A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: mark gregory
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 02:45 AM

Bert: The Life and Times of A.L.Lloyd by Dave Arthur is being launched on 31 May 2012 at

Venue: Cecil Sharp House
Start Time: 7:30:PM

Music by Dave Arthur and his band, Martyn Wyndham Read and Iris Bishop.

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 06:26 AM

Belatedly ~~ I have only been on the Cat for 3 years ~

I visited Bert at his Greenwich home in the 70s, & did a long interview which appeared in Folk Review, Sep 74. Unlike the young lady who went there to interview him above somewhere, he forgot{?} to offer me a cup of tea, but was perfectly affable all the same {we did, in fact, know one another tolerably thru the club scene}. My interview made a fair impact at the time ~~ I recall Ailie Munro of the school of Scottish Studies remarking that it had given her a lot of insights.
When Bert died, I wrote his obit for The Guardian; it got a bit messed about by a smartarse obits editor who looked him up in Grove and added in some inaccuracies which he found there without ref back to me, at which recollection I have just spat yet another bucketful of blood! But Charlotte Lloyd & their daughter, whom I met not long after at a memorial concert for him, remarked (I think sincerely ~ sounded so anyhow and they didn't have to say it) that it had been their favourite among his obits as the one by someone who knew him & what he had been about.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 05:54 AM

Thanks for the info Mick. Much obliged. Burl.

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 05:23 PM

It's listed: Bert: The Life and Times of A. L. Lloyd [Library Binding] by Dave Arthur, available for pre-order at Amazon (and elsewhere). 20th April 2012 given as publishing date.

Mick

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 05:04 PM

Just been re-reading this terrific thread with huge enjoyment. I must ask - Does anybody know when or if that biography will come out? I want it. Burl.

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 03:25 PM

My last memory of Bert was the night he turned up at The Singers Club having just come from a function at the Rumanian Embassy. Kitted out in his best Embassy going gear – dress-suit, dickie bow and starched shirt, he appeared at the door of the club-room sporting a beatific smile and swirling an enormous brandy glass, having obviously partaken of the same liberally throughout the evening.
He made a bee-line for Ewan and Peggy who were on the stage, only to be stopped abruptly in his tracks by his wife Charlotte's cry of "AL-BERT"
Bert was a fascinating man and I was extremely disappointed when the much anticipated biography never appeared.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 10:32 PM

This thread is a treasure, and I hope there will be even more added to it. It is the kind of gathering spot of telling memories which show the Mudcat at its very best.

A

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: elfcape
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 08:50 PM

My most vivid memory of Bert dates from around 1977 when he came to Cambridge, MA and gave a lecture and a concert.

The lecture was about Bartok's quartets and their provenance in his collecting. It was in the Music Building at Harvard in the afternoon.

Keeping in mind that Bert was a folksinger to the wider world, and one who held a place where the culture was Western European, and that that place was, perhaps, not quite as "high class" as that of those who went into completely foreign cultures and brought back arcane bits, the faculty and students came, but there was an atmosphere of not quite unqualified academic approval.

Bert came armed with a tape player and cassette.

Now many of us know how many pitfalls lie in that combination, especially when one really needs complete control.

Not for Bert. Not only did the little tape machine work, not only could it be heard by everyone in the room, but Bert's understanding of the rituals of the academic ecosystem was complete. He had parsed the quartet movements he wanted to use exactly, and found precisely the most convincing excerpts from Bartok's recordings to illustrate the connections. And he stood there in his suit and tie as though it was the most comfortable environment in his world.

In essence his lecture was just another academically successful presentation, like any of the hundreds I'd attended over the 6 years I passed through a musicology program.

But the presenter was Bert, not any of the myriad scholars accepted in the ethnomusicological world of the time.


After doing his academic task, Bert then swept off to perform in the world which we might consider more comfortable - 200 people crushed themselves into the dining room of one of the Harvard Houses for an evening of English traditional songs. No tape recorder, no lectures - not what we were there for. Instead we heard shaggy dog story after yarn after tall tale - the most groaner punch lines, bawdy puns, and, in between, a song or two or three. Bert did his Bert thing for us for a couple hours and brought the house down. Time vanished while we roared and giggled at the puns and punch lines. The Bert Lloyd of Bartok's heart rending quartets was nowhere to be found, except for the few of us that had actually crossed over the line between that Bert and the folksinger one.

What a contrast.

And what consummate professionalism.

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:19 PM

Dolly died in 1995 - Shirley is very active still, touring a couple of shows

She has her own website - I am sure you could gewt in touch through there.....

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 12:16 PM

McColl, anecdotally, was a rather forbidding figure in public, didactic mode. But much more approachable in a one to one setting.

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 12:07 PM

An earlier contributor to this thread described Bert Lloyd as being pleasant and personable whilst Ewan MacColl was somewhat distant and preoccupied. Actually, I had the opposite experience.
When Lloyd's book, 'Folk Song in England', came out in 1967 I bought a copy and when he came to my local folk club shyly approached him (I was 19 at the time) and asked him if he would sign it. He replied that he normally only signed books for close friends or family but he would (deign to) 'autograph' my copy - he then scrawled his name on the flyleaf. I still feel that this was an unecessarily pedantic and curmudgeonly response, especially when you consider how relatively expensive hardback books were in those days.
I should also add that he was brilliant on that particular night and I forgive him!

I also met Ewan MacColl on several occasions and always found him to be very attentive and polite. I confess to being a somewhat gauche youth, and must have asked him many stupid questions - but he always went out of his way to give me considered answers. On the last occasion that I met him we had a long conversation (about botany of all things!) and he seemed genuinely interested in what I had to say. At the end of that evening he regaled us with some fascinating stories about collecting with Alan Lomax (what I would give to have a recording or transcript of those stories!).

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 06:08 AM

It would be very interesting if someone were to research the influence of Lloyd on the younger singers of the revival; get the reminiscneces down while they are still available. My impression is that the most influential singers of the revival, the Watersons and Ann Briggs, were partially under his control in terms of repertoire, approach etc. "Control" is perhaps the wrong word: more a light but crucial touch on the tiller now and again when needed. llyoyd was certainly a Communist and not averse to making changes to songs for ideological reasons, but he basically liked folksongs for themselves. The Watersons and Briggs classic repertoire, for example, was by no means Red. Far from it. "General Wolfe", "Fathom the Bowl" and "Blackwaterside" summed up that era as much, or more, than "THe Blackleg Miner".

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 04:51 AM

when I was a child ,living in BLACKHEATH, I often used to play with his children , My parents like Bert were members of the communist party,and we always bought his recordings,,never thinking I would end up a professonal folk singer.DickMiles

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Nov 06 - 08:19 AM

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 07:16 AM

It seems to have no origin. I guess many song's don't?

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 05:42 AM

According to "Come All Ye Bold Miners" - As sung by W.S. Sampey, Bishop Auckland Do. Durham. 18-11-49. It doesn't say by whom it was recorded.

The search for mining songs via the National Coal Board which resulted in the first publication of "Come All Ye Bold Miners" was after that date, so it couldn't be part of that.

Bert Lloyd also comments in the book - "The Durham song has become quite widespread since its appearance in the first edition of the present work and the tune has taken on variant shapes".

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 04:11 AM

Did Lloyd collect "The Blackleg Miner" or did he write it?

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 01:34 AM

Thanks Malcolm - trust me not to think of that!

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 06:29 PM

Georgina isn't a member, so no personal messages; but you can find contact details at http://www.coopeboyesandsimpson.co.uk/.

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 05:57 PM

Lighter at Work - Yes, Lloyd, MacColl, Sharp and all did ensure that lots of music was available for future generations. Good thing. But it's also good to be aware of how they selected and arranged and changed that music. This is not necessarily an "either-or" situation. I'm sure it's possible to be glad there were revivals and yet be able to analyse and critique them.

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 05:50 PM

It's no criticism to say that the UK folk revival was "contrived" by a few individuals. If so, thank God they were able to pull it off!
Without the enthusiasm of Lloyd, MacColl, and many others, all that music would be effectively dead.

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 05:36 PM

Hi Georgina

I've been keen to contact you for such a long time, but until now haven't known how to.

I wasn't denigrating your standpoint - merely pointing out that all critical studies necessarily involve making judgements and that someone who's looking for some straightforward facts has to follow their own opinion as regards these judgements.

As I remember, you pointed out that, no matter how much the "second revival" was supposed to differ from the first, ultimately the prescriptions laid down by Cecil Sharp (or at the very least, his TENDENCY to prescribe) shaped the thinking of all the leading revivalists who came after - and that Lloyd was no exception. All of this affected women's role in folk music (and I do see feminism as a very important strand in your book), it allowed the mediation and objectification of what was once a functional part of communities, and it subtly shaped our imagined Englishness. Please correct me if I've got this wrong, and forgive the fact that I've rashly tried to sum up a full-size book in a sentence. All I wanted to emphasize in this thread was that yours is a study of revival and mediation and not a straightforward account of Lloyd's life, so sorry if you took this as implied criticism!

Please would you PM me with contact details if you'd like to continue this discussion because I'm in the middle of a related research project and would very much appreciate your advice?

Cheers
Jude

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 11:08 AM

I can remember a conversation which I had with Bert while driving him back from St Albans Folk Club many years ago. He claimed that the UK "Folk Revival" of the 60s/70s, was actually contrived by a group of people (which included him) and was not a spontaneous happening. I forget who all the other names were, but I must admit he put a very solid case for it being the truth.

Perhaps there should be a blue plaque on a certain house in Crooms Hill, Greenwich.

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 05:52 PM

Re my 'particular ideological standpoint' - would 'shepherdlass' like to specify what that is?

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 07:38 AM

If you want to get some of the facts about A L Lloyd, you can go to any of the histories of folk revival, like Georgina Boyes' "The Imagined Village" and Mike Brocken's "The British Folk Revival". These will give you a lot of the dates, the links with the Workers' Music Association and Topic, etc. But be warned that they often come from particular ideological standpoints and are not always flattering to the man. You just have to take what you can from these things and work out where your own opinions lie. Also, there was a book edited by Ian Russell, called "Singer, Song and Scholar", which contained some very good articles on Lloyd.

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 06:37 PM

Bert Lloyd was a monumental figure, a giant in the folk revival world I came of age within. (Ewan as well) Strange revisions and historical takes on people are one of the things that rub me completely wrong about this time we are in. I'm afraid there is nothing to be done about it. More modern people, from whatever era, will always either ignore aspects of history or re-do history in the light of their own P.C. beliefs and/or religions. How better to explain the hundreds of Christian religions---or the divergent branches of Islamic thought---or the many ways one can be Jewish now. Once in a while the new take/spin is put forth to put out a new and better version of history---possibly because it actually might be a better, more factual, more accurate version. Many times it is for the money a new book or DVD or CD-Rom might generate. Especially after someone dies---the spate of new things to buy about a person is often simply a travesty of opportunistic promotions. Truth is served sometimes. But false truths that are put forth for ulterior, possibly selfish, motives are much too plentiful.

Pardon my excess verbage, but where A.L. Bert Lloyd is concerned, minimizing his many contributions is way off the mark.

But good and bad things will survive in this world. George Bush may go down in history as greater than either Washington or Lincoln. Thomas Jefferson might become a devil in peoples' eyes because he fathered an out of wedlock child whose mother was a slave. Older people will decry the changes taking place, and try to hold on to the things they think are valuable. --- This will often have little to do with what is good or bad, right or wrong, moral or immoral.

As my brother, Richard, says in a recent cyber column he wrote (called Islands In The Clickstream if you want to search for it)---and I paraphrase---The new takes over from the old slowly -- "one death at a time!"

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 04:44 PM

Most of his papers are held there. There is a general description at

http://www.aim25.ac.uk/cgi-bin/search2?coll_id=5503&inst_id=29

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Karen Jonason
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 04:29 PM

I posted an anecdote in '03. I have since found out that AL Lloyd's Eastern European recordins are all held at Goldsmiths College.

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 11:19 AM

I'm glad that someone has revived this thread - my perception is that we're in great danger of forgetting Bert altogether!
At a ballad session, at a recent festival, a number of singers credited their renditions to Martin Carthy (nothing wrong with that - except that they all sounded like MC!). I reflected that a generation ago the credits would have gone to Bert; even MC was known to get the occasional song from Bert (with full credits, of course).
Recently an old friend lent me some tapes made in the Folk Club we both attended in the late 60s. The best and most electrifying recordings were of Bert. Even though I had been there, and enjoyed Bert's singing enormously, listening to these tapes from a more mature perspective, I realised what a brilliant performer he was.
I recall a smallish man, in late middle age (probably the same sort of age that I am now!), looking like a bank manager or your favourite uncle. I always think of him in a suit and tie but I am not sure if my memories are correct on this point.
Anyway, he would arrive at the club, from the London train, and launch into an evening of songs and stories which was quite incredible in terms of novelty and variety. He was also a great wit with a sly and understated sense of humour.
Recently an image has begun to form in mind of a sort of travelling magician; a deceptively ordinary looking person who could entertain an audience with a seemingly endless succession of wonders and marvels.
Bert gets criticised, these days, for not revealing his sources, but, like all the best magicians, I think that he was very reluctant to give away the secrets of his trade.

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 08:19 AM

I must say condemming Bert Lloyd for not being a proper seamna sounds a bit unfair. Wasn't he on a whaler or a merchant ship for a while?
Anyway, Sovay is 'spiced' (to use his own term) with Balkan phrasings of his.

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 11:38 AM

If you find a copy of Penguin Poetry of the Forties, you will find our hero in a different guise, as translator of the French surrealist poets.

Not a lot of peoople know that.

I always think there is something slightly surreal about a folk tradition that doesn't really stretch back as far as our parents(perhaps I should say my parents at least)- a bit like the railway train shooting out of the chimney grate in somebody or others picture.

Best of luck with your project.

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From:
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 06:48 PM

All has been quiet for TOO long.
There's a snide reference to Bert Lloyd in Dominic Behan's novel "The Public World of Parable Jones." (Fontana Paperbacks) page 40
"Even the pusillanimous Bert Lloyd had been found with men and sheep..."
Dom's revenge for Bert's scathing review of "Posterity Be Damned!"
Bert's summary: "Nothing to Declare."
I know -- I was there with them while recording the Ballad of John Axon
Stan (Liverpool Lullaby)Kelly

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 04:01 AM

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 09:03 AM

Nutty-

Thanks for the link above to background information on the Workers Music Association and the early stages of the folk music revival; it's more extensive than what I had access to 20 years ago. I did correspond at the time with Alan Bush, president of the WMA, but he couldn't provide more information on B. Woolf.

I don't know if you had checked my "hot link" above to the "Origin of Pity the Downtrodden Landlord" thread. If so you would see much the same information displayed about the song and the Unity Theatre group. The frustration, I have is that no one seems to be able to nail the first name of the composer or tell me anything about him/her.

Please post new information or leads on that thread.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: A. L. Lloyd: History and anecdotes?
From: nutty
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 03:17 AM

This site gives some info regarding the history of the song ......
CLICK

In brief, it says (although the whole article is worth reading)..........

The song Pity The Downtrodden Landlord [Woolf/Clayton] was written during the war and became something of a
staple left-wing satirical song in the late-1940s and early-1950s. At a time of chronic house shortages and before
pre-fab and Council House building had yet reached a climax, landlords were often viewed from the left as
class-ridden parasites [see the later Stan Kelly Topic EP: Songs for Swinging Landlords To, TOP60]. The biting
satire of the song became something of a political rallying flag for those who wished to see the advance of public
ownership in property:

    "...You are able to work for your living
    And rejoice in your strength and your skill;
    So try to be kind and forgiving
    To a man whom a day's work would kill;
    You can work, and still talk to your neighbour;
    You can look the whole world in the face;
    But the landlord who ventured to labour
    Would never survive the disgrace.

    So pity the downtrodden landlord
    And his back that is burdened and bent;
    Respect his grey hairs, don't ask for repairs,
    And don't be behind with the rent!"

It was published in sheet music form by the WMA from the war onward, with a catalogue number of 9029, price 6d.

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd:History and anecdotes?
From:
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 10:23 PM

I've been emailing hors-de-liste with Charley -- told him I would try find my ancient TOPIC Record "Songs for Swinging Landlords TO" --
no luck yet. I'm sure the sleeve-notes etc (probably by Bert Lloyd)
would reveal origins of "Pity the Downtrodden Landlord" which is the highlight [sez who?] with Leon Rosselson on PIANO backing my sarcastic warbling. TOPIC were usually careful to render due acks to the authors/composers. Anyone out there gorra copy of my LP
(though EP sized)? PAX VOBISCUM
Stan Kelly
PS Has anyone started a separate thread on Dominic Behan?
"If they asked me I could write a beuk!"
before the neurons fade away!

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd:History and anecdotes?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 10:10 AM

No, that's John Foreman! There are similarities though in age and repertoire. Can't recall ever seeeing them in the same place together, but I'm fairly sure they must know each other.

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd:History and anecdotes?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 09:56 AM

Is Jim Ward also known as "The Broadside King"? If so I've already queried him a few years ago when he was a featured performer at the Cecil Sharp House.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd:History and anecdotes?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 08:39 PM

Here's the link to the "Origins of Pity The Downtrodden Landlord" thread that I started as "Landlady's Daughter" years ago. Clive Woolf could be a promising lead if Countess Richard would PM an e-mail address. This is one major mystery which hasn't been cracked yet!

Here's a hot link to the old thread:Origins of Pity the Downtrodden Landlord

I must recently heard this song at a music jam in Sydney, Australia, at John and Jenny's house. Nice BBQ!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble, aka Landlady's Daughter

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd:History and anecdotes?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 07:55 PM

Jim Ward would be the person to ask. He used to be involved with Unity Theatre and is often to be seen round and about.

Another lead might possibly be the singer and former EFDSS assistant librarian Clive Woolf. Could have been his grandad..or something.

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd:History and anecdotes?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 07:46 PM

No, but I'd love to know!

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd:History and anecdotes?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 06:08 PM

Stan-

Tom Hall just reminded me of this wonderful update to this thread, which I'd missed while visiting music friends in Australia.

Now the mystery question I'd like to pose to you (which bounced off Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger) is who wrote "Pity the Downtrodden Landlord"? It's usually attributed to a B. Woolf and the tune to Arnold Clayton, and the copyright was held by the Workers Music Association. It was composed some time around 1940 by the Unity Theatre Group for some kind of musical special event and has now spread to folk clubs around the world. Any clue who Woolf was/is?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble
Roll & Go Sea Music
Richmond, Maine

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd:History and anecdotes?
From:
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 01:14 PM

Chanteyranger
small world indeed
I'm at Valley Orchards, 2100 E Washington, #103, Petaluma
CA 94954
707-765-9020

stan kelly

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd:History and anecdotes?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 02:22 PM

Stan -

Shanties From The Seven Seas is now available on CD from Ken and Jan Larner in the UK. Small world; I went to a chantey sing at Hyde Street Pier for my first time back in november, '89, and liked it so much I became a park ranger there beginning in '92, and since 1996 have been leading the monthly chantey sings there aboard the Balclutha and C.A. Thayer. I live in Berkeley.

Sorry for the thread drift, folks. Stan, I didn't realize you live so close and had past connections to the chantey sings. PM me your home contact info if you'd like.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd:History and anecdotes?
From:
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 12:14 AM

Chanteyranger
forgot to mention that Stan Hugill & I did a chantey record for
HMV (that gives my age away?)
I think we each "took the lead" on diverse tracks
For the chorus Stan dragged in the usual suspects
The LP was named after his book Shanties of the 7 seas"
I'll do a google when I have the time
Wonder if HMV's successors (EMI??) kept the master tapes?
BTW Like Bert Lloyd, Stan H had an eye for female pulchritude
Last time we met he had quite a young Canadian lass IN TOW!
which stopped him "chasing" my then wife, Peggy!

ALSO: I recorded Stan for my ECHOES of MERSEYSIDE LP (a special project commissiomed by the L'pool Echo -- Nat Joseph's Transatlantic
Records did the editing/production from months of my roaming with a
Nagra)-- Stan speaks of the L'pool seaman's swagger & I merge in
a snatch of STORMALONG

Where are you residing? Way back I took part in several
chantey sessions here in San Francisco -- on board the
Beuceleth (spelling?) which is still a tourist attraction
in SF harboour

stan kelly

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd:History and anecdotes?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 03:04 PM

Thanks Stan. Fascinating stuff!

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd:History and anecdotes?
From:
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 04:23 AM

Dave Baker -- thanks for the memories
Write to me off-line & we can swap some computer-related yarns

O shit -- I wrote a piece on Shirley Collins which seems not to
have reached MudCat -- got some weirdnesses when I hit Submit
Could it be lurking in a MudCat black hole?

Ain't this fun?

stan kelly

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd:History and anecdotes?
From:
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 04:15 AM

Chanteyranger
I think it was the reaction of a real chanteyman who objected to non-seafarers "putting on the agony" (to borrow a phrase from Pete Seeger)
Hugill's voice, of course, had lost its edge when he started
recording so I always assumed some "sour grapes" in view of Bert &
Ewan's stronger & more vibrant vocal chords!
In the other direction, Bert often scoffed at Stan's lack of
"scholarship" in Stan's magnum opus (Shanties of the Seven Seas)
Not in a nasty way but, again, you can see how clashes occur
BTW Bert once reviewed Dominic's "Posterity be Damned" with
the headline "Nothing to declare"
And even Ewan & Bert often quarrelled eg on the source of FourLoom
Weaver.
Here again you feel it was Bert's superior knowledge versus
the less-informed "folk"
I loved them all

stan kelly

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd:History and anecdotes?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 02:26 AM

Stan -

What did Stan Hugill object to? Was it their use of instrumental accompaniment? The pacing of their singing? (there is a very fast Whup Jamboree on the "Blow Boys Blow" album). Personally, I'm inspired by MacColl and Lloyd's renditions, but then again I'm no Hugill, and I'm very curious as to Hugill's objections.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd:History and anecdotes?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 06:57 PM

Hey! Let's have a bit of a thread drift to Dominic Behan!
I was involved in a rather shortlived Morning Star folk club in Islington in the early 70s. (Another Behan brother Jimmy was a maintenance worker at the paper's premises).

One night Martin Carthy was booked and in the middle of the set, Dominic strolled/staggered in. Martin wisely stepped aside to allow Dominic his "floor spot", after which he loudly exited, presumably to the next pub along Upper Street.

Now, it's my belief that our folk world must allow room for all types of 'music of the people' and I disagreed wholeheartedly with those who tut-tutted at the temporary interruption of Martin's set.

Impolite Dominic may have been but this does not diminish his vallidity. Audience short-sightedness and intolerance may well have contributed to the early demise of this club which did not last long enough to get round to booking Bert Lloyd.