM

the odd wrong note . . . such things don't matter

Oh yes they do.
That's another bleat of the 'good enough for f*lk' brigade and they couldn't be more wrong.
Thanks for reminding me . . . lack of standards and crap performances emptied the clubs too.
And the question mark was intended to convey aghast flabbergastness, whereas an exclamation mark would have indicated that I thought the concept of female subjection funny and it's certainly not that.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,The Mysterious Well Wisher.
Date: 06 May 07 - 07:40 AM

CR: You're right, the singing ref. ref. was lost on me (though the satire never is), and I'm not surprised you're not surprised. I'm sorry I misunderstood that point. Your latest post, although hardly a rowing back, is a big improvement on the adolescent drivel you'd been sliding into... sorry, into which you'd been sliding. I wouldn't want you to row too far back anyway, and I suspect a lot of your critics secretly feel the same. By the way, I think you intended to put an exclamation mark at the end of the first sentence of the second paragraph but, like the odd wrong note, such things don't matter so long as the feeling comes across, do they? No more from me, bye bye.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,SuperStar
Date: 06 May 07 - 07:20 AM

As the best looking, best guitar/fiddle/banjo player and best singer that ever frequented a folk club, I have to confess that I stopped attending due to the unsolicited attention I received from women, both married and single.
There constant pestering caused many marriage breakdowns and many unwanted fights.
I am sure this will have happened to other male peformers but not to the same degree.

All you other male attendees know who I am as I have seen you cringe when I walk into a room. Sheer jealousy I am sure.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 06 May 07 - 06:54 AM

Over the last forty years I have heard women say, and still say, that folk clubs are one of the places that they can go to alone and NOT feel intimidated.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Sooz
Date: 06 May 07 - 04:24 AM

Men look at women and women look at men. All the time. Its what keeps the human race moving. If we stop, we will become extinct and then no-one will be worrying about the state of the folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: breezy
Date: 06 May 07 - 04:14 AM

maybe sessions reflect the growing levels of participation and do not discriminate against the total beginner, whereas there are some clubs that allow unheard floor singers, and clubs that guard against them and clubs that do not have them at all.

Publicity, or lack of

Clubs that are devoid of 'atmosphere'

'Trad' perceived clubs, of which Herga was once, but is no longer, a very welcoming club after all these years


Hand bags away my john

Sunday 20th May Rose and crown St Albans, no charge, anything goes

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 May 07 - 04:11 AM

05 May 07 - 05:46 AM:   No PRS

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 06 May 07 - 03:58 AM

"one of the pack proclaimed proudly that his venue avoids making PRS returns"

He didn't. Actually he said " PRS at the Tap. now that is bordering on comedic".

Irony?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 May 07 - 03:29 AM

My point was actually (not that I expected many in this backwoods, silly-male-orientated (and, it has to be said, some woefully-unreconstructed women) awareness-lacking community to get it - was that such crass behaviour requires challenging throughout life but especially in a music venue where you don't exactly expect to encounter leering, Sun-reading builders scaring women away from music, when music OUGHT to be the reason why everyone is there. I seriously wonder how much this has contributed to their collapse. Shelf-life does expire.

Fancy saying women should just put up with or even enjoy such intimidation? Well, well, even I didn't expect that. Not a scrap of remorse from the perpetrators, oh no, just a campaign of baying idiocy and a ludicrous attempt to expose my identity (I think most people already know it) which resulted in someone else's personal details being displayed. Doesn't augur well for their level of intelligence which, incidentally, took a further dive when one of the pack proclaimed proudly that his venue avoids making PRS returns. Very useful in maintaining artists' intellectual property and affording them an actual living. Little wonder they're having to slope off and do day jobs instead of being lauded and properly rewarded in the declining and hopelessly flawed club circuit.

I do agree with the mysterious well-wisher that playing with html is a tad juvenile, possibly engendered by the brain-dead company I'm in who couldn't possibly grasp the satire. But as it doesn't harm or demean women or musicians struggling to make a living in a bleak climate it would certainly be a less harmful pastime for the baying pack. Sod off and try it. Oh and I didn't call for the thread to be closed, there's a crying need for it as a much-needed consciousness-raising exercise. My reference to Breezy's whistle blowing was merely a plug for the excellent Singing Referee. Too obscure? Why doesn't that surprise me?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 07 - 03:24 AM

"judgmental attitudes, fear of being cold-shouldered because you don't play the 'right' stuff, and unwillingness to risk getting embroiled in the kind of fight we've seen here, certainly doesn't encourage joiners"

You really haevn't heard a "discussion" between the adherents of indie, metal (several subsets), emo, and screamo, have you? And if you add the various sorts of Mobo into the mix, beware of an explosion!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 May 07 - 02:09 AM

Mebbe it was all the in-fighting and public fallings-out of the polarised 'trad' & 'non-trad' brigades that brought the collapse?

Mebbe it was a complicated set of circumstances over a lengthy period of time. Circumstances that included very strong socio-economic influences?

Mebbe it was that folk clubs, like most entertainment venues, had a shelf-life that ran out?

Mebbe it was that most of the people who went to the clubs weren't dedicated folk-enthusiasts, they were just people who enjoyed a night out listening to something that was 'different'. When it stopped being 'different' to their ears, it became 'boring'?

I dunno what it was (if it happened at all, which I'm not sure it did), but it's not helped by some of the stuff on here. Name-calling, insults, abuse, sweeping generalisations, opinions posed as fact, attempts to expose members' real identity (must be against the forum rules? Joe??).

My first post wasn't a suggestion that Westlife/James Blunt etc are wonderful music, I was just trying to say, in an ironic sort of way that fear of judgmental attitudes, fear of being cold-shouldered because you don't play the 'right' stuff, and unwillingness to risk getting embroiled in the kind of fight we've seen here, certainly doesn't encourage joiners.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Cathie
Date: 05 May 07 - 09:44 PM

The SISTERHOOD?!!!

Whoah, what might this be?

How do you join if you are cyber intimidated? 4th May 7:06 am

Maybe Countess Richard will (c)reply to PMs and respect the privacy of those correspondances, like the woman she referred to above?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,A well wisher.
Date: 05 May 07 - 08:06 PM

CR, I'm an admirer of yours but you've made yourself look ridiculous on this. I mean, screaming giant-sized missives in green ink- come on! No wonder you're adding your voice to the appeal for the thread to be closed- a pretty clear admission that know you've painted yourself into a corner. The issue that you ranted about turns out to be not that big a deal it seems, certainly no justification for you (a wordsmith after all) branding the "offender" a pervert- you know the power of that word. "Panicky groan"- again in giant coloured capitals- because someone might look at your picture (that you made public)...?? Can't you see it's utterly juvenile? People are laughing at you. The sisterhood is hardy rushing to your defence is it? I suppose you will either (a) ignore this or (b) come back with your usual "who asked you, you've split an infinitive, fuck off" standard reply- but it would be much more effective and impressive for you to reply holding to your substantive point but drawing back from some of the unpleasant and unjustified things you've said.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 May 07 - 06:30 PM

Oh I forgot to mention that GS is a very religious person. I have to say that I am not, but still have very strong beliefs on morality.
I also have the CRB Advanced Certificate and am vey proud of it. I think all club organisers should be made to have that.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 May 07 - 06:18 PM

This whole problem started when I lightheartedly posted on a thread entitled 'Best thing seen in a Folk Club' and my mind returned to the wonderful 60s when mini skirts were in fashion and I was a red blooded male (much as many of the younger generation of males are now). One night a young female entered the club with her boyfriend and you could have heard a pin drop....mens eyes were on her...married men...single men....including mine(I was single) she was extremely beautiful and I can picture her now. She was far from intimidated or scared...much more enjoying the attention.
So..as I said I lightheartedly posted this on the thread and have been consequently branded a perve or sexist person by the dear Countess.
I thank you for your much more accurate description of me Mr Villan sir...you too have my respect as have all the men and women who attend your club.
Even now Countess, I can appreciate beauty... and your insinuations could never change that.....I have also been known to flatter the occasional beautiful woman if I am attracted to her...such is the joy of leading a single existence. I have never been called sexist by anyone but you.... and you don't even have a clue who I am. However, I am a forgiving sort of person and do not bear grudges against those who attack me in unjustified ways...I just put it down to their lack of understanding or sensitivity and move on.
Best wishes to all. Mike.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 May 07 - 05:33 PM

She don't like the Folk Police

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,The Folk Police
Date: 05 May 07 - 05:28 PM

Countess


Your nicked!