BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 10:49 AM

"Let's wait for details Jim."
The Israelis have already held their hands up to this one Keith "for the defence of Israel's borders" is their line - but thanks for your explanation in advance, it was fully anticipated, late in fact!
"Henceforth YOU WILL BE IGNORED!"
Good luck with that one Don!
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that would be like pretending you haven't got a nasty dose of the clap.
I've just made a similar declaration of intent on the Famine thread, but I don't hold out much hope unless I can persuade my GP to immunise me.
Perhaps we should do what they did at Eyam and isolate ourselves so he can't infect anybody else!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 09:01 AM

to justify the need for that space.

Well, I dunno, Don - "Lebensraum" was an important component of Nazi ideology in Germany, and they never justified it, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:09 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:23 AM

You have accused me of making things up on several occasions, including some for which I have been able to supply proof.

In every case your accusation was a lie.

Of all the posters on this site you are the most biased, the most bigotted, the most xenophobic and the most dishonest.

In future, no post from you will receive a response from me.

To me, you do not exist.""

FFS Get the message. I do not want any communication with you!

Henceforth YOU WILL BE IGNORED!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 07:24 AM

Let's wait for details Jim.

Don, those bloody immigrants coming here and getting all the best houses, right?

The fact is that after 40+ years, they only represent 13% of the population and occupy 2% of the land.

The whining is all about politics and race.

Population density of West Bank is similar to SE England.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:47 AM

I don't expect we'll get a response to the fact reported this morning that four Israeli soldiers have been injured in an incursion into Lebanese territory - they stood on a land main.
Their illegal incursion was part of a larger one carried ot to "protect Israel's borders"
It seems the hope of any peace treaty is rapidly disappearing into the sunset.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:40 AM

From the Jewish Daily Forward

For those who constantly repeat the Israeli government propaganda, this is well worth reading, especially as it is from an Israeli publication.

""The number of Palestinians living in Area C may be small, but the area they live in constitutes 62% of the total West Bank and includes its most fertile and resource-rich land. No less significantly, this section of the West Bank encompasses all of Israel's Jewish settlements. And lately, voices on the right that may be part of Israel's next ruling coalition are calling for the outright, unilateral annexation of this West Bank sector.'

Those advocating this move notably include Israel's minister of public diplomacy, Yuli Edelstein, who is a senior member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's ruling Likud Party, and his fellow party member Ze'ev Elkin, a top Likud Knesset member.

The head of Israel's Jewish Home party, which will be the third largest in Israel's recently elected parliament, is also urging that Israel take this step. Like many others, Naftali Bennett, the party chief, is attracted by the prospect of absorbing the lion's share of the West Bank's land and a minimum number of its Palestinian residents.

"There are 350,000 Israelis living in Area C and only 50,000 Arabs," he told Israel's Ynet news website in February 2012. "They will become full-fledged Israeli citizens and according to this plan no one — neither a Jew nor an Arab — would be driven out of his home."

But right now, charge critics, Palestinians are, indeed, being driven out of their homes in Area C as the possibility of Israeli annexation emerges.

A 2011 research report conducted by the European Union noted that in 1967 between 200,000 and 320,000 Palestinians lived in the Jordan Valley, most of which is in Area C. But demolition of Palestinian homes and prevention of new buildings has seen the number drop to 56,000, the report said. In a similar period, it added, the Jewish population in Area C has grown from 1,200 to 310,000.

In many ways, the challenges confronting the residents of this tiny village exemplify the issues at stake.

The IDF order to demolish the Nabi Samwil school's toilet is part of a broader building ban it is enforcing, based on a 1997 designation of the area in which the village sits as a national park. Israel views all of the sites in which Nabi Samwil's Palestinians live as illegal structures.

That designation contrasts with the situation just across the road in the Har Shmuel Jewish settlement, where many new villas are under construction as part of the "natural growth" of the community. In Nabi Samwil, as elsewhere in Palestinian villages of Area C, not only is natural growth not allowed, it is actively stymied, according to international and Israeli critics.

"There is a definite preference for allocating land to settlements while embittering Palestinian lives to the point where they will leave," said Alon Cohen-Lifshitz, who scrutinizes Israeli land and housing plans for Area C for Bimkom, an Israeli non-governmental organization that promotes progressive planning policies. Cohen-Lifshitz terms this a "silent transfer" of Palestinians from Area C.""

Comments? (preferrably more reasoned and logical than "Israel denies it")

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:23 AM

Small correction! Latest figures show 4.2 million Palestinians in total.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:19 AM

In this case Jim. there is another very good reason for the settlers being resented.

They occupy just 2% of the West bank, but require 60% of it to protect themselves being polluted by the presence of the indiginous population they have forcibly excluded.

They need room for their rapidly increasing population to thrive, and they acquire it by enclosing 2 million human beings in just 40% of the West Bank,

To put it another way, based upon that mindset, before the Israeli settlers begin to feel crowded, it'll be standing room only in the Palestinian area.

If there is, according to the Israeli government, room for 2 million Palestians in their area, then there is room for 3 million people in the area occupied by 367,000 Israelis. They'll be needing some fantastic breeding programme to justify the need for that space.

The above is intended to inform those egregious idiots who actually believe the reason for expansion is population growth.

A look at the map will show the area of land occupied by 6 million Israelis, against the area into which 3.7 million Palestians have been compacted.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:36 AM

"it is something else about them that makes them resented."
It is indeed - pure blind bigoted hatred on the part of you and your kind.
It served to provide the Southern States of America with its 'Strange Fruit', why not Britain?
Facts really do get in the way of a good story and are best ignored
Keep it up Keithie - including your rabid anti-immigration campaign, it helps pass an entertaining rainy day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:13 AM

It is a FACT that the settlers are Jews.
Sorry.

The claim that they are illegal is based on Geneva convention.
It is disputed that it applies to this migration because it is not "forced."

Without immigration, room would have to be found for an extra 70 000 people every year anyway.
It is not the number of immigrants that is significant, it is something else about them that makes them resented.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 02:44 AM

Missed a bit
"Some of us think that immigration enriches a society."
Unless it isn't to Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 02:38 AM

And once again you choose to ignore the FACTS put in front of you.
Israel is creating settlements on occupied land destined for Jews only - FACT
Many of these settlements are created by evicting ethnic groups who have occupied the land for centuries - FACT
In some cases the ethnic purity of those settlements is protected by law - FACT
Nowhere in the area has it been recorded that Arabs have attempted to prevent Jews from settling anywhere (despite your claims to the contrary - "Why must it be ethnically clean?") - FACT
Whatever the rights and wrongs of these settlements, the Israelis and Palestinians have embarked on peace talks which might, just might arrive at a conclusion where lives can be saved and a sort of coexistence might be arrived at - FACT
Israel has embarked on yet another round of settlements that will almost certainly scupper any chances of these peace attempts having any success, which is a clear indication that they have no interest in a peaceful settlement unless it allows them to continue to expand their territory - FACT
You and your Isriaphile buddies refuse to discuss or even acknowledge any of these FACTS - FACT
You will continue to do so for the foreseeable future as you have no interest whatever in the FACTS of what is happening at the present time.FACT
In addition, you have iced this revolting cake by attempting to equate legal immigrants arriving in Britain with illegal Israeli settlements which have often been achieved by eviction and brute force, are "ethnically pure" motivated and will drive any plans for peace deep into the ground, leading to more innocent deaths - which just about scrapes the bottom of an already all-but-bottomless barrel - FACT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 12:05 AM

should read 40+ years of immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 12:03 AM

The annual Palestinian population population growth is greater than the numbers arriving.
After 30+ years of settlements, the immigrants form just 13% of the population.
70% of those immigrants are settled close to the major cities.

Some of us think that immigration enriches a society.
I question the motives of those who want them all to go back where they came from.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 08:45 PM

"Settlements are made up of individual families."
Settlements are made for Jews - they are made on occupied land by evicting non-jews, and they often come with specific conditions that no non-Jew should be allow to buy or rent there.
Can we establish from the Brown Noses;
Does the expansion of settlements have no relevance to the present peace negotiations?
If it does, why are the Israelis pursuing a policy of increased expansionism in the middle of peace negotiations?
Can anybody explain why a policy of aggressive expansionism cannot possible have no effect on peace talks?
Given the constant blaming for the trouble in the area on the Palestinians, how does one square the behaviour of the Israelis with "seeking peace"?
Are we to assume that the only 'Peace' the Israelis are interested in is one that will allow them to continue expanding their settlements?
And last but far from least:
Why do you bunch of braindeads (Keith and Boo Boo) continue to refuse to address the present situation when even you pair must realise that to continue to do so is answer enough?
Have a good night D' y'all hear?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:57 PM

since 1967, Israel has pursued a policy of building settlements on the West Bank. These cover about 2% of the area of the West Bank.

Sure, Keith. But you're not counting the no-go zones, are you? And, in the words of Woody, when it comes to desirable land, the Israelis get the oil, the Palestinians get the grease. Happened in apartheid South Africa, happened in Ian Smith's Rhodesia. Exactly the same arguments as yours, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 02:24 PM

Settlements are made up of individual families.
just like settlers here, they like to live together in communities.

BBC.
"West Bank: Israeli settlements
Since 1967, Israel has pursued a policy of building settlements on the West Bank. These cover about 2% of the area of the West Bank.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_israel_palestinians/maps/html/settlements_checkpoints.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:49 AM

""It is legitimate for Israel to hold that new border.

It is discriminatory to say that only one ethnic group may live there.
Why not Jews? ""

It should not be ilegal for individuals to settle there and it certainly isn't a case of wanting to ethnically cleanse an existing population.....

HEY! Wait a minute!

It IS a case ot ethnic cleansing, BY THE SETTLERS, of nearly two million of the existing Palestian population, forcing them into only 39% of the West Bank while 367,000 Israelis live in the other 60%, and to keep the Palestinians at bay they buid a wall and defences including an exclusion zone on the Palestinian side enforced by armed soldiers with permission to shoot.

In fact they have better defences aginst the Palestinians than against Jordan, the reason why they claim the right to hold that border.

That's like England in 1940, faced with German aggression, fortifying the Scottish border. Mind you Hadrian got there first.

They also ethnically cleansed vast olive groves which were the only livelihood of the now very cleansed owners.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:22 AM

""The fact remains that the Palestinians living in the West Bank are faring much better under Israel's "occupation" than did the Jews living in the West Bank under the illegal occupation by Jordan.""

500,000 Israeli settlers in West Bank and E. Jerusalem occupy 61 percent of the land area (growing daily), while almost 2 million Palestinians are crammed into the remaining 39 percent.

Those Israelis certainly believe in having plenty of space to stretch, something denied to all Palestinians.

Bobad, given that the settlements are considered to be ilegal by the International Community, what is your justification for invoking irrelevant historical injustices?

Do you believe they justify any actions taken today,......by anybody?

The introduction of twenty new settlements while pretending to seek a peaceful solution, leads the concerned onlooker strongly to suspect that the Palestinians can forget about any hope of concessions, or even status quo,...in fact any hope at all!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:22 AM

So what happened to the lands on which the Jews lived in the West Bank after they were expelled from there by the Jordanians after their illegal occupation in 1948?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:12 AM

da-da -da-da - Black hole warning!!
Anwser the point and stop comparing legal Britain immigration with Israeli illegal expansionist lethal terrorism
Answer the "deliberate timing" point - that is what this is about - not peddling British anti-immigration racism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 07:27 AM

Are our settlers "expanding" their country of origin by coming here?
Are you expanding England by settling in Ireland Jim?

It is the fact that they are Jews that the Palestinians object to.
Do deny it again Jim.
It makes you look stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:46 AM

"Why should it be illegal for a Jewish family to settle in West Bank?"
Is it - I thought it was large settlements that were the problem, not individual families?
"Why will they not accept settlers of all races as we do?"
Don't they - do you have any evidence that they don't?
"Why must it be ethnically clean?"
Must it - where is your evidence that it has to be (unlike illegal settlements that are built for Jews and have stated that non-Jews are not welcome and in many cases, not allowed to live in them?
Why do you attempt to make this an issue of discrimination against Jews rather than one of expansionism?
And the most unfathomable (sic) question of them all;
Why won't your mob address the deliberately chosen timing for the expansion of these settlements and the effects that it will inevitably have on the peace talks?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:44 AM

Israel's side of the story.
"◾The provisions of the Geneva Convention regarding forced population transfer to occupied sovereign territory cannot be viewed as prohibiting the voluntary return of individuals to the towns and villages from which they, or their ancestors, had been ousted. Nor does it prohibit the movement of individuals to land which was not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state and which is not subject to private ownership. In this regard, Israeli settlements have been established only after an exhaustive investigation process, under the supervision of the Supreme Court of Israel, designed to ensure that no communities are established on private Arab land.

◾It should be emphasised that the movement of individuals to the territory is entirely voluntary, while the settlements themselves are not intended to displace Arab inhabitants, nor do they do so in practice."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/israeli%20settlements%20and%20international%20law.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:24 AM

Why should it be illegal for a Jewish family to settle in West Bank?
Why will they not accept settlers of all races as we do?
Why must it be ethnically clean?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 05:43 AM

And by the way - your attempts to compare legal immigration to Britain to the illegal, predatory, racially based (and often involving the eviction of legitimate occupants) settlement policy of the Israelis says all that needs to be said on this matter.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:29 AM

Keith
"Jim, you usually are in favour of welcoming settlers."
I most certainly am where their settlement is both legal and beneficial.
We have long become used to Israel's murderously predatory settlement policy, but the timing of this particular stunt is a clear indication that they have no interest whatever in peace - why should they - they've got superior fire-power and US support (or have they?) - (and probably God) on their side what more could a girl wish for?).
It is a deliberately timed action which will almost certainly guarantee that the negotiations are scuppered and the killing goes on and is a clear definition of intent which has, without a doubt, the full backing of you and your happy band of peacemakers who refuse to even respond to this possibility.
As you and your fellow Israeli regime arse-lickers have studiously avoided the fact that these "illegally identified" on "occupied land" settlements (none of which bear the remotest comparison to legal immigration - unless you happen to be of that particular mindset) have been deliberately accelerated at a time when peace talks are taking place, there seems little point in following you into yet another of your 'Black Holes'.
I'm sure you'll manage to have (yet again)the last word on this without actually addressing the facts of the matter - push on - I'll leave you to it!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:54 AM

Jim, you usually are in favour of welcoming settlers.
As you recently said, "Where will they live, perhaps in houses they have bought from money they earned themselves - maybe from building houses?"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:42 AM

And right on cue......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:22 AM

So Palestinians fared better under Israel than it did under Jordan - jeez - them Jordanians must have been real bad

Not real bad, just not so well administered.
Surveys quoted here support this and there is no movement of people from West Bank in to Jordan.

Jordan chose to attack Israel to seize its sovreign territory.
They invaded across the long and hard to defend land border, but were pushed back to the river.

It is legitimate for Israel to hold that new border.

It is discriminatory to say that only one ethnic group may live there.
Why not Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 03:00 PM

The Irish Times article says "The international Community considers all of the 121 West Bank Settlements, home to 350,000 Israelis, to be illegal under international law."
The opposition party leader says, The decision to include settlements whose legal status are clouded by doubt, to the map of national properties, is a targeted effort to prevent the peace efforts and will encourage settlers to continue to violate the law".
Wouldn't the first step in defending these actions be to show us how neither is the case?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 02:26 PM

One wonders why, if Israel is going to make it ten times harder to come to an agreement in order to expand its territory it should go through the motions in the first place
After the last incursion the Zionists demanded that it was time to "cut off electricity and water and drive the Palestinians into the desert".
It would be extremely interesting to see how the human rights courts would react to such a suggestion.
The last time Israel embarked on a major policy of expansion of settlements it was as an act of revenge for Palestine having been partially accepted into the United Nations
So Palestinians fared better under Israel than it did under Jordan - jeez - them Jordanians must have been real bad bastards!!
Tsk, tsk Boo Boo, what would Yogi say?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 12:14 PM

Well, Bobad,

So Mr. Bard wishes us to pretend that the settlements don't exist? Or is it YOU that wishes us to pretend they dont exist, with Mr. bard as a backup?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 11:59 AM

Myths and Facts
Mitchell G. Bard

MYTH

"Israel "occupies" the West Bank."

FACT

In politics words matter and, unfortunately, the misuse of words applying to the Arab-Israeli conflict has shaped perceptions to Israel's disadvantage. As in the case of the term "West Bank," the word "occupation" has been hijacked by those who wish to paint Israel in the harshest possible light. It also gives apologists a way to try to explain away terrorism as "resistance to occupation," as if the women and children killed by homicide bombers in buses, pizzerias, and shopping malls were responsible for the plight of the Arabs. Given the negative connotation of an "occupier," it is not surprising that Arab spokespersons use the word or some variation as many times as possible when interviewed by the press. The more accurate description of the territories in Judea and Samaria is "disputed" territories.

In fact, most other disputed territories around the world are not referred to as being occupied by the party that controls them. This is true, for example, of the hotly contested region of Kashmir.

Occupation typically refers to foreign control of an area that was under the previous sovereignty of another state. In the case of the West Bank, there was no legitimate sovereign because the territory had been illegally occupied by Jordan from 1948 to 1967. Though the Palestinians never demanded an end to Jordanian occupation and the creation of a Palestinian state, only two countries — Britain and Pakistan — recognized Jordan's action.

It is also important to distinguish the acquisition of territory in a war of conquest as opposed to a war of self-defense. A nation that attacks another and then retains the territory it conquers is an occupier. One that gains territory in the course of defending itself is not in the same category. And this is the situation with Israel, which specifically told King Hussein that if Jordan stayed out of the 1967 war, Israel would not fight against him. Hussein ignored the warning and attacked Israel in 1967. While fending off the assault and driving out the invading Jordanian troops, Israel came to control the West Bank. Had Hussein heeded the warning, the Palestinians of the West Bank would in all likelihood be happily living as Jordanian citizens.

By rejecting Arab demands that Israel be required to withdraw from all the territories won in 1967, the UN Security Council in Resolution 242 acknowledged that Israel was entitled to claim at least part of these lands for new defensible borders.

Since Oslo, the case for tagging Israel as an occupying power has been further weakened by the fact that Israel transferred virtually all civilian authority to the Palestinian Authority. Israel retained the power to control its own external security and that of its citizens, but 98 percent of the Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza came under the PA's authority. The extent to which Israel has been forced to maintain a military presence in the territories has been governed by the Palestinians' unwillingness to end violence against Israel. The best way to end the dispute over the territories is for the Palestinians to fulfill their obligations under the Oslo agreements and stop the terror and negotiate a final settlement.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 11:25 AM

So what, Bobad - it's still an occupation (no quotes). Are your usual excuses presumed to make it all OK? Or are the Palestinians supposed to be grateful for being subjugated?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 11:03 AM

S' what - if it were only true - and there is no evidence that this is the case.?
Human rights abuses don't become any less because other people do them.
A war criminal is a war criminal is a war criminal - and so ad infinitum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 10:36 AM

The fact remains that the Palestinians living in the West Bank are faring much better under Israel's "occupation" than did the Jews living in the West Bank under the illegal occupation by Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 10:19 AM

The bottom line is that Israel will not make any concessions. We've been here on the end of the hoodwink so many times. They'll talk all right, in full knowledge that pointless talking, for as long as possible, allows life to go nicely on in Israel with less danger of rocket attacks. Even Israel knows that jaw-jaw is better than war-war, even when the jaw-jaw is fraudulent. Israel does not have to make any concessions, or stop building settlements, because whatever they do the US will do nothing except express mild concern. So why should they enter genuine talks? No need. Not until the day the US tells Israel that aggression against neighbours and settlement expansion will result in a withdrawal of military aid.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 09:43 AM

More settlements? Can't be. Bobad will explain to you thet Israel never does anything wrong or to provoke them hellish Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 08:29 AM

"Small hope for Israel/Palestine"
And getting smaller by the minute - or should that be 'settlement'?
Jim Carroll

ISRAEL MOVES TO BOOST SETTLEMENTS BEFORE PEACE TALKS
MARK WEISS in Jerusalem

Despite the resumption of peace talks with the Palestini¬ans, Israel has added a num¬ber of outlying West Bank set¬tlements to a list of communi¬ties entitled to special govern¬ment funding.
Ninety settlements were included on the new national priority areas map approved by the government yesterday, entitling the communities to government grants, infrastructure investment, tax breaks and other benefits.
Four dovish ministers ab¬stained in the vote, including environment minister Amir Peretz, who criticised the deci¬sion because it "contradicts this period of efforts to ad¬vance peace".
Among the new settlements eligible for special financial assistance are the! isolated communities of Rehalim, Bruchin and Sansana, considered illegal outposts until the government changed their status to fully fledged settlements.
Illegal settlements
The international community considers all of the 121 West Bank Jewish settlements, home to 350,000 Israelis, ille¬gal under international law.
The future of the settlements will be a core issue- when Israeli and Palestinian negotiators resume peace talks in Israel next week. Israel wants to keep the majority of settlers by annexing the main settlement blocs to Israel and handing over parts of Israeli territory to the Palestinians in a land-swap deal.
The new map includes 600 towns and regions as priority areas. The original aim of the national priority list was to di¬vert funds to poorer communi¬ties, particularly development towns on Israel's periphery. However, the settler lobby has added West Bank Jewish com¬munities to the list, citing "na¬tional security" criteria.
Justice minister Tzipi Livni, who heads Israel's team at the peace talks, abstained in the cabinet vote, saying the nation¬al priority map was intended to advance the national inter¬est, not political interests. "It's inappropriate to take funds in¬tended to tackle socioeconom¬ic gaps and use them to sup¬port outlying settlements in dangerous areas," she said.
Zehava Galon, leader of left-wing opposition party Meretz, called on the Knesset's legal adviser to investigate the government decision.
"The decision to include set¬tlements, whose legal status are clouded by doubt, to the map of national priorities, is a targeted effort to prevent the peace efforts and will encourage the settlers to continue to violate the law..."
Meanwhile, negotiators from both sides confirmed that Israel will release 26 veter¬an Palestinian prisoners next week. The release is the first batch of four, staggered at the request of Israel.
It is believed that the free¬ing of long-term detainees, nearly all arrested before the signing of the Oslo peace ac¬cords 20 years ago, will boost the standing of President Mahmoud Abbas on the Pales¬tinian street.
The Palestinians insist all prisoners should be freed if a comprehensive deal is reached.

Irish Times 5.8.13

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 10:01 AM

The other elephant in the room is the question of settlements...

But...

...if anyone can get this done, it's Kerry...

I'd give it a 30% chance of success but that beats 0%...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 09:29 AM

Hamas is becoming increasingly marginalized. They have lost much of their funding and military arrangements with their allies due to their alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and their support of the uprising in Syria. They will, of course, object to any attempts at a peace agreement with Israel but whether they resort to their usual tactic of trying to scuttle the talks by launching attacks into Israel remains to be seen. Their financial difficulties, internal squabbling and growing isolation leaves them vulnerable to local resentment which has been building for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 09:32 AM

It is great to see some hope of agreement, and moreover hope that might be practical of achievement.

It would seem that at last common sense has erupted on two sides of the divide.

BUT, and it's a big one,.....that elephant in the corner of the room is yet to be considered.

HAMAS is still the de facto government of Gaza, and at some point their agreement will have to be sought.

They will be a much harder nut to crack, and Abbas cannot realistically promise an end to the violence until they are on board.

Achieving a three cornered agreement is likely to mean greater concessions from Israel than they would be prepared to make.

The most positive part of this development is that it seems to be Israel making the first goodwill move by releasing those Palestinian prisoners without requiring a quid pro quo.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 08:36 AM

A new round of peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians have begun and are scheduled to continue for nine months. This article in the New Republic looks at the five core issues of the conflict: the borders separating Israel and a Palestinian state; the fate of Jewish settlements in the West Bank; security arrangements between the two states; the question of Palestinian refugees displaced in Israel's 1948 War of Independence (and their millions of descendants); and the status of Jerusalem.

Here's What John Kerry's Peace Settlement Will Look Like (Probably)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:55 PM

Like I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:43 PM

""This is a thread about hope - go spread your hate elsewhere.""

If this is a thread about hope, what the hell are YOU doing here.

You just advocate more of the samewith your one sided views.

Real hope will come from those ordinary Israelis who are speaking out against the extremism of their government.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:58 AM

This is a thread about hope - go spread your hate elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:47 AM

""Only a hateful bastard like you can try and use this story to once again demonstrate your hate of Israel and the Jewish people.""

And only a bigoted fool Israeli government apologist would be stupid enough to call me a Jew hater, based on a post in which I specifically separated ordinary Jews from the Zionist government which is ruining what could be a thriving nation.

And only a bigoted Israeli government apologist would consider using the grief of bereaved parents to score political points in a thread about the relationship between that government ant the palestinians it is oppressing.

The cynical lack of sensitivity in that is appalling.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 09:03 AM

There might be more kindness in return were it not for fear of reprisal.
It is not healthy to be seen helping a Jew in many places.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 08:57 AM

Easy, bobad, easy - you're spewing spittle as you type.