Collapse of the Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 05:14 PM

oh and of course liverpool [Everyman club]but with a professional like Hughie Jones involved thats not unexpected,again I wastreated really well.,and so was hughies whisky.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: concertina ceol
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 05:11 PM

As a paying visitor to Lewes yesterday - to melodeon workshop and concert - I have to say what a fantastic day and night I had and thank the organisers.

Out of six or seven floor spots split to the start of two halves, there was only one act that I thought - I really need to go to the bar! and several of the others including Dan Quin and Peter Collins I have paid good money to see in the past - and gladly would do again.

I've never seen Spiers and Boden live before either and they were simply fantastic. The concert price was £6 incredible value.

Brian, I've been trying to do the maths today - as you know I would like to set something up similar to Lewes Arms FC in Cranbrook - with fees to performers and room hire it doesn't add up (?) but again hats off to yourself, Valmai and the other organisers for making it work!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 05:08 PM

I partly agree withyou,Diane.The pay is not very good,butIhave generally,96 percent of the time been treated well, by club organisers.
My easter tour 2007,accomodation very good,one club[the open door oldham] paid for my bed and breakfast,the organiser paid for a meal and drinks for me out of their own pocket,and treated me with respect,as did all the other club organisers,FourFools,Nottingham Carrington,Darlington Brittannia[and the Glasson maritime festival.
no complaints.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:53 PM

some of the contributors to this thread already run folk clubs,those that dont,might be well advised to stop talking about it ,but go out and run one in a better fashion.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:53 PM

I guess the decline of a lot of folk clubs is the fact that some people expect to get the best quality acts for the lowest price

Indeed they do. Utterly unrealistically,

There was another of these interminable threads a while ago about whether to pay artists a fixed fee or a percentage and what organisers were saying, almost without exception, was 'screw them down as much as you can'.

They also couldn't see the need to provide a green room for getting ready and tuning up or refreshments or accommodation:

'Our guests know what to expect, they change in the middle of the public bar' sort of thing.

So an artist spends all day driving to the venue, does the gig then drives all the way home again, getting back maybe in time for breakfast. A 20-hour day but a fee for two hours on stage.

No, it isn't 'reasonable' to charge punters £3 to £6 at the door, It's not the 1970s any more. Some of the top touring bands have told me that they are on the road for barely the national minumum wage. So how, exactly do the rest pay their mortgages, gas bills or even eat?

The working conditions are shit and the pay abominable. This is no way to treat the carriers of our national heritage. Entrance fee on the door should be £10 minimum, And that door should lead to premises fit to work in.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:50 PM

Just spotted this in another thread.

As always I'm on the look out for musicians who might play for us. Any offers?? Also anyone who wants to, is welcome to come and dance (regadless of whether or not they've danced border morris before)

That'll give morris dancing a good name then.....

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:33 PM

Get out of the back room,get into the bar and take the music back to the people from whence it came! Brilliant idea in concept. How do we achieve it? If we bring the best in folk music into pub bars how do we pay for it though? Do you expect the artists to play for free or should we lobby the brewing industry for subsidies? Seriously - how do we go about it?

As to, hard-earned dosh ? Did I not point out that singers nights were 50p? In fact - I rarely collect any door charge. Would you expect Kate Rusby for free? I guess the decline of a lot of folk clubs is the fact that some people expect to get the best quality acts for the lowest price. Please read the entire post and do not quote out of context. On Guest nights, where people do part with their 'hard earned dosh' you will get nothing but top quality local and national guests supported by the best our club has to offer. For that it is reasonable to pay £3 - £6 don't you think? Maybe if people gave honest and forthright observations and tried to help instead of just taking the piss we could move on a bit? How about it guys? No points to prove, no enemy to defeat, just lets try to get together to see how to best serve the needs of everyone? I am trying my best here. If you have nothing to bring to the party then stay away. Easy isn't it?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:44 PM

anyone coming into the club on a singers night will be made aware that some of the acts will not be of professional standard.

I am not sure if anyone is asking for support acts and singers in clubs to be of professional standard. I personally am certainly not - asking for professional attitude is much more important (and from professionals too).

Not needing to apologise for not knowing the words; chords; meaning of the song; (Shores of Erin anyone?); no sympathetic attitude to the audience; singing a long ballad immediately after someone else has just sung a long ballad, etc. etc.

And please do not sing your teenage diary - it is not repeat not interesting.

Like I said earlier in this thread and I suspect others feel the same - I used to go to folk clubs on a regular basis because I often came across good singers I had not come across before. They got fewer and fewer and the poor singers got more and more frequent - hence I stopped going.

There is - I acknowledge - a school of thought that says anyone can be allowed to sing in front of a paying audience. I don't agree with it and I believe it is (just one) of the reasons for the collapse of folk clubs - NB not folk music which is thriving.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:22 PM

The Snail wrote
"Would Jim Carroll have told source singers "That's not good enough. I'm not going to record you until you've done a bit more practice."?
What a daft question; of course I wouldn't, (I was under the impression that the discussion was on clubs, not field recording - silly me!)
A collector is after songs and information; style and technique are a bonus. I would hesitate to take them to a folk club if I thought their singing was not good enough and would cause them embarrassment. Anybody who has done any field recording knows that the hardest part is to persuade singers that they have anything worthwhile to offer and that by singing for you they are not going to humiliate themselves.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: redsnapper
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:18 PM

"...hear in here" that should have been.

RS

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: redsnapper
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:17 PM

As long as it is understood that singers nights at Swinton CAN give us some crap

Anyone coming into the club on a singers night will be made aware that some of the acts will not be of professional standard.

WARNING!

Some of what you will hear in hear will be utter crap

Hmmm! That at least would be honest before the punters part with their hard-earned dosh at some clubs I've been to (though not all)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,JP1147
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:52 PM

The collapse of the folk clubs was brought by the very concept of the folk club itself.
The day we all went into the BACK ROOM of the pub,put a sign saying "Folk Club,Entrance,Members 2/6,Non-members 3/6",we had effectiveley lost it.
Personally I gave up on Folk Clubs about 25 years ago.
My wife and I,musicians,singers,morris musicians,festival organizers etc have paid our dues to the cause,in my case for over forty years,and quite frankly folk clubs deserve to collapse because most of them are   
dire.
Get out of the back room,get into the bar and take the music back to the people from whence it came!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 11:27 AM

Westhoughton Folk Club did exactly that for years and won the countries top folk club award. No-one, bar none, got on at Westhoughton unless they were know to Pat and the band as good performers. That is within 10 miles of Swinton where, on a singers night, anyone can get on - Even Dave and the Goths sawing guitars in half:-) What I should hope is that the two should NOT be mutualy exclusive. As long as it is understood that singers nights at Swinton CAN give us some crap. It's what I said before. Anyone coming into the club on a singers night will be made aware that some of the acts will not be of professional standard. People are still made welcome. The poorer acts are distributed amongst the better and often do not get a second spot. Anyone going to Westhoughton will have known that they would get nothing but the best. Mind you, WH charged up to £10. Swinton charge 50p on a singers night so I should hope that people would be sensible enough to see the difference. Apples and Oranges. Don't try to compare the two types of club.

BTW - we have 2/3 singers nights and 2 guest nights a month. On a Guest night we charge considerably more to cover the artists costs. Even within the club there is, or should be, an understanding that two two nights are NEVER mixed. I would not dream of bringing a 'newbie' to a singers night but when we have Johny Silvo or The Boat Band or Martin Carthy I would not have any qualms about bringing anyone.

Well, apart from Diane maybe...:-P

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 10:15 AM

The Snail and I have conversed (electronically)

The way we at The Lewes Arms go about things works for us and the suggestions I and others gave earlier may (or perhaps not) work for other places.

Whatever they do (assuming the recognize their problems) it seems that many places need to think hard about how they put on whatever it is they do.

I have seen the situation where you have 4 musician round a table bashing out their tunes and each of them seemed to me to be barely aware of the other three (head down, eyes closed and so on)let alone any body else. OK it was close to closing time and the Guinness had been consumed in some quantity (it was one of the "Irish" sessions I mentioned earlier)

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 09:18 AM

send an e-mail Bryan I've got my laptop at work with me today.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 09:12 AM

Ah, Breton Cap doesn't quite agree. I'll have to have a word with him. I can't really see what the test would be to graduate from the beginners/improvers.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 09:09 AM

Dave Polshaw
There are clubs, Like Lewes etc. that are thriving, inclusive and generally good places to be.

The problem is that, following Folkiedave's Gothic fantasy and my reply within the theme, we have been held up as an example of what is wrong with folk clubs and why they are collapsing.

I'll try and break down the exchange to it's essentials -
Folkiedave: If a group of total strangers turned up at your club and wanted a floorspot, would they get one?
The Snail: Yes, it happens often.
Folkiedave: If they turned out to be really awful, would you put them on again if they turned up the next week?
The Snail: Yes. I'm speculating there because this has never happened but I'm pretty sure we would. Performing in an atmosphere of people who are inclusive, welcoming and who clearly care deeply about their music would be bound to have a beneficial influence. They could hardly fail to improve. We've had some who, while not awful, were somewhat short of wonderful. Watching them develop has been a joy.

How about we have the 'improvers' running from 7:30 to 8:30 before the main part of the audience arrives? Promotion to getting a floor spot after 8:30 could be a real goal for some!
I really ought to check with the other residents but I think we would find that anathema. A folk club is a social occasion. You can't expect people to pass a test before they are considered full members of society. What do you do about visiting strangers? Would we put Dave and the Goths in the improvers only to discover they were travelling incognito on their way home from Cropredy? Did the collectors use the same policy? Would Jim Carroll have told source singers "That's not good enough. I'm not going to record you until you've done a bit more practice."?

The folk scene around here is thriving. As Breton Cap said "Maybe [other parts] could adopt some of the ideas we have used down here.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 08:06 AM

That would help too Dave.

The only problem I have with this is that down here people don't seem to want to go out before 8:30 so an earlier start might not always work.

I have always felt that musicians who need to choon-up should do so before the session/evening starts and would prefer,if it were down to me, to use any "before" time for that as well.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:55 AM

Maybe making it understood that some nights or parts of the night are for beginers? Perhaps we can turn even the negative to possitive - There are many instances cited of poor perfomances putting people off. Maybe if we make it quite clear to newcomers that part of the night or whatever is for people who want to improve then they can make up there own minds whether to attend the improvers sessions? I would - I sometimes have a morbid curiousity to see how bad some people can realy get:-P There may even be the odd one who thinks 'I could do better than that!' and go on to be a star:-)

How about we have the 'improvers' running from 7:30 to 8:30 before the main part of the audience arrives? Promotion to getting a floor spot after 8:30 could be a real goal for some!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:53 AM

Correct.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:44 AM

"It is the music and community that is important, not the place".

Absolutely Dave, I don't think anyone would argue with that.

So, if we accept that Good and Thriving Clubs are the minority what can be done to improve those clubs that are not so successful?

Dave cites a closed singaround circle as being a problem he encountered. Perhaps this would have been better if it were more horseshoe shaped or perhaps two sides or a corner. The point being to face outwards as much as possible and to appear more inviting to incomers.

Also of course make the playing and/or singing as polished as possible. This point I address to the central bunch of singers/musos. If you are able to attract newcomers you may have to accept that they may not be as expert as the "residents" but their effort should be applauded as encouragement to progress and improve.

The above may only make slight improvements but would be a step in the right direction.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:22 AM

>>Let's not get too hung up on the 'Folk club' either. If, eventualy, the folk club is replaced with a 'live music showcase' or a 'beginers workshop' or a screaming heebeejeeby it doesn't matter. It is the music and community that is important, not the place.
<<

I totally agree Dave.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:12 AM

I have come to the conclusion that people are talking about different things here sometimes. Diane will confirm that I am slow in cottoning on at times but I like to think I do get there eventualy:-)

There are clubs, Like Lewes etc. that are thriving, inclusive and generaly good places to be. There are also clubs which are dull, exclusive and, to the outsider, not at all fun to be in. I am very lucky in that I only attend 2 clubs on a regular basis, Swinton and Newcastle, both of which are in the former category. I did, at first, find it hard to believe that the other type of club does exist.

On reflection, however, I have been to clubs in the latter category. I was at one last year where the 'singers' sat in a very exclusive circle with reserved signs on the table. There was nowhere for an audience to sit within the mutual self praise society and it was not so much that others were not invited to sing but that any outsiders were purposely and very obvously excluded. The quality of acts was not that good but I think that can be forgiven sometimes if the majoroty are good and the club is fun anyway. This one failed on all counts.

I think Diane and others have already agreed that there are some good clubs. I think what this side of the debate is saying is that this type of club is in the minority. I did, as I have already said, find it hard to believe at first but, with no direct experience of anything but a handful of clubs, I must bow to greater experience. Maybe I have just been lucky.

The other side of the debate is centred on these good clubs and it cannot fail to. No-one in their right mind is going to stand up and say "Well my club is in all honestey, not very good." Are they? So all we get is the supporters of the clubs that are good in most, if not all, respects. Anyone fancy doing a count? How many clubs have been mentioned as being particulary good? A dozen or so? How many clubs are there in the country? A lot more!

I think supporters of the argument that folk clubs are no longer a good place to be have been, up to now, very restrained in that they have not mentioned clubs, residents or organisers of these poor clubs by name and for that they must be thanked. It has made it difficult for them to get their points across. Where examples of good clubs are seen as possitive things, examples of bad ones will look very negative. I do suspect however that those who are saying clubs, in the main, are poor, have the direct experience to provide us with 10 examples of a poor club to every one of a good one:-(

I, for one, will now look at my own club very criticaly and try to avoid the traps that have been pointed out throughout the thread. Lets leave it as Les's original intention was - A look at why good folk clubs are dwindling and lets make sure that we do try to keep improving the good while accepting that the bad will, and should, fall by the wayside. Let's not get too hung up on the 'Folk club' either. If, eventualy, the folk club is replaced with a 'live music showcase' or a 'beginers workshop' or a screaming heebeejeeby it doesn't matter. It is the music and community that is important, not the place.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:01 AM

There you go!

Something for everybody.

A Workshop during the Day,Top Quality Guests in the evening, Local Trad style singer earlier in the week, sessions over the next few days. And if you want more there are Irish style sessions nearly every night of the week in Brighton

Lewes (and Sussex)can do it it's a pity that perhaps other parts are not able to. Maybe they could adopt some of the ideas we have used down here.

Sorry I couldn't make the Spiers and Boden Night Bryan - Work and all that tha knows.

Dave
(at work)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 08:53 PM

Just back from Spiers's and Boden's gig at the Arms. It really lifts the spirits. The only dissappointment was that there wasn't time to get on all the excellent performers from the audience to do floor spots even with all the residents standing back to allow time as is our policy. Their workshops went well as well.

Following on from Thursday at the Oak when Noel Dumbrell, a delightful local singer, was joined for one song by his ten year old grandson singing and playing banjo, and Chippenham Festival last weekend, it's been a good week.

Now it's back to fairly normal with the Sunday afternoon session run by Valmai's husband Meic tomorrow (er, this) afternoon, the John Harvey Tavern session on Tuesday and, of course, Will Duke's session a week on Monday.

Might go to see Tom McConville, Claire Mann and Aaron Jones in Crawley tomorrow night but I've got to find time to practice the stuff for Teignmouth Festival in a couple of weeks.

I won't bother to plug next Saturday at the Arms because it's already sold out.

It's great to be living at a time when the folk scene is so vigorous.

Bryan Creer (Lewes Arms Folk Club resident and member of Spare Parts concertina band as I'm sure a lot of people already knew).

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TommysDaddy
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 06:42 PM

Well, there is a place for all . . Clubs, Festivals, sessions, sing-arounds. .
It often seems to be the club devotees who become the festival and session organisers. In all walks of life there is room for those who have a casual interest as well as the enthusiast and the old and young often want to do things there own way.

From the clubs' point of view, it's best not to be too cliquey & welcome all-comers. Smokeless atmospheres help too.

We had some 12-year-olds along and they enjoyed themselves immensely - but haven't been back 'cos they stick with their parents who are not folkies - maybe they'll take up the interest when they are old enough to go out on their own . . . but I am always amused as one of them refers to the club (affectionately !) as "the old folks' club".

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: SussexCarole
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 05:37 PM

There are those who attend folk clubs to fawn at the exhaulted. So if that's your choice you know where to go - there are many clubs who fit that bill! (And I won't be there)

Thankfully there are many, thriving clubs who host singaround nights and enjoy the company and singing of local very talented performers. No club needs to justify its booking policy to anyone!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 05:12 PM

Long live Village Halls where people in rural areas can have a chance of seeing live music.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 04:26 PM

Yes, they do resemble a bunch of stroppy pensioners when the council threatens to close their drop-in centre,

Long live the session and the festival.

Hurrah!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 04:16 PM

sheer spite, bad language and blinkered attitudes
You may not like the medium, but the message is inescapable - the 'folk club' has had its day and now lingers on largely as a refuge for those who have problems finding friends elsewhere.
If there are any blinkers here, they're being worn by those sad souls who keep saying. "Our club's fine, so that proves that there's nothing wrong with folk clubs."
Long live the session and the festival.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 03:55 PM

To paraphrase: for gawd's sake piss off.

As I wrote on the 'Morality and Collecting' thread:

As I said at 11.41 (which is going on for 5 in the morning here) in the course of pointing out that I wasn't and didn't intend to be engaged in house cleaning but was reading a few tunes, the Oxidised Non-Instrument can sod off too.

I was deeply incensed by his (yeah, has to be a him) intensely personal, trivialising shit but decided to ask the Big Mick person how it was he was justifying having a go at me for the way in which I counter the sexist abuse and trivialisation yet was failing to condemn the idiots who spout it in the first place . . . (continued over the page).

This person ignores my writing to topic and asks whether I have a husband. Blinkered or what? In this one, of course, they treat venues as pick-up joints.

THIS is what ruins useful threads. Wankers.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 03:36 PM

Oh, I am so glad I stumbled across this thread! Elsewhere on the 'cat I (and several others)have received the full force of the Countess's invective for no apparent reason in the last day or two and I couldn't believe that such sheer spite, bad language and blinkered attitudes were out there amongst us. Over many years of involvement in live acoustic music I'm pleased and relieved to say I've never before encountered anyone quite like that, and hope I never do again.

Joe/Max/anyone! This sort of thing is ruining useful and enjoyable threads - can something be done, please? Quick, because I'm nervous about what she'll call me next time!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 02:46 PM

Sigh.

If you had bothered to read the read, extremely tedious Anonymous Guest, it would be obvious that I had said all along that I had never got round to entering the Lewes Arms, though I'd been at the Royal Oak many times (and described it as one of the best venues I have ever visited, though as Captain Ginger says, it's one of a very few thriving 'clubs' left). And I 'know' who the people are behind the quaint hat and mollusc pseudonyms. And I've never said anything against what goes on at the Lewes Arms, having heard a great deal from many who have been there, both as booked artists and punters.

What I am criticising, as I ofttimes do, is the wholly unrealistic anachronism beloved of so many organisers in the very odd, extremely peculiar other-world of died-in-the-wool, tankard weilding f*lkies. Yes, I've had some extremely embarrassing experiences of dragging people I've met at a festival (for example) to a club to see someone they've seen and liked at an LNE and watched their astonished faces mouthing 'What the fuck is this?' And they vow never ever to enter a folk club again. And I can't blame them.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 01:26 PM

Polite comment and/or constructive criticism would be fine but Diane seems unable to do either of those.

She said she knew the people involved in the club and seemed to dismiss them out of hand without having any direct knowledge of that club.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 01:12 PM

Not that she needs anyone to box for her corner, but I don't see why Diane has to know personally and intimately the organiser of a club to be able to comment on it. I've dropped in on clubs where I haven't known a soul, and that - to me - is the best barometer. And sometimes I've sat there nursing a slow half while the regulars gurn their way through something execrable with nary a word of welcome or warning.
To return to the topic, I also agree with her that the folk club that we knew through the sixties and seventies is going the way of the dodo - despite the protestations of posters here concening a handful of apparently thriving venues. The fact remains that I would be too embarrassed to bring many of my friends into contact with the average folk club unless they regularly worked with the differently-abled and the downright odd.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 12:59 PM

'in the sense of recognise in a bar/in the street'

That's my point (and yours for that matter)

To recognise is not to KNOW .

You have said people think they know you but don't at all but what you have been doing in this thread is just that.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 07:38 AM

Evidence, Anonymous Guest?
Of what?

I know who they are.
I know (in the sense of recognise in a bar/in the street if I haven't crossed over first) very many organisers, absolutely not on a Best Friends basis.
This is doubtless influenced by their knowing that I believe them to be way behind the times, on a hiding to nothing and wrong.
Nothing personal in this, I care about the music, not their posturing sensitivities, and really see no point in reminiscing about the long-gone Good Old Days.

Now piss off.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 07:21 AM

But you haven't proven that you know the Lewes Arms people (and I mean on a personal basis.

All you have don't is rant in your usual way.


Where's the evidence?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 06:06 AM

Yeah, well Anonymous Guest, there are lots of people who think they know me but clearly don't.
If you really did and had something to say you'd have picked up the phone.
Wouldn't you?
Not guessing.
Don't care.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 05:49 AM

From GS:

you are not someone I would readily have conversations with

Good grief.
And a relief. What a prat.
I really wanted to go to Lincolnshire and see Liam Robinson live too . . .
Still, I expect he leaves the backwoods for civilisation quite often.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 05:48 AM

'stumbled across them elsewhere in Real Life'

Have you indeed? So you think you"know" them?

There is a difference between being on opposite sides of the same room and meeting a person and then having a constructive conversation - even if you don't agree a conversation can be a useful "getting to know you"

Not As Anonymous as you might think
(I could say I know you)
Keep Guessing

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 05:34 AM

As it goes, Anonymous Guest, I do know these people, having stumbled across them elsewhere in Real Life. That is not the point as it is the personalised, hostile, defensive attitude of many organisers that epitomises the anachronism of the past-sell-by f*lk clubs.

The point of this thread is to analyse why it is that the circuit is dead on its feet. The longer it continues the more they will whinge about how Fings Wot Ain't Wot They Used To Be, instead of throwing themselves into the growing ethos of tradarts as an integral and viable part of community activity where artists are respected and properly remunerated.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 05:24 AM

>>>>>>>>>Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Diane Easby - PM
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 04:52 PM

you are by far the most objectionable woman I have ever come across

Well, hopefully not, GS (recently crawled out of woodwork).
I live in hope that some other woman stronger and more forthright that I am will finally get through to you about how disgustingly and inappropriately sexist you are with your fawning over women who just want to kick you in the balls.
Yeah, I know you think you're in the right and believe all your crap is 'harmless banter'. Pah!
It isn't, even in Lincolnshire, home of the backwoods baying pack of Neanderthals.
Some of what I say is 'quite valid'? You bet it is and I don't need your damning with faint praise.
I'm 'best avoided'? Definitely, till you manage to behave like actual men.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Sadly Diane...due to pressures of living in the real world I have been much too busy to waste my time with your matronising banter and insults on here so crawling out of the woodwork was far from the truth.
Sexist for fawning over women.... as in the sixties I was truly taken..as were many other men...with a mini skirted beauty who loved the attention. Also because I find some women attractive. I don't fawn over them Diane as if you think you know me anyway!!! Many women enjoy my company and would find kicking a man in the manner you describe with your teenage rantings out of their range of learned behaviour.
Lincolnshire, home of the backwoods baying pack of neanderthals. It is plain for all to see that your judgement of fellow human beings is lacking in substance, not to mention the decorum that most women show when dealing with people they don't know.
All men are actual men although I grant you some behave with the same disrespect and low tricks that you yourself do and some through lack of sensitivity or understanding, make similar accusations to those you have made..
I too am out of this thread....perhaps you can hold on to the thread with those few people who seem to think you know what you are talking about...perhaps any Folk Club that has had dealings with you has suffered much the same as this thread..in which case...no wonder some of them are collapsing.
Goodbye Diane..I shall avoid your acquaintance as you are not someone I would readily have conversations with.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 05:16 AM

Fer Crissake woman give it rest.

If you dont know the venue or the people involved leave 'em alone or go there and get to know them so that you have real evidence to judge them by.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 05:04 AM

Yes, by a strange quirk the Lewes Arms does happen to be one of the very few venues I've never actually visited.
(And I'm increasingly less likely to after such a display of hostile, defensive petulance from its 'wesidents')
This is not to say I'm not fully aware of its reputation for musical excellence and that its workshops are not A Good Thing. They are.
It's the insularity, the all lads together bonded in our minority hobby, that I deplore.
And aside from the tiny few of the 60s revival style clubs remaining which retain an ethos of musical diversity rooted in the traditions of English dance music and song and make efforts to involve the local community, the circuit is a laughing stock to the outside world, a morass of mediocrity, and the sooner its beknighted defenders pack it in and enter the 21st century, the better.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 04:45 AM

Gulliver
Can't someone take pity on this lot and close this thread down? Not surprising that the "the Folk Club scene" collapsed!

That would be a pity. I think there is a lot more that could be usefully discussed if only a very small minority weren't so keen to resort to slagging off clubs they've never been too, jumping to unfounded assumptions, abuse and threats of violence.

Off to the Arms to help out with the Spiers and Boden workshops. Won't plug their gig this evening because it's already sold out.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 03:10 AM

"Can't someone take pity on this lot and close this thread down? Not surprising that the "the Folk Club scene" collapsed!"

This is the last time I contribute anything to this Thread.

My point has been that not all Folk Clubs are as poor as Ms Easby thinks and that we do love the music and song. Our clubs here in Sussex (not just Lewes) are successful and put on better things than whatever it is herself has encountered in other places (what is this MOR she hates so much?)

I've tried to make my point. If i failed it's just too bad.

I have better and more important things to worry about.

Dave

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 11:26 PM

Indeed yes, Mr Gulliver, it is not surprising.
Here in full, ridiculous array are all the reasons why I rarely go near it nowadays if I can help it.
(Better places, nicer people who actually care for the music . . . )
Someone, somewhere else described these blustering specimens as 'testosterone-fuelled retards', baying at the wrong target.
Off they go in their packs, defending the indefensible, the mediocre and the out-and-out crap, not noticing how the real world looks on askance and in scorn.
Pity they don't follow some ludicrous game with a ball instead (oh, they do).
Anyway, what am I doing at 0430 concerning myself with nonentities?
Life's far too short, better things to do, etc etc . . .

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Gulliver
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 09:39 PM

Can't someone take pity on this lot and close this thread down? Not surprising that the "the Folk Club scene" collapsed!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 08:32 PM

On another thread Diane Easby said -
It's OK for blokes to write any sort of threatening stuff they like but not for women to take the piss?

On this thread she said -
Maybe I'll just kick you down the Royal Oak steps (singing Tom Paine's Bones as I do it.)

Compare and contrast, as they say.

I think perhaps I'd better warn Vic and Tina to expect trouble.