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1954 and All That - defining folk music

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Goose Gander 10 Apr 09 - 03:13 PM
GUEST,glueman 10 Apr 09 - 02:45 PM
Goose Gander 10 Apr 09 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,glueman 10 Apr 09 - 02:31 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 09 - 02:28 PM
John P 10 Apr 09 - 02:26 PM
Goose Gander 10 Apr 09 - 02:06 PM
GUEST,glueman 10 Apr 09 - 01:50 PM
Phil Edwards 10 Apr 09 - 01:39 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 09 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,glueman 10 Apr 09 - 01:07 PM
John P 10 Apr 09 - 12:31 PM
Spleen Cringe 10 Apr 09 - 10:42 AM
Spleen Cringe 10 Apr 09 - 07:04 AM
GUEST,glueman 10 Apr 09 - 05:58 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 10 Apr 09 - 05:36 AM
Phil Edwards 10 Apr 09 - 05:30 AM
GUEST,glueman 10 Apr 09 - 05:04 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 10 Apr 09 - 04:49 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 09 - 04:08 AM
TheSnail 09 Apr 09 - 08:14 PM
Phil Edwards 09 Apr 09 - 08:04 PM
TheSnail 09 Apr 09 - 07:48 PM
Howard Jones 09 Apr 09 - 07:23 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 09 - 05:33 PM
Don Firth 09 Apr 09 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,glueman 09 Apr 09 - 03:37 PM
Howard Jones 09 Apr 09 - 03:25 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 09 - 03:06 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 09 Apr 09 - 03:05 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 09 - 01:16 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 09 Apr 09 - 12:50 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 09 - 12:34 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 09 Apr 09 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 09 - 11:15 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Apr 09 - 10:58 AM
TheSnail 09 Apr 09 - 10:05 AM
GUEST, Sminky 09 Apr 09 - 09:52 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 09 - 09:44 AM
Phil Edwards 09 Apr 09 - 08:18 AM
Phil Edwards 09 Apr 09 - 08:16 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Apr 09 - 07:49 AM
Will Fly 09 Apr 09 - 07:15 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Apr 09 - 06:34 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Apr 09 - 05:14 AM
Howard Jones 09 Apr 09 - 04:54 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Apr 09 - 04:38 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Apr 09 - 04:27 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Apr 09 - 06:16 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Apr 09 - 06:13 PM
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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 03:13 PM

'Either this or that' is a fallacy. Folk as entertainment and folk as a subject of intellectual study have both been discussed in this thread. My feelings: of course folk/traditional music is entertainment - that's how we all ended up here - but is more than JUST entertainment.

But if it's all just entertainment to you, why do YOU care what anyone calls it? If you want to make Folk a pet word for 'stuff you like' then why the attachment to word anyway?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 02:45 PM

The proposition is fiendishly simple - does a definition matter to listening pleasure? Can fulfilled lives be had listening to folk music without any notion of the '54 definitions? Can you like traditional music that fits 1954, stuff that sounds like the songs Bert Lloyd made up and modern acoustic music and derive pleasure from all without troubling where the lines are?

Is folk music principally about communal enjoyment or an academic discipline?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 02:37 PM

Definitions are necessary for reasonable conversation on topics of interest, and they are helpful when booking entertainment as well.

Glueman - does that refer to your poison of choice? I'm an ale man myself. A little bourbon never hurt, either.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 02:31 PM

"The first is necessary for scholarship"

That may be so. I doubt whether those who tune into Folk on 2 and hear they're in for the best of 'folk, roots and acoustic music' engage in some impromtu critical theory before deciding if Mike Harding's proposition is correct.

If I thought this board was about scholarship rather than pleasure I'd have stuck with kerrangandsemiotics.com


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 02:28 PM

"They're cranky and the people who insist on them need to ask 'why?'"
You've been given the reason many times on this thread and elsewhere.
In the end all you are entitled to say is YOU don't need definitions.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 02:26 PM

We just don't need definitions. They're cranky and the people who insist on them need to ask 'why?'

One might ask why someone who thinks this is taking part in a discussion that's about finding definitions???

Also, why does anyone need to ask themselves why they like definitions? It makes as much sense to say that anyone who rejects definitions needs to ask 'why'. Which is to say, no sense at all. Different people are different than each other. Again, it might be good to stop ascribing personality quirks -- or make prescriptions for improvement -- to people based on an intellectual discussion.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 02:06 PM

"The only reason for seeking definition is so that we can have a conversation from a somewhat similar framework."

"We just don't need definitions. They're cranky and the people who insist on them need to ask 'why?'"

And therein lies the fundamental philosophical distinction. The first is necessary for scholarship, the second reflects Steven Colbert's concept of 'truthiness' . . .


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 01:50 PM

I'm anti-line Pip, anywhere and always. Take Jim's stone and mark it with nothing more permanent than chalk.
We just don't need definitions. They're cranky and the people who insist on them need to ask 'why?'


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 01:39 PM

It's my misfortune to be irritated by self-styled gurus who want to draw lines where it suits them without applying serious intellectual rigour

M3 T00!!!!1!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 01:08 PM

"The only reason for seeking definition is so that we can have a conversation from a somewhat similar framework."
Carve this in stone someone.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 01:07 PM

The worry is that definitions are used simply as a barrier to keep 'them' out. Any enthusiam has its adherents, classic car fans will claim nothing but a pre-72 model can be considered a true Jag, or fishing without a split cane Barder isn't really fishing.

It's my misfortune to be irritated by self-styled gurus who want to draw lines where it suits them without applying serious intellectual rigour and I'm far from convinced by what I've heard. I disliked it at school and I don't think my iconoclastic streak will change now. Besides, music - especially music of the people - is too important to be delivered into the hands of gatekeepers to say yea or nay.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: John P
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 12:31 PM

I also think this debate is partly about some people feeling more comfortable with rules, parameters and boundaries and others finding such things claustrophobic. If I'm right, this debate isn't so much about music but about the individual's understanding of music an an extension of their personality type.

Nope. Parameters and boundaries are amorphous for me, and rules that are more important than the situation they apply to are nothing but a chain around the neck. I like clear definitions, but that's a long way from liking rules and boundaries. I think what I'm trying to say is that definitions, for me, are more in the head, and boundaries carry a connotation of having more to do with how I live my life. Perhaps it would be better to stop ascribing personality quirks to people based on which side of an intellectual debate they are on.

I'm reminded of a co-worker who is a yoga instructor. She was grousing about all the things that are referred to as yoga but aren't, including some things I would have accepted as part of yoga without question. I told her that it was the same with me for folk music -- lots of things get called folk music that aren't. She was amazed that I didn't consider Joni Mitchell or Cat Stevens folk music. It was an interesting moment for both of us, finding out that things we take for granted are often not accepted as such by aficionados. It's hard to have a clear conversation when the same words mean different things to different people. Fortunately, I don't feel any need for anyone else to agree with my definitions of anything. The only reason for seeking definition is so that we can have a conversation from a somewhat similar framework.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 10:42 AM

Can I just add that no value judgement (such as rule followers bad, anarchists good - or vice versa) is implied above... and the proposition is based on the premise that most people on either side of the debate, as well as the outfielders such as Snail and myself, all identify as people who enjoy traditional music(s).


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 07:04 AM

Me, I don't want any thing accepted as anything. I'm more than happy with the 1954 definition as a description of traditional music(s). I just don't think that's what the folk scene gives us. The seeds of this were surely sown at the start of the revival when it was decreed acceptable to write new songs in the style of whichever tradition you were part of (which seems reasonable). This is, however, a very subjective thing. One person's traditional style song is another person's crock of shite that shouldn't be allowed near 'folk' with a bargepole. Like Pip, I'd rather listen to Espers than, say, Vin Garbutt, but I know who the folk club scene would accept and who they wouldn't. Yet I would say that Espers' tunes, once all the marvellous psychedelic flimflammery is stripped away, sound more like ersatz folk ballads than Vin's or some of the other folk club singer songwriters do. But as with all these things, once you move away from the body of work that is considered the tradition, it all enters the realm of individual perception.

I also think this debate is partly about some people feeling more comfortable with rules, parameters and boundaries and others finding such things claustrophobic. If I'm right, this debate isn't so much about music but about the individual's understanding of music an an extension of their personality type. Using Snail (sorry Bryan) as an example, despite not actually knowing him, in terms of taste and activity he appears a bit of a classic 1954er, but he clearly has a healthily anarchic streak that rails against being boxed in as such.... marks out of ten for this pithy analysis, Bryan?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 05:58 AM

The cult of personality argument. If the arrivistes bit refers to me, I'm in no effort to have 'my favourite music' become folk. I believer the word is fairly useless nowadays as a descriptor and have no 'favourite music' anyway.
How can a C21st sensibility seriously have such a thing if they're over 18?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 05:36 AM

On reviewing this thread I can't help noting that on one side of the argument we've got people like Don Firth and Jim Carroll who have 'earned their spurs', 'sweated at the coal face' or ... well, choose your metaphor, met and listened to the luminaries - both traditional singers and revivalists, read all the books and thought long and hard.

On the other side we've got people who are desperate to have their favourite musical forms classified as 'Folk'(why, oh why??) and start throwing insults around when they can't get their own way.

I know whose judgement I trust!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 05:30 AM

Snail, you said earlier on that the Lewes Arms club aims to

"provide a programme which reflects the club's long-established interest in traditional music and song and contemporary folk music/song derived from the tradition."

Jim says,

"Not only do I have no objection to modern songs being performed at folk clubs, I think that the clubs would be little more than museums without the input of new songs. ... As far as we were concerned, the folk tradition was not just to be enjoyed for what it was, but also as a template to create new songs."

I said a couple of comments ago,

"On an average night at the Beech you can expect to hear three or four contemporary songs, along with around 20 traditional. I think that balance works well, & hope it stays like that."

Anyone who didn't know better would think that we were all in agreement.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 05:04 AM

Glad that cat is out of the bag. If it's not strictly traditional we're in the heady position of mere individuals deciding on what's played based on style, context, location with only the line differing on preference. Which is what some of us have argued happens in the last 700 posts.

Phew!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 04:49 AM

I was born in 1954.......Does that make me traditional or contemporary?
Do I care?
Not really....


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 04:08 AM

Yes, I do believe the clubs can and should present material that is not strictly 'folk' I always have and I believe that this was the aim of the people who set up the revival in the first place - one I have always gone along with 100%.
But I believe that what goes on in the clubs should lie within recognisable parameters, if for no other reason than those we hope to attract will know what they are being attracted to. Also, so those of us who are already involved have a choice of what we listen to. Can anybody seriously claim that what SS is proposing falls within any parameters and gives us any choice other than 'come in, sit down and take whatever type of music we choose to give you - and if you don't like it, don't come back'? The fact that you have chosen 'folk' as a description for your club commits you to presenting something that we can recognise as such.
For me, there are two sides to this question. On the one hand, as a reseacher I need to be clear of what I mean by 'folk' if I am writing or speaking on the subject, which I do regularly. I also need to relate the subject to its fellow disciplines, folklore, folk custom, folktale, folk music, folk dance, all of which have fallen within our scope of work over the last thirty-odd years. No problem here; collections are still being published, articles and books written, conferences and seminars held, all more or less adhering to the 54 definition. Because of this there is consensus - we can communicate.
On the other hand, I came to folk through the clubs. I still get an enormous amount of pleasure from listening to the music that first attracted me back in 1962 (a 21st birthday present of MacColl's Chorus From The Gallows).
I would very much like to be able to point to the folk clubs and say to others who haven't yet had that pleasure, "there, try a puff on that". I don't feel I can do that any longer with many of the clubs being what they have become - cultural dustbins.
There is a further aspect to this.
I grew up with the idea that people like me never produced anything of value artistically; it was hammered into me at school that if I wanted culture I would have to turn to my 'betters' for it. I was actually told by a science teacher that all I needed when I left school was to be able to tot up my pay packet at the end of the week.
Then people like Ewan and Bert introduced me to this huge body of songs, music and tales and told me it was made and shaped by people just like me.
That's a gift I will treasure till I run out of puff.
I will respond to Bryan's request in full later.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 08:14 PM

Just seeking clarification. The argument seems to be - Folk Clubs should put on Folk Music. Folk Music is defined by the 1954 conference. If it is acceptable to perform music that falls outside the 1954 definition, then what is allowable is purely subjective and SS can have whatever he wants.

1954 + Ewan MacColl doesn't work for me as a definition.

Really must get to bed. It's going to be a busy weekend.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 08:04 PM

Why the Perry Mason act, Snail? I don't think Jim's ever said anything different.

My own feeling is that setting up a club with a 1954 Only policy would be setting it up to fail - not least because the MC would have to keep reminding people of it, and bad feeling would ensue. If you've got a 1954 Mostly policy - or an Anything Else Mostly policy - it doesn't neeed enforcing; the regulars will lead by example and everyone else can pick it up. On an average night at the Beech you can expect to hear three or four contemporary songs, along with around 20 traditional. I think that balance works well, & hope it stays like that.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 07:48 PM

Let me make sure that I've got this clear, Jim. Are you saying that you consider it acceptable for some songs, that aren't folk songs according to the 1954 definition, to be sung in folk clubs?

While you are at it, would you like to respond to my post of 24 Mar 09 - 11:48 AM, before you went on holiday?

Won't be able to reply for the next few days as I'm off to the Gosport & Fareham Easter Festival to help run some workshops in my continuing campaign to lower standards. All concertina players welcome.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 07:23 PM

My apologies, Jim, I should have realised you would have a broader view.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 05:33 PM

Can I clarify my own position here. My greatest influence was Ewan MacColl, someone who was in at the beginning of the revival, who breathed life into 137 of the Child ballads, who introduced me to these, and to the bothy songs, the industrial repertoire and the whole vast range of the folk repertoire, and who WROTE AT LEAST TWICE AS MANY SONGS BASED ON TRADITIONAL STYLES AS ANY SONGWRITER IN MY LIFETIME. Not only do I have no objection to modern songs being performed at folk clubs, I think that the clubs would be little more than museums without the input of new songs.
A major part of our work in The Critics Group was songwriting classes; Peggy produced New City Songster, which ran for almost 20 years and into 20 issues - all contemporary songs mainly based on folk styles. Ewan, Peggy and other members of the group were constantly being asked by clubs that booked them not to sing their contemporary - and refused, but would rather turn down a booking than comply.
Of my own repertoire of around 300 songs when I was singing, around 25% of them were contemporary (though as hard as I tried I never managed to write one).
Our only stipulation in including them in our activities was that they were not, and would probably never become folk songs. As far as we were concerned, the folk tradition was not just to be enjoyed for what it was, but also as a template to create new songs.
Pat's and my intentions when we embarked on collecting was not just to record songs, but also as much information on the tradition as we could - more than half of our collection consists of interviews with traditional singers.
Contrary to what we had been told, we found singers who did discriminate, who did separate their varying repertoirs into catergories, maybe not using the same terminology as we did (though many did refer to themselves as 'folk' and 'traditional' singers). Walter Pardon was foremost among the singers in doing this and filled tapes with his opinions on the subject.
As far as we were concerned they were traditional singers (singers from a tradition) singing traditional folk songs; folk referring to the people from whom the songs originated, tradition to the filtering, adapting and remaking of the songs that filled the gap between how they started out and how they ended up when they got to us.
As tempting as it is, tradition just doesn't hack it as far as what goes on in the clubs. The ones I have been involved in have always presented a mixture of old and new songs, but these have always borne a recognisable relationship to each other.
This is a far cry from using the term as a dustbin to dump anything that will not fit into any other catergory, or to accommodate singers of other types of songs who, frankly, were not good enough as performers to make it in their preferred genre.
This latter was summed up perfectly for me some years ago by a very nice man I was chatting to at the bar, who had just sang a light opera piece (not very well). He told me "I like coming here, I don't get asked to sing anywhere else"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 03:45 PM

I'm not quite sure what a "designated folk context" consists of. I have sung what I thought were folk songs in living rooms, and for audiences in meeting rooms, at banquets, in classrooms, in gymnasiums, in the lounge in one of the women's residence halls at Seattle University, in Seattle University's Pigott Auditorium, in a ballroom at the University of Washington Student Union Building, in another ballroom in the Edmond Meany Hotel, at a meeting of retired airline stewardesses, in parks, on the deck of the schooner Wawona, on a dock at the Port of Everett, in a library auditorium, several times in a church parish house and a couple of times in the church itself. Oh, also in the Boeing Airplane Company lunchroom. I once sang in a strip club in San Francisco. I didn't know it was a strip club when they hired me, and I didn't go over all that well; the customers weren't there to hear folk songs.

Did any of these qualify as a "designated folk context?" I can't say that I heard anyone declare any such designation at any of these places. . . .   Perhaps what I sang were not folk songs at all. If not, what were they?

Is it the context that defines the songs sung there as folk songs? Or is it the folk songs that define the venue as a folk context?

(. . . chicken—> egg—> chicken—> egg—> chicken—> egg. . . .)

####

Having just read the 1954 definition for the eleventy-fourteenth time, I find that I am in agreement with it. Works for me.

My bookshelves contain many song books, including the collections of Sharp, the Lomaxes, Carl Sandburg, Evelyn Kendrick Wells, Richard Chase, MacEdward Leach, and many others, along with songbooks consisting of songs recorded by well-known and not so well-known singers (Joan Baez, Peggy Seeger, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Tom Glaser, et al). I didn't just learn songs from these books, I read the texts as well, texts written by collectors of folk songs, scholars in the field, ethnomusicologists. In addition, I studied at the University of Washington with Dr. David C. Fowler, a ballad scholar and author of A Literary History of the Popular Ballad and several other books. In the early 1960s, I attended the Berkeley Folk Festivals, where I attended workshops with luminaries in the field, performers such as Almeda Riddle, Jean Redpath, Joan Baez, Sam Hinton, Mike Seeger, Mississippi John Hurt, Doc Watson, Peggy Seeger, Ewan MacColl and scholars and collectors such as Archie Green, Alan Lomax, and Charles Seeger, and often had opportunities for informal conversations with them. So I'm coming at this with a bit more behind me than the liner notes on my record collection.

And I have passed on what I have learned as a performer, a teacher, and as a participant in workshops.

As far as definitions and word usage is concerned, if I want to know the meaning of a term in physics, I ask a physicist. If I want to know the meaning of a medical term, I ask a doctor. I may be funny that way, but I find that sort of thing helps me avoid talking a lot of nonsense.

But—be that as it may.

Where do I fit in all of this? Do I regard myself as a "folk singer?" Not really, for a number of reasons. I am urban-born and raised and most of the music I heard as I grew up was on the radio, and ran the gamut from "Your Hit Parade" to "Grand Ole Opry" to "The Metropolitan Opera" and back around again, including, from time to time, a few folk songs (Burl Ives' radio program in the 1940s, "The Wayfaring Stranger" and Alan Lomax's folk music programs on "American School of the Air"). I did not learn songs at my grandmother's knee. Although I had no singing ambitions really, when I was in my late teens, I took some singing lesson, largely because some of my friends did (one of them went on to sing in Broadway musicals, and two went into opera).

My up close introduction to folk music occurred shortly after I entered the University of Washington (majoring in English Literature with ambitions of becoming a writer) and met several people who were into folk music, sang, played the guitar, etc. One of these was Sandy Paton, a fine singer who is currently the head of Folk-Legacy Records. Determining early on that I would like to make a career for myself as a singer of folk songs and ballads, I began learning songs at a great rate, took more voice lessons, and supplemented the folk guitar I learned from Walt Robertson by taking classic guitar lessons.

Soon I started getting paid to sing. I did some programs about folk music on educational television, then began singing regularly in the clubs and coffeehouses that were beginning to open, did concerts, folk festivals, more television. . . .

I am a performer. An entertainer. Simply put, I am a singer-guitarist whose repertoire consists primarily (but not exclusively) of traditional folk songs and ballads. I am also something of a ballad scholar, because I find this knowledge aids me immeasurably in my ability to perform these songs and, avoiding the tendency to deliver a ten minute lecture by way of introducing a three minute song, I find that my audiences do appreciate learning something about backgrounds of the songs.

I sing these songs, not because they are "folk" or "traditional," I sing them because, for various reasons, I like them. I like to sing them and I like to hear others sing them, and I find that enough people, both "folkies" and "non-folkies, " like them sufficiently well for me to have made at least a marginal living by singing them.

My quibble with the desire of some people to broaden the definition of "folk" (and some people want to do it to "traditional" also) to include anything they want to include, along with songs they have written themselves, first, renders the word essentially meaningless, and second, it strikes me as a disingenuous attempt to imply that the songs they have written have characteristics and qualities which they may or may not have and tries to stamp them with an imprimatur that they have not yet earned. It is misleading, and rather than increasing the "folk community," this practice can drive away people when they expect to hear something in line with the 1954 definition and find that what they are being offered instead is something quite different.

And it can give a false impression of what I, or other singers like me, actually sing. If someone hears that I sing "folk songs," then under the impression that I'm a singer-songwriter, they may stay away, when, in actuality, I sing the kind of songs they like. Or it may draw people to a performance only to hear me sing a bunch of hoary old ballads instead of hearing new songs, penned by myself, that they expected to hear.

I believe in truth in packaging. If clubs who advertise themselves as "folk clubs" were to adopt different words ("traditional folk" and "contemporary folk" for example), or at least make some attempt to make clarify what actually goes on there, it might alleviate all those cuts and bruises that occur at the door when people dashing for the exit collide with people coming in.

Just a modest suggestion.

Frankly, it makes little difference to me. As long as there are friends who like to get together to sing and listen to the same kind of songs that I like to sing and listen to, and as long as there are enough people around who want to come and hear me when I perform because they know what I do and know what to expect, then I'm fine.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 03:37 PM

Threads with 1954 in the title are like a bad marriage, both sides pressing the other's button, the recepient pleased to have said button pressed to give them another opportunity to state their case in a fractionally different way. Each party convinced of the absolute rightness of their case, evidence marshalled, the tiniest of nits picked until sated with their own excess they retire to avoid contact until the next opportunity.

Mudcat 1954 counselling anyone?


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 03:25 PM

A magical mystery tour or a musical lucky dip does sound like it could be quite exciting. But why describe it as a "folk [insert context of choice here]"?

If I go to a jazz club, I can expect to hear jazz. If I go to a classical concert, I can expect to hear classical. If I go to the opera, I can expect to hear opera. If the local pub offers a "soul night" or "60's night" I know what to expect. So why is it apparently unreasonable to expect to be able to go to a folk club and to hear some folk music?

I am prepared to take a broader view of "folk" than Jim, although I am sympathetic to his point of view. But accepting that "folk" now means more than "traditional" does not mean accepting that it includes absolutely everything.

Actually, I don't think the situation is quite as either Jim or SS are painting. I think there are still plenty of venues where you will hear both 1954 traditional and "folk", and not very much acoustic pop.

I still think it's necessary to try to establish a boundary between folk and other music. SS's point of view is that if you believe it's folk then it is folk, which has a certain hippyish charm but is ultimately a purely personal definition which is of no help when trying to communicate with others about the music we all claim to share an interest in. But after more than 700 posts I think it is clear we are not going to agree on this.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 03:06 PM

"The organisers of the above"
So how do we know what we are going to be given when we pay our pennies at the door - presumably anything from Come Into The Garden Maud to ballads of more than five minutes duration.
"Observation would suggest the latter to be the general case."
But you've given us 'Maud' - where does she fit into the scheme of things.
You have carefully sidestepped all the arkward questions (or backflipped, as in the case of knowing what to expect at a folk club), so I ask again - if one of your 'designated' organisers put on a string quartette playing Schubert's 'Trout' (or Ken Dodd and The Fleetwood Choral Society performing The Messiah) would that then fall under the 'folk' umnbrella?
What do you do about the fragmentation that could (and in some cases has) taken place; what are we passing on what do we point to and say - "that's what I mean"?
"I suspect The Revival defined the parameters of Folk as we understand them today."
Why should you suspect that? The revival stumbled across folk song at a time when the world was listening to Max Bygraves singing 'I'm A Pink Toothbrush'. You can't imagine the relief (and pride) in finding something that was ours rather than coming from the music industry's sausage machine, yet you would happily take that away from us by not just ignoring what it says on the tin, but tearing the label off altogether.   
As I said, the term folk has been used to describe the cultural input of 'ordinary' people like me, and probably you, for 160 years. It has been used to define the creations of those peole since the beginning of the 20th century. The revival did not have to define any parameters, they were firmly in place when they came to the music and have remained so ever since, despite the reactionary attempts to take the credit for our music away from us.
Sam Larner and Harry Cox had no objection to being described as folk singers; the term was well in place when HMV put out records of Joseph Taylor.
Walter described himself as such and his songs as folk songs He had been differentiating between his varios types of song since he came home from the army in 1946 - we have his notebooks of songs to prove it.
Jim Carroll
PS If it is 'merely a folk singer' why is it so important that you include wha you do as 'folk'?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 03:05 PM

The 1956 Definition Of Folk


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 01:16 PM

You can call me Jim


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 12:50 PM

Is name calling all you have to offer, Carroll, it appears so to me.
Your own arrogance sweats itself out of every single one of you missives, so, please.....anyway, I'll leave you with this, with apologies to Richard Thompson and Dave Swarbrick.

"Rise for the hangman"
Your pleasure is that we should rise
You're the judge and the jury
At this jester's assize.

By the by, the 1954 definition?...irrelevant..it makes a great bitching post, thus avoiding having to look at some of the real issues facing the "folk" community (such as it is)suitable venues, or lack thereof is one I can think of right of the top of my head, attracting people to said venues, (people who don't know about nor do give a tinkers toss for "1954")


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 12:34 PM

I speak for me and no-one else, nor have I ever claimed to; I listen to music on the basis of my taste and judgement, nobody elses.
If you want to indulge in a Magical Mystery Tour, feel free to do so and don't impoes it on the rest of us. Where did this 'Carroll' come from - my name is Jim Carroll - just because I beat you four nil at spelling.
For ***** sake grow up - arrogant twat.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 12:12 PM

"To suggest otherwise is an affront on our taste and judgement."

Sounds more like it's an afront to Carroll's tastes and judgement to me, because, and I can't over emphasise this point, my taste and judgement are far from affronted, so, please, Carroll, stop trying to speak for everybody else, because you don't!

I like the ideas of A Magical Mystery Tour and a lucky dip, makes life far more exciting (hmmmm...Magical Mystery Tour played on melodeons, fiddle, and other folk oriented instruments...there's a thought...)


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 11:15 AM

Sminky
This thread is riddled with references to folk venues as part of the definition - I believe I dealt with both.
'Even the 1954 Definition doesn't outline Folk in terms of genre'
Does it have to? No definition, no matter how comprehensive, tells me everything I need to know about a subject but merely acts at a pointer to where I should look if I wish to understand the subject further.
Your 'designated' certainly doesn't - hence the gross inaccracy of your statement that you know what to expect at a folk club (personally I go to my local for conviviality and to a clearly defined music venue to listen to the music of my choice.
I used to know, more or less, what to expect in a folk club; I stopped going when that ceased to be the case. The changes that took place in the revival (it's often forgotten thet that is what we are part of - a revival of folksong) robbed me of my right to choose what I listened to-in the unlikely event of your idea becoming accepted, that would only formalise this situation.
You said earlier that in going to a folk club we should leave our preconceptions and expectations at the door (I think that's how you put it). This is nonsense; nobody does that, whether it is classical music, jazz.... whatever we choose to listen to. To suggest otherwise is an affront on our taste and judgement. Magical Mystery Tour might have been alright for The Beatles - but sorry, I want to be able to choose. I've long outgrown lucky dips.

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 10:58 AM

Can we either define this 'designated folk context' or recognise it as the nonsense I believe it to be.

A Designated Folk Context = Folk Club, Folk Festival, Folk Radio Show, Folk Record Label, Folk Forum, Folk Magazine, Folk Media etc.

Who designates the context

The organisers of the above and those who subscribe and buy into it on whatever level.

and does it mean that anybody can set up a folk club and claim that anything that happens there is 'folk song' or has there to be some general consensus (ie definition) of what folk is before the context becomes 'designated'?

Observation would suggest the latter to be the general case. These people are Folkies; Folk Fans and Enthusiasts; very often performers in their own right, facilitating a context in the name of folk.   

Context is a good deal more than the physical space, and entirely depends on the designation of the occasion. For example, during The Fylde Folk Festival the Marine Hall in Fleetwood is designated as a folk venue; on the stage I have seen such folk acts as Jez Lowe & Debby McClatchy. On New Year, however, on the same stage, I saw, for my sins, Ken Dodd. The Christmas before last I saw The Fleetwood Choral Society performing The Messiah. Interestingly, one of the singers (my father-in-law as it happens) regularly sings at our Folk Club here in Fleetwood too, but always Traditional.

When I say Folk has always been a matter of context, I'm referring to the conditions of the 1954 Definition which are everything to do with context and nothing to do with genre - social context, cultural context, human context, the context of folk process.

I suspect The Revival defined the parameters of Folk as we understand them today. Besides which I see neither Sam Larner or Walter Parson as being merely Folk Singers - they are Traditional Singers, and thus their songs are defined by a higher criteria (dare I say the 1954 Definition?) than anything we might call Folk.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 10:05 AM

"and doest promyse that when two or three be gathered together in thy name thou wilt graunt their requestes"

"Wild Rover"

"Black Velvet Band"

"Fields of Athenry"

"Streets of London"


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 09:52 AM

Well, even I can tell the difference between 'the venue' (which is immaterial) and 'the context'.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 09:44 AM

Can we either define this 'designated folk context' or recognise it as the nonsense I believe it to be.
Who designates the context and does it mean that anybody can set up a folk club and claim that anything that happens there is 'folk song' or has there to be some general consensus (ie definition) of what folk is before the context becomes 'designated'?
Is there a precedent for a venue being the defining factor of what goes on.
Does everything that happens on the stage of the Royal Opera House automatically become opera because of the venue?
My first regular music venue was The Cavern in Liverpool when it was a jazz club. The group that was eventually to become The Beatles regularly featured in the interval spot - were they a jazz group?
I ask again how do you deal with the inevitable fragmentation of the music if the only defining factor is that it is performed at one of these 'designated venues'?
"context has always been the defining factor of which music was called Folk"
On the contrary, context has never been the, or even a defining factor of folk.
Sam Larner, along with his neighbours, sang reguarly in the back room of The Fisherman's Return in Winterton, yet he told Charles Parker and MacColl that "the serious singing was done at home or during quiet periods at sea.
There were recognised singing and music venues here in the west of Ireland, usually, but not always in pubs. The context here would be a gathering of friends, neighbours, passing strangers, locals returning from abroad, visiting Travellers...... a whole bunch of different people. These events might, but usually weren't planned in advance, or regular gatherings, but they could happen at a whim. The crossroads dances were also regular occasions for singing. All these would be in the context of a gathering of neighbours and friends, but singing would also take place at cattle markets and horse fairs among complete strangers. At the other end of the scale, most singing was done in farmhouse kitchens among intimte friends and family.
Walter Pardon's only experience of singing, prior to his being taken up by the revival, was at home during Christmas parties and Harvest suppers; but his uncle, the source of most of his songs, sang at social gatherings following meetings of the newly revived Agricultural Workers Union.
I wonder how many of these would qualify as 'designated folk contexts'.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 08:18 AM

PS The guitar part is Jailhouse Rock -
ba-DUMMM... pow! pow!


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 08:16 AM

I was listening to Boy Child (the song), as it happens, from my own compilation of bits from the first four albums - just his own compositions, and not all of those (I remember thinking Montague Terrace was fantastic, years ago, but now it's the stillness & the eerie strings of Such A Small Love that stick with me).

I've just recently bought the first four albums & worked my way through them; haven't got TTBCI yet. The first two have major cheese problems, although even on them there are tracks that sound like bulletins from another universe. The third is only really let down by the Brel songs (which is saying something), and the fourth is just superb - rises to Climate of Hunter levels in places. I prefer CofH to Tilt, I have to admit, and haven't yet got round to hearing the Drift - it sounds difficult *and* depressing. I'll get to it eventually, one fine day when my serotonin level's high.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 07:49 AM

what an amazing song

Scott Walker pointed out that the guitar part is a perversion of Blue Suede Shoes...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 07:15 AM

As you say - Jesse Garon Presley - and what an amazing song...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 06:34 AM

Correction:

and the scenario of the ghost of Elvis Presley discussing 9/11 with the spectre of his dead twin Aaron is almost too much to bear.

Elvis's dead twin bother (died at birth) was Jesse, and not Aaron, which was (as any fule kno) Elvis's middle name. Here's the song anyway:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYyOkQUyJZM


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 05:14 AM

Howard: you started this thread by asking to define folk music.

Wrong! Go back to my OP & you'll see that my original title was simply 1954 and All That. It was added too by Joe as he felt it wasn't clear enough as to what the thread was about. In the OP I outline my intentions quite clearly:

I'm opening this up specifically to discuss what relevance, if any, the 1954 definition has to do with what actually happens in the name of Folk in 2009.

*

Howard: What I do disagree with is your contention that all kinds of music can therefore be considered "folk".

Even the 1954 Definition doesn't outline Folk in terms of genre; indeed, context has always been the defining factor of which music was called Folk and which wasn't, thus do we have the Folk Music of every culture on Planet Earth, in all its ever increasing richness & diversity reflecting as many influences and cross-cultural pollinations you might conceive of but it all might be described as Folk Music. All I'm doing is taking a look at what goes on over here in Designated Folk Contexts (Cubs, Festivals, yada yada yada) and concluding that Folk remains a matter of context rather than genre.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 04:54 AM

But, SS, you started this thread by asking to define folk music. If you're saying that one might hear all kinds of music in a "folk context", I can't disagree - those are the facts, although it tells us more about the events than the music. What I do disagree with is your contention that all kinds of music can therefore be considered "folk".


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 04:38 AM

none of which were perfect but were all far nearer the real thing than the 'make-it-up-as-you-go-along' approach being proposed here.

Jim - no one's proposing anything, least of me, just observing & accommodating the facts of Folk as they stand - and accepting that Folk is as Folk does, and being happy we might still call our beloved songs Traditional.


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 04:27 AM

I'm listening to Scott Walker.

Who also ranks highly in the Sinister Supporter Pantheon of Godlike Genii - in fact, wasn't it Julian Cope's 1981 Scott Walker compilation that gave us the phrase Godlike Genius?

So what Scott you been listening to, Pip? I tend to be happiest with the revised version of Boy Child - the one that begins with Montague Terrace & includes Angels of Ashes. I don't ordinarily go for Best Ofs but it is my belief that Boy Child represents something of a hidden masterwork, bringing together the jewels from his first five (seriously flawed IMO) albums into something of a cohesive whole - although at 70 minutes I think I might have added Two Ragged Soldiers and Two Weeks Since You've Gone. Check out the video we made for We Came Through:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_ktTtAZfV4

This was serendipitous, as we were listening to Boy Child whilst filming our ascent to the top of the car park & We Came Through lasted exactly the duration of the journey. Note the Mondegreen in the lyrics though - these come from the Boy Child CD cover which gives when error dies whereas it is Guevara dies, which pre-echoes Bolivia 95 on Tilt in which in a typical Scott Walker scenario we find a soldier praying over Che's corpse. Here's the original production footage & sound as filmed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqf3TRP7XYs

I bought The Drift on the day of its release when we were on holiday in Norfolk a few years back; a work of intense beauty, although I must admit it doesn't get played all that much. I especially love the Donald Duck Fuck You and the scenario of the ghost of Elvis Presley discussing 9/11 with the spectre of his dead twin Aaron is almost too much to bear. I played Tilt the other day whilst putting the finishing touches to my Green Man mask (I regard Farmer in the City and Bolivia 95 as amongst the most perfect songs ever written) followed by Climate of Hunter - which is an unfinished masterpiece but still engages the heart.

I could talk about Scott Walker all day, and what a fine day it would be...


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 06:16 PM

Fraid It wasn't in a designated folk context, so it doesn't count.jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 06:13 PM

I've just been listening to Mozart (47-45-42) and playing Freecell.
Wonder where that leaves the definition.
Jim Carroll


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