The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 08:34 PM

I have never recorded. My computer has a loud humm and at present no microphone. I generally tell the five minute stories available via my web page. Always positive crowd feedback. I have done some paid work but these days most of my time goes in to writing.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 07:54 PM

How about letting us hear some of your storytelling then?

This site is pretty good for making mp3 files available:

http://www.4shared.com/

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 07:28 PM

Yes my point-its not the quality of the telling but the quality of the story. Presentation in music also is only one small part

For me not to understand and appreciate a song or a story it has to be very badly done indeed- never have heard anything done that poorly. And jokes- remember I said if told. That means if it is all there in the right order. Listen to the ancient field recordings. Lots of those folks would not be given a stage today yet their work is wonderful.

I did not say that you had to stick to local material and talent but that there was nothing wrong with it and that locals need no one else for inspiration other than themselves. You dont need outside help. That is my point. So dont adapt it to your negativity in regard to FREE folk.

When you bring in outside talent you raise costs, raising costs is counter productive when it comes to accessibility and by the way if you think you need inspiration from affar there is always you tube and recordings many of which are free.

With all of you telling me that folk musicians have no money it is surprising how so many of them are out there all the time on one tour or the next. I dont have that kind of money for travel.

So either they have money or they dont. Maybe they are getting government funds therefore the real cost is borne by the out of work and hungry whose funds they are using up to be at a festival near you.

And by the way when they get to town land in some hotel drop in to the festival for an hour and its back to the hotel dont think that anyone has learned anything it is mostly entertainment.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 07:27 PM

"they can't sing for sour owl jowls. "

Would that be a sour owl jowl's son?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:34 PM

"A good story does not rely on the teller for its goodness. The same for songs quality is not essential when the song or story is good."

Another glaring example of not getting the whole picture. Yes, indeed. A song or story may be very good indeed, and its quality as it exists in a book or out there in the ether may be that of an exemplary specimen. But we've all had the experience of hearing someone completely screw up a really funny joke because they can't tell a joke to save their soul! Or someone totally carve up a beautiful song because they can't sing for sour owl jowls.

The inherent quality of something as intangible as a song or story simple fails to come across unless the song is at least adequately sung and the story is told with some basic understanding of what it's about.

DO think things through, Conrad.

####

In the U.K., there is a ninnyhammer who is quite similar to Conrad.

Conrad fancies himself a "visionary artist" and expresses himself by filling his yard with debris gleaned from various dumps in his vicinity. Armies of garden gnomes, and miscellaneous parts removed from department store manikins and stashed here and there. He also glues odds and ends to the hoods, roofs, trunk-lids, and sides of old automobiles and calls them "art cars."

The Bozo in the U.K. styles himself as a poet. He writes pure doggerel about his travels, the kind of stuff that a grade school kid could write if so motivated, and he plays the recorder haltingly and attempts to sing (badly off-pitch most of the time).

This Bozo also says we're doing it all wrong. You should sing only songs that are indigenous to the area in which you live. If you live in Cornwall, thou shalt not sings songs from Yorkshire. If you are Scottish, how dare you sing a song from Wales? And for that matter, no American songs either. American singers who sing songs from the British Isles should be flogged.

His advice to me—now, keep in mind that my great-grandfather came to the U. S. from Scotland (with the Hudson's Bay Company), and my grandparents on my mother's side came to the U. S. from Sweden—is that, since I am an American, I should lay aside my (Spanish) guitar. I should beat a drum and sing Native American chants.

Now, although I've heard this sort of thing on television from time to time, Native American chants are totally alien to me. And in addition to that, I once met a Native American who happens to have a degree in Anthropology. He said that although it qualifies as "ethnomusicology," and is worthy of study, he has mixed feelings about taping and listening to Indian chanting out of its natural habitat, even for study, because most of the chants are related to spiritual ceremonies of some kind, and should only be performed and heard when in the context of the related ceremonies. Otherwise, it verges on something that could be considered as "sacreligious." So out of respect for Native Americans if for no other reason, I don't see myself beating a drum and doing Native American chants.

Nevertheless, that's what this Bozo tells me I must do, otherwise I am committing the mortal sin of transgressing his concept of what is correct and what is unacceptable in the realm of folk music.

The amount of abysmal ignorance and rampart stupidity in the world is really appalling. But as to the blithering pontifications of these numbskulls, ninnyhammers, and nincompoops, let us take the advice that Virgil gave Dante as he observed the self-righteous inhabitants of the lowest level of Hell: "Let us think no more about them, but look once and pass on."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:17 PM

"quality is not essential when the song or story is good"

This is just stupid. Stories and songs would never be passed on if they weren't entertaining.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:02 PM

Yes from time to time people traveled. Generally however, not far. Of course exceptions like O'Carrolan who traveled to the continent but yes in deed generally there were many many communities where traveling far afield was difficult and music was composed locally. In essence it is not necessary to have outside influences to produce music. Yes outside influences did from time to time occur but not essential. Anyone can compose music anytime anywhere.

Of course transportation was much better as time went on. Especially in the 19th century however it is absolutely not necessary for the process.

A good story does not rely on the teller for its goodness. The same for songs quality is not essential when the song or story is good.

There are the exceptional greats who are good and then there are the rest of them. One can always cite exceptions however, many too many musicians are overly professional. Untouchables in it for fame....usually found out at the pool after their performance or socializing only with other musicians.

I stick to short Irish stories although well versed in the ancient longer ones. My web pages of both early Irish tales and five minute tales were the first of their kind years back. They are provided to the world FREE for everyone.

mikesamwild- brilliant exactly not just hero worshipers but doers.

You do not have to be physically isolated to cultivate the local, home grown and the FREE. It is a myth that we need specialists. Again the story is the treasure not the teller. One does not need polished performance simple telling will do. The professional bit is all hype and as it costs money immediately limits access to those who can afford it. Or those who can socialize it at the expense of the poor and needy for whom programs are now being cut. Irish storytelling flourished well before government grants.

Yes cultural grants are also declining actually we should not need them if we had FREE folk.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 04:29 PM

Maybe if we stayed in our locality and community we'd get back to being traditional musicians and singers rather than folkies

Debatable - and now impossible. In any case, earlier communities, in this country, at any rate, were not a series of isolated pockets of civilisation. People travelled, and spread goods, news, words and music around the country. Have a read of "The Time Traveller's Guide To Medieval England" by Ian Mortimer - this gives a good account of the social movement of people and society generally in the centuries after the Norman Conquest, and is a fascinating read.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 04:17 PM

Let's hear a sample of YOUR storytelling, Conrad.

Here's another great collector and teller: Syd Lieberman . Do you see the buttons for downloading? He has released all his recordings, both copyright-free traditional tales and Poe stories, and his personal tellings of his own and our nation's history FOR FREE. People still pay to see him tell in person and buy his cds.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: mikesamwild
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 03:04 PM

Maybe if we stayed in our locality and community we'd get back to being traditional musicians and singers rather than folkies

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 02:46 PM

". . . uppidy folk pros. . . ."

I've been at this—lemme see, now—since 1952, I've seen some big name singers of folk songs and had a chance to meet and talk to many of them. Names you would recognize, including such people as Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger (a couple of times), Joan Baez, Richard Dyer-Bennet, and on and on. I met them either when they traveled through Seattle, or when I went to events out of town, such as the Berkeley Folk Festivals in the 1960s. NOT ONE of them was anywhere near what could be called "uppity." In fact, every single one of them was friendly, outgoing, responsive to any questions, and generally very helpful and encouraging. Both Guy Carawan and Barbara Dane, after hearing me sing at a post-concert party (they were interested in hearing local singers) made some good suggestions as to a couple of songs they thought I could do particularly well (Thanks again, folks!!).

Conrad, you don't know what the hell you are talking about. "Uppity folk pros" and "jet set folk musicians?" This graphically proves that you are totally ignorant of what professional singers of folk songs are really like. And in your abysmal ignorance, you are contemptuous of and insulting toward some of the people who are doing far more to spread interest in folk music than you ever dreamed of. Otherwise, you would be a whole lot more appreciative and much more polite and respectful.

If things were the way YOU want them to be (all free, strictly local), the ultimate result would be that folk music would die out entirely and be replaced by whatever is currently playing on pop radio stations. Rock, hip-hop, rap, and "easy listening" (elevator) music. Singers of folk songs would gradually fade away, to be replaced by kids forming garage bands and doing rock.

So you want to tell stories. Are you familiar with the work of Richard Chase and his collections of folk tales and folk songs (among his published collections of tales and songs, he has one of the best and most unusual versions of The Three Ravens [Child #26] that I've ever found). How about a story teller with the unusual name of Pleasant DeSpain? I've heard him giving a story-telling "concert" a couple of times, and he's bloody brilliant! Fascinating stuff! VERY entertaining!

Look them up. Try to LEARN something yourself instead of wasting everybody's time by trying to tell those who ALREADY KNOW what they are doing that they're doing it all wrong, and then displaying the magnitude of your ignorance by trying to tell them how you think they should be doing it.

[Now, sports fans, wait a bit and we'll hear Conrad bitch and complain that he went looking for Chase's and DeSpain's books of collections of folk tales and discovered that he'd have to PAY for them instead of getting them for free. And because they're folk tales, Chase and DeSpain should give them away FREE!]

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 10:28 AM

"I want to tell stories. Whats the problem. you are protecting a class of uppidy folk pros. Is that it.?"

Like it or not, storytelling for a crowd is a performance art. Time is limited, and the venue you wanted was theme-oriented. If you consider yourself a professional, an audition certainly is no insult. If you need practice, most storytellers begin at libraries and churches. Feel free to volunteer your time and polish your act.

If by "uppidy folk pros" you are referring to the tiny community of professional storytellers, you can't have met any of them. 60 people certainly don't constitute a class.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 07:19 AM

Ralph Jordan - Folk Star! :-)

I dipped out of this thread because I was fed up with the taradiddle being peddled by Conrad, but this:

People have played and composed music locally for centuries.

simply demonstrates his complete ignorance of any musical process, where travelling people, including itinerant musicians and workers and peddlers of music went from place to place - a process by which music spread from community to community. Let's take just one example - the spread of ragtime in the US in the 1890s. I quote from my 1958 copy of "They All Played Ragtime" by Rudi Blesh & Harriet Janis:

So there existed in Sedalia and throughout the country, a large class of Negro - and some white - pianists, many of them highly gifted and all of them close to the source of folk music. Drifting from one open town to the next, following the fairs, the races and the excursions, these men formed a real folk academy. After the tonks and houses closed, they would meet in some hospitable back-room rendezvous to play on into the morning. Ideas were freely exchanged...

Note that they were travelling from place to place to earn a living. You see, Conrad, even the most cursory reading and research on your part would reveal to you that your knowledge of the business is zilch. You appear to be spouting bullshit from a baseline of no knowledge whatsoever. Now, if you want to provide some decent supporting evidence for your ridiculous statements - let's have it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:52 AM

I'm still struggling with this concept of "Folk Stars"
Come on.....name one...Just one...Please...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:47 AM

People have played and composed music locally for centuries. We really dont need folk stars traveling from place to place collecting our money.
Keep it local. Make it more accessible.

As I said I appreciate professional musicians.

I do not appreciate virtuoso playing for its own sake. Ordinary music played from the heart wins all the time.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:43 AM

And where do you hear new songs if you are just listening to the same people all the time ?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 12:53 AM

I think you're right, Don, but there's a distinct whiff of bullshit on the air too.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:55 PM

". . . you are protecting a class of uppidy folk pros."

Methinks I detect the rancid reek of envy.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 10:33 PM

We never ever needed traveling musicians we need to spread it locally.

Tell that one to the travellers..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 09:29 PM

We never ever needed traveling musicians we need to spread it locally.

Look folk music has always been local. No jet setters need apply. Grow them at home.

Ok next....

I dont want to sit by the pool. I want to tell stories. Whats the problem. you are protecting a class of uppidy folk pros. Is that it.?

Make music not money and the money will come!

Money is a lot of work accounting and such music alone is a lot of pleasure.

Dont charge money it sucks.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 09:24 PM

Nobody is making excuses.

"Dont mention house concerts what could be open and free gatherings are the most closed and elitist of all. Get rid of them or set them right."

I think this may be the crux of Conrad's delusions right here. As I recall, way up-thread he says he went to a house concert once, expecting it to by free, and they wanted to charge him to get in.

There is nothing wrong with house concerts the way they are right now. As a matter of fact, there is a great deal that is very right about house concerts.

House concerts don't cost a great deal to set up. All you need is a house with a living room or other fairly sizable room that can accommodate a fair number of people. Twenty-five, thirty, thirty-five people perhaps, sitting on sofas, chairs, perhaps folding chairs, on cushions, cross-legged on the floor, whatever, without people having to sit in each others' laps. The setting is intimate. No PA system is necessary. Interaction between the singer and the audience is easy. Most singers I know like this kind of setting very much.

And this liking of an intimate, informal setting is not just limited to singers of folk songs. Linda Ronstadt once commented that she much prefers to sing in small, intimate settings as opposed to the usual big arenas where the lights are so bright she can't even see the audience and where a guitar riff from a rock concert held the previous week is still reverberating through the place.

If you check the internet, there is a whole network of people all over the country who open their houses for house concerts, and a singer who is aware of this network can do fairly extensive concert tours consisting of house concerts. This gives an opporutunity for very good, but often not well-known singers to become better known while singing for a lot of people all over an area of the country.

Otherwise, many fine singers who deserve to be heard might languish in obscurity, depriving others from the opportuntiy to enjoy hearing them.

Those who put on these concerts (those who live in the houses) are motivated, not by greed for profits, but by an intense interest in the music itself. This gives them a chance to hear the singer up close, and usually put them up for a night or two, and chat with them some before they move on to their next engagement. And more often than not, the money taken in (usually in the form of a "recommended donation" rather than a fixed fee, which avoids the necessity of entertainment licenses, bookwork, and having to pay local entertainment taxes) is given entirely to the singer. The singer most certainly does not get rich this way, but he or she can at least pay their traveling and living expenses while doing so.

There are advantages to everyone involved.

In addition, house concerts are very much in the traditions of the troubadours and minstrels who traveled around singing in private homes (manor houses, castles) for the lord of the manor and his family and friends. And in the traditions of other musicians as well. Mozart and Beethoven more often than not debuted their works at recitals that their patrons put on in their own homes. This was how they made their livings—so they could keep on composing their music!

Elitist? Modern house concerts are far less "elitist" than such things used to be, when the host or patron might be a duke—or a king. Most house concerts, and concerts at other small venues, are generally announced through internet web sites, or through newsletters. If they seem "exclusive" because, for example, the address is not advertised—only a phone number—this is because there is limited space, and the host wants you to make a reservation over the phone ahead of time (first come, first served) so he or she doesn't have a mob of people outside their house grousing because the place is already full up. It only makes sense!

The natural habitat of folk music is not the bloody-great folk festival with thousands of people attending, whether free or not. It is in front of the kitchen sink when a mother and daughter are singing while they're doing the dishes, or a couple of guys out on the front porch passing a banjo back and forth. Or the deck of a ship raising anchor, hoisting sail, or sitting around in the fo'c'sle playing a concertina and singing to while away the off-watch. Or swinging a sledge hammer on a chain gang. Or sitting by the fire in a cabin in a logging camp, singing "Come All Ye's." THAT is what "folk experiences" are! Not some huge folk festival!

So if Conrad is looking for a free "folk experience," I'd suggest that he sign about a whaling ship or a windjammer, or get himself busted so he'll wind up wearing stripes, with a chain on his leg, lining track with a bunch of other similarly clad guys.

The nearest most people can have to a "folk experience" these days is for a bunch of friends to get together in someone's living room to swap songs and sing for each other (case of beer or jug of screw-top wine optional).

NOT some huge folk festival!

Some dedicated people devote their lives to a particular activity, spend their time, energy, dedication—and money, oftentimes great amounts of it—to develop their talents and hone the skills necessary to pursue this activity. And when large numbers of people are more than happy to pay good money to hear them do what they do, there are always people like Conrad who make all kinds of excuses—yes, my opening statement on this post is incorrect; there ARE people making excuses!—claiming that these dedicated and talented people should simply write off their expenses in developing their talents and turn around and give the fruits of it to people like him—for nothing.

Why should they? Give me one good reason!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 05:13 PM

Well, if the community thinks its a burden I guess they won't repeat it. But do you know what? I bet the community had a really great time, and that it brought the community together, which is why both public agencies and private businesses and organisations felt it was worth supporting.

It can't be too much of a burden, or too difficult to organise, since they've managed to hold it 33 times. I would guess they've got it about right.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 02:00 PM

I agree with the concept of free folk music, world peace, rain that falls every day, gently, between 2 and 6 AM, morning fogs that disappear by 9 AM, useful and productive work for everyone who wants to work, a living wage even for the ones who don't particularly want to work, a chicken in every pot.

Concepts are easy.

I am annoyed that you continue to post here, constantly referring to "you people."

I'm sorry Artscape refused to pay your fee. I'm sorry you didn't get a free hotel room with pool. I'm sorry that no professional musicians want to hang around with you after they perform. I'm sorry that someone wanted to listen to you tell a story before putting you on the stage.

That doesn't make it right for you to troll this community with inflammatory posts. If you're just engaging in wishful thinking, say so. If you're as deluded as you seem, I'm sorry for that, too.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 12:46 PM

What you are proposing would limit folk music, not expand it.

At present, festivals put on performers from all around the country, and even from overseas. Why should a performer travel all the way to Baltimore from California, or the UK, at their own expense? Especially as they'll be too busy trying to find smaller gigs to earn a living, since you've cut off their income from festivals.

The sort of festivals you are advocating would have to rely on the same network of local performers who could afford to attend without incurring substantial travelling expenses. The range of music audiences would be able to listen to would be drastically reduced, not expanded.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:51 AM

Another great semi freed festival

http://tpff.org/10/index.htm

Takoma Park Folk Festival

But even with volunteers and volunteer performers still so much on the web page about donors, and money, and organizations benefiting from donor money....its like a great socialist hand out event.

I really think that there are too many extras involved and that makes such an event hard to manage and repeat and a burden for the community.
Again with all our many drastic needs one would think there would be little grant money devoted to music. It can stand alone.

But at least the musicians donate time.
I always give credit where due.

But it must be consuming a large chunk of money just to gather and make music which requires none at all.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

I agree Mike, and a lot of that kind of thing still goes on, and much of it is free. However it's a big step from that kind of event to a full-blown festival.

Perhaps Bradfield is the sort of event that Conrad has in mind, although it is scarcely big enough to qualify as a "festival" in my mind. For those not familiar with it, Bradfield Traditional Music Weekend is held in Mark Davies' barn and a few local pubs, and an excellent thing it is too. But even a small event like that, which meets most of Conrad's requirements, incurs costs which have to be met, and has to make a modest charge and even then relies on the generosity of Mark and his wife Joan to continue to support it. There's simply no way it could be run for free.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:40 AM

Exactly! Enough of these excuses.

Yes I support my two events. I also perform free. All day yesterday and basically whenever invited.

I am already living the life! Thats why it bothers me to see others seem to be human jukeboxes and wont do anything unless supported by lots of volunteers who worship them.

Freedom of assembly means assemble and be free. Not assemble and worry that it might be illegal.

So you simply go to a free public park and happen to draw a crowd so what.

We do this all the time with artcar parades. A big one in LA is just a bunch of cars going to the same place on the same route. Therefore, no fees easy. If you are OPTOMISTIC and TRY

So far it just looks like excuses made on behalf of money making professionals who would stand to benefit under the freed music paradigm anyway.

Come up with a real reason you cant come play and that we can all volunteer or none at all.

Yes some do this from time to time but why not all the time?

I have no problem with pro musicians just that they need to do what is right for the expansion of the tradition and I have made a good case that it is best to limit costs if the tradition is to be most accessible, open to more newcomers, and expand.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: mikesamwild
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 10:06 AM

Wasn't it simple when people went to where two tracks crossed and played and people came to dance and meet neighbors?


Sessions, pot luck suppers, barn dances, kitchen sessions , pub sessions, playing in parks and squares, secret raves in the woods, camping weekends, garden parties, taking a bunkhouse or school etc for a weekend morris meet, street parties under some pretext or other!.


Lots of posibilities.

Anywhere a gang of poeple can come together and feel secure and let their hair down without too much restriction can spark music and dance and song.


Bradfield weekend suits me fine but Mark does subsidise it out of his pocket.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 09:20 AM

Just because something works does not mean it is the best way

Of course it doesn't. So prove that your way is better. Convince people that your changes are "reasonable". You've failed to put forward any reasoned argument to support your proposals, which appear to be based on your (erroneous) belief that people are getting rich from folk festivals, and your apparent contempt for those who attend them, whether as audience or volunteers. Put on a proper free festival entirely with volunteers and without taking public money, and demonstrate to us that it is better.

So you do two events a year totally free? Big deal! How many events do you do which are not free? Or is that all you do? In which case you are hardly qualified to tell others, many of whom do several events a week (some of them for free), how to run a festival.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 07:25 AM

Trash is not necessary or unavoidable- if you have free trash pick up professional musicians looking for profit will of course not waste their valuable time doing such work as making sure people pick up their own trash!

Dont mention house concerts what could be open and free gatherings are the most closed and elitist of all. Get rid of them or set them right.

Just because something works does not mean it is the best way what a frail argument to stop reasonable change. Try again.

People produce rubbish because you let them. Back to the national and state parks model which works just fine- another weak argument.

Again great reviews for the Hop Fest my friend Keith and his morris side were there and I received good reports. Keep up the good work but always press for subtle changes which will improve things even though things are working.

You might try making bin liners available to the public and make signs explaining what pack it in pack it out means and I bet you will find that the public will take it up.

Yes I do two events a year totally free.

Why do we have performers that need to make a living?

Ok they are ok but keep your hands out of public events and socialized music.

If you take a large festival and within it create many many small stages the experience will be much better for all concerned.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 06:56 AM

Conrad, you seem to have a pretty low opinion of people who attend festivals. The volunteers are "stupid", the audiences are "manipulated", now it appears that they are "mindless" too.

Since you seem to believe that the essence of folk music is small, more intimate settings, I am surprised that you would prefer people to make money from these rather than from large events. The reality, which has been pointed out by people from both sides of the pond, is that there are a great many small events, and many of these are free. However there is simply not enough to be made from small venues for most performers to make a living - they need the big festivals as well. So the big festivals are in fact helping to support the smaller venues.

Stop asking other people to fix a problem which they don't recognise exists in the first place. You haven't put forward any coherent arguments to support your case, you just keep repeating unjustified assertions - to me, that's "mindless". If you think the way festivals are run is wrong, then lead by example - demonstrate to us that your ideas not only work, but work better. Otherwise shut up.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 02:14 AM

Totally agree Don.
It's inevitable that any gathering of people will produce some rubbish. Not because they are bad. It's just a fact.
A lot of the organisers of the Hop Fest can be seen toting bin liners on the Sunday evening. Even if they've been performing earlier in the day. Why?
Because we want to leave the town as we found it. And we'd like to show the council that it is a good event, and can we come back next year?
It's a principle that has worked for many years. It's called simple courtesy.
I can guarantee that by 9 o'clock tonight. The stages will have been dismantled, PA systems packed away, the town put back to normal, as if nothing had happened.
There will also be some very happy traders counting their takings, and looking forward a year hence to the next one.
As for the visitors to the town?
The regulars will have seen it before.
The newcomers will have experienced a joyful experience that they don't get at home.
The winners? Well just about everyone! Businesses, musicians, street theatre artists, The brewery! The Morris sides who turn up for nothing.
Who loses? nobody really.
But, It needs to be organised, and it is..with everyone doing their bit.
Free? Yes, of course it is.
Expensive? In terms of hard work by the volunteers, Yes.
I say again Conrad. Why not try it yourself.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 01:22 AM

"According to Don that atmosphere means irresponsible tossing of trash."

That's not what I said, Conrad. What I am saying is that any large crowd invariably leaves a fair amount of detritus behind it, and this is not limited to people attending folk festival, free or otherwise. It's just a fact of life, and someone needs to clean up after an event of any size. Even in a concert hall where people have paid mucho bucks to hear music of any kind, there are usually people who leave programs and ticket stubs behind. Movie theaters have candy wrappers and popcorn containers left behind after every movie showing.

It happens to be one of the side-effects of any gathering of any size. YOU'VE never tossed an empty Milk Duds box under your seat in a movie theater, have you Conrad?

There are huge folk festivals like the Newport Folk Festivals and the Northwest Folklife Festivals, some charging admission and others free; there are concerts in theaters and concert halls of various sizes, usually charging admission but sometimes free; there are coffeehouses and clubs, some with cover charges and minimums and some not; there are house concerts in intimate, comfortable settings, some paid and some free of charge. And there are parties—"hoots"—where a group of friends get together somewhere to sing for each other just for fun.

I see no good reasons to change something that has been working fine for decades and is still working fine, just because some self-styled "visionary artist" has developed a bad case of myopia and can't see beyond his own parsimonious desires.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:54 PM

According to Don that atmosphere means irresponsible tossing of trash.

Easy to be happy with something that is mindless and as long as volunteers support it profitable.

Happiness does not make it right.

Free the big venues make your money in the private small venues.

Take the big venues and divide the stages into reasonable small ones.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:00 PM

why dont you who are doing change your paradigm.

Because most of us are very happy with the way things are. Hundreds of thousands of people get to enjoy folk music in a good atmosphere. If some musicians manage to earn a living providing it, that's fine by us.

You're the one who wants to change the paradigm. You do something about it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 05:16 PM

Exactly so, Crow Sister!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 05:02 PM

I think there's something here that's confused the issue also. Conrad believes folk music is for all. I agree. But he equates that with people who don't want to sing or play for themselves, being entertained by professionals who have spent many years honing their skills. Being entertained isn't the same thing as being informed.

As far as I'm concerned, kids aught to learn about their folk musical heritage at school. Then so long as they know it's there, it;s up to then if they want to have a go themselves. It's no muciscian's *duty* to perform for free in order to educate others. Many do though, irrespective of that.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 04:50 PM

Is this what you call a discussion, Conrad?

Your paradigm appears to be much like your special festival trousers - full of shit.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 04:45 PM

I love the idea of free festivals. But without local authority support it can only work if everyone puts something in. If it's supposed to be a minority of activists and artists providing a free event for a largely passive 'feed-me' audience, I can't see how a venture like that can be sustainable long-term.
Small local folk events do sound a grand idea and it'd be fabulous to have more of them in the UK, but only if they can find some support from local business or arts bodies.
In principle it's all good. But I've heard far better practical suggestions from Jim Carroll who's seen local folk fests work in Ireland. I'll try to find them.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 04:26 PM

Ok we are back to that re-run why dont you just do it yourself.

Not the point of discussion although I do quite a bit myself, just back from a unitarian church festival donated all day to it had a blast.

The point is why dont you who are doing change your paradigm.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 02:42 PM

"Don't you have hungry and homeless and out of work folks there?"

Gosh! I didn't know that if people are hungry and homeless and out of work, going to a free folk music event was high on their list of priorities! Wow! Learn something new every day!!

"I know many folk musicians who have perfectly good day jobs and would not qualify as welfare cases who are on the public trough and play at government funded events."

Really!?? Okay, name a few. (I didn't think so!)

"SOCIALIZED" folk music events? Does Glenn Beck know about this!??

Conrad, I refer you back up to Howard's post just above, at 04 Sep 10 - 01:23 p.m., and to Ralphie's post immediately above. There's your solution. If you are REALLY interested in the kind of events you say you want, then DO it. That's what other people do. Even bloated capitalistic singers of folk songs such as myself.

If not, then just shut the hell up and let the people who are really interested in spreading interest in folk music get on with it.

The truth is that not only do you want it all for free, you want someone else to do it for you.

Like I said above, you're the kind of person who gives freeloaders a bad name!

Don Firth (proud to be a bloated capitalist singer of folk songs)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 02:17 PM

As I've said. The Faversham Hop festival is (apparently, having just spoken to someone there) Doing very nicely, as usual. And It is doing very nicely because there is a core committee making it work. Any other event is just busking!
Nowt wrong with that....but it's just busking.....
Faversham is a free town festival.
Provided by the musicians who live there (or nearby). For the people who live in Faversham.
Surely this is exactly what you are proposing?
And it's taken a dozen years to make it what it is today. I feel sad that I can't be there. But I know how wonderful it is.

So, off you go and do the same thing, and leave the rest of us to actually do what you haven't got the gumption to do yourself.
Turn your ideas into deeds, and then we may take you a little more seriously. Until then......Shut it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:33 PM

Toilets are for wimps, Howard.

It's the clog and morris dancers I'm really looking forward to.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:23 PM

OK Conrad, since it's so easy, why don't you do it? Put on a festival - a proper festival, not a few people in your backyard. It doesn't need to be very big, a few thousand visitors will do to start with.

Find someone to donate a venue. Find someone to provide portable toilets with no charge, and a waste disposal utility to get rid of the contents for nothing. Find an insurance company willing to provide third-party liability cover for nothing. Persuade the performing rights societies to issue their licences for free. Persuade your local government to issue whatever permits you need for free. Get the police to provide their services for free (you think they won't need to control traffic?). Print the programmes and advertising flyers and posters for nothing.

Oh, and I nearly forgot. Find performers good enough and well-known enough to attract a festival-sized audience who are all willing to perform for nothing.

I look forward to reading the enthusiastic reviews.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:16 PM

More should understand that when you open venues up people will come and in greater numbers benefiting the entire place.

Then the venues have to get bigger to accommodate the extra numbers, and the expenses get bigger as a result, regardless of where the money comes from. Bigger amplification is needed because the extra people will be further from the sound source, and the inevitable steaming great pile of shit will be proportionately bigger.

Why don't you just tow a pot on wheels behind you? Or better yet wear astronaut pants.

That is indeed one solution, and no more absurd than the rest of your ideas. This, presumably, would apply to the (volunteering) artists as well?

You paint a wonderful picture, Conrad, and we can all look forward to seeing Carthy/Watersons performing for free in their shit filled astronaut pants, heading the bill at a three day hot summer festival. I bet they can't wait.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 08:22 AM

Well, I'm glad we agree on something. Remember that The Hop fest has taken many years to grow, and it's not so good if it pisses with rain, but thats only happened a couple of times to my knowledge. and it looks like they've got good weather this weekend too.
But the only way to do it is by having a hard core of enthusiasts ,with the suitable skills. You still have to hire staging, PA, crowd barriers, St Johns ambulance. You have to get permission to shut off the streets so negotiations with the police are mandatory. One person couldn't just turn up and do it on a Saturday afternoon. The Hop has a committee who spend several months organising it. And it works.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 08:11 AM

I know - you are quite correct. More should understand that when you open venues up people will come and in greater numbers benefiting the entire place.

The event sounds wonderful. I know the area well. Some day I will get there again.

Just so we start getting festivals off the socialist dole. A small step really. It just means finding people in other sectors willing to donate for a few days a year.

Perhaps as they appreciate the value of the event and combine that with an appreciation of how municipal coffers are limited and stretched these days this too will happen.

Sounds like a great event a model for others.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:55 AM

OK Conrad Will you listen.
Faversham is a small market town near Canterbury in Kent. Home of the Shepherd Neame brewery.
I lived there for many years and was a member of the festival band who would play at the start of the two days (a sort of overture for the day).
Apart from maybe 1 or 2 headliners, virtually every performer lives locally, (and that includes some pretty well known names) and performs for free, so that the towns businesses benefit from the visitors (normally about 1500 people a day at a guess)
Little money is spent on advertising. it's not needed. The town is pretty heaving the whole weekend.
Every shop and bar is festooned with freshly harvested Hop Bines (Hence the name of the festival)
It is always a pleasure to give something back to a beautiful town by providing our musical services for nothing, and all the shops and pubs show a profit. I say again, Where is the exploitation there?
You really shouldtry it. It works, and works well.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:15 AM

That is wonderful! Great for access.

One slight problem

"its funded by the council and the local business community"

Oh that means that dedication to the music is skin deep. Musicians or someone probably paid.

Don't you have hungry and homeless and out of work folks there?

One of my main concerns is that welfare is not the way to go for folk music. It is artificial and not sustaining. I know many folk musicians who have perfectly good day jobs and would not qualify as welfare cases who are on the public trough and play at government funded events.

One the main problems with socialized folk music is that it is limited the second is that it goes away and can not be depended on.
If you are not dependent upon limited funds you can hold more events.

A good start but I would suggest removal of the socialist teet.

Around here pro musicians have adapted by simply playing more paying private gigs- weddings and funerals, now that they are not booked up with socialized events.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:11 AM

The beer prices ar exactly the same as any other week. But the pubs sell a lot more. One pub in Sidmouth only survives the rest of the year on the takings it makes in Folk week. I don't call that exploitation. But excuse me, I'm off to sit by my pool have a Pimms and snigger at all those poor proles that I have fleeced this summer. Poor saps.