Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 03:45 PM

Thanks for providing that insight, Kevin. Your "flawed golden age" statement reminds me of history lessons about America in the post-Revolutionary-War era, when many people (perhaps even the majority of people) longed to be back under English rule because of the perceived security as well as the factor of wanting to maintain the status quo. They had good reason to complain, as the first new government that was attempted, under the Articles of Confederation, had fatal flaws. If the statesmen of the day hadn't gone back to the drawing board and created the Constitution, who knows what the American (and global) political landscape might look like today? Yet even under the second new government there was plenty of exploitation, dissatisfaction and yearning for the way things were.

Your statement also puts me in mind of the post-Civil-War Reconstruction era, where exploitation was worse than rampant.

No point here, just rumination about a couple of periods in US history that must have seemed worse to its contemporaries than what had gone before. Wonder what the Popes of those days had to say about those situations, if anything?

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 01:43 PM

John Paul has in fact been very scathing indeed about the damage caused by "free-market capitalism". That part of what he says has probably got a lot less attention in the media than it deserves.

What happened in the collapse of the "communist" regimes in Eastern Europe, w3hich deserved to collapse, was that the Western power structure - more especially that in the USA and the UK - saw it as an opportunity to wade in to exploit every opportunity, with no regard whatsoever for the well being of the people. The result has been, incredibly, that for many many people they now look back on the "communist" period as a kind of flawed golden age, when at least there was food on the table, you could be sure of a steady job, and the mafia weren't running wild.

The truth is, for the people who run things, it wasn't bringing freedom for the people they were really interested in, it was freedom to exploit the people. That's why they get on so well with the regime in China, which is as oppressive as can be, but is friendly to foreign capitalists.

And that has been more or less the way John Paul seems to have seen it.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 01:26 PM

Hmmm... "off-Mudcat self" doesn't sound right (after all, I'm the same self on- or off-Mudcat!). How about "out-of-Mudcat experience"? *G*

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 12:34 PM

Speaking of following without question...

Fionn: I think you're assuming a LOT from my original statement on this thread if you assume that I meant "communism bad; capitalism good". I'm disappointed to read that you've lumped me in with "a large part of a large nation [that] has signed up unquestioningly to so simple a view of a complex question" based solely on your assumptions about my original statement. Where in that statement did I say that all of the ideals or theories of communism were all bad??? Where did I say anything about capitalism??? Answer: Nowhere.

Let's take another look at the context in which I wrote my original statement: the two posts preceding mine. Mrrzy made a statement that the Pope is not "so much in service of others as ...in service of the Catholic Church". Big Mick then contended that JPII had indeed spent his life in service of others. I then agreed with Mick and said, "The term 'service' can mean many things. Look at Wojtyla's role in the downfall of communism in eastern Europe, for example." What I meant by that was that it has been my impression that John Paul II felt that his work in the Solidarity movement – in the pulpit and underground – was done in the service of humanity. As you yourself say, Fionn, no one likes to be ruled with an iron fist... nor to suffer from all that it entails. JPII was instrumental in opening that fist rather than smashing it – i.e. in bringing about a non-violent end to the Soviet empire. Who knows how many lives were saved because it did not end in a bloody revolution? Sounds to me as if he did a good deed there!

Now, as to the post-Soviet-collapse situation in eastern Europe, I think it should have been handled differently to avoid the problems that ensued, but nobody consulted me at the time! I do NOT necessarily think that a capitalist economy is all good; the thing about capitalism is that human greed drives it, but it needs a lot of governing to steer it so that it doesn't run over people. You'll have noticed that the US (I'm guessing that that is the "large nation" of which you speak) isn't completely successful at steering its capitalist economy, either! So maybe another economic system would be more ideal.... but every economic system is subject to greed and corruption and divisiveness and discontent. The thing that I wonder about the "higher proportion of discontented people" you mention is this: are there more people who are discontented now than there were under the Soviet regime, or are there more people who feel free to voice their discontent now that their current governments allow them to do so?

One definition of communism in the OED is "a theory which advocates a state of society in which there should be no private ownership, all property being vested in the community and labour organized for the common benefit of all members; the professed principle being that each should work according to his capacity, and receive according to his wants" (http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/communism-oed.html). To me it sounds lovely in theory. It would be nice if it could work in practice; however, it does not take into account human greed. As soon as any member of that society decides that his or her wants outweigh anyone else's, the balance is thrown off. When that member is a leader of the community, the greed has a good chance of manifesting itself as oppression. It's the oppression I find objectionable, not the higher ideals of cooperation and community as evidenced in the theory.

See, Fionn, that's where your assumption that my original statement has anything to do with McCarthyism is dead wrong. McCarthy had no right, in the US government, to oppress people in any way for their political views. I most certainly do not agree with, nor approve of, what McCarthy did. People here are supposed to be allowed to voice their discontent without being ostracized or accused of treason; heck, this country already fought its own bloody revolution over that!

Lastly, I'll state again that I do not think that crooks and other criminals should be protected from prosecution. I kinda thought you'd noticed that on the thread about that convicted murder who was appealing with an insanity defense that I did not find credible. Unfortunately, I don't remember the name of the thread, or I'd link to it for those unfamiliar with it. You've seen, too, my reaction to the Andrea Yates child-murder case, where I thought there was enough evidence to indicate that Yates had a bona fide mental illness; in that case I still don't feel she should have been protected from the long arm of the law, but I wish the law had taken that illness into account and sentenced her to mandatory treatment instead of incarceration. ...But as for people who engage in banking fraud and corporate fraud, by all means they should be brought to justice. I said nothing to the contrary in my original statement, and in fact I acknowledged later on in this thread that JPII's service to humanity did not extend to all areas.

I don't know what else to say to dissuade you from the notion that I "sign up unquestioningly" to any view. I think that many of my posts to Mudcat give adequate testimony to the fact that I do give a lot of thought to the opinions I hold. If you knew more about my off-Mudcat self, you'd know just how personally I've explored my questions about communism and capitalism, but I'm not inclined to bare my soul to the internet world about that. If you want to chat about it in a PM, Fionn, please contact me.

Sharon

P.S. – Sorry, everyone, if I've led this thread too far astray. Back to our regularly scheduled discussion...

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 11:49 AM

I suspect that a major factor is that when people feel that the questioners are really not concerned for the truth, but are just interested in using the issue as a way of attacking, the tendency is to close up.

It's a universal way for people who have something important in common to respond in this kind of situation. That's not saying it's the right way. In fact it's likely to be the reverse of the right way - there is a lot to be said for refusing to treat an attacker as an attacker even when the attack isn't veiled. And lot of the time what feels like an attack isn't in fact intended that way, and responding to it as if it was is very damaging.

I think something analogous to that, a kind of siege mentality, is a main factor in bringing about the cover-ups and so forth. That and a reluctance in many cases to believe such accusations can be true. (Which in some cases they will not have been, which complicates matters still further.)

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 09:57 AM

Rick, it seems like many of the pilgrims want the magic, and to belong to something bigger than themselves. It's the way I believe people feel when they buy into a cult. (Or extreme fandom: early Beatles - scream, faint, etc.) If such a thing is worthy of such devout fanatacism, it can't very well have 'real-world' imperfections, can it? If you're going to follow anything unquestioningly, there can't be anything to question, can there? There are probably kids out there who think and question, but they aren't the ones your talking about.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 09:35 AM

Two of our "youth oriented" TV stations tried to bring up the "child abuse" issue, and asked various young pilgrims what they thought could be done about it. I wasn't surprised that the kids (probably around 18+) seemed dumbfounded at the question itself. From what I saw, at least ten or so were asked for their opinions, and not ONE could articulate an answer that related to the question. They mostly said things like 'we need to pray more....'.

My guess is that among the devout young, victims of abuse and "questioners" are seen as weirdos, best avoided at all cost. I don't mean this as critically as it sounds....it strikes me as the same kind of relationship that "straight kids" had to hippies in the sixties and seventies.

Rick

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 02:22 AM

Joe,

Reminds me of a comment by Col. Potter on M*A*S*H. He basically said that Majors and Generals are alright to trust, but Colonels aren't because most are so close to being a General they can taste the power.

pax yall

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 02 - 11:12 PM

I'm still pondering this problem of sexual abuse by priests. I can understand why it happens - a very small number of priests are perverts, and they commit horrible crimes. It's as simple as that.
What's caused me trouble is understanding how bishops could let things like this continue to happen. I'm starting to develop a theory. In every diocese I've known (including Rome, where the Pope is bishop), the bishop is constantly surrounded by piranhas - power-hungry, self-seeking men who seek nothing but their own advancement. I suppose you see it in most organizations, but the piranhas seem to be particularly vicious in the Catholic Church.
The piranhas are a breed apart, intelligent, powerful men who aren't trusted by ordinary parish priests. The piranhas form a near-impenetrable shield, making it almost impossible to get through to the bishop.
My friends the nuns say that they've reported errant priests on a few occasions, and they have been frustrated by a constant lack of response from the diocese involved. I'm betting their complaints were intercepted before they ever got to the bishop.
I hope the current crisis will teach the Catholic Church a few things - especially, not to trust the piranhas.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: little john cameron
Date: 29 Jul 02 - 11:04 PM

Rick m'bye,You hit the nail square.It crossed my mind at the start off this"Happening",the similarity to Woodstock.You and I can also remember the early Mariposa festivals.Admittedly there was was no overtly Religious connection but put some flowers in their hair and string a few beads around and there you go. We all thought that "The Times were A-Changing" but the big con still goes on. These young people are to be admired for their aim of trying to get everybody onboard but unfortunately the driver has hijacked the bus. When the time come to move on to the next chapter in this saga there are going to be a lot of surprised people.ljc

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Jul 02 - 10:35 PM

Well, the whole shebang is over and I managed to not hit any jaywalking pilgrims while out on the roads. I would compare certain elements to that of Woodstock (the FIRST one!) except that the music I heard (on the tube) was worse than atrocious. Singer-songwriter stuff in "Celtic meets Andrew Lloyd Webber" mode. The big problem was that the songs went on for fifteen minutes with the same maudlin choruses repeated endlessly. When this happens there are always a few in the heavenly choir who start to extemporize big time....and I heard quite a bit of off-key improvising.

It really IS tricky to watch this going on all around you, when you simply don't relate it to the supernatural in any way......and believe me, I've tried. The tendency is to just shake your head in wonder at the hundreds of thousands of youth (and not so youth) who are so moved by it. I suppose it doesn't help also, that I spent a few hours on the net trying to read objective accounts of this Pope's life from the thirties on. I wasn't that impressed with many of the positions he's apparently taken....but what the heck, it's been an interesting week.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Jul 02 - 10:15 PM

I hesitate to revive this thread, but Sharon took me to task while I was away for a few days and I didn't want to duck the point. Also Gloredhel, I'd be extremely interested if you could turn up any second-century references to papal supremacy. I'm not questioning that they may exist, just interested as I've had a good look at the early period myself. (For instance looking for a link between Peter and the first Popes. I've not found one, nor any evidence that Peter was ever in Rome, apart from an argument (which may have some merit) that when the bible says he was in Babylon, this meant Rome.)

But back to Sharon. Sharon, it seems to me that your comment "Look at Wojtyla's role in the downfall of communism in eastern Europe, for example" in the context you wrote it, made sense only if you think we all buy into the assumption "communism bad; capitalism good." I for one don't, and I find it disturbing that a large part of a large nation has signed up unqestioningly to so simple a view of a complex question.

JP2 should have kept out of politics, just as Pius IX and his successors had no business knocking democracy.

This partly addresses Fiolar's point: religions do in fact interfere with people other than their zealous adherents, as when popes pontificate on birth control and homosexuality. Or when Jehovah's Witnesses oppose blood transfusions for minors, or when the Hindu custom of suttee required widows to throw themselves on their husbands' funeral pyres. On the whole, communities would surely be better off without all the mumbo jumbo, and those of us who believe this must preach the message with all the evangelic zeal we can muster.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 07:01 PM

Some bishops of Rome believed it early on, but so what else is new? Anything 2nd, 3rd, of 4th century that, for example, the Greek Orthodox Church would agree with as representing the consensus of the Christian church? I don't think so.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Gloredhel
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 06:35 PM

Peter T:

I found your comment on the ignorence of the youths you met in Chartres interesting, and disturbing. Please be assured that not all of us young Catholics love the Pope only because "he is wonderful." Some of actually have a working familiarity with his writings. Personally, I have been studying a compilation of his writings about human sexuality, and considering they come from a man without direct experience (I assume) they are certainly very beautiful.

And if you wish, I believe I can dig up quotes from some 2nd,3rd,and 4th Century texts which illustrate that at least some bishops believed in papal primacy that far back.

I wish it had been possible for me to be in Toronto this week. Many of my friends went to Rome two years ago, and I could not go then, either. Every two years I wonder if I've missed my last chance to see JP2 at a World Youth Day.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 12:18 PM

Don't believe it Doug - it's a typical liberal libel aimed at the flourishing lunar dairy industry.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 11:48 AM

The moon ISN'T made of green cheese? Shoot shucks. It's amazing what one can learn on the Mudcat.

DougR

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 10:33 AM

Fionn: What you say about the state of some countries after the fall of Eastern European communism may be true, but for you to extrapolate from what I'd originally said to an assumption that I align myself with McCarthy and that I've "warmed" to the protection of crooks from the "long arm of the law" was going way too far.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Fiolar
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 10:06 AM

Always amuses me when folk of other faiths criticise the Catholic Church for insisting that members of that church adhere to its teachings. Such teachings (to be blunt) have sod all to do with what others believe. If the folk of Kansas for example wish to teach in their schools that Darwinism is crap that's up to them. If folk want to believe that on the "last day" we'll all go to heaven in a flying saucer, good luck to them.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 09:56 AM

Think that was supposed to be a pun on "earning"?

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 08:59 AM

The big news today, according to a Catholic commentator, is that the Pope's visit shows there is a "boom in yearning". I think we can all subscribe to that.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 08:28 PM

It certainly is in this neck of the woods. In the Diocese of Grand Rapids, the Bishop has gone to great lengths to root out any incidents and remove the Priest. There have been a number of them that allegedly had one incident of some form of sexual abuse of position many years ago, with no sign of anything since. They were all removed from Priestly duties. As they should have been. Several of the Parish communities have been saddened and actually asked for dispensation on the basis of the offending Priests life and service since. But the Bishop, properly in my view, would not relent.

Mick

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 07:44 PM

There's always room for forgiveness, but that doesn't mean shrugging it off and acting like it didn't happen, or concealing it or denying it.

I can't see how there can be any possibility of anyone who has abused children being acceptable as a practising priest, or being trusted in any situation where he could do it again, or be tempted to do it again.

In fact that would be what any priest, or lay person for that matter, who repented what he had done, and might hope for forgiveness would insist on in any case.

And, as I understand it, after a period of shameful confusion, arising largely, I believe, out of genuine inability to believe that this kind of thing could happen, that is now the firm position of the church.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 07:36 PM

Then accept my sincere apologies for being snippy, hg.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 07:33 PM

...actually Mick, your opinion on this means a great deal to me....I did tell you what I think of it...thank you hg

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 07:29 PM

Actually, I detest it and my view, expressed long and hard to the Bishops of two Dioceses (I live midway between them) is that there is absolutely no room for child abuse within the Church or anywhere else, but most especially among our Priests. Anyone who truly has been abused sexually, physically, mentally, or any combination of the three is deserving of all the support available. I don't believe there is any room for forgiveness on this issue. They must give up their collars and face criminal prosecution.

Is that strong enough for you? I also believe that safeguards must be put in place to insure that innocent clergy are not the victims of false accusations.

And I have not heard anyone in this debate acknowledge that the statistics show that this a very small percentage of the Priests that have done these things. In fact one study that I saw reported indicated that it is likely a bigger problem in certain other denominations.

Now, could we get back to the discussion of the issue, or do Harpgirl, Fionn, and Kat want to continue the debate of Big Mick's views on this? I will let you both know when I am back in Toronto and perhaps we could start a thread to talk about my views, eh? And maybe yours as well?

Mick

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 07:02 PM

...I just figured the Pope's handlers thought it would be good press for him to show up at the Toronto children's meeting, cynic that I am...

throughout all this debate Mick, you haven't said what you think of the fact that repeated sexual abuse of children by Catholic Priests has been uncovered. Perhaps it is just too painful for you to consider. hg

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 06:02 PM

I must admit, Mick, that though I meant to keep both possibilities open, I finished up lurching to one rather than the other. I realise with hindsight that it looks quite bad. Many apologies.

Sharon, that's my point. In some countries, what followed communism turned out, almost incredibly, to be even worse. What they've got now are capitalist economies fuelled by rampant and divisive greed, and probably as much corruption as ever. Nobody likes to be ruled with an iron fist, but the alternatives can be worse (cf what followed Tito's Yugoslavia).

As for respecting other people's beliefs, I regard this as a bit of a mindless mantra. The catholic church doesn't do it, and neither do I. For instance I cannot respect people who believe that blacks are inferior to whites, nor that homosexuality is an evil, nor that the moon is made of green cheese.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 05:24 PM

As I read it, what Big Mick was saying there was that generalising from bad cases where things go wrong is no different from generalising from good cases where they go right; if it's right to go from the bad cases to a generalisation about the whole system being corrupt, it'd be right to go from the good cases to a generalisation about everything being fine.

Which isn't denying the suffering caused in the bad cases, which is how it seems to have been read as meaning. And one of the benefits of the Mudcat being a place where we can get to know each other in some way, surely noone can think that Big Mick was doing that.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 04:55 PM

No stomping off here, Mick. Just disappointment that you continue to ignore the point about validating victims AND continue to claim I, personally, have attacked the church or its officials in this thread. It's okay for you to react to my words but not vice versa is what I am reading in your posting. I tried to reach out as a friend in my first posting; you saw it as a "scolding," and reacted badly, imo, to that. So I guess we are even.

KT, message received.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 04:35 PM

Returning the compliment, Mick has made me think about what it means to belong to an institutional religion (Buddhism is about as institutional as the International Order of Cat Parade Marshals, but still); and what are the circumstances that would force you to decide to get out, rather than in -- a debate we have had here before on a variety of subjects.

Speaking of reading, it is worth pointing out that Garry Wills (whose book "Papal Sins", came out last year is quite brilliant, though not as good as his Lincoln in Gettysburg, which is among the greatest pieces of critical analysis I have ever read), just published, in spite of that excoriating take on the Papacy, "Why I Am A Catholic." His take is unlike Mick's, but, at least in the reviews I have read, he thinks it is possible to get the church out of the hands of the Papacy, if the history of the church is read right.

What the people of Australia must think of Archbishop Pell, heaven only knows. Perhaps he is Richard Chamberlain's son?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 03:58 PM

Well, I, too, was an Altar Boy. Actually, just for a day. But that's quite an achievement for a 12-year old boy raised as a Southern Baptist.

My friend Lenny was a bad influence. He smoked cigarettes, cursed like a sailor, stole things, and played dirty tricks on his playmates. He was also an Altarboy at St Clements Church in Kentucky. I stayed at his house one Saturday Night and was invited to go to Church with his family. Now, I had never even been in a Catholic Church, so I was a bit nervous about the type of rituals, idolatry and sacrifices I might be forced to witness. I was also a bit nervous about being behind the lines in the enemy camp. Imagine my shock when I was invited to join Lenny as Altar Boy! I was too stunned to say no. Surely they knew I was a heretic? Maybe it was a sly Catholic attempt at conversion? At any rate, I donned the holy vestments and joined Lenny behind the altar. The first thing we did was pass the plate. In my church, we literally passed a plate down the aisle, but the Catholics used an ornate brass covered dish on a long wooden handle, kind of like a holy popcorn popper.

We finished collection and took the proceeds back stage, where Lenny immediately appropriated some of the folding money. He offered me some, saying "nobody knows how much gets put in", but I figured if there was a sin that condemned you to hell, it was surely stealing from an offering plate. I couldn't believe Lenny, being a more or less professional Catholic Altar Boy, would have overlooked this. Our next chore was bringing the Holy Sacrament to the Priest for Communion. Incredibly, Lenny put his hand into the plate of Hosts and jammed a handful into his mouth, chasing it with a slug of the Blood of Christ. This I also refused, although he reassured me that it hadn't been blessed yet.

All in all, it was a good experience, and I was a bit sorry to doff my vestments, knowing that I would never again be able to put them on. I don't know if any Priest ever tried anything with Lenny, but I have a feeling he would have gotten busted in the chops if he did.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 03:50 PM

just a comment on one matter:

"....when the Pope speaks in very limited instances, as the spiritual descendant of the rock upon which The Church was built, he speaks with the protection of infallibility.."

well, one of the few things I have read extensively about is this. I did a LONG paper on it in college..(got an A)..

If I were Catholic, I would find it hard to take seriously a doctrine that was essentially force-fed to the Vatican Council by Pius IX in July, 1870...Papal Infallibility was a political move, and has been an awkward, seldom used doctrine ever since. I suppose one has to 'officially' support it if one is a practicing Catholic...but.....

A search on Pius IX, or "Vatican Council 1870" will yield some fascinating reading....

(I STILL admire the Pope for his determination under stress, while decrying his conservative policies...he reminds me of R. Reagan...doing harmful things to the policies, while Teflon coated when he is critiqued because he is such a nice fellow.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 03:17 PM

Surely noone is going to disagree with the statement "Our conscience can be wrong".

There've been too many cases of people doing horrible things in the conviction that they are right. I have no doubt at all that the suicide hijackers of September 11 were sure that they were acting in good conscience.

And that's just one example where it's easy enough to agree thatbthey got it devastatingly wrong.

At the end of the day, after you've done what you can to check whether what your consience tells is right is in reality right, "informing your conscience" as they say, the right thing to do is to follow that informed consience. But it can still be wrong even then.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 03:16 PM

Nope, kat, that wasn't a prejudicial statement. Twice in the last week you have chosen to scold me and then react poorly when I have answered. When you choose to ignore what was said, and instead spin it of into something else publicly, then that entitles one to react to your words. Words are all we have here.

I am not bulldozing anyone here, folks, and once again I would ask that you read all the words. Words are all we have here. The entire debate started when I objected to the painting of a man's entire life with broad strokes. Go back and read it. I then decided to share some deeply held, personal beliefs to see if it couldn't further understanding. Several among us choose to ignore those words, or accuse me of bulldozing when I shared them. It wasn't me who introduced the bashing of Christianity into the discussion. Want respect for your beliefs? Then show respect for the beliefs of others.

Seems to me that when logic and respectful discourse fail, then some turn to stomping their feet and walking away. I am sorry that it happens that way.

Now..............I must get back to the sources that Peter cites. Damn guy makes me do my homework before I respond.

Mick

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: GUEST,Bill D on the http;//207.103.108.101/ URL
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 03:10 PM

"....when the Pope speaks in very limited instances, as the spiritual descendant of the rock upon which The Church was built, he speaks with the protection of infallibility.."

well, one of the few things I have read extensively about is this. I did a LONG paper on it in college..(got an A)..

If I were Catholic, I would find it hard to take seriously a doctrine that was essentially force-fed to the Vatican Council by Pius IX in July, 1870...Papal Infallibility was a political move, and has been an awkward, seldom used doctrine ever since. I suppose one has to 'officially' support it if one is a practicing Catholic...but.....

A search on Pius IX, or "Vatican Council 1870" will yield some fascinating reading....

(I STILL admire the Pope for his determination under stress, while decrying his conservative policies...he reminds me of R. Reagan...doing harmful things to the policies, while Teflon coated when he is critiqued.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 02:35 PM

C'mon, folks. We're better than this. Be angry at the crimes, be angry at the injustice, be angry at the wrongs and yes, care enough to work for change. Thank God (or not., *BG* ), that someone is willing to do that. But let's be careful with each other. And respectful. Bashing someone's beliefs won't fix anything. And as Mick has, very patiently, IMHO, tried to encourage, let's have honest and fair communication about this. And respectful !!!! KT

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: SharonA
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 02:29 PM

Fionn: Ouch! Hey, I never said the guy was perfect, or that his service to humanity extended to all areas. All I meant was that John Paul II did some good. BTW, I don't think that the discontent in the countries you mention has as much to do with the fall of communism as it does with what replaced it there. But that's just my impression from the insular POV of a US citizen exposed to the US media's spin on the situation. I'm sure you're more familiar with the situation than I.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 01:53 PM

Mick, you said, A sign of maturity in these discussion is when one attempts to understand and then examines their own views in light of that discussion.

Yet, earlier, you claimed that I categorize(d) many fine men and women who have devoted themselves to the causes that are well documented is a travesty.

I did no such thing. I simply thought a possible victim deserved some validation, deserved or not, and expressed surprise at your response to them. You seem to have completely disregarded their claim of abuse and went right into a Pope defensive mode, attacking me through blustery claims.

The reason I answered before with a basic no comment is because you started out your response to me with a prejudicial statement, Once again, kat, you don't seem to be able to perceive what is being said, or you purposely are twisting the statement because you have an agenda. (If being unwilling to be bulldozed is an agenda, then I've got one!)

By that very statement you prove that you do not know me, anymore. Because of that, it seems there is nothing left for us to say to one another.

kat

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 01:21 PM

I think Mrzzy and Peter's last posts are very interesting. Goes to show that the "way" a story is presented by the media has a lot to do with the credibility of the story on the part of the reader/viewer.

I won't get into the can of worms that comprises most of this thread, but I would make a brief comment about Mick's response to the guest. Any doubters of the spirit in which he responded to "guest" should be satisfied with his explanation I think. There is no way to know if "guest" was reporting correctly, or merely trying to stir the pot.

DougR

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 01:18 PM

If people were saying some of this stuff about Judaism, it'd be called anti-semitism and bigotry. And some of it would be. Not all, but a good part of it.

The Catholic Church has the sicknesses of the world, and some of its own. Some of us think it's also got a source of healing, for itself and for those sicknesses.

As the man said, let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 01:17 PM

Fionn........I started looking at other ways to express my spirituality in 1970. I investigated and experimented with a number of Eastern disciplines, some of it in conjunction with my study of martial arts disciplines. For a time I completely rejected the religion I was brought up in and embraced pagan beliefs. I spent a period of time, and still find great interest and understanding in Buddhist concepts and practices. And I started reading and investigating how the early Irish and European Celts came to understand Christianity without throwing out all that they had come to understand about that which is ever watching. Over time I came to understand that we take many paths to understanding the same thing. This is the one that works for me. I must tell you, Fionn, that I resent you suggesting that somehow this all just comes as a result of what I was raised in. It has come as a result of my journey which has been long and has had many twists and turns. I don't know about your journey, but I have taken the time to explain something about mine. A sign of maturity in these discussion is when one attempts to understand and then examines their own views in light of that discussion. It seems to me that your style is to sit in a smug position (in your own mind) that your philosophy is right and the rest of us are making excuses. Why don't you try simply explaining your own positions, and never mind lecturing me about what I should do? Those who have met me and know me also know that I don't come willy nilly to these things. I have crammed a great many experiences into an altogether too short 51+ years. I don't claim that I am correct, but I do claim to have arrived at these philosophies by deliberate thought and meditation. Please don't insult that by suggesting I would be suprised if you are signed up to it because you searched it out from various options. This is why you come off the way you do in these discussions.

Might I suggest that you read Peter T's posting above? Rather than making any imperious, self righteous statements, he simply defends his position and then, with admirable sourcing, makes new arguments. His posts cause me to go back and think about my positions and then arrive at my own response. Yours just seem to point out what I said before about you.

Could we now return to the discussion at hand, as opposed to whether or not I am an automaton, or a thinking, reasoning, human being?

Mick

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 12:55 PM

The doctrines of the catholic church have been determined by a succession of popes and conferences (known as councils - Lateran Council, Vatican Council, etc), going way back before the infallibility thing was decided some 140 years ago. Those who challenge the church line are not "loyal opposition" but heretics.

The church reserves the right to change its mind on anything - for instance on the question of buying salvation through indulgences, limbo, etc. But anyone who challenges its line on any matter of faith, whatever the line happens to be at that moment, is always wrong.

Rather than leave these matters to chance, they are entrusted to a Vatican quango that has been known as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ever since the term "inquisition" got a bad press.

If I may say so Mick, such a rigorous framwork does not seem well matched to your free thinking, and I would be suprised if you are signed up to it because you searched it out from various options. If you are in it because that's what you were born into, it might be worth looking at what some other religions involve - still Christian, if that's where your faith is.

But if you go that course, be prepared to have fire and brimstone poured on you by the One True Church, which has shown again this week that its sheer intolerance of all other creeds.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 12:39 PM

Actually she was thrilled and overcome with love and emotion. ("I said I loved him, and he said he loved me."). At least according to my paper. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 11:47 AM

Anybody see last night's Headlines where Jon Stewart showed the video of that poor little girl being kissed against her will by the Pope and then running away crying? With voiceover (come here little guuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrllllllllllllllll)... sorry, but it was really funny. Poor kid, and on TV at that.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 11:45 AM

Thanks for that chilling report, Peter. That's what I call true extremism and scary.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 09:13 AM

Of course, Mick, your points are well taken -- traditions are like families, you have to take them as they are, with their faults, and the batty uncle in the back room. But people do break away from their families when they become seriously dysfunctional. These are the hard choices people make -- is it more toxic within, or without? In my tradition, the treatment of women is scandalous -- do I leave? No.

I don't recall making any gratuitous statements about the Pope, they seem to me to be well earned; and of course I am asking these hard questions out of puzzlement and a spirit of debate, not personal attack. It seems to me that the institutional argument (most strongly put by Cardinal Newman) is not exactly strong: Gary Wills' book on Papal Sins pretty well demolishes the myth about the historic supremacy of the bishop of Rome; but whether one accepts it or not, I cannot for the life of me see how anyone could accept the idea that the Pope, or the church, or the people of the church, could be infallible about anything, however circumscribed. Even infused with spiritual whatever. God seems to make mistakes all the time, if the Bible is any judge, at least He changes His mind. St. Peter himself made more mistakes of judgement in a shorter period of time than most of us make in our entire lifetimes.

Deep water indeed, but alas, the Archbishop of Australia has come to town to clear up all this independence nonsense. Day two in Toronto did not go well, Archbishop Pell speaking before a massed group of Catholic youth, argued that abortion was a worse moral scandal than the sexual abuse of children by priests. Having cleared that up (!), he went on to say: "The function of the Pope is to protect the tradition. He says this belongs to Catholic tradition and this doesn't. We are not free to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong. Our conscience can be wrong." (He got a standing ovation).

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 08:23 AM

How I'm interpreting what Mick said: there are people who do both bad and good things in the church. The structure and beliefs can be both good and bad. For him, the church at its heart is a good thing that needs work.

As far as belonging to a repressive institution, I wonder whether women in the US would ever have won the right to vote if they'd all moved elsewhere. I assume they believed in the ideals of the US, and stayed here to fight for change. I wonder about all those workplaces Mick works to organize. I wonder why all those mistreated employees stay and fight rather than just bail and find new jobs. Once you leave an institution you care something about, you lose almost all power to affect change.

I'm not Catholic and have never been Catholic. I'm not fond of the concept of organized religion in general. The feeling that there are those within the Catholic church who will keep advocating good and fighting bad is still comforting. The feeling that some would like those concerned folks to bail out and leave only the ones who don't care or the ones actually doing the bad things, is scary.

There seems to be a few extremists views expressed here, and I find extremism in general pretty scary. Seems like those views are pretty much summed up by "The church - love it or leave it." No room for people who see faults, work for change and DON'T leave.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 02:54 AM

Well, I suppose the Pope hasn't solved the problem of child molestation, so he must be guilty.
Or maybe the problem defies a simple solution, since it's a crime perpetrated in private.

I'm a very active Catholic and I spent 8 years in the seminary. Can't say I ever cared much for John Paul II. He seems like a dynamic man and he seems to be a good person, but he's conservative. He has done a lot to slow the progress begun with Vatican II in the 1960's. Many Catholics were unhappy with the changes brought about by Vatican II, and they're quite happy with John Paul II.

It seems to me that he's too sick to do a decent job, and that it's time for him to retire. Trouble is, he has packed the College of Cardinals with men who are more conservative than he is, and I'm afraid of the kind of pope they might elect.

I can't say he's a horrible man. He's just conservative. A lot of nice people are conservative - I don't agree with them, but I don't think they're horrible. I think the Pope is to the Roman Catholic Church what Ronald Reagan was to the US and Margaret Thatcher to the UK. Interestingly, they all took office about the same time.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 02:38 AM

Folks, you need to read what has been said, and what my position is. Perhaps we are all so entrenched in our positions that there is naught but words flowing with no attempt being made at understanding. Let my try to make it clear as to the intent of my posts.

First off, if ones intent is not to tear down an institution due to the belief that it has no redeeming value, one stays within and works for change. That is my understanding of loyal opposition. To remain a voice for change without trying to destroy the institution. While I respect your rights to not agree with my beliefs, you have no right to tell me I am wrong to have them. They are mine.

I believe, as a tenet of my faith, that when the Pope speaks in very limited instances, as the spiritual descendant of the rock upon which The Church was built, he speaks with the protection of infallibility. Yes, Peter T., I do believe this. But you must understand that these pronouncements are very rare. This protection does not apply to most things. On these things that are not spoken with that veil, I am free to agree or disagree. My disagreements certainly extend to the role of laity and specifically the role of women, certain forms of birth control, how the Church has handled the abuse tragedy, celibacy, and others. My disagreements are pointed specifically at the hierarchy of the institution. This is distinctly separate from my spirituality and my faith, which is an expression of that which lies within me. My beliefs with regard to my spirituality, the composition and relationship of this world with the otherworld, what happens when this house we liven dies, and so on, are what I believe in. I don't believe in the institution, it is just the outlet which I use to keep in touch with and express my spirituality. My beliefs are probably closer to those of the early Irish Catholics whom I have studied since long before it was fashionable. Many of my inner beliefs surely have their roots in the "religion" practiced by the pagan druids whom were probably some of the most spiritual and brilliant philosophers that ever lived. They understood the relationship of all creatures and beings with the Earth and the Universe better than most. And they understood that our lives are a quest that we can never expect to be victorious in. It is ajourney.

Then why do I call myself a Roman Catholic? Because in its celebrations, rites, and meditations, I find a structure that I can use for my personal journey. In the tribulations that the institution of Roman Catholicism faces, I find an outlet for my eternal quest to make things better. In the ever present struggles of many of the Saints, and martyrs, to change the world for the better I find hope in the face of the disappointments that that same institution specifically, and mankind in general are continually putting upon us. In the tenets of my faith, I find a code which I can live by. For me to leave this discipline, I would have to believe that it was inherently evil and could do no good. When I look at the examples of good people using this institution, and the teachings of Jesus, to face the struggles, it gives me hope. Mother Theresa would be the first example that comes to mind, and there are many others. The Capuchin monk, Solanus Casey, is another that leaps to my mind. Are there examples of abusers. Yes, many of them, but there are many more that are holy people that struggle heroically in the face of evil to make a difference.

Which brings me to Pope John Paul. Let us examine what I said. It was in response to friend Mrzzy, as well as a comment by my very dear friend, Peter T. They had both expressed cynicism with regard to the institution, and made gratuitous (IMO) statements about the Pope. I responded thusly:

While I understand the nature of your cynicism of the Catholic Church, Mrrzy, your comment seems to demonstrate a real lack of understanding of this man's accomplishments in service of others. I can understand not agreeing with some of his statements, etc. But to suggest that Karol Wojtyla has not spent his life in service of others is ludicrous.

This response did not exonerate John Paul's role in the scandals that are rocking the church. It simply pointed out that to suggest that he has not served people is ludicrous. I stand by that. We must examine a person's life in total to get a full read on that person. The book on this Pope will surely contain chapters that I will be disappointed with. But in the sum total, he will be seen as a man who lived by a code, and strove to serve many causes for the betterment of the people of the world. This is a major reason why he gets a great deal of respect from many people, even though they disagree with elements of his beliefs.

The response, and the thing that you are all focusing on followed the following post in response to mine:

......the pope proves his utter contempt for humanity.

To me this is an irresponsible thing to say. You may not agree with this man's beliefs, and you are entitled to that. But to suggest that he has "utter contempt" for humanity is just not supported by the record. Your word's have meaning and you should check what these words mean. What I believe you meant to say was that you have contempt for what his view of helping humanity constitutes. Had you said that I would likely have debated it, but not tried to attack your belief structure. That is yours to have.

In closing, It is not only possible, but inevitable that while humans are capable of independent thought, and reasoning based on their own life experiences, value systems, and beliefs, we will not all agree on what is the best or worst with regard to institutions and solutions. But intellectual discourse requires that one be held accountable for the statements they make. And that is what I feel I have done.

Mick

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 11:20 AM

Mick, I was going to say something too about your dismissing the abuse situation. Unless you have some inside knowledge that someone was making up a story, it is a horrible thing to tell someone that abuse never happened..that makes people crazy. I'm Catholic, not an especially good one. I like the pope although he needs to retire. I am horrified by the Church's stance on birth control..I'd make it mandatory for half the world. watch problems just dry up and disappear then...the whole way they have handled the abuse problems is just plain sick and criminal....I never personally saw anything come out of Vatican II except for really really bad music...but maybe there is something I don't know about. mg

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 09:30 AM

I think it is pretty easy to understand why people belong to churches that repress them, as long as it is what they grew up in, and that shapes their lives and gives them meaning, even if it is a distortion of what we (outsiders!) think is full human flourishing. One person's repression is another person's ritual and rules that give their life meaning. And if you think your church is broad enough, you can make it mean what you want it to mean -- a friend of mine says that the Catholic church is even big enough to include the Pope.

But is the Catholic church really that broad? Can you make the church mean what you want it to mean, and ignore the things you don't like. I can see getting away with that if you are a weirdo Buddhist, but can you do that in a church whose central dogmas do involve certain rules. If you don't follow those rules, then you can call yourself whatever you like, but you aren't. I can call myself a major league baseball player, but I am not. That is the great question. Along these lines, taking mild issue with Mick, I think one of the problems is that people like you can cast yourself as "the loyal opposition", but the "loyal opposition" is a technical term approved of, and recognised by Parliament as part of the system. I don't believe that the present Pope recognises such an opposition, in which case one of you is fooling yourself. I assume that the core fight in Catholicism today is whether the church as a whole, the people of the church as a whole, is to be the authority, or the Pope. This was the Vatican II fight, which was temporarily won on the side of the people of the church, but which has been hacked back ever since. Everything I read says loud and clear from the Papal brigades is that your position in the church is ultimately to be one of obedience to the teachings of the Holy Father when he is speaking as the voice of the church, that is where your loyalty lies, if you belong. As a good feisty American, you take issue with this, I assume!! If the Papal position is correct, then I fail to see how you can disagree with him, without imperilling your soul. If you are correct, then he is a serious menace, at the very least. The only saving grace, up to this point, is that people have ignored the Pope because he has no armies these days, and people have been able to fudge around the infallibility dogma. I don't think it has anything to do with how many good things the church or Christians have done over the centuries -- given the bad things, it is pretty much of a wash, I would say. The question seems to me to be one of principle and authority.

Meanwhile, here in Toronto, things are off to a pretty good start. The cardinal giving the keynote welcoming address to the assembled youth warned them against believing that other religions have similar beliefs and values. Doesn't want them wandering into Toronto temples and mosques while they are visiting our fair multicultural city. The Imam of the Toronto mosque was on the radio this morning expressing his dismay -- it turns out they were hosting a Muslim-Christian Ecumenical Youth gathering to coincide with the event!!

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 09:30 AM

Big Mick, who mocks a victim of Catholic sex abuse, should read the articles here.

Big Mick, who mocks a victim of Catholic sex abuse, should also read the articles here.

Big Mick, who mocks a victim of Catholic sex abuse, should also read the articles here.

For a Catholic perspective, Big Mick, who mocks a victim of Catholic sex abuse, should read the articles here.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 09:27 AM

It seemed to me Big Mick (and still does) that you're saying the pope is wrong but it's OK because he's convinced he's right. What else can be in your mind when you come out with stuff like (for instance): "I may not agree with much this Pope has done, but he is a man of his values and his faith." Correct me if I'm misreading something.

When abused altar boys and others have complained, this church has treated them with stupendous arrogance. Too many families have been gullible and feeble enough to fall in with it. So kids have not only suffered abject torment, but also have been dismised as liars and shit-stirrers. And you just look the other way.

I am amazed, Big Mick, to see you clutching at the pope's "inequivocal" line on criminal perverts. Why were the likes of Archbishop Ward in Cardiff or Bishop McComiskey in Ireland or Law in Boston, among others, allowed to cling to their offices and continue to shelter abusers? What sort of signal does this send about the place for children in your church?

In short there is a colossal gulf between what the pope says and what he has actually done. Have a quick look at this: Vatican "knew of widespread abuse" It's the respected aid agency CAFOD confirming that a report into priests abusing nuns in Africa was sat on by the Vatican for SEVEN years. Parts of the report you couldn't make up. (One priest impregnated a woman, forced her to have an abortion and when she died, officiated at her funeral!)

Pause for thought, Mick. There must be more to your argument than "my church right or wrong."

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 05:42 AM

Whatever you say, Mick. Obviously your mind is made up no matter what anyone else has to say.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 04:20 AM

Depends on whether he can find an interested female !

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 02:44 AM

Fionn, your predilection for just arguing is showing. Says something about your ability to have a decent discourse. You apparently feel that it is not possible to admire your adversary or someone you disagree with. That is the attitude of a juvenile mindset, or one who is very bitter, or one whose experience in the world comes from only studying ideology, conflict and never experiencing it. It's the old purity of thought bullshit. You don't seem to understand the concept of loyal opposition. Whatever it is that makes you this way seems a damn shame to me.

No where have I said that I agree with the Pope on all issues. What I did say is that it is ludicrous to say that he hasn't devoted his life to people. In the Lomax threads, most people seem very willing to judge his whole life, and forgive him his errors due to the place and time he was raised. Karol Wojtyla deserves the same.

Mick

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 02:18 AM

Once again, kat, you don't seem to be able to perceive what is being said, or you purposely are twisting the statement because you have an agenda. The altar boy made the claim that due to him, his cousins, brothers, etc all being molested, hence The Church is populated by child molesters. First off, I don't believe that. Second, that is what is known as a gratuitous statement. Since his supposed experience was being used as evidence of his statement, I used my own to show that his statement is not true. Is there a problem? Absolutely. But The Church's worst detractors even admit that it amounts to a very small percentage.

Your dislike of Christianity is well documented. But to categorize many fine men and women who have devoted themselves to the causes that are well documented is a travesty. How would you explain those that have devoted themselves to the cause of peace? World hunger? Anti nuke movement? Environmental causes? Civil rights? Homelessness? The Labor Movement? How about Mother Theresa? Be upset with the hierarchy, and know that I share many, in fact most, of those same concerns. But to make the same blanket statements that you find abhorrent when applied to Paganism is just plain bigotry and hypocritical. How about we start painting you folks with the brush of animal sacrifice? You and I both know that that is not representative of all the Priest/Priestesses, but it would be the same thing, would it not?

Mick

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 02:04 AM

Whether it is true or not, to invalidate a claim of abuse by saying you and your family never suffered any, ergo no one else must have, Mick, is a surprise. I know it is a Guest posting and it could just be a flamer/troll, but that kind of flippant response and defense doesn't sit well with your past postings over several years.

Allan Dennehy, I've never understood that about women belonging to such a repressive church, either, but I have known and loved many who do, including my deceased mother-in-law. For that matter I don't understand anyone belonging to a religion which represses them, including other Christian churches.

kat

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Allan Dennehy
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 01:51 AM

Like all dictatorships the popes church is finally collapsing. The pope's covering up of sex scandals and his contribution to world overpopulation is catching up with him. I've never understood how a woman could be a member of such a chauvanistic organization! Are there really that many machocists in the world. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Ducks............

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 10:55 PM

A fellow named Mick was praising honest mysticism a few posts back. He's wrong, more or less. When our Norse ancestors cut the blood eagle into some thralls back, I'm sure that many had solemn thoughts of the AllFather. In America, the priests of Ah Puch never cleaned the blood from their robes or hair. Only a saint could stand that. In Eurasia, the rites of Chernobog were said to have been deeply moving. When the British in India were hanging the Thugs, many of them refused to present a defense. Sacrilege, don't ya know. Mysticism may be a better excuse than none at all, but it's still no excuse. It didn't get any Nazis off, did it?

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: GUEST,glen2Glenn
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 12:47 AM

I have twenty pounds in store, that's not all.
I have twenty pounds in store, that's not all that's not all.
I have twenty pounds in store, and I'll rob for twenty more,
for the rich must help the poor, so must I, so must I,
for the rich must help the poor, so must I.

Sam Hall would have made a good pope.


Glenn

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 08:29 PM

Ingenious Big Mick. You don't like what the pope does, yet revere him for his values. Is it him that's two-faced, or you? And instead of basking in what he says about child abuse, why not take a look at what he's actually done about it?

Wojtyla may have done for the so-called communism of eastern Europe, but all popes love totalitarianism in all its other forms. From Pius IX onwards they could not have been more clear in their horror of democracy.

Maybe SharonA is too imbued with the evils of "communism" to notice that some of the countries now "liberated" (Russia, Ukraine, the former East Germany; if not Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia) have a higher proportion of discontented people now than they did before.

It was at least amusing to note the palpable dismay in the Vatican as John-Paul II's obsessive horror of soviet communism went as far as an axis with Israel! So much for Pacelli's pact with Hitler!

What blatant and needless hypocrisy, by the way, for Wojtyla to take the name John-Paul. His humble predecessor took that unique course out of respect for both Paul VI and John XXIII. Wojtyla has devoted his papacy to unravelling all John John XXIII's progress towards a united Christian church. Or he at least allowed his Rotweiler, Joseph Ratzinger (head of the inquisition) a free hand.

And if SharonA likes his McCarthyite credentials, she will have warmed also to his capitalist credentials, as seen for instance in his protecting crooks like Bishop Marcinkus from the long arm of the law.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 08:06 PM

No, no, Mick, I was not remotely adopting a mocking tone (and of course we disagree fruitfully when we do). I cannot fathom it. It is a kind of disconnect. I was in Chartres about a month ago, and there were young French people parading and gathering who were going to Toronto, and when they found out I came from Toronto, we sat down and talked, and they were thrilled to be travelling and going to meet lots of other young people, and as soon as I asked them about His Holiness they froze, and none of them could say anything about him except that he was "wonderful". I asked them what they thought about any of his social policies, about stifling dissent, women's rights, about the future of the church, and they shrugged their shoulders in what I can only call embarassment. But "he was wonderful". I suppose that the idea must be that you ought to be able to separate the social and the spiritual, which may be true if you are an individual, but not if you are the head of a church which is so intertwined with social policy all over the world -- they have status at the UN -- and besides, if that is what one should do, separate them -- then why does the Pope not separate them himself? He has exhibited on countless occasions little tolerance for dissent, for other people's spiritual journeys within the church. He should have retired into prayer and his personal journey many, many years ago.

Tangerine togas? Shriners are usually in red fezes. Hare Krishnas also scare me, not to mention Buddhists who think the Dalai Lama is never wrong.

I think John Paul was a great Polish patriot and anticommunist. Unfortunately, the long years fighting the monolithic state led him to become what he beheld.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: RichM
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 07:49 PM

When a pope is served by adoring servants,dresses in fine garments, offers ceremonies using gold and silver objects---how is he doing Christ's work?
Not the way Jesus did it, is it?

sign me, a reformed catholic

Here's how you'll know when the Catholic Church becomes serious about reform:

When priests no longer molest children;
When women are accepted as fully equal to men
When motherhood (ie, sexuality) is praised more than virginity...

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 06:40 PM

Glen2glen, please read my post. I purposely used the name his parents gave him to make a specific point. I also indicated that I understood cycicism about the church. But I stand by the main premise of my post. To suggest that Karol Wojtyla hasn't spent his life in service to others is ludicrous.

And Peter, my dear friend, were there any fella's paradin' around in tangerine toga's? You know the ones, shaved heads and acting like the secret to the universe lies in their grasp? Does the thought occur that maybe, just maybe, these young people have a brain capable of making judgements on their own as to what values their own spirits hold dear. I certainly am part of the loyal opposition within the Church, and agree with most of your assessment as to the policies this man has implemented. But I would remind you that even his most strident critics acknowledge that this man is a mystic and operates from a deep spiritual place within himself. He acts on his conviction, and his faith.

Take note, friends. You won't see Peter and I disagree often. But the tone of my friends post suggested a mocking tone. I may not agree with much this Pope has done, but he is a man of his values and his faith. At the risk of much criticism from the modern world, he has stayed the course on what he considers right and wrong. As far as the fool above who claims all the abuse..........I don't believe you. And even if it were true, I was an altar boy, as were many in my family. None of us were ever molested. So what is the relevance of your statement? And what does it say about the Pope, who has clearly and unequivocally stated that there is no room in the Church for any that would harm the children?

Mick

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 06:15 PM

I am sorry, I cannot figure this out at all. Here is a man who has systematically betrayed the legacy of Vatican II, centralized the church as no one has for the last hundred years, stifled criticism, especially the Latin American social justice movement almost singlehanded, and has about as much relevance to today's youth as the Lone Ranger has to nuclear physics. What possesses young women to flock to this guy, the single most powerful stumbling block to equality in their own church, not to mention control over their own bodies? They are abandoning everything he says about them as fast as they can. I cannot fathom it at all, except that it is celebrity, and nothing is as exciting to young people today as celebrity.

But of course I welcome him to our fair city. We welcome all kinds -- I particularly enjoyed the international Shriners Convention last year, full of old men in shiny outfits and funny hats, sort of like cardinals but without the Latin. I am only sorry His Holiness missed the Gay and Lesbian Parade a couple of weeks ago. He might have learned a few things post 1500 A.D.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: GUEST,glen2Glen
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 06:08 PM

Big Mick
I normally agree with most of what you say but here I must draw your attention to "the state of the house he is living in". Has this not been brought about at least in part by successive generations of popes?
I have nothing against the man himself other than his entrenched indoctrination, but I wonder about the position he holds, the the absurd amount of power it carries, and the way it is and has, through the centuries, been abused.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 05:24 PM

Hi Mick, Mrzz, Mmario, Sharon, WYS, and Monti. Ya know...."the eyes have it"(sic) and as you probably know, I'm not a big supporter of giant organizations.....but....I like what I see in this old guy's eyes. I feel very sorry that he has to keep globe trotting when he's as sick as he is, but I guess that's part of the job description. I've known several clergy-folk (from pretty varied organizations) and they ALL worked 24 hour shifts. My cynicism goes out the window when I focus on individuals.

On the other hand, the traffic in Toronto is gonna be friggin' nuts this week!!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 05:22 PM

The Pope is ay work...doing what he does. I'm sure he believes he will be called when it is his time, and he intends to do his job until then.

I respect his determination to go as far as he can. (Remember what a surprise he was when elected!...I'm sure the downfall of the Soviet bloc was hastened by a Polish Pope smiling on the protestors at the shipyards)

He will get his rest soon, let's not speculate TOO much about when.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: GUEST,once an altar boy
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 05:20 PM

Every time it comes to light that another priest is a child raper, and there have been hundreds of such revelations, and the Catholic Church does nothing or covers it up, as it has so many times, the pope proves his utter contempt for humanity.

I know, I've been there. My brother has been there and two of my cousins have been there.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 05:17 PM

And BTW, GUEST Giovanni Battista Montini (AKA Pope Paul VI, deceased), it was so kind of you to take time off from your eternity of praising our Lord with the angels, to share your concern for your brother in Christ, with our little group here at the Mudcat.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 05:12 PM

This is what I see from where I sit.

Every time a priest suits up, prays as he or she does so, and goes out to celebrate the Mass, he or she is serving others.

Every time a priest responds prayerfully to a matter of concern instead of adding to people's upsets, he or she is serving others.

Every time a priest leaves his or her dinner to tend a dying stranger's family, he or she is serving others.

Every time a priest leaves his or her warm bed to respond to a family-in-crisis call, a suicide call, a please-help-me-I've-been-raped call, he or she is serving others.

Every time a priest prays with compassion for the family of a child who has died, he or she is serving others.

Every time a priest subjects his body to rigors beyond his own strength, so that he may go out in any weather to bring a people together in prayer and worship, he or she is serving others.

===============================================

He or she may also be serving another goal or organization. But the service to others is there, nonetheless.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: SharonA
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 03:59 PM

I'm with Big Mick on this one, and I'm an agnostic leaning toward atheism! (...secular humanism? ...whatever.) The term "service" can mean many things. Look at Wojtyla's role in the downfall of communism in eastern Europe, for example.

Subject: RE: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 01:57 PM

While I understand the nature of your cynicism of the Catholic Church, Mrrzy, your comment seems to demonstrate a real lack of understanding of this man's accomplishments in service of others. I can understand not agreeing with some of his statements, etc. But to suggest that Karol Wojtyla has not spent his life in service of others is ludicrous.

With sincere respect,

Mick

Subject: RE: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 01:52 PM

Being the pope isn't so much in service of others as it's in service of the Catholic Church. It's not like he's Mother Theresa...

Subject: RE: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 01:36 PM

When one understands the eternal nature of it all, then they are not concerned with the leaving of this leg of the journey. In fact, given the state of the house he is currently living in, I would suggest that he probably looks forward to leaving it. When his work is done, that is.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 01:29 PM

The Pope is well attended by a retinue of people who care about and for him, and he ought to be respected for being able to make up his own mind about what he can do and how to conduct his life. If he chooses to give his life in service to others, good for him.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: MMario
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 01:05 PM

so - you either gotta give the guy credit for going on with things - or consider him a complete idiot for risking his life. But I doubt he'll take our opinions into consideration.

Subject: Pope in Toronto: Will he make it?
From: GUEST,Giovanni Battista Montini
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 01:03 PM

Pope John Paul II is coming here to Toronto this week. Then he goes to Mexico and Gautemala where it's kinda hot and humid this time of year.

The guy looks like he's been on death's doorstep for a while now. I don't think he'll make it back to Rome.