BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:55 AM

"What gives Israel the right to bomb a country for the crimes of a few citizens?"

I don't know that anything necessarily give sthem the 'right'. But, Lebanon has alloed Hexbollah to patro the border. A big mistake. The rocket attacks came from Lebanon. So if you were Israel, who the hell would you attack?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:50 AM

If the Israelis wanted to destroy the infrastructure of Lebanon, they would destroy its four power-generating facilities. You do not 'get' it. Until Hezbollah is tossed put on its ass--disarmed--the Israelis will NOT STOP!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:44 AM

It was reported on the news this morning that the UN has failed to reach an agreement for a ceasefire in the Lebanon.The country's prime minister is desperate for such a ceasefire and has made urgent pleas for the conflict to stop as 104 mainly Lebanese civilians including infants have been killed in the Israeli shelling and bombing.

Lebanese diplomats in New York have blamed the USA for blocking the ceasefire proposals.

Meanwhile Israel continues to wage war against the imfrastructure of the Lebanon attacking ,shops,the port,vehicles,petrol stations,motorway bridges,and even a lighthouse.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:37 AM

I agree with Freda' statement, "Speaking of cop outs, I think the creation of Israel was a huge cop out by European countries after the second world war. Rather than work to eliminate racism in their countries, to protect people from all backgrounds (as Germany has since tried so hard to do) they sent the problem elsewhere."

I must add, however, that was then and this is now.

Yes, its difficult not to take sides, especially when one side or the other says or does something that harms the people of the Middle East. I am especially alarmed at the response of Stephen Harper (Canadian MP) and George Bush. Where does he get off telling Syria what to do? Wasn't it Bush who wanted Syria out of Lebanon? Now that Lebanon and Palestine have had democratic elections, Bush has decided he doesn't like the results. When is he going to get it that the U.S. and its allies are unwelcome?

What gives Israel the right to bomb a country for the crimes of a few citizens? It was not the government of Lebanon who kidnapped the Israelis. Terrorists are criminals and do not speak for the citizens of Lebanon or any other country. The only result of Israeli aggression will be the creation of more terrorists.

Yes, Freda, it time for some listening. Unfortunately, the U.S., Great Britain, Canada and Israel cannot hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:36 AM

The Israelis could be killing one helluva lot more people if the slaughter of civilians was their purpose. They have the firepower to do that. I think what is happening is that most folks really do not understand the Israeli mindset to do with this. Understand, they will NOT back down until they have their soldiers returned. I do not see Hezbollah being reined in, and this is about breaking the 'power' of Hezbollah. The brinksmanship is about to start with Iran. And if Iran thinks it's not reachable by the Israelis, they are in for one helluva shock.

There is for the first time in Israel a leadership that is not military. Fact: they do not know where the 'edge' is. I would suggest that by mid week, some neighbouring countries will realize that maybe they should start being scared, because the Israelis are mad as hell and there will be some serious shit-kicking handed out. The loss of life in the coming war will shock people. And I think at the end of the war, even the Israelis will weep for the destruction that has happened. This is a no-win situation.

Hezbollah is going to find out about the extermination they have promised the Israelis. Unfortunately, the people they use as shields will have to find out first.

These fu#kin' heroes of Hezbollah who have said they'd 'take the war into the open': Please do. Get the hell away from civilians and go at it. But, no, that is not the Hezbollah we know, is it? They will let kids stand between them and the Israelis. And they will gladly let those kids get killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 12:40 AM

"Israel does not seek to wipe our her neighbors, nor is she capable of it"

That is not at all obvious, Robomatic.

Last Wednesday Hezbollah's border raid captured two Israeli soldiers and left eight more dead last Wednesday. Hezbollah on Saturday launched rockets at Tiberias in the deepest such attack on Israel. Four Israelis were injured.

Israeli raids have killed more than 80 Lebanese. Israeli air-to-ground and gunboat shells hit a bridge on the road from the Beirut to the airport, south of the city centre. Hezbollah's offices in Beirut were destroyed. Hezbollah injured four Israelis in cross-border rocket attacks on Tiberias. Israel has deployed Patriot interceptor missiles in the northern port city of Haifa which was hit by rockets earlier. It also warned Lebanon not to fire on Israeli aircraft.

Israel expanded its bombardment on Saturday, attacking a large number of targets across the country. Warplanes fired rockets on the Lebanon-Syrian border and hit the centre of Beirut for the first time on Saturday.

Eighteen Lebanese civilians, including women and children, were killed on the coastal road to the southern city of Tyre when their vehicles were struck by missiles as they fled a village.

Thousands of foreigners are trying to leave Beirut, leaving its economy in tatters. 22,o00 Australians are in Beirut and can't get out.

The Israeli Army has said any responsibility for endangering the civilian population rested with Hezbollah.

US President George W Bush put the blame squarely on Hezbollah and said Syria should act to curb the group's operations.

back to the fingerpointing.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 12:15 AM

"So it was Sharon who could order 8,000 Israelis out of the Gaza strip in a unilateral withdrawal. As an architect behind the illegal settlements, he had the authority to order the retreat - and send the Israeli army after those who refused. He had become persuaded that the best way to protect Israel was to retreat, and no one could accuse him of cowardice. It is hard to think that, just last Christmas, Israel and Palestine were so close to peace.

Rather than take the chance to live peacefully in the newly evacuated Gaza, Hamas used it as a position to make a raid on a border post and kidnap Gilad Shalit, a 19-year-old soldier. When Lebanese Hezbollah kidnapped another two, his resolve was tested on two fronts. Hence he has launched air strikes on Lebanon, and has sworn to get the hostages back. Without Sharon's reputation, Olmert has to make his own."

Excellent article, IMO, here.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:48 PM

Freda:

You are stating a common misconception when these arguments arise. It is true that Israel's neighbors have seeked to wipe her out, including her inhabitants "into the sea". In population and wealth they are more than capable of it. Israel does not seek to wipe our her neighbors, nor is she capable of it (Unless it is indeed true that she is nuclear armed in which case I think it would mean her self-destruction as well).

It is not enough to make the brush broad enough to make it impossible to distinguish between the sides. It is possible, and it should be obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:06 PM

Hear, hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:54 PM

"Those who argue that both sides in the conflict are equally to blame are copping out big time."

No, they are refusing to see one side as evil perpetrators and the other as innocent victims.

Until both sides take responsibility for their actions and stop finger pointing, playing victim, and using that as an excuse for further massacres, bombings and other violations, this conflict will continue unresolved leaving a trail of bodies on both sides.

Both "sides" have documents attempting to prove their historical right to the land. Both sides document the horrible crimes by the other side against their people.

I have a colleague who worked as a negotiator in Northern Ireland. His job was to get people listening to each other, genuinely listening to their experiences until they felt someone was finally listening.

Speaking of cop outs, I think the creation of Israel was a huge cop out by European countries after the second world war. Rather than work to eliminate racism in their countries, to protect people from all backgrounds (as Germany has since tried so hard to do) they sent the problem elsewhere.

Any Israeli listening to me talking about listening would laugh - they are surrounded by countries who are determined to wipe them out. Just as they seem determined to wipe others out. It is a horrible Catch 22.

It is a cop out to take a side in this process. I admire the people on both sides who are working towards reconciliation. That is the only side to take.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:57 PM

Hezbollah has to cease its attacks too. The headquarters was hit in Shiite neighbourhood. Like, no one knew it was the headquarters, right? No one here but us innocents.

"Hezbollah said its leader Hassan Nasrallah was unhurt after Israeli missiles blew up his home in Beirut and one of the group's offices. Israeli officials acknowledged that the strikes were aimed at killing him."

So, the Lebanese government doesn't support terrorist action?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:31 PM

Problem is the vast majority of the UN will want to put pressure on Israel. To do that you would have to convince Israel that its attacks on Lebanon are not necessary for survival.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:22 PM

"none other than your old pal George Bush."

He ain't MY old pal, pal.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:21 PM

This is a bad mistake.
The NU has GOT to get in there now.
Where the F is the UN?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:15 PM

Main question appears to be:   Israelis think that by making life miserable for the Lebanese in general, they will generate enough pressure within Lebanon itself to disarm Hezbollah. Will this happen? I would guess it is unlikely--more likely outcome is to stiffen Lebanese resistance---and support of Hezbollah.

But one thing is clear--the US has little if any leverage on this, even if Bush were to try--which he won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:15 PM

I wonder how many Israelis have been killed?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:00 PM

"complete control over Hezbollah"--not likely. They are very likely supplying missiles--and are willing to exploit the situation, to say the least. But "puppetmasters" is bit strong. Not everything is a conspiracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Girl by the whirlpool
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:50 PM

Peace asks, "I wonder who supplies the rockets to Hezbollah?"

That would be Iran. The Iranian puppetmasters have complete control over both Hezbollah and Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:49 PM

Wedding Bell Blues
Yesterday Israeli border polie attacked a 150 strong wedding party at the village of Bi'lin on the occupied West Bank.The wedding party made up of Palestinians and international visitors were celebrating at the huge apartheid wall when the border police waded in injuring 23.
The wall has caused much anger in the village as it cuts the villagers off from their land and is a monstrosity.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:31 PM

The Israeli army covered itself in glory 3 days ago when it ransacked a community centre housing two kindergardens for infant children.They trashed the place and left with the centre's 6 computers.The kindergardens ,situated in the town of Jericho, provides a lifeline for some of the town's poorest children.
The centre which depends on charitable funding has been left destitute.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,DAN
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:12 PM

Two more Palestinians have died at the crossing point between Gaza and Egypt.One was a man of 24.Around 1000 people are still stranded at the locked down border checkpoint in the sweltering heat.One family have been there for almost a month.
Two days ago part of the wall was blown up and some 2000 escaped into Gaza before the gap was sealed by Egyptian security police.
dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,james
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:04 PM

Would it be the same country that supplied the stinger missiles to Afghanistan all those years ago?
james

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:02 PM

REPLY TO PEACE
The expert to ask on the state of prisons in those horrible far flung dictatorships is none other than your old pal George Bush. He has spent the past five years sending prisoners [not convicted but does that matter? ] on secret "rendition" flights across the globe.
Oh and of course he also does a nice line in American prisons on Guantamano and in Afghanistan.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:56 PM

I wonder who supplies the rockets to Hezbollah?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,james
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:54 PM

The charity War On Want has criticised a number of giant companies in Britain for their role in the oppression of the Palestinian people living under Israeli rule.
Connex a train company with a poor reputation in Britain has built a light railway across Palestinian land on the occupied West Bank while Tescos and a number of other supermarkets are now selling goods produced by Israeli companies on the West Bank.
Catterpillar has supplied huge bulldozers used by the Israeli state to demolish thousands of Palestinian homes again on the illegally occupied West Bank and also in Gaza.
The American peace activist Rachel Corrie waskilled by an Israeli soldier while trying to prevent one of these demolition raids.
james

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:44 PM

Actually, over the years the United States has given large sums of money to Egypt, Jordan, the Palestinian Authority (Until the terrorist organization Hamas gained power), and Israel. In the Soviet Era the dictator Nasser was heavily subsidized and weaponized by the Soviet Union. The PLO was funded from Soviet coffers and also the UN. The Israeli government didn't receive US government funds in any large size until the Soviets got heavily involved on the sides lf Israel's enemies.

Most of the early pioneer settlement was based on land grants from land purchases by Zionist organizations. It was only with the outbreak of war that land fell into Jewish hands as a result of how that war fell out.

Considering that Saudi Arabia and Iraq have funded the families of Homicide Bombers, that the oil money is all on one side, there is no doubt that the big money here is on the side of the Arabs. Israel is lucky to have any kind of economy at all after being forced to pay heavily in men and materials for defence.

The so-called Palestinian term Nakhba gets redefined to suit the occasion, apparently. The longer they sit in those camps and the more of them there are, the better they used to be, the more populous and prosperous the Holy Land was until it must've been a virtual paradise about the time in WWI the English and their minions kicked out the Turks. So why not let's invite the Turks back.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:40 PM

True.

And things are good in Syrian, Jordanian and Lebanese jails, right?

What you guys fail to understand is that both sides are wrong here. Until such time as you DO see that, you are really doing little here but trying to out post the people you perceive as the opposition. And those people are NOT the oppposition. I really wonder how many times you have tried to rein in Hezbollah or Hamas. Otr even if you DARE try. Likely not, because you know damned well they'd double tap you in a flash. If you really want peace in the region, then you would better get it by addressing the various parties involved who are violent and not much better than each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,HUGO
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM

According to the Ramallah based Mandela Institute for Human Rights Israel is holding 9600 Palestinian political prisoners including some 150 women and about 380 children.
The prisoners are being kept in prison camps and detention centres which do not meet internationally recognised standards.
The fighters holding the Israeli soldier in Gaza are calling for the release of the Palestinian women and children prisoners in exchange for his freedom.
Torture and abuse is common in Israeli jails and Amnesty International has many concerns about the conditions the prisoners are kept in.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM

Yeah. I posted the following yesterday at 4:36 PM:

"The Israeli army said an Israeli naval ship was in Lebanese waters, apparently by a rocket. The damage was not serious and there were no injuries, a spokesman said. Officials would not give the vessel's exact location."



As result of this crap, Israel will, within 24 hours, do some serious damage to Beirut. Welcome to the world when neither side will listen."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,david
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:24 PM

Isreali warplanes have attacked the lighthouse off Beirut together with the city centre and the port area.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:17 PM

Calling a sheep a dog will NOT make it bark. You should know that by now, Ifor.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Ifor
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:13 PM

Those who argue that both sides in the conflict are equally to blame are copping out big time.
Time and time again the Zionists and the Israeli state have been the aggressor in the Middle East.
From the very first Zionists who arrived at the end of the 19th century they have sought to take land from the Palestinians and use force when and where necessary.The foundation of the Israeli state was founded on the "El Nakhba[the catastrophe ]" of the Palestinians who were driven out of their homes and cities at the point of a bayonet.
These refugees and their children have no right of return.

Since that time Israel has waged a long war against the Palestinian people and its near neighbours in Egypt, Syria the Lebanon and Jordan.

Israel has been backed to the hilt by the USA which has a huge responsibility for the state of the Middle East today.It has armed Israel with the latest weapons and technology and funds its economy.Without American support Israel would have gone bankrupt a long time ago.

The USA uses Israel as its terrifying guard dog in the region.Those pesky arabs have the oil which the USA regards as its own .Israel is used to keep these countries in order and their usually corrupt leaders in line.

Israel is used to pummel the Palestinians so that they "do not raise their heads".

The Zionists howl with rage when they hear criticism of Israel and its murderous policies.They have been taught to believe that Palestinian lives are worthless so that when an Israeli quarter tonne bomb pulverises a Hamas leader in his flat it matters not that innocent men ,women and children were slaughtered in the carnage.

Something similar happened today in the south of Lebanon when some 18 civilians fleeing the Israeli warplanes were incinerated in their two cars.

Reading George Bush's call for restraint today was grotesque,That butcher was responsible for Operation "Shock and Awe" which saw hundreds of cruise missiles and thousands of bombs targetted on on the people of Iraq.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:03 PM

While it goes without saying that increased Israeli restraint will be vital to pull the Mideast back from the brink of all-out war, those calling for Israel to let up also need to address the attacks that have driven it to act with such force: the Hamas and Hezbollah incursions and kidnappings on Israeli soil, and the continual barrage of missiles from Lebanon and Gaza.

Israel needs, and is entitled to, a quid pro quo. But it is not going to come voluntarily from Hezbollah and Hamas extremists bent on Israel's destruction, or from their backers in Syria or Iran.

There is a widespread belief that Israel and the Palestinians would eventually reach a two-state peace settlement if their attempts weren't constantly and deliberately disrupted by armed extremists.

Israel blames the Lebanese government for allowing Hezbollah free rein in the south, and the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority for not disarming the Gaza militias. It blames Syria and Iran for aiding and abetting these groups.

Although it is impossible to deny that shared culpability, it is also true that the rest of the world has pretty much sat on its hands where these peace breakers are concerned. And while it is difficult to argue with yesterday's Financial Times editorial, which said the Israeli offensive "cries out for international intervention," the same international intervention is just as sorely needed on the other side of this escalating fight.

It ought to start with the powerful industrialized countries at today's Group of Eight summit in St. Petersburg, Russia. And it ultimately would have to include Arab countries, such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. But whatever form it takes, international intervention must aim at reducing hostilities on both sides of Israel's borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:55 PM

With the circle of violence in the Middle East expanding alarmingly, it is important to be clear about not only who is responsible for the latest outbreak, but who stands to gain most from its continued escalation.

Both questions have the same answer: Hamas and Hezbollah. And Israel needs to be careful that its far-reaching military responses, however legally and morally justified, do not end up advancing the political agenda that Hamas and Hezbollah hard-liners had in mind when they conceived and executed the kidnappings of Israeli soldiers that detonated the fighting.

The Palestinian Authority, which Hamas controls, and the Lebanese government, in which Hezbollah is a minority participant, inexcusably failed to prevent or halt these incidents. Iran, which arms Hezbollah, and Syria, which shelters the most violent wing of Hamas, also share some responsibility.

Israel is fully justified in treating these two incidents as unacceptable acts of aggression. But it needs to better adapt its methods to the circumstances it now faces. The point is to weaken and isolate Hamas and Hezbollah, while denying them opportunities to rally broader Arab support. To that end, Israel must focus its fire much more directly at the leaders and fighters of these two groups, and do far more to minimize the damage to civilian bystanders.

Here's why: The military chieftains of Hamas and Hezbollah fully understand that their primitively armed guerrillas and limited-range unguided missiles are no match for Israel's world-class military forces. When they engage in provocative operations, like the recent kidnapping of Israeli soldiers and shelling of Israeli towns, they do not expect to win any kind of traditional military victory.

What they more realistically hope for is that the inevitably fierce and devastating Israeli military response will hand them an opportunity to radicalize Arab politics and thereby pressure moderate Arab leaders to distance themselves from Israel and embrace the guerrilla cause. That is a tactic that secular Palestinian guerrilla groups like Fatah pioneered decades ago, and that Islamist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah now use for similar ends.

This perverse dynamic is again coming into play after Israel's wide-ranging forays into Gaza and Lebanon. Most Arabs are not blaming Hamas and Hezbollah for provoking these Israeli raids. They are blaming Israel for carrying them out.

That is not fair. But it is the way things work in the real world, and the provocateurs of Hamas and Hezbollah and their allies in Damascus and Tehran understand how to use it to their long-term advantage. Israel's political and military leaders need to understand it too and not let themselves be drawn into the provocateurs' game.

---

Published as an editorial in the New York Times July 15, 2006. I tend to agree with the editorial, but I wish the poster had given proper attribution.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:29 PM

*generalized guiding principle*

"It all depends of whose Ox is being gored!"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:19 PM

yep, robomatic...all that too! It is a chess game, with a calculated plan to end up with 'victory', no matter how many pawns lie strewn beside the board.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:08 PM

I'm thinking that both Iran and Israel are making not unconsidered moves, although Israel is more the reactor than the initiator. Iran through the actions of their associates in Lebanese Hezbollah are drawing attention from their nuclear confrontation with the rest of the world. They are also reducing a certain amount of pro-Israeli sentiment that had been developing since the Gaza pullout and the Islamic pan-European terrorism.

Israel has been concerned with the growing power of Hezbollah in Lebanon, and probably with the stockpile of weaponry which is now being used to penetrate northern Israel. They probably see this as an opportunity to cut 'em down to size. They are probably aware that every bruised knee in Lebanon will be blamed on them, but are hoping they can endure the opprobrium. With Sharon out of the picture there is no strong leader with military experience, and this is an attempt to reassure the Israeli public that they will be protected.

The difference between "stupid and unreasonable" and "logical, planned, and well thought out" is often difficult to discern.

Check out the book "The Guns of August"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 01:07 PM

"I'm as qualified to pass judgement on the Israeli occupation as I was to pass judgement on Jim Crow in the US south, Apartheid in South Africa, and on the Nazis for their crimes against humanity. If you think that standing up for human rights is propaganda, then you are hardly the humanitarian I had taken you to be. You need to learn a hell of a lot more than you currently do about the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands before you will be in a position to tell me what I am saying is propaganda."

as usual, I am concerned with reasoned argument, even as I am concerned with the rights and suffering of ALL people. What I see (on both sides of the issue, not just yours, Carol) is a "choosing of sides", then arguments constructed to justify almost anything done by the chosen side. Definitions are streched, comparisons made, questions are mis-represented, unwarrented assumptions are built into statements and conclusions drawn that are ONLY valid IF one accepts those presuppositions, definitions and comparisons. Nor do I appreciate having my statement twisted to say that I CALLED your position 'propaganda'. I was referring to the verbal similarities.

I KNOW that the conditions that most Palestinians are forced to live in is unfair and demeaning and does not offer them reasonable opportunities to live meaningful lives....this hurts and saddens me. Neither do I think that Hamas and Hezbolah have reasonable approaches to address those inequities.

I simply do not see Jim Crow, Nazis, and Apartheid as examples of what is happening in the Middle East. Nor do I accept at face value that there was any clearly defined "Palestinian lands".

You say that 'occupation IS the provocation'....but IF one accepts that it is clearly 'occupation', why is wanton murder the proper resopnse? Why is not a Martin Luther King or a Mahatma Gandhi non-violent campaign a better idea? Do you just adjust your violence tolerant threshold to define ANYTHING done by the 'oppressed' as justified?

A number of posts ago, I referred to the Post editorial in which it was claimed that the very existence of Israel was the issue....and as I read your posts, you have come within a whisker of saying just that. "Occupation IS the provocation"

What you don't realize, because I am not willing to 'choose sides' and defend either set of arguments, is that I actually SEE the point that it might have been a mistake in 1947 to create Israel at all! At that point the Jews were in 'roughly' the same position that the Palestinians are now, and they had a LOT of sympathy. They clearly needed support and some sort of reparations for centuries of persecution. But why a COUNTRY carved into lands that many people had ethnic & religious claims to?

Now we have, 60 years later, a practical problem. It is a problem much like many others in the history of the world.....it was DONE...like the 'occupation' of the USA, to the detriment of the Native Americans, the 'occupation' of Mexico by Cortez, to the detriment of the Aztecs, or the creation of Northern Ireland. What do we DO to redress the injuries?

Hamas, Hezbolah and several countries have stated policies that the situation will not be 'right' until Israel ceases to exist. Therefore, they state that they WILL continue attacks, no matter whether Israel 'withdraws', sits tight or expands. Now, whether they or you) like it or not, Israel IS a country, recognized by the UN, no matter how they got there...and AS a country, one should not be surprised to see them make the case for defending themselves against attack. If you simply, in all cases, define their defense as agression, there is nowhere to go but where it is going....the Gingham dog & Calico cat syndrome. All that can be done, without a full-scale war involving Iran, Syria, Lebanon...and perhaps the Saudis! is to snipe and hurt and make Israeli life awkward. Wonderful scenario! A full scale war there affects the entire world! And you KNOW sides will be chosen based on issues other than exalted ideas of 'right'.

The Israelis got where they are by sympathy, some adroit maneuvering, and some good luck...the Palestinians need to learn from that and use tactics other than mangled bodies. There have been short periods of calm in the area in the last 10-15 years, but in my reading of the news, it has been supporters of the Palestinian cause who felt that Israel was not being cooperative enough (and they may be right) and who therefore decided to resume atrocities to provoke more conflict.

I do NOT see Israel saying "sure...we'll just disband as a country"...and Israel has (right now) the firepower to cause more pain than they suffer. It is frustrasting to watch an Iranian bred & funded agitator force Lebanon into direct conflict with Israel...and equally frustrating to watch Israel overreact and use one or two soldiers as an excuse to escalate the situation.

I repeat...BOTH sides are being stupid and unreasonable.....and boy, they sure are provoking some unreasonable arguments as folks set their jaws and defend one side or another!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:45 PM

Haaretz is an interesting paper - here is today's front page - it's an opportunity to read the news that people in Israel are getting (and not getting).

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,david
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:36 PM

The Israeli newspaper Haraatz has reported that a 26 year old Palestinian women suffering from cancer has died after being stranded at the closed border crossing between Gaza and Egypt.
david

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Seth
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:21 PM

JERUSALEM
"I woke up this morning
and none of the news was good
the death machines were rumblin'
'cross the ground where Jesus stood
and the man on my tv told me
it had always been that way
there was nothing anyone could do or say
and i almost listened to him
and i almost lost my mind
then i regained my senses again
and looked into my heart to find
that i believe that one fine day all the children of abraham
will lay down their swords forever in Jerusalem

Well maybe i'm only dreamin'and maybe i'm just a fool
but i dont remember learning how to hate in sunday school
But somewhere along the way i strayed and i never looked back again
but i still find some comfort now and then
then the storm comes rumblin' in and i cannot lay me down
the drums are drummin' aga'in
and i cannot stand the sound
buti believe therell come a day when the lion and the lamb
will lay down in peace together in jerusalem

and there ll be no barricades then
there will be no wires or walls
and we can all wash this blood from our hands
all this hatred from our souls
and i believe on that day all the children of abraham
will lay down their swords forever in jerusalem

steve earle

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:11 PM

Dianavan--

As I've indicated, Hezbollah is not "the government of Lebanon" but it is indeed part of that government. Problem is: they have made themselves essential to any coalition--and their cause is very popular--though perhaps the scale of the rocket attacks may not be. But without them in the government, civil war in Lebanon (again) is a very real possibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:00 PM

From the Wall St Journal today 15 July 2006

Hezbollah's "military is in some ways stronger than Lebanon's national forces, while the group works closely with foreign backers Syria and Iran." ..."The group has largely succeeded in carving out a de facto exception for itself (in disarming militias), since its main focus is in fighting Israel--an immensely popular cause in Lebanon and across the Arab world."

"...with Lebanon's army dominated by Shiites sympathetic to Hezbollah, it remains highly unlikely the government will mount a serious effort to disarm the group."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:41 AM

From Wiki: Israel said it held the Beirut government responsible for the attack, but Prime Minister Fuad Siniora denied any knowledge of the raid and stated that he did not condone it. An emergency meeting of the Lebanese government reaffirmed this position. Hezbollah's action aroused varying reactions among Lebanese political forces. It was harshly criticised by many members of the largely anti-Syrian parliamentary majority, while Michel Aoun, despite his understanding with the party, declared that he supported the government's position. Outright support for Hezbolah came only from two small political forces, the Lebanese Communist Party and Suleiman Frangie's Marada party."

So why are Lebanese citizens being killed by Israel? The government of Beirut is not responsible for the attacks on Israel. Seems that ousting Syria from Lebanon is not good enough. Seems that democratically held elections do not satisfy Israel, either. Why punish the Lebanese people for something that Hezbolah has done? Hezbolah is not the government of Lebanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:19 AM

It appears Carol is correct in her view about the role played by Hezbollah in the Lebanese government. They have made themselves essential to any coalition. Story of how they did it is detailed in the Wall St Journal 10 July 2006.

First of all, they engendered much good will in Lebanon by their extensive social services work--"far more efficiently than the Lebanese government in many areas". Hezbollah "turned the goodwill engendered by its social-services work into political might".

In the campaign for seats in Lebanon's 128-member Parliament, 12 Hezbollah members won seats. They turned the campaign into a referendum on whether Hezbollah should be able to keep its armed military wing.

Mr. Bush aided this process. A winning line in speeches was "The Americans have a big project against the Arab world--Iraq, now Syria, and next Hezbollah. And we must resist".

"When the results came in June 2005, Hezbollah and a few parties it had aligned with were huge winners, taking the maximum 35 parliamentary seats available to Shiite Muslims."

They made a demand that "all major government decisions, including the question of Hezbollah's weapons, be decided through consensual agreement, rather than a straight vote of the cabinet ministers. Coalition partners--the biggest was Future Movement, led by a son of the slain Mr. Hariri--needed Shiite representation in their government, and agreed to the conditions. That gave Hezbollah the power to veto just about anything it opposed."



Anybody who thinks Israeli attacks on Lebanon will cause the Lebanese government to jettison Hezbollah should consider whether the firebombing of German cities by the Allies hurt the German war effort--or pulled the German people together in adversity.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:03 AM

"Especially this month ,Israel has been victimised enough" says Troy.

Israel has one of the most deadly killing machines in the world and has spent decades perfecting its use.
It murders civilians with regular impunity.

It pursues Palestinian refugees and slaughters them in their refugee camps.

It has illegally occupied the West Bank since 1967 and kills,imprisons and humiliates at will.

It shells Gaza from the sea,from the air and from the land .
It kills civilians,young and old,infant and the infirm without restraint.

It is bombing hell out of the Lebanon where it has a history of attacking civilians.Remember Qana ...and those Mudcat readers who don't... do look it up.170 Lebanese refugees slaughtered at a UN base by Israeli artillery shells.

Israeli armed forces supervised the slaughter at Sabra and Shatila camps in Beirut in 1982 where literally thousands of Palestinian women,children and old people were butchered by Israel's fascist allies despite US guarantees for their safety.

When the Palestinians have gone to International courts of Law to defend their rights they have been ignored by the Israeli military.
walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Troy
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:38 AM

Even after Hezbollah launched hundreds of Katyusha rockets on Thursday, wounding 90 Israelis and killing at least two, Jerusalemites remained calm.

Where you stand regarding Israel's unsought two-front war depends on how quickly you say "Kassam" and "Katyusha" when telling the story. True, Israel's supporters - and civilians -- can take pride in a country which will go to Herculean lengths to save even one kidnap victim and has made the well-being of three soldiers a national obsession.

Still, the kidnappings are a sidelight. The months-long downpour of Kassams, especially on the working-class southern town of Sderot, has shaped Israel's Summer Rains Gaza strategy. And Hezbollah's rocket barrage has made intolerable the six-year status-quo standoff.
No nation can tolerate persistent shelling from a neighbour. The question isn't "How dare Israel attack Gaza and Lebanon?" but "What took so long for Israel to respond effectively"?

On the Lebanese border, the response appeared quick - judging by the time elapsed from the moment Hezbollah ambushed the young soldiers on routine patrol until Israel began hitting central targets in Lebanon.
Yet for six years Israel has shown remarkable restraint in the north. Despite Israel's complete, unilateral withdrawal from southern Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah's Islamist radicals wanted to continue their war against the Jewish state.

Hezbollah then amassed an estimated 10,000 missiles against Israel. Hezbollah provocations, ranging from the attempted kidnapping and murder of three patrolling soldiers in 2000 to occasionally bombing northern Israeli towns, have triggered controlled responses. Israel's strategy has been to try to avoid a multi-front war. The real question, however, is why Hezbollah enjoys attacking the Jewish state so wantonly.

Similarly in the south, Israel's reactions seemed hasty only when linked to the kidnapping two weeks ago. After what they calculate to be 1,500 Kassams in 1,900 days, with eight deaths, the good citizens of Sderot resent their government's inaction. They often seem as angry at Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert as at their murderous Palestinian neighbors. "Sharon Wake Up, Olmert is in a Coma," one sign in the town square reads.

The residents have endured this harassment for far too long. Here, too, the questions easily switch from the strategic to the existential. Why is it, so many wonder, that Gaza's Palestinians have devoted their energies in the year since disengagement to trying to destroy Israel, rather than building a peaceful future?

The fact that this two-front war has been launched from areas evacuated by Israel army's has undermined the credibility of Israel's peace camp - as well as Olmert's pro-disengagement government. In Sderot on Sunday, most people blamed the Gaza disengagement for intensifying Palestinian attacks.

Moreover, the Palestinians' deadly shell game of spring and summer highlighted one of the more depressing aspects of the Palestinian-Israeli clash and a lingering source of Israeli insecurity. The widespread Hezbollah-Hamas desire to eliminate Israel, and Palestinians' success in peddling their one-sided narrative to the world remain unnerving.

To Israelis, Eliyahu Asheri was a murdered 18-year-old "teenager"; to most reporters - who carefully call terrorists "militants" and perceive a nonexistent "pragmatism" in Hamas - Asheri was a dehumanized, evil "settler." That this worldwide winning streak continues even with Hamas terrorists heading the Palestinian Authority truly is unfathomable.

A quintessential clash between Israeli facts and Western delusions followed the tragic deaths of the seven Gazan picnickers on the beach in mid-June. Even as forensic experts doubted that an errant Israeli shell was responsible, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan called Olmert, angrily demanding an inquiry. Olmert is said to have replied, "Why didn't you phone me after 30 rockets were fired at Israel and say you wanted this investigated?" In his shockingly candid, outrageously unprofessional, depressingly characteristic response, Annan supposedly said he had no idea there had been so many Kassam attacks.

With Hezbollah's Katyushas there will be no such delusions. The hints of optimism some of us detected from Mahmoud Abbas and Ehud Olmert just a few weeks ago have disappeared amid the smoke emanating from the guns of Hamas and Hezbollah. The bulk of Israel's citizen will remain safe, clustered near the population centres of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Still, Hezbollah and Hamas have helped destabilize the region, delegitimize Israel's centrist peace camp and militarize the conflict.

As the European and UN leaders issue their ritualistic calls for restraint, as if successful counterattacks against mortal enemies can be mounted politely, while more biased forces chide Israel for "collective punishment," as if the latest polls don't demonstrate widespread Palestinian support for these attacks, it is time for Israel's critics to acknowledge Israel's enemies' brazen brutality.
Hamas and Hezbollah have repeatedly called for Israel's extermination - and acted to realize their twisted ideals. While the appropriate response is debatable, chiding Israel without acknowledging the lethal realities of the challenges facing Israel reveals much about the Western capacity for self-delusion. True statesmanship requires honest evaluations not blind moral equivalence. Especially this month, Israel has been victimized enough.

Outsiders need the same brazen honesty as Israel's enemies, while using those skills to find a new more stable status quo rather than triggering unnecessary and unsought wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Josh
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:31 AM

Dear Mahoney
Keep taking the tablets but double the dose!
Josh

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:27 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Mahoney
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:18 AM

It's time to flatten Iran. Now we have a good excuse.

Or let the Jews do it for us.