BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:43 AM

From an excellent article in English on the Spiegel Magazine site from Germany.

Islamism has attacked Israel from both the south and the north and Israel has no choice but to react. But there is more to it than that. Israel's military operation is important for the entire Western world. Until 2005, Islamism was able to successfully mislead the West into thinking that the "occupation" of Gaza and southern Lebanon was the cause of the terror attacks carried out against Israel. Now we know better: Islamism isn't out to change Israeli policy in the region, Islamism is out to completely eradicate the country of Israel. The same strategy is being used on a larger scale: The Middle East conflict is not the cause of Tehran's conflict with Western secularism. It is merely a convenient alibi.

Which kind of puts the lie to CarolC's mantra about the "occupation."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:25 AM

The war will continue to continue. It'll go another week anyway. So, yes, this thread will continue to continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:22 AM

800!

I never thought I'd start an 800 thread.

Will it go 1,000?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:16 AM

"Last saturday some 30000 marched at very short notice ,in London in support of the Palestinians and the Lebanese.They called for an end to the invasion of the Lebanon and justice for the Palestinians."

Did 30000 march to condemn the rockets fired by Hezbollah and Hamas into Israel? It seems that some folks pick and choose which wrongs they wish to redress. If you are indeed pro peace, then the first march should have been to protest the Hezbollah and Hamas attcks against Israel. Uh, did that happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:30 AM

Makeup of the multinational force:

1) Given French ties to Lebanon, especially to the intelligentsia, French troops would be an obvious choice for one component.

2) It might not be essential for Mideast troops to participate. It is however, mandatory that some Moslem troops be included. Perhaps Indonesian.


Main question obviously is the exact role the multinational force would play. Would part of the role be to actually disarm warring parties? That seems absolutely necessary. And a tall order.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:29 AM

Hugo, I take it you have been to Iraq and seen for yourself? No of course you are sitting at home watching telly and reading shitty newspapers. You could get 50,000 people to march on rights for dog fuckers in the UK, most of them could not place London on a map never mind Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 07:56 AM

As to the makeup of the multinational force, it has to include some Mideastern countries' troops. And the longer the Israeli attacks go on, the less likely they will be willing to partipate. It may already be too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 07:51 AM

It seems the parallel with Sherman's march is remarkably apt. (The difference, of course, is that Sherman had no intention of leaving behind a functioning Confederate government. ) But in Atlanta, Sherman's orders were to save churches and private homes. When he burned Atlanta, he spent most of the night with his engineers trying to save threatened houses. His orders to the troops were to save churches and private homes.

And on the march itself, his orders were not to enter private homes. He told the Southern women who asked that houses would not be burned but "the courthouse and the stores will"
And he said "I don't war on women and children".

1) Was this completely honored? Not likely--that's the way war is.

2) Did Sherman's prohibitions against disturbing non-war-related aspects of Southern life win him much popularity in the South?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 04:02 AM

To Peace.....
It seems to me that it is the Zionists who embrace total war against civilians and show no remorse at all for the scale of death ,misery and destruction the Israeli army has caused in both Gaza and the Lebanon.

This morning the news has reported the use of cluster bombs, and doctors at a Lebanese hospital have stated that white phospherous bombs have been used against Lebanese children.

Last night the BBC reported the missile attack on clearly marked Red Cross ambulances.This morning seven civilians were killed in an air attack at the Lebanese village of Nabatiah.

Your attack on the Sociliat Party is quite frankly bizarre!

The Socialist Party [which I am not a member of ] and other socialist organisations in Britain have been part of the backbone of the anti war movement . The Stop The War Coalition ,formed in the aftermath of the attack on the Twin Towers in New York, mobilised up to 2 million in a huge demonstration against the attack on Iraq in Feb 2003.One of the main slogans on the placards on the march called for a "Free Palestine".

Last saturday some 30000 marched at very short notice ,in London in support of the Palestinians and the Lebanese.They called for an end to the invasion of the Lebanon and justice for the Palestinians.

In contrast the American neo-cons and the Zionists in Israel are now targetting Syria and Iran.We have seen what their war of liberation has done to the Iraqi people and can only imagine what they have in store for the Syrians and Iranians.

Most socialists are anti war.We know that Israel has been massively supported by the USA because of the needs of Big Oil and for America's strategic and military interests.These interests coincide neatly with the Zionist demand for a greater Israel on land which is arab,palestinian or lebanese.

"No blood for oil!" was another slogan seen on the anti war demonstrations...and how correct that slogan was and is!
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:30 AM

This man's mother will grieve as much as anyone else. And she will ask the same question over and over. And no answer will ever be good enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:23 AM

'"Hezbollah, Lebanese Army--same thing, no?" - from Peace

Absolutely not. Lebanon has its own military.

Hezbollah is not the Lebanese army.'

EXACTLY!

######################################################

Four Children Among Canadian Dead
More information on the Canadians killed on vacation in Lebanon from the CBC…

"Seven Canadians — including four children — were killed in an Israeli air raid that hit a Lebanese town on the border with Israel on Sunday. Three Canadians were seriously injured.

Relatives of family killed in Lebanon grieve in Montreal (CBC)
Israel has acknowledged carrying out the attack and has apologized to Ottawa, CBC's Nahlah Ayed reported from Beirut.

Most of the dead were members of one extended Montreal family, on vacation in the village of Aitaroun at the time of the Israeli attack. Among those killed was Ali El-Akhras who came to Montreal from Lebanon 15 years ago. His wife, Saada El-Akhras, was among the injured.

The nephew of Ali El-Akhras, also named Ali, had accompanied his uncle and aunt on their annual summer vacation. His wife, Amira, and their four children, ages one, four, six and eight, were killed in the attack

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:13 AM

"Trouble with the Israeli mentality is that they consider EVERYONE their enemy."

They have good reason for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:09 AM

"It said it believes the use of cluster grenades in populated areas could violate a ban on indiscriminate attacks contained in international humanitarian law."

This applies to everyone. ie) international, humanitarian

Human Rights Watch addresses Nations, not criminal activity like terrorism.



"Hezbollah, Lebanese Army--same thing, no?" - from Peace

Absolutely not. Lebanon has its own military.

Hezbollah is not the Lebanese army.


"Lebanon's army, which so far has sat on the sidelines of the violence raging in the country, will join the fight against Israel if Israeli forces invade the country, Defense Minister Elias Murr said on Al-Jazeera television. "The Lebanese army -- and I stress -- the Lebanese army will resist and defend and will prove that it is an army that deserves respect," he said. In most of the previous Israeli attacks, including in 1978 and the 1982 invasion in which Beirut was occupied, the Lebanese army largely stayed out of the fighting. Twenty Lebanese soldiers have been killed in strikes on their bases during the nine-day-old Israeli bombardment of Lebanon."

Lebanese Prime Minister Siniora told the New York Times that the abducted Israeli soldiers could be released and the Lebanese army moved to the south of the country if Israel meets certain conditions. Siniora said the conditions include Israel's withdrawal from the disputed Shebaa Farms area of the border, the release of Lebanese detainees in Israeli jails and a return to the terms of the 1949 armistice between the two countries, the Times reported. He suggested that the Lebanese army would move to southern Lebanon – an Israeli demand -- once these conditions were met. He backed the idea of a more robust international force, but only after "all the issues" were put on the table, and he stopped short of condemning Hezbollah, the newspaper said.

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said Israel would be ready to call a cease-fire with Hezbollah if its captured soldiers are returned, the Lebanese army deploys along the countries' shared border and the future disarmament of Hezbollah can be guaranteed. In recent days, Israeli officials have sent conflicting signals about whether Israel would demand Hezbollah's immediate disarmament as a condition for a halt in fighting.

Israeli fighter-bombers killed five Lebanese soldiers and wounded 41 others in an overnight strike on a Lebanese army base in the area of Kfar Chima, security officials said. The Lebanese army has largely stayed out of the fighting between Hezbollah guerrillas and Israel, but its positions have been repeatedly attacked by Israeli warplanes."

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB115306760246608000-aC9JLHSn5Kn6cCdR4X1jlOAoFgQ_20060820.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top

Trouble with the Israeli mentality is that they consider EVERYONE their enemy. Its usually a good idea to know your enemy before you start lobbing bombs.

btw - Seven of the Canadians that were killed in Gaza were from the same family. The remaining family members returned today. One of the women said they were ordered by the Canadian embassy to stay in their homes when the bombing began, not to go on the streets, not to flee. They stayed and were blasted to smithereens.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:03 AM

And for the Socialist Party crew here:

Meditation XVII: No man is an island...

"All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated...As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon, calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come: so this bell calls us all: but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness....No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

##########################################################

You won't care for that because it brings a cheer to your hearts when Israelis die. However, there it is. You, and people like you glory in the deaths of people. I do NOT share your view. It brings me no joy when Lebanese, Iraqis, 'Palestinians', Syrians, Americans, Canadians, Isrealis are killed in war. I guess I just haven't had your degree of indoctrination. I hope I never do.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:52 AM

Wilfred Owen

Dulce Et Decorum Est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:42 AM

Hizbullah looking to the future . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:36 AM

However, since you won't, I will.

"Tuesday 18 July 2006
Human Rights Watch: Hezbollah Attacks Target Civilians
Anti-personnel Ball Bearings Meant to Harm "Soft" Targets

(New York) - Hezbollah's attacks in Israel on Sunday and Monday were at best indiscriminate attacks in civilian areas, at worst the deliberate targeting of civilians. Either way, they were serious violations of international humanitarian law and probable war crimes, Human Rights Watch said today.

In addition, the warheads used suggest a desire to maximize harm to civilians. Some of the rockets launched against Haifa over the past two days contained hundreds of metal ball bearings that are of limited use against military targets but cause great harm to civilians and civilian property. The ball bearings lodge in the body and cause serious harm."

Complete article here.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:31 AM

I have to ask: Is your last name First?

Also, if the Israelis are using WP against civilians, the people who gave the order for their use deserve to be tried for crimes against humanity.

"NEW YORK, July 24 (Reuters) - A U.S.-based human rights group accused Israel on Monday of using artillery-fired cluster grenades against a Lebanese village last week during its assault against Hizbollah.

Human Rights Watch said it had taken photos of cluster grenades stored by Israeli artillery teams on the Israel-Lebanon border and that a cluster grenade attack on Wednesday killed one and wounded at least 12 civilians in the village of Blida.

"Cluster munitions are unacceptably inaccurate and unreliable weapons when used around civilians," Human Rights Watch Executive Director Kenneth Roth said in a statement. "They should never be used in populated areas."

Israeli officials in the United States were not immediately available for comment.

Human Rights Watch said it had photographed M483A1 artillery shells stored on the Israeli side of the border, which deliver 88 cluster submunitions per shell and have a failure rate of 14 percent, often leaving behind dangerous unexploded shells.

It said it believes the use of cluster grenades in populated areas could violate a ban on indiscriminate attacks contained in international humanitarian law.

"Our research in Iraq and Kosovo shows that cluster munitions cannot be used in populated areas without huge loss of civilian life," Roth said. "Israel must stop using cluster bombs in Lebanon at once."

###############################################

Notice, however, that the article says 'indiscriminate attacks' are a violation of international law. Hezbollah's rockets fall in the same category. Look at both sides, Hugo.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:21 AM

Human Rights Watch has accused the Israeli army of attacking civilian targets with cluster bombs fired by artillery on the Israel-Lebanon border at the Lebanese village of Bilda.

One civilian was killed and at least 12 wounded ,some of whom were sheltering in a cellar.One of the wounded lost both legs in the attack during which several cluster bomb shells were fired.A family of 4 German-Lebanese were also wounded while sheltering in a housein the village.

The cluster bombs were seen stacked and ready for use with an Israeli artillery unit by inspectors from the Human Rights Watch which has lodged a complaint with Israel.The use of cluster bombs against civilians is illegal under International Law but Israel has stockpiles a variety of these weapons and is obviously prepared to use them .
Meanwhile,Lebanese doctors believe that the Israeli military has also used white phosphorous bombs against children...who are now being treated in hospital.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:18 AM

And on the other front:

"Air Force Bombs Gaza Weapons Depot
04:43 Jul 24, '06 / 28 Tammuz 5766

(IsraelNN.com) Israeli Air Force planes have bombed a weapons depot in the Gaza region. No one was injured in the raid. The weapons were used by the Islamic Jihad, according to an IDF spokesman.

The army arranged a phone call to citizens living in the building before the attack in order to allow them to escape."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:07 AM

Hezbollah, Lebanese Army--same thing, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:05 AM

Incidentally, in the most recent stories mentioning the Hezbollah cross border raid in which two Israeli soldiers were captured, they now mention there were eight killed. I hadn't heard that before.

Where was the Lebanese Army?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:41 AM

"Annan Wants End Israel-Hezbollah Conflict
By EDITH M. LEDERER , 07.25.2006, 12:23 AM

"U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said Monday he wants the upcoming meeting of key Mideast players to agree on a package to stop the Israeli-Hezbollah fighting and ensure lasting peace between Israel and Lebanon."

Maybe, at last, some hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:28 AM

Good post, Ron. A very reasoned approach to the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:26 AM

Assurances from you mean little.

"The Sarours had to go to the port by taxi because the Lebanese Red Cross suspended operations outside Tyre after Israeli jets blasted two ambulances with rockets, said Ali Deebe, a Red Cross spokesman in Tyre.

In the incident Sunday, one Red Cross ambulance went south of Tyre to meet an ambulance and transfer the wounded to the hospital.

"When we have wounded outside the city, we always used two ambulances," Deebe said.

The rocket attack on the two vehicles wounded six ambulance workers and three civilians _ an 11-year-old boy, an elderly woman and a man, Deebe said.

"One of the rockets hit right in the middle of the big red cross that was painted on top of the ambulance," he said. "This is a clear violation of humanitarian law, of international law. We are neutral and we should not be targeted."

Kassem Shalan, one of the ambulance workers, told AP Television News that nine people were injured. "We were transferring the wounded into our vehicle and something fell and I dropped to the floor," he said.

Amateur video provided by an ambulance worker confirmed Deebe's account of damage to the vehicles, showing one large hole and several smaller ones in the roof of one ambulance and a large hole in the roof of the second. Both were destroyed.

The Israeli military said it was investigating the incident."

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

"You seem to think that writing Israel a letter will make a difference. Guess what, they won't even listen to the U.N. A letter will make no more difference than winning or losing an argument on Mudcat."

I asked what you had done. This is your response. In other words, you have done nothing. Thank you for making that clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:15 AM

Ron: I'm not going to disagree with your post, which is very different from the propaganda of the Walt, James, Jon, ifor gang. Israel has been wrongly accused before, but no one is saying she's perfect. Let's see how it plays out.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,James
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:05 AM

To number six
I can assure yiu that the attack on the two Red Cross ambulances made the top story on the BBC news yeaterday.I saw both showings.One thing I didn't mention that the missile punched a large hole at the very centre of the red cross sign on the roof of one of the ambulances itself...as if the cross itself had been the actual bullseye target.

The second showing also showed footage of the ambulance paramedics being brought into hospital covered in blood along with a young boy of about 8 years.
James

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 12:01 AM

Ron ... what countries would you suggest make up this multinational force ... Nato members?? Unfortunately I think it would be disasterous. I agree fully (and good point in your post) that Hezbollah is very media savy ... and it has been working in their favour in regards to world opinion ... personally, I believe the only solution is that Israel pull back, cool down, take some punches but roll wit them. Maybe this will damper down the actions of Hezbollah. It Won't solve the problems, but it will cease the killings (for a while anyway)

Good post (overall) of yours

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 11:46 PM

I totally support the Israelis' right to defend their borders and to try to end Hezbollah's attacks on them.

But they have blown this campaign--and in the process strengthened their adversaries, including Syria, Iran, and probably Hezbollah in Lebanon --not to mention anti-Semitism all over the world.

As Peace has implied, this is not just a military campaign--it's also a propaganda campaign. The Israeli attacks on Lebanon, especially on the Lebanese army and areas of Lebanon which don't harbor many Hezbollah fighters--are worse than criminal ( for loss of life). They are stupid.

They give Hezbollah the opportunity to paint itself--plausibly-- as the only Lebanese patriots--fighting an external aggression. Think the "embattled farmers" at Lexington and Concord--or think Southerners during Sherman's march to the sea. The difference is that Sherman's march really did hasten the end of the Civil War. Given that Israel admits it cannot expunge Hezbollah root and branch, do you really see an Appomattox anytime soon?. And how long did the bitterness in the South last after Sherman's march?

Also, Hezbollah is, among other things, very media-savvy. Not only do they have their own television station, but they know the power of gruesome pictures--especially of women and children. Pictures of the corpse of a child were shown on Hezbollah's satellite TV station--and e-mailed around the world.

The more Lebanon in general is attacked, the more the Lebanese intelligentsia flees the country. Already Bush is being criticized by prominent Lebanese for his support of the Israeli campaign, which threatens to destroy one of his prize "young democracies".

This is a disaster for Lebanon--but also for Israel. The only group that wins is---Hezbollah.

Not exactly what Israel--or the West--would like.   

As I said from the start of the campaign--the only good approach to this is a well-armed multinational force --not the current token force--stationed on the border.

Israel felt--with justification-- that the provocations had gone too far.

But this response is the most senseless, counterproductive, and brainless one imaginable.

And they will live to regret it--if they're not already doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 11:32 PM

"Israel isn't God" or even Yahweh ... what a ludicrous statement .... of course not. It is a nation of people ... some nice humans, some not so nice humans ... Israel, like any other nation is equal to the sum of it's people.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 11:15 PM

"You do not care about the deaths of civilians at all."

You are very wrong about that.

Israel is not above reproach. If I criticize the govt. of Israel for their politics, you automatically assume that I support Hamas and Hezbollah. I don't. There is a difference between supporting them and saying the people of Lebanon need to be protected from their aggressive neighbor. If it weren't for Hezbollah, Israel would never have left Lebanon.

On the other hand, you seem to applaud Israel and attempt to justify slaughter.

You seem to think that writing Israel a letter will make a difference. Guess what, they won't even listen to the U.N. A letter will make no more difference than winning or losing an argument on Mudcat. You can quote the Koran all you want and it still won't make a difference (especially if it has no bearing on the topic). By now, it is obvious that reason and logic are second only to your blind faith in the power and might of Israel.

Israel isn't God.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:16 PM

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/ambulances-fired-on-by-israel-says-red-cross/2006/07/24/1153593272695.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003147913_civilians24.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:59 PM

p. 158    Requite evil with good and he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend. But none will attain this save those who endure with fortitude and are greatly favoured by Allah."

Always a caveat, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:55 PM

"SIDON, Lebanon - Mideast diplomats were pressing Syria to stop backing Hezbollah in a bid to stop the warfare in Lebanon, but the violence was undiminished, with Israeli missiles killing four people, including a journalist, in a strike on a convoy of fleeing Lebanese."

from the Khaleej Times

The article is balanced (but won't be for those who wish the destruction of Israel and Jews in general).

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:47 PM

Walt, his boys and girls, are not into fact. They are into innuendo and falsehooh. They learned well from Stalin.



"The Daily Star reports, [July 24, 2006]


Israel also targeted Hizbullah's power base in the Bekaa Valley, hitting three factories, a house and bridges and roads. The air strikes ignited large fires, killed at least one civilian and wounded two others.

Three rescuers from the Civil Defense personnel of the Islamic Scout Mission, an association affiliated with the Amal Movement, were wounded after Israeli air raids struck their ambulance as it transported wounded civilians to nearby hospitals, according to Hassan Hamdan, the association's official in the South."

from

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/07/24/18290953.php

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:37 PM

Dianavan:

You do not care about the deaths of civilians at all. This whole damned thing is about winning an argument, which you won't do. Hezbollah and Hamas are wrong. The Israelis are wrong to pursue the course they are. You and your claptrap arguments always take it back to a position that basically says Israel has no right to exist. We will never agree on that. Ever.

I want to know what YOU have done besides make remarks on this site. You written to Hexbollah? Lebanon? Hamas?

I have e-mailed Israel a few times requesting they back off. Can you say the same about H, H and L? Likely not. Gai feifen ahfen yam!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:35 PM

Guest James ... It looks as if your post regarding Red Cross ambulances destroyed is somewhat exaggerated ... It certainly hasn't been on the evening news ... if it was true, it certainly would been .... there are 2 references on the net I found ... 1 from the Sydney Times and 1 from the Arab Monitor ... both relate to ambulances being fired upon ... resulting in no casalties.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:18 PM

Look up, polytheists, Peace.

I don't think this quote has anything to do with the discussion and it just demonstrates how desperate you are to rationalize the over-kill of Israel.

...just when I thought you were beginning to make sense with your post, "If I were Israel, I would unilaterally cease fire. Then the world could see the true nature of Hezbollan."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:30 PM

From the Qur'an (Koran):

"[6.137] And thus their associates have made fair seeming to most of the polytheists the killing of their children, that they may cause them to perish and obscure for them their religion; and if Allah had pleased, they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:22 PM

That's Torah to you, Walt.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:19 PM

The original offer from Hezbollah was for the release of the two captured Israeli soldiers in exchange for the release of Lebanese prisoners held by Israel,one of whom has been in an Israeli prison since 1979 when he was 16 years old.

A swap could have avoided the slaughter of the past few weeks but also of course there is a swap to be done in the Gaza where the Palestinian fighters are holding an Israeli soldier .They want to exchange him for Palestinian women and children being held in Israel jails.

Hezbollah is seen by many in the arab world as a self defence organisation....after all it is Israel which has destroyed the Lebanon twice in twenty years and Hezbollah only came into existence as a result of the first invasion in 1982.

Israel may detest its tactics but what restraint has Israel shown?
Israel bombs,assasinates,shoots,disobeys international laws and indeed the laws of the torah, terrorises ,tortures and illegally imprisons without any apparent restraint.What Israel can do it never fails to overdo!
The people of Palestine demand justice...I do not see how there can be peace while their legitimate rights are denied and while Israel continues to terrorise them.
Walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:57 PM

There is no doubt that Hezbollah, Hamas and Israel's IDF are violating humanitarian law. None at all. But, will not be addressed until an internationa;l force in the region to stop the fighting. Hezbollah has declared, however, that it will not stop firing rockets into Israel. If I were Israel, I would unilaterally cease fire. Then the world could see the true nature of Hezbollan.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:17 PM

True enough James .... they will have to be accountable for that.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,James
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM

It was reported on the BBC news a few minutes ago that two Red Cross ambulances had been destroyed by Israeli air to ground missiles.The video footage showed the ambulances minutes after they had been struck in a built up part of Tyre.If the Red Cross isn't safe then it really is a free fire zone in the Lebanon and Israel is clearly breaking international war.It's leaders must be held to account for the war crimes the Israeli military forces are committing.
James

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:58 PM

In reponse to a probable retort from you dianavan ... that the people of Lebanon just don't have the money ... well, my reponse is that maybe the Hezbollah should have had priority and invested some of the (large amounts) of money in bomb shelters for the citizens instead of weaponry ... a lot of those apartment blocks in Beruit and elswhere you see on TV news coverage are new ... if they needed more money, then goto Syria and Iran who have been supplying them with the arms for protection of it's people first ... after the people have been looked after then start accumulating weapons of destruction to go about whatever your gonna do.

whatever ... no excuse for the powers that be not to look after the people is such volatile environment. They have the money to do it .... don't kid yourself.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:30 PM

I'm the one who originally posted about the bomb shelters in Israel with the comment (wonder why) ... if you read my thread, I stated that all apartment buildings and homes built in Israel (it's not a matter of wealth) abide by building stantard laws (it's the law) to have have bomb shelters. No matter what side your on dianavan, you have to admit this would help in saving lifes during a bombardment. A damned good law to have in the middle east ... regardless if one is a war hawk or not. It at least protects families while government (or political/religeious organization's) agenda's slug it out.

It's your perogative not to have faith in the rough God of Israel. I personally have faith in humanity.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:55 PM

"They have those bomb shelters for a reason. Think about it."

I have thoughe about that.

Maybe thats more a question of affordability. I doubt is you have any more insight to that than I do.

...or is it because there are more Lebanese casualties is that Israel is a much bigger military power?

Maybe its because the Lebanese fleeing their homes.

btw - You worry about your own faith. I have absolutely no faith in the rough God of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,albert TO ROBO
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:04 AM

....No Palestine... you and all the Zionists say....well you would wouldn't you.

Stop reading the fantastical Zionist accounts and start reading the other histories of that land.And isnt it revealing how Israel keeps destroying the historical records of Palestine when and where it can...the Orient House for example. What you don't mention is that the Zionist takeover of Palestine started under the Turkish Ottoman rulers and quickly intensified under the British mandate with the Palestinian inhabitants having no say in the matter or their future.

What is also well hidden from popular knowledge is the willingness of some Zionists to placate the German nazis during the 1930 s . A story that drew howls of Zionist hatred when it was told in Jim Allen's play PERDITION in the early 1980s .

Israel's use of terror as an instrument of state policy has increased on a dramatic scale .You keep on chanting a mantra about 1967 borders as if Israel acquired them by legitimate means.Israel was founded on mass murder,mass terror and grand theft.....but you won't find that in your Zionist histories.
Free Palestine!
Stop The Slaughter in the Lebanon!
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:38 AM

Guest, Albert:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Your history lesson above ignores the history of the Mideast, that there was no "Palestine", that the Jewish settlement of the area occurred in stages including the purchase of land, existing long-time settlements of Jews, and the original UN partition. All of this was legal under any system of government. Your version is incredibly one-sided. And unrelated to the current situation which was created by attacks across the border by first the terrorist organization Hamas and second the terrorist organization Hezbollah. This situation will stop if:


Return the kidnapped Israelis
Stop the rocket attacks on Israel
Lebanon Army to take full control of S. Lebanon

All nice 'n legal

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:40 AM

Dershowitz can hardly be said to be a neutral analyst, but for a man of his eminence to assume that American law applies worldside is extraordinary.