The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 05:57 PM

". . . those that drink more than a beer or three are stupid and perverted. . . ."

Anyone who drinks as much as you apparently do IS stupid. And I say that, not because I'm some sort of temperance freak. I enjoy a few beers now and then. In fact, my old friend Bob Nelson was here this afternoon, and we swapped some songs and had a couple of beers together. But we didn't get positively stinkin' as you seem to do on a regular basis.

Like I keep saying, Conrad, it's obvious to everyone here that you have a drinking problem, which, equally obviously, is impairing any chance of clear and rational thought on your part.

". . . keep them out."

Damn straight!! Anyone who shouts out requests to a singer when he or she is in the middle of a song, or who, unbidden, pulls out a tin whistle and tries to play along—another tune in another key—should be either blocked from getting in or dragged to the door and kicked out. Because they obviously have no acquaintance with civilized behavior and are ruining the whole "folk experience" for everyone else.

It's plain to all why you are so bent out of shape about the folk scene in the Baltimore area, and are projecting that to the rest of the world. Through your own behavior, you have made yourself persona non grata in your local folk venues and are just generally pissed off at everyone—except the real cause of your troubles.

YOU!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 05:33 PM

"crafters, food sellers, production companines and pro musicians making money. The folk industry is just that."

Give me strength ... Conrad, how many times does everyone on this thread have to tell you that the folk "industry" - whatever that may be - does not actually make money. Festivals here almost invariably do not make profits, folk club organisers and promoters generally do not either unless they're extremely lucky (I can't think of one that does - but I do know quite a few who plough their own money into the clubs to keep them going, and expecting no return from it except for the pleasure of being to get the music out there). There are very very few pro musicians in the UK who can make a living out of the work that they get. Most have one or more day jobs to allow them to obtain the basics of life; those that do subsist entirely on their earnings from folk have to work themselves to the bone in order to do so; others live perilously close to the edge - no assets, no pension scheme to speak of, resulting in calamity if anything in their life such as health gives way.

It is not a society of fat cats living off the backs of others - as virtually everyone on this thread has told you, some politely, others more forcibly.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 04:57 PM

In all probability they would pay their stewards.

No

For several years I worked for a major festival running a stage as a volunteer. The person heading the production company made a grand profit. He always pointed out the festival was founded upon volunteerism. Tell ya what. Why not give volunteers a share of the profit and allow them to donate it back.

Brainwashed folkie volunteers. Yes you are important for crafters, food sellers, production companines and pro musicians making money. The folk industry is just that. Hey why dont you go down to Mcdonalds and thell them you will volunteer -same thing.

If a festival opens its books I I see no profit and donation of volunteer hours by everyone involved fine. Find a large folk festival that will let you know what they make.

The oral tradition is not a living thing to live or die it is a proces. It can happen now. Whats stopping it.- glad you asked- commercialism.

Yes people saw a drug and they took it. Nothing but addiction. But when the free folk world comes to be it can return.

Exactly don you dont expand the venue you keep people out with high prices so it doesnt get too full! Wonderful....keep it small don thats it...you could build a second venue a third or a fourth but no you raise prices and keep them out.

Don - having money to burn is not tied to knowledge of music. I was in DC on H street NE at a german place. The music was absolute crap. Polish infact and poorly done. The place was filled with people with so much money that they could drink fast and hard through pints at $10.00 each. I see Don having money makes you smart. And those without stupid. And those that drink more than a beer or three are stupid and perverted.....So keep them out. Keep it small.

Non profit means nothing it just means that the business entity cant make a profit not those they hire. I know of a local non profit that payed musicians several times over their usual rate just because they could. The non profits still have the food chain.

Big festivals happen because they can get away with it and they make money for lots of people, beause they are not having to be concerned with the preservation of the music just the preservation of income.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 02:14 PM

"The huge folk festivals would not be happening if people did not profit. If you can not see it the fact is just hidden."

The majority of UK folk festivals, even the big ones, are run as not-for-profit organisations. After all the expenses are paid, whatever is left over (if there is anything) is ploughed back into the following year's festival. Many festival directors don't draw any kind of salary; some festivals pay some staff a part time wage. I can only think of one person working for a UK folk festival as a director who draws a full time wage, and he is actually paid by the local council. Yet many people work 30, 40, 50 hours a week on their festivals, as a "leisure" activity, outside of their actual jobs.

The festivals continue to happen because people are passionate about folk and passionate about the festivals, not because they are getting rich.

There is nothing "hidden" here - an organisation's legal status as a not-for-profit means that it has to be run this way. So you are, once again, talking rubbish, Conrad.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 01:40 PM

"You can perhaps find enough wealthy people to sell out a concert. . . ."

Not unless the performer or performers are good enough so that people will want to pay to hear them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 01:36 PM

"So howard- providing people with what they want is good always? Like drugs maybe. I think not."

But enough free "bier" for YOU can get barfing, falling down drunk is just fine, right?

####

If an event is Sold Out, that means the venue is filled to capacity. Conrad, where are you going to put all those other people, the ones who want in, but can't afford the price of admission? When there are people who can afford it who can't get in because it's filled to capacity? Tell, me, Conrad. Where are you going to put all these people?

There ARE FREE festivals!! All over the place!

Too bad you seem to live in a backward, depressed area.

". . . fat cat organizers and pro singers. . . ."

Along with the unicorn, the wyvern, the hippocamelocerous, and other mythical beasts.

A volunteer is someone who offers his or her services for some endeavor. They are not slaves. No one is holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to do what they do. If they feel they are being "exploited," they can always unvolunteer.

When I was small, my mother would sometimes say to me, "Don't use a word if you don't understand what it means."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:54 AM

The "oral tradition" is all but dead. The "folk" gave it up of their own free will and turned to professional entertainment, the wireless, gramophone, TV etc. Just look at Jim Carroll's posts elsewhere about the decline of the travellers' singing traditions if you don't believe me.

Where it does exist, it has nothing to do with the folk movement. We may look on as observers, but we are not part of it. Nothing we do on the "folk scene" has any bearing on the few pockets of tradition that remain. At most, we may take up a few performers and offer them a wider platform for their music, but that's bringing them into our world, not the other way around. People who learn and sing songs via the folk scene aren't continuing the tradition - that's just romantic fancy.

It is simply not true that people are kept out of folk music by cost. For those who cannot afford a festival ticket, there is the option of volunteering - but you would stop that. However festivals aren't the only ways of discovering and enjoying folk music. I cannot believe that there is anyone who is not living in a cardboard box who cannot afford to go to one of the many free sessions and events, for the price of a beer or coffee which is all it costs to go into the bar.

Perhaps Baltimore doesn't have any free sessions - if so, it is unusual. The solution, which has been pointed out to you many times, is to organise them yourself - after all, as you keep telling us, it's easy.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:53 AM

You can perhaps find enough wealthy people to sell out a concert but what about those who are not wealthy- you just shut them out with high prices- we need free festivals most of them not just some.

Conrad, why won't you be told? It's not as if anyone is trying to fool you or pull the wool over your eyes. It's not only professionals who are trying to get you to see you are wrong, but also amateurs like myself. If the costs were prohibitive or if we were denied the opportunities to take part in folk music as you claim, surely we would be supporting you, but we are not.

Folk music concerts are not generally expensive. If you want expensive concerts try classical music or rock/pop concerts - and classical music concerts, in the UK at least, are often subsidised.

Many, if not most, folk festivals in the UK are held around the town in which they are based so you can pick and choose. You can spend the whole week at Whitby folk festival and not pay for any of the events you attend. My interest is in the participative events so I go to sessions and singarounds (free) and to workshops for which there is a modest entrance fee.

As for fat cat organisers, as far as I am aware, Whitby folk week is run by a group of enthusiasts and does not make a huge amount of money. In fact, I was told they made a loss in 2009. They are looking for sponsorship just now to help them with the costs as you can see if you look here

Volunteer slaves? Bollocks!! Most people I know who volunteer to steward etc. at folk festivals do it because they enjoy it and as a thank you, they get in free. If they are stewarding a concert or workshop, they get to go into the event free. They can also get into events they are not stewarding at for nothing. In effect, volunteer stewards get paid in kind.

If festivals were making huge profits, as you claim, in all probability they would pay their stewards.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:17 AM

WE NEED NAMES

You ramble on and on but who are these "jetset pros" and "unscrupulous organizers" or "rich folkies".................Come on dickless......some names needed........Or how about just admitting you don't know jackshit?


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:17 AM

So howard- providing people with what they want is good always? Like drugs maybe. I think not.

The It works for me agrument.

So it may work now but what effect is it having on the brain of folk music that is the oral tradition? Is it reaching poor people. It is not.

The huge folk festivals would not be happening if people did not profit. If you can not see it the fact is just hidden. They may loose on a bad weather year but they make up for it soon enough. That money for overpriced music must go somewhere. All the while people with naught cant get in.

Even worse "volunteer" as slaves of the fat cat so you can get in. Lovely. Sort of like the expresion above of hey if you cant pay for a beer get a better job. All the while almost everyone involved in the festival generally gets paid. Either pay them all or ask that they all volunteer. That is what people who loved the music and wanted it to expand would do.

Again "quite often" is not all the time or even most of the time.

Look up status quo

Folk music pro world is not doing folk they are simply mimicking rock just another commercial brick in the wall keeping the people from their own music.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 09:58 AM

>>>Festivals are run on the backs of volunteers why dont the volunteers run on the backs of the fat cat organizers and pro singers

I think that Howard may have got in before I managed to post my original intended response ... but the volunteers at festivals in UK normally get "paid" with free tickets to the festival and quite often camping tickets in return for a few hours of work each day. If you are talking a week long festival, that isn't a small consideration - for Sidmouth, for example, you're talking of a face value of over £200 (as far as I can recall). True volunteers are quite often the organisers of the event, who may very well stand to lose money (quite a few festivals in the last few years have gone bust).

>>If some can volunteer what they have why dont they all volunteer what they have- only a few days a year.

A rather nonsensical statement. Quite a few paid musicians effectively do volunteer by working for minimal fees. I get paid for gigs occasionally ... a sort of semi-, semi- pro in my estimation. My musical partner and I undertook one this year for what was effectively short of the overall price of two nights' B&B - no consideration of travel costs, or an effective fee for the performance. The reason for going, apart from the opportunity to perform (and on this occasion, I think you could say that what we achieved was both entertainment -I hope- and education, since we were using the fruits of some of my research) was to meet up with fellow musicians and enthusiasts and have an enjoyable weekend of traditional music.

>> I think it is wonderful that those in the industry do not agree. Exactly as expected. They just want to preserve the status quo and their market share.

Point one - many of those responding to this thread are professional or semi-professional musicians and performers who have been irritated by your unintelligent statements... but a very great many are not.
As to "preserving status quo" ... there is no such thing as status in the folk world in my humble experience. It's a foreign concept ... now if you were talking pop or rock, I could understand it ... but you ain't!

Sorry Conrad, but you are still way off beam. (And still not answering most of the questions which people have put to you, I see)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:04 AM

So who are the "fat cat organisers"? Most professionals in the folk world are struggling to make even a basic living. But supposing someone is getting rich from running folk festivals, why should that matter? If they're successful, it's because they provide the audiences with what they want - that's called a win-win situation. If someone is providing something I want at a price I find agreeable, why should I care how much he's making from it? If I don't like the product or the price, I don't have to buy it. If you don't like big concert festivals and think they're too expensive, you don't have to go, but why stop people who do like them and are prepared to pay for them?

You seem to be very concerned about what you see as exploitation of volunteers. But the volunteers don't see it that way, or they wouldn't be queuing up to offer their services. Most of them are in fact being "paid" in tickets, which they find perfectly acceptable. Who are you to tell them they shouldn't do this?

In fact this is a clear example of why your theories are not only wrong but contradictory. I don't believe for a moment that cost is a genuine barrier, as there are many other venues where people can see the very best in folk music for much less, or even for free. However if they can't afford a weekend festival ticket, they could volunteer to be stewards and get in for free - but you would stop them doing that.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:50 AM

You can perhaps find enough wealthy people to sell out a concert but what about those who are not wealthy- you just shut them out with high prices- we need free festivals most of them not just some.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:58 AM

Festivals are run on the backs of volunteers why dont the volunteers run on the backs of the fat cat organizers and pro singers

Please name names. Go ahead ..... Let's hear some details.


If some can volunteer what they have why dont they all volunteer what they have- only a few days a year.

Complete gibberish!!!!

Just because an event is sold out does not mean that it was affordable to everyone

LMAO.....Say WHAT??? I suppose it sold out thanks to it being unaffordable. Statements like that one keep most of us coming back strictly for the entertainment value!

I think it is wonderful that those in the industry do not agree. Exactly as expected. They just want to preserve the status quo and their market share.

More gibberish!!! Makes no sense whatsoever but it IS entertaining.......

Your personal attacks are funny! Way off the mark but funny.

Yeah they are funny but you seem to be protesting more and more that I/we are wrong so I think we are probably very close to the mark.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:40 AM

Festivals are run on the backs of volunteers why dont the volunteers run on the backs of the fat cat organizers and pro singers

If some can volunteer what they have why dont they all volunteer what they have- only a few days a year.

Just because an event is sold out does not mean that it was affordable to everyone

I think it is wonderful that those in the industry do not agree. Exactly as expected. They just want to preserve the status quo and their market share.

Your personal attacks are funny! Way off the mark but funny.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:14 AM

Actually, Conrad, most people can afford it - the festival was a sell-out. For those who couldn't, or wouldn't pay, there were plenty of free sessions in pubs around the town, facilitated by the existence of the festival.

You still haven't explained how such a festival could be put on for free. Except of course, you don't want festivals like this to exist - you want small festivals which would of necessity be limited to local performers, because why would dozens of musicians travel hundreds of miles at their own expense to work very hard for no recompense? What I cannot understand, and which you have made no attempt to explain, is why you think that would be an improvement?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 02:42 AM

Conrad.
Having read through the 950 posts on this thread again (WHY?????)
I haven't found one single solitary person who agrees with your slightly deranged view of the folk scene. (US/UK wherever)
You seem to having a problem in the town where you live. That's a shame.
For the rest of us. We are all doing really well thank you.
None of us are rich, we just get by, sharing music and song with friends.
If we get lucky, we might get paid occasionally, sell the odd CD, whatever.
What we don't need is to be told how to behave by a drunk.
Not only a drunk, but a drunk with no talent. Yes I've seen your Horn Hat clip. Where was the tune?????
An ice cream on your head, a piece of tubing, Utter rubbish.
Come on Conrad. Admit defeat.
This thread is going nowhere. Nobody agrees with you, and they never will.
You are so wrong. Why don't you get it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 11:58 PM

"What I find a bit hard to fathom is that Conrad's ideal model of a "folk experience" and the way the whole realm of folk music should operate is an extreme form of Socialism."

There's really no point in trying to fathom incoherence.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 10:24 PM

Yeah, Spaw, sometimes I'm afraid McGuinn is going to throw his neck out. Ouch! I don't plan on following his methods too closely. I've listened to some of the stuff he's put on the Folk Den and it strikes me as "over-produced." All those overdubs!

He does have his little mannerisms.

Just one voice and one guitar is what I plan on.

####

What I find a bit hard to fathom is that Conrad's ideal model of a "folk experience" and the way the whole realm of folk music should operate is an extreme form of Socialism.

And yet, early on, he said he was a conservative Republican.

These folks think greed is good. The profit motive is to be lauded. Getting rich is to be striven for and to be admired when it is achieved. This, along with a general belief in Social Darwinism, which says "let the poor perish. Remove them from the gene pool and it will improve the species!"

Methinks Conrad wants it both ways. Not unlike the banks, finance companies, car manufacturers, and miscellaneous other fat-cats. Capitalism for everyone else. Socialism for them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 09:22 PM

Howard dont defend making money on something that needs to be free and accessible to the least of us. Sorry you make my case its ok to be exclusive! Glad you can afford it most can not and you advocate locking them out Why?>

Nope never been expelled from any venue. I have brought countless numbers of students into folk venues. The personal attacks do not do much for your argument but show you are in flight! Keep it up!

Ok stringsinger just stop all the money grubbing and have free festivals ok easy. Stop collecting money everyone can volunteer works fine.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 08:27 PM

But Don, if you use the Roger McGuinn method though you'll need to develop the head-bobbing routine for it to come out right..................

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 05:32 PM

Stringsinger knows whereof he speaks.

I believe that above (way above) I may have mentioned an acquaintance of mine named Bob Weymouth, who sang in a downtown night club. He sang and played the guitar and he sang a few folk songs, but most of what he sang were popular songs (Frank Sinatra, Perry Como, Andy Williams), Broadway show tunes, a bit of Country and Western. . . .

He told me that the club owner was constantly being bugged by people from ASCAP and BMI (or who claimed to be from these agencies) demanding that the club keep track of what songs Bob was singing and pay royalties on the material. Bob knew I sang folk songs in a coffeehouse, and he asked me if these same people pestered the owner of the coffeehouse.

Not to my knowledge, I responded. It would not have done them much good anyway. Since most of us sang strictly traditional songs, there were no copyrights and no royalties to collect. And if we did inadvertently sing a song that was copyrighted (and we did get occasional requests for songs like "They Call the Wind Mariah"—Broadway musical—or "Try to Remember"—off-Broadway musical), all we needed to do was simply drop the songs from our performing repertoires, and if someone asked for them, politely decline.

I think the commercial music industry had a wall-eyed fit during the "Great Folk Scare" in the Sixties because of the preponderance of non-copyrighted material that people were singing and recording, and that many radio stations were playing. No royalties to collect!

One little gimmick they tried was to publish song books with somewhat rearranged lyrics and tunes of traditional songs. You can't copyright a traditional song, but you can copyright your arrangement of a traditional song. To do so, you need to change at least twelve measures within the song. So a lot of these newly published song books contained traditional songs, but they had all been "dinked with," at least twelve measures worth, and often, not for the better!

These books were easy enough to spot, because they had a copyright notice at the bottom of practically every page.

If you liked a song that you found in one of these song books, it was easy enough to avoid falling into the trap. Just look up the traditional version, and sing that. Easy enough to do, what with all the books available by genuine song collectors (Lomax, Sangburg, et al.)—which is where the compilers of these bogus books got them.

At one time, some nineteen different music publishing companies claimed a copyright on "Greensleeves!!"

I would love to see that one come to court!!

And these days, with computer technology, plus a relatively modest investment in a couple of good condenser microphones and a computer interface along with a little know-how, one can turn out studio quality recordings in one's own home studio. No more studio fees, which can run $50, $100, $150 an hour. Do it in your own time, no pressure! If you want to do a retake on a song, go ahead. You don't have to worry about racking up a bigger studio bill by taking the time to do it right.

If you turn out a good collection of songs and want to put it on the market, it might cost a buck or two to take the master (CD-R) that you burn on your computer to some outfit to do a glass master and replicate (replicate, NOT duplicate) the your CD-R in as many copies as you want, and package them, complete with jewel cases and inserts. Market it yourself on the internet and by-pass the commercial recording industry entirely.

A good way to get a clue as to how to go about it would be to take a look at THIS.

LOTS of people are doing this, even as we speak.

Bon appetite!!

Don Firth

P. S. I've got the equipment, now all I have to do is get my arse in gear, decide what songs I want to record, and DO it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:05 PM

Conrad, you are looking at folk music as a performance-based entity that is part of the larger "show business". That's only a small part. The larger view is that folk music is already free because there is no copyright restriction on public domain songs.

If there is any claimant for authorship on a traditional folk song, that needs to be taken up in court.

A free festival, however, must be based on an anti-commercial business model. This is what socialists have been advocating for years. You privatize a folk festival, you get a Capitalist
business model.

The problem of the music industry today is that they haven't figured out how to completely bleed the consumer dry of their money. Most of the money doesn't go to the artist in publishing houses and recording companies. It goes to the lawyers, managers, agents and bookers. Music business today is another corporate boondoggle. Copyright laws have to be changed and updated to accommodate today's music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 03:27 PM

Just checked Conrad's little sortie onto YouTube re "horned hats."

You know, a couple of years ago I had a bunch of impacted wax in one ear. My ENT doctor went after it with something that looked like a corkscrew. I must say, that was a bit more enjoyable than listening to Conrad's "horned hat" solo.

Sorry to break this to you, Conrad, but Wynton Marsalis, you are not!

But I think that gives a good index of your musical abilities.

(Ever hear a Hippopotamus fart?   Underwater?)

####

Conrad has been told time and again, ad infintum, by people from a wide variety of places around the world, that what he complains about simply is not the case elsewhere. Yet he keeps on beating the same hum-drum.

The simple facts are that he has been frog-walked out of the folk venues in his area for behaving like a drunken boor.

And he has a messiah complex. He is immune to facts and will never change his mind.

A self-styled "visionary artist" with a severe case if cataracts, And a drinking problem.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 01:30 PM

"Work at it"

Sorry Jack, but in the republic of Conradia, elitist intelligentsia such as people who *practice* singing and playing folk music, will be rounded up and shot for the cultural crime of not being totally shit and thereby oppressing the 'ordinary folk'.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 12:44 PM

If you're a good enough performer, it's isn't a problem also being an alcoholic and a skinflint. Work at it and you'll get bought enough booze to finish the evening on the floor looking for handholds.

If that's what you want. I turn down most of the drinks I'm offered.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 10:20 AM

Conrad, the move from folk clubs to festivals is not because of some conspiracy by professional musicians, but because that's what the audiences, especially the younger ones, want. Yes, the folk clubs have been declining for many years, but festivals are thriving. Are they expensive? You'll think so, since you expect to get things for free. For most people, they represent fantastic value for money.

For example, take Shrewsbury Folk Festival. If you listen to the BBC I'm sure you'll have heard of it. A fantastic lineup of guests, most of whom play traditional music, not modern singer-songwriters (although there's room for them too). There is a full programme of workshops, and the festival is also involved in an educational project taking folk artists into local schools. What the programme doesn't show is all the informal song and tune sessions which take place, involving ordinary festival-goers and townspeople, as well as some of the booked performers. People participate, they sing, play and learn, they don't just sit there in front of a stage all weekend.

The cost? £92 (about $145) for four days of music and other activities, running from 10 am to 11:30 pm (those are the official hours, but in reality people will start playing earlier and finish later). That's less than £2.50 (less than $4) an hour, for some of the best musicians in the country. Only you would think that's expensive.

Do you really think a festival like that could be put on for free?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 09:39 AM

I'm back put my eyes back in - set the filters - ... and found

http://mysite.verizon.net/cbladey/nresume.html#Visionary%20Artist/%20Artcar%20Artist

I duuno which I prefer ..., but then I'm a guy and supposedly we use the whole chicken, not just a feather ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 09:29 AM

Ooooo bad thing ....... do not Google "horn hat workshop" unless you shut your eyes...

:-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 09:07 AM

The more you protest the more obvious it becomes that you have been quite rightly ostracized around BaltWash for being a gross, obnoxious, boorish, broke-dick, jadrool. Skivee has posted a few tales and from your own comments they are obviously true. Your rantings are simply rationalizations which help you to cover the truth of your own failures.

Additionally, anyone who posts here for any length of time knows a lot of the DC/Baltimore 'Catters both amateur and professional and find it hard to match your descriptions to the people we know. For instance I can't quite see Bill Day dressed in finery and looking down his nose at anyone at he eats a carrot. And Seamus Kennedy doesn't seem to match your version of the selfish, jet set professional either although he does fly occasionally.

On the other hand we have found you to be a non bathing, unkempt, and uncouth wacko who confuses genius with nutso behavior and sees drunken ravings as a "muse."    What you do best is to justify your own failure and crudeness with crap-ass theories and "paradigms" having no basis in reality.

Here's an idea for you........Go out and buy a few gallons of Thunderbird and some cheap "bier" then round up a couple dozen homeless drunks. Bring them all to your house and while you are all merrily shitting in the hedges and weeds (judging from the pics of your house, I doubt your neighbors will notice anything different than usual), pass out the song sheets and you can all do a few verses of "Lord Randall."


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 08:57 AM

What hat video?

Horn hats are great- look at my horn hat workshop page- It is a good way to get elementary school students to take an interest in brass instrument instruction. I think 100 percent of the parents asked for the names of instructors after the event in columbus a few years back.

Horn hats are great by the way. They are simply valveless horns and play wonderfully while walking around.

I have noted above that I do follow BBC local folk radio via the internet- the absolute best source other than going there. On these programs visiting guests have frequently touched on the following.

1. Decline of the folk club and rise of the expensive commercial festival.

2. Commercial festivals are too expensive commercial and have moved way far away from trad folk in favor of modern and singer songwriter- that is ordinary folk are being edged out and commercial names only get top billing.

3. We need more festivals that ordinary people can perform at.

4. The prices are getting too high

5. The legacy of folk music is not being passed on adequately

One thing I have noticed is that despite the decline I find there seem to be many local venues and folk clubs still and that their prices are very reasonable according to us standards.

Perhaps it is that there are relativly few folkies in the USA that it is a sort of trendy insider group. That will continue when there are so many discouragements out there- have more than one beer and your out, dont have a steampunk wardrobe who needs ya, cant pay tripple market prices for beer and food....get a job, not a pro...get lost.

Folk music has always done best when it included ordinary people.

This varries in the USA I guess from rural to urban areas. I live on the East coast in Urban sprawl land and everything here is more expensive. But trouble is that folkies dont seem to understand that expense is the problem and barrier to growth. However, the select group likes it that way......

Nothing wrong with drinking one beer or none problem is that folk music has never been tea totaling except for maybe in religious settings just read the lyrics fact is that there is a growing intolerance for anyone who drinks anything alcoholic and there is a greater intolerance for those who have a higher level of moderation than most. My point is that folk music is for everyone- no intolerance. I think that is simple enough.

Folkies I have met and I can say most of them have a very strong political adgenda, they want everyone to eat and drink right according to them and they even want you to wear good clothes and you absolutely must avoid the cheap corner bar. Heaven forbid singing to the riff raff.

We need to be open to everyone. If there is anything that discourages it well remove it.

Why not!

I commend those who have worked toward these ends but round here its not happening.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 08:55 AM

Spleen, Conrad has already made it clear that his priorities are beer and food, not music. He's only interested in music if he can get it for nothing.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 06:56 AM

The other trouble is yes you cant awaken the muse at a one pint per person semi prohibitionist setting

I can! I don't need gallons of booze to enjoy music nor do most people I know. In fact, turning up at a venue where everyone is staggering around legless would be a significant barrier to me ever attending that venue again. Given that many of these old songs were originally as likely, if not more so, to be sung around the family home as the pub, why do you insist on this largely false association between folksong and getting leathered?

And since when have bars been "semi-prohibitionist"? If the concert's one you want to attend, but the beer is expensive, drink less beer!. If you're primarily there for the music, why is that such a problem? I can understand it might be a problem for anyone with an alcohol addiction, but I'm not convinced the live music scene should be turned upside down in order to make meeting the needs of this minority of drinkers paramount...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 06:53 AM

"With so many barriers how can anything expand."
Sorry to bring bad news Conrad. Music has been expanding for decades. Maybe not where you live. Have you thought about moving?
It's all just tickety boo this side of the pond.
Not a barrier in sight. Pro musos and amateurs joining hands and sharing songs and tunes. Some earning a (meagre) living, most, just enjoy themselves.
You must live in a cultural wasteland.
The rest of us live in vibrant musical societies.
Just deal with your problem. Because it is YOUR problem. Nobody else has a problem at all!
Just watched your "hat" video....Oh dear.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 06:30 AM

You dont have to insist that people learn or sing I just would insist that you make the opportunity available all the time and not just from recordings or published books nice but not easy or timely. While you can tediously line out the songs it is much easier just to pass out a few handouts.

Glad to see that someone has gotten through with a "crap" instrument.

If the prices are dirt cheap in your area that is fine and wonderful around there it is expensive. The baltimore washington area is now charging New York Prices and the musicians and singers are sort of their own special group one that would rather pay more.

As for the music the answer is YES. You do not find anyone round here with folkmusic in their head- the folk world is self limiting due to the attitudes expressed here.

No you dont pound music into people's heads you simply create an atmosphere where everyone can attend take part and can perhaps take home lyrics to a song or two....Lots of lessons can be learned from the fad of folk in the 50s and 60s.....At the huge festivals more can be done to downplay the pros.....encourage the ordinary....get the music off the high and remote and distant stages more than is being done.

What are you doing trying to promote folk music at a place that is at the higher end of the market- my point exactly. The other trouble is yes you cant awaken the muse at a one pint per person semi prohibitionist setting. And again I know for a fact that many many folk musicians are not moderate drinkers. Stop the drinking reform movement and you will find more people interested.

Today's baltimore washington folkie is a person interested doing music in a closed society. They have on the whole polarized politics, practice alternative lifestyles, generally are vegetarians, insist on playing at expensive venues and project a philosophy of either very moderate consumption of alcohol or none at all and play state of the art expensive instruments and these days dress up in expensive costuming. With so many barriers how can anything expand.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 05:06 AM

Don. CD will be placed in the loving care of the British Postal System today! You should get it by Christmas then!
As to the download topic. I'll be in touch. But I've got a rehearsal day today....(Is that a concept you recognise Conrad?)
As far as elitism is concerned. It just doesn't exist.
I'm lucky enough to have some well crafted instruments. I could afford them and over the years I indulged myself. Is that a crime?
Like Don, I have met many singer/musicians playing the cheapest of instruments, and have given moving performances. So, explain your elitism remark.
(Pointless request, you haven't answered anybody's questions yet, so why would you start now!)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:42 AM

Will, I don't even believe these "barriers" exist in his own locality. The only actual example he's given is an event held in the Wharf Rat bar, where his complaint seems to be that the beer is $5 a pint. So far as I can tell, that's fairly typical for good-quality cask beer in Baltimore pubs. It may not be the cheapest place in town, it may even be at the higher end of the market, but it's hardly the Ritz either. From its website it appears to be a pleasant pub serving good beer - an ideal folk venue, I should have thought.

Conrad has told us he regularly drinks 3 pitchers of beer in a session - that's 9 or 10 pints. Even in the cheap bars he favours he must be spending $10-$20 a time on "bier" alone, and that's without the food he also considers an essential part of the "folk experience". So let's say at least $15-$25 a time. He's got the cash, he just doesn't want to spend it on music. That's fine, it's up to him how he spends his money, but it tells us where his priorities lie.

The more plausible explanation is that the "barriers" have been put up by the local folk community who he's alienated with his unreasonable demands and boorish behaviour.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 03:28 AM

Lots and lots of these barriers make it difficult for the ordinary person to bring folk music into their lives in an active way.

You have been told, time and time again, that these so-called "barriers" don't make it difficult for ordinary people to enjoy folk music - the barriers only exist either in your mind or in your own locality. The only people who don't get folk music into their lives are those who don't actually want to. Can't you get that through your skull?

And I dont need any more examples of how occasionally here and there people have from time to time freed folk music.

Well, you're going to get lots more examples, Conrad, because where we come from it's the norm, not the occasional exception. You can't seem to be able to understand that, either, can you?

Yet again you have completely avoided any sort of answer to what music you consider to be so vital to people's "lifeway" that they have to be educated into it. Are we talking about the folk music brought into North America by 19th century immigration - Neapolitan folk songs? Irish jigs? Scottish hornpipes? Yiddish folk theatre songs and tunes? Delta blues? Appalachian songs and tunes? Cape Breton fiddle tunes? Cajun and Zydeco tunes and song? Child Ballads as identified by Harry Smith in his collection notes? Would you include the Carter Family and Jimmie Rodgers? Stop, perhaps, at the Delmore Brothers? How about Stephen Foster? Early rags and cakewalks? The piano boogies of Leadbelly?

Give us a clue as to what you're talking about - this music that is too important to be left to entertainers, so important that it has to be shoved down people's throats.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 03:16 AM

Once again, you're taking our comments and twisting them into something recognisable. Where has anyone yelled at someone for using a cheap instrument? Do you have any evidence of any performer being turned away because the folk police didn't approve of their instrument?

Of course you don't. But then you don't trouble yourself with evidence, you prefer to base your crackpot theories on your own prejudices.

Besides, the point was about quality, not price, although quality instruments generally tend to cost more. The difference is also more noticeable with some instruments than others - with concertinas (which is where this particular point started) there is a very considerable difference between a factory-made instrument and one made by a craftsman.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 09:25 PM

dont yell at people with cheap instruments

You get yelled at (or more likely just a cold stare) if you make your instrument sound cheap. Cathal doesn't do that and neither do I.

I often get asked what the instrument I'm playing in this picture is. The usual assumption seems to be that it has to be some sort of magical Scottish dance music flute handed to me by a samite-clad white arm emerging from a pool in the Highlands, or at least that I must have paid a lot for it. In fact it's a made-in-Indonesia Yamaha school descant recorder, about 7 quid from any music shop.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 09:15 PM

". . . some places have reasonable prices but never around here. The events I see listed are all in the most expensive places in town. . . ."

Not where I live, Conrad. And according to the vast majority of posts, not where most others live either. So why are you pissing and moaning at US?

Stop whining and either get up off your butt and try to change things where you live.   Or move.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 09:07 PM

"So dont yell at people with cheap instruments. . . ."

So, who does that, Conrad? Nobody I've ever met.

Even at the Seattle Classic Guitar Society, where some pretty damned expensive lumber shows up at the meetings. Several people there have $3,000 to $9,000 classics. But that doesn't prevent people with a $125.00 Harmony classic from playing.

I've never heard anyone complain about someone else's instrument. Unless the person who owns it hasn't tuned it. But that can happen with a $5,000 concert Ramirez.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 08:56 PM

I can't think of a much better way to alienate an audience than to INSIST that they learn songs that you are singing. Most people don't come to a performance because they want to sing. They want to listen to someone else sing. And the same thing holds for most people who go to folk festivals.

If they hear a song that they might want to learn, they will do so. Like I did in the early 1950s when I first heard Walt Robertson (HERE and HERE) sing and decided that I wanted to sing the same kind of songs that he sang. I talked to Walt after his concert, and he spent the next several months teaching me to play the guitar and teaching me many of the songs he sang. And he also taught my how to find songs on my own.

Many singers (and some fairly well known ones) have not only been willing to tell me where I could find the songs they sing, but have even suggested particular songs that they thought I might like and be able to do well. I really appreciated that. And when it seems appropriate, I do the same for others.

But only when I think the person might be receptive and appreciate the suggestions. Nothing quite as annoying as having someone try to tell you what they think you should sing.

A wise man once said, "People are like strands of spaghetti. It's much easier to get out in front and lead them than it is to try to push then from behind, which can get kind of messy!"

####

Regarding instruments:    Around 1961 or so, Alice Stuart showed up at a Seattle coffeehouse knowing about ten songs and playing a $25.00 plywood guitar. She audition and got hired. The fact that her guitar sounded like an apple crate didn't slow her down one bit. Early on, I gave her a few folk guitar lessons, and then she moved to California.

A couple of years later, she had a record out on Arhoolie Records (CLICKY) and was invited to be a featured performer at the 1964 Berkeley Folk Festival along with Doc Watson and Joan Baez. There, she met Mississippi John Hurt, went nuts over blues, and what she's been doing on the guitar since then was more what Mississippi John Hurt showed her than anything I taught her!

Then a few years after that, I saw her on the Dick Cavett Show (substitute host that evening was George Carlin). And a few years after that, Bonnie Raitt praised Alice for "breaking the glass ceiling" by being one of the first women to front her own band.

Alice is back in the Seattle area, and still at it. Hardly a week goes by when she isn't performing somewhere. She plays and sings a lot of folk, but heavy on the blues.

So I'd say the kid didn't do too badly with her cheap guitar. Of course, since then, she got herself a Martin D-18. Which STILL isn't the top of the line in D-Model Martins.

Like they say, "It isn't what you have, it's what you DO with what you have!"

####

When it comes to performing "at a venue that no one can afford but the wealthiest," golly gee whipsters, Conrad, ALL us greedy professionals do that a lot, don't we, folks!?? My goodness! Several times a week!!

Can you imagine a more up-scale place to perform than a brand new, acoustically perfect Opera House?

In 1962, during the Seattle World's Fair, Joan Baez (HERE) sang a concert in the brand new and quite posh 3,100 seat Seattle Opera House. Capacity crowd. Sold out. The average price for a seat (from orchestra up close to the stage to as far back as the second balcony) was about $2.00. Do the arithmetic.

You couldn't afford (or would be unwilling) to fork out $1.25 for a balcony seat, Conrad?

Of course they didn't (and still don't) serve beer at the opera house, so I guess your muse would remain dormant, Joan Baez notwithstanding.

By the way, whole armies of young women got themselves guitars (mostly of the apple-crate variety) and started learning songs off Joan's records back then.   Just from listening to her sing. She didn't have to hold a gun to their heads and insist that they should because it was their cultural duty to do so (can you imaging Joan doing something like that?). All she had to do was sing.

Of course, a bit later, she published a book containing many of the songs she sings. Oddly enough, it's called "The Joan Baez Songbook."

It seems a bit inconsistent to me that if professional singers wanted to limit the field and discourage competition, they would publish a book of the songs they sing. Or, for that matter, put out records. Lots of people learn songs from records.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 08:50 PM

By slight change of presentation you can do a lot of education. Not hard to combine them.

Again- you are most lucky to have such opportunities when they exist.

Absolutely people play cheaper instruments they all fill different roles and its ok. So dont yell at people with cheap instruments they may have some great songs.

When prices are high you limit the attendance- some places have reasonable prices but never around here. The events I see listed are all in the most expensive places in town.....

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 08:29 PM

Within a few minutes of our small town home, we can attend at least two concerts with excellent performers 9 months of the year. But the miserable elitists charge us $10.00 just to get in the door. And if we consume refreshments they dare to suggest that we drop a buck in the pot. Not only that, but the performers don't give away their CD's, with the exception that they frequently donate one or two for a door prize drawing. The same organization also has a minimum of one gathering a month when a number of rank amateurs lead everyone in singing, They also have frequent sing-arounds where absolutely anyone can take a turn in solo or combo with a friend; some who perform are probably on about a par with Conrad or WAV; I probably am myself, and I've sung a couple of times over the months when my desire to do some song over ruled my good sense. Also around the same town, there are at least 3 open mikes most weeks, no admission charge, where I or Conrad would be allowed to sing, though I'm sure those presenting them would cringe, and attendence would die out, if performers of our quality predominated. I wish someone would do something to break down the damned elitism here.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 08:25 PM

Re the expensive instruments thing: I run into Cathal McConnell quite often, as we both live in Edinburgh. I've played with him several times over the years - this does not make me part of any sort of elite club, Cathal plays with anybody who shows a bit of enthusiasm for the music.

I have seen the contents of Cathal's instrument case. It isn't very different from mine: he mainly uses cheap whistles, I mainly use cheap recorders. We both have Italian-type ocarinas and flutes that would make the average Chiff and Fipple subscriber cringe. I have sundry not-very-expensive Eastern European and Middle Eastern winds, he has a bunch of curio-shop Chinese flutes in strange keys.

Cathal is one of the best known traditional musicians in the world. I don't feel the least bit envious of any of his kit.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 07:02 PM

Mr Cringe - read back a bit further in this thread (the previous page) and you will find that Ralphie has provided details of the address to contact for the Eloise CD :-)

You're obviously living in a cheaper part of the country than me (or one where the clubs aren't charging the right amount to be able to pay the musicians a decent fee (by which I don't mean astronomical). Down here in the Sarf, locally we pay about £9 for a club night (in those where the best top notch acts are taken on) .. and I shall be paying £15 to see Eliza Carthy and Norma Waterson ... but in a very comfortable venue. Not prices I object to paying for a good evening's entertainment. Nevertheless, I can go to sessions etc locally which are free of charge, or minimal in cost ... just depends what I want on the night.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:43 PM

Me above!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:43 PM

What are these gigs that "only the wealthiest can attend"?

Most of the gigs I go to by professional musicians cost between £5.00 and £12.00. Considering three pints of bitter in the average UK pub costs about £8.25, that's not bad at all.

Add all the free stuff that happens, folkies do a lot better than most.

**********************************************************************

I'm perplexed about this notion that makers of hand-crafted instruments should give it all up because they're promoting elitism. I rejoice in the fact that there are people around with the skills to make a top quality concertina, for example. If the length of time the job takes and the expertise involved means they have to charge a high price to make a living, so be it. I'd hate to see those traditional skills go down the pan because only cheaply made mass produced instruments were acceptable. There has to be room for both. We should cherish our artisans and craftspeople.

**********************************************************************

Ralphie, if you haven't stopped rubbernecking the car crash and are still reading this, I'd like to buy a copy of your CD but I've lost you email addy. Could you send me contact details, price etc via the email at the bottom of this page? Maybe we could also talk downloads some more... Cheers!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:41 PM

This thread is really taking on a version of a car crash.
Nothing that any of us say will change Conrads views.
But, Hey Ho! In for a penny....
Well Conrad Old Bean.

I am an ordinary person, and through years of playing, I have entertained thousands of people.
What have you done?
And I would ask you to answer the questions I posed earlier...Or are you in a bar at the moment?