BS: Hacker to be extradited to the US

Subject: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:08 AM

According to the report on the BBC website, the Law Lords have seen fit to extradite a 42-year old hacker to the US for hacking into military and NASA computers whilst looking for evidence of a UFO coverup.

Seems he made the military and NASA look like a bunch of pillocks for having such easily hackable computers - shouldn't they shake his hand and employ him to help close the security loopholes rather than bang him up for 60 years?

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:26 AM

They probably are.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:46 AM

The Extradition Treaty between UK and USA is SO one sided it is beyond belief !!

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 11:09 AM

>>The Extradition Treaty between UK and USA is SO one sided it is beyond belief !

Is it really? Are you saying that US hackers are hacking into British sites and not being extradited?

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 11:29 AM

A request for extradition of a suspect fromn the UK to the USA does not require the prosecutor to make a prima facie case, and the alleged crime does not even have to be an offence in British law. The allegation is sufficient. However, to extradite from the USA to the UK, the allegation has to be illegal in the USA and the evidence must be presented to the US courts.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 02:09 PM

When you're a loyal satellite country you have to put up with disparities like that...

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 03:25 PM

'hacking into military and NASA computers whilst looking for evidence of a UFO coverup.'

That's what he says NOW. Just because he says it doesn't mean it's true. Even if the BBC quotes him.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 04:32 PM

Gary McKinnon is accused of having invaded computer networks run by the Pentagon, by NASA and by dozens of other parts of the United States government in 2000 and 2002. Along the way, prosecutors say, he crippled crucial instruments of national security just after the Sept. 11 hujackings, when the government was trying to head off any further terror attacks.
Prosecutors say he was after the truth about aliens and "other government secrets."
NY Times, article July 30, 2008, Mike Nizza.

One has to watch these Brits. They may be after the secret ingredient in Starbucks latte.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 04:43 PM

What Paul Burke says is

(a) correct

(b) dangeous; and

(c) a form of colonialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 04:50 PM

Are you saying that the US is imposing the extradition treaty by force?

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 06:08 PM

By Force Jack ? The way it works , by FARCE is a much better description .

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 07:11 PM

No force needed. Not with what they call "the special relationship". You come across people in relationships like that from time to time. Not very healthy relationships, the truth to tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker faces extradition to the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 07:17 PM

There's still an appeal against this decision pending, and the European Court of Human Rights could still stop this happening, so the title thread is a bit premature. It really ought to be the way I've amended it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: GUEST,Arnie at work
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:35 AM

Did this bloke really believe that he could fiddle around inside US military databases and get away with it? He's obviously not stupid as he managed to hack into the systems in the first place. That being so, he should have forseen the repercussions and not now try to hide behind the UK legal system. He didn't consult any lawyers before committing his deed so should be man enough to accept the consequences now.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 07:01 PM

How is the USA ever going to know whether its database security is up to scratch or not, if public spirited character like this don't take the trouble to hack in and demonstrate that is in fact total crap.

But of course the priority is that the people in charge don't want to be shown up in this way. If the consequence is that the holes in security don't get identified and corrected, and hackers in the service of Al Qaeda/Iran/China/Israel etc can waltz in and do what they wish, that doesn't matter. Just so long as they keep quiet about it in public.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:20 PM

The sentences these guys serve are cruel and severe for what amounts to being a peeping Tom with out harming an actual person.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 07:27 AM

Sorry to hear this news.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 10:26 AM

His statement that he was only after UFO coverups is
A. Self-serving and after the fact, and so questionable

          and it is also

B. Irrelevant.

His denial of the amount of damage done is, as far as I can understand, both self-serving and beyond his possible knowledge.

His Asperger's syndrome status (which I'll assume to be true) was not so extreme as to prevent an elaborate and sustained technical effort. Asperger's is not a fixed-quantity sort of thing, and nothing in what I've read so far really tells much about the real severity of his condition.

There was a comment in the linked article essentially protesting about the extent of the penalty. Those figures (70 years, as I recall reading), when tossed around like this in news media, are meaningless, because they merely add up the legal maximum-possible sentences, which are seldom or never actually imposed.   

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 10:40 AM

Gary McKinnon in his own words

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 10:54 AM

The divide between Mudcatters in the UK and the USA is a clear one. Wrongly or not, it irritates me to have a group immediately jump ON the US and OVER the UK.

From the BBC link:

"A statement by solicitors for McKinnon, who was not at the Lords to hear the judgement, said: "Gary McKinnon is neither a terrorist nor a terrorist sympathiser.

"His case could have been properly dealt with by our own prosecuting authorities. We believe that the British government declined to prosecute him to enable the US government to make an example of him.

"American officials involved in this case have stated that they want to see him 'fry'." (This sentence bothers me a lot; it is attributed to "American officials"? Ebbie)

"The consequences he faces if extradited are both disproportionate and intolerable."

My point is that it appears that the UK chose to wash their hands of him.

Allegedly, there have been many cases where a hacker/burglar/lockpicker has been subsequently employed by authorities, so if this man is not recruited, it may be because he is unreliable or unpredictable.

By the way, if an American hacked into British computers, military, governmental or whatever, what would the UK response be?

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 11:16 AM

I dunno, after several episodes of MI5 aka Spooks shown on PBS, over here, I am inclined to not believe a word of it, from either side, and figure there are much more nefarious machinations going on with misinformation, ingenious twists to the plot, etc. AND, the aliens are probably behind it all since we all know there really are UFOs. (Which will all be revealed next week.)

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: meself
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 12:08 PM

"His Asperger's syndrome status (which I'll assume to be true) was not so extreme as to prevent an elaborate and sustained technical effort."

My understanding of Aperberger's, which, admittedly, is limited and mainly anecdotal, would lead me to believe that obsession with technology is a likely result and expression of that condition, and that the more extreme the condition is, the more likelihood there is of a concomitant "an elaborate and sustained technical effort."

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 12:12 PM

You do the crime, you do the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: meself
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 12:26 PM

No, we don't want to make any allowance for madness, do we? That would send the wrong message to the mad.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 12:40 PM

I just listened to the whole interview linked to by Carol C. The person I liked least was the interviewer herself. She used words like "Absolutely!" "Stupendous!" "Great!" "Wow"! and kept trying to inject allegations of humans being held "off world", having been exchanged for aliens who are evidently being held here. She tried repeatedly to put words into his mouth. Unpleasant person.

But there are a number of anomalies and inconsistencies in his statements. Notably the dates of his involvement. First he says he was "involved" (his word) with it in 2000-20001, then later he says that he was 'caught' in March 2000 and charged in November 2000.

He says that he didn't consider himself a hacker at the time but goes on to say that his "unhealthy obsession" (his phrase) began after reading a book entitled "The Hacker's Handbook."

His main complaint appears to be that the UK did nothing themselves, rather turned him over immediately to the US, tossed him to the wolves so to speak.

He says that his main hope at this point is that the case will be dropped or at least tried in his own country.

I hope we hear more as it goes along.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 12:47 PM

What madness?

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 12:58 PM

From my perspective, I don't blame any country for being worried about any person rummaging around in their computers. McKinnon may have had no ulterior purpose in mind - although at the very least he was searching closets that didn't belong to him - but the victimized country cannot be sure of that without investigation.

By the way, he does say that the UK's governmental security is "very, very, very good."

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 01:15 PM

By the way, he does say that the UK's governmental security is "very, very, very good."

So presumably he's tried it? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 01:20 PM

Ebbie, you're right that the UK chose chose to feed this guy to the wolves. That's the point that most people of the British side of the water have been making themselves, surely? The point at issue is the one that Paul Burke explained - that the extradition agreement is grotesquely one-sided (thereby reflecting the whole US-UK relationship at government level).

And meself's understanding of Asperger's is about right too. I am a governor at a college which has a number of students with Asperger's and the most obvious way the condition manifests itself is in obsessive and often irrational behaviour. One of its peculiarities is that it is often - in fact usually, in my experience - accompanied by exceptional ability in mathematics and related subjects. (I tried reading the Hacker's handbook myself and gave up on about page 3.)

Leeniea, no authority in the UK seems to be suggesting that McKinnon is any kind of spy or terrorist. The US admin of course has presented no evidence of any sort, which is presumably their idea of justice in action. But watch that interview and judge for yourself. Clearly though he's going to get the book thrown at him stateside, or why have they pushed for this extradition so hard for so long? The point that people in the US should be thinking hard about is that if this singleton looper can go wandering round the nation's most secure databanks at will, any half-competent terrorist group in the world can do it.

Does anyone know what's wrong with Jack the Sailor? He keeps asking what people are saying, and it is clear from his guesses that he hasn't a clue. Perhaps someone could talk him through this stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 02:04 PM

I mentioned JtS' posts in this thread to him this morning and he doesn't remember this thread at all, or his posts in it (his posts were made exactly a year ago yesterday, so I don't blame him for not remembering them).

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 02:24 PM

No, we don't want to make any allowance for madness, do we? That would send the wrong message to the mad.

No one, to my knowledge, on either side of the prosecution, or on either side of the pond, has suggested "madness" here.

Clearly though he's going to get the book thrown at him stateside, or why have they pushed for this extradition so hard for so long?

It's anything BUT clear that 'he's going to get the book thrown at him stateside'. The charged conduct, in I don't know how many counts, is severe and potentially dangerous enough that the US officials MUST vigorously pursue the admitted perpetrator, and MUST determine, to the extent they can, the extent and nature of the security breach(es).

The "only UFO" claim, if found believable, and the Asperger's status will of course feed into mitigation at disposition. So will such cooperation as he deigns to give. So will the potentiality of deterrence of other future hackers, whatever their motivation and/or mental status.   

And as to the purported quote, "American officials involved in this case have stated that they want to see him 'fry'," I am extremely doubtful that anyone in any remotely responsible position said any such thing. Who is it that is claimed to have said that?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 05:49 PM

Thanks Carol. I hadn't realised that the early posts above were so old.

An American lawyer interviewed on BBC News just now said that the US attitude to hacking has hardened significantly in recent years and that McKinnon would have been likely to get a much lighter sentence if he had agreed to extradition when it was first sought (2004). Incidentally McKinnon himself does not say that security on the US systems was poor but that there was no security! Just how sensitive was the stuff he accessed?

And would anyone like to have a stab at guessing how he is supposed to have caused $700,000 of damage when he didn't even download anything? Maybe that's what it cost to make the precious data safe, in which case the US owes McKinnon a big thankyou.

The extradition agreement stinks, certainly, but the behaviour of the US authorities is farcical. It is also vindictive.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 07:22 PM

DaveO: they don't need to do any investigating now, they did it all a year ago.

It's all about lese majeste.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 09:13 PM

The regime has changed; he can't be water-boarded or sent to Guantanamo and put in storage, but hackers of all kinds are a danger to the public as well as government and deserve prosecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: SharonA
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 09:51 PM

Hmmm, I always thought it was spelled "extradict"... or is that an archaic spelling of the current "extradite"?

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 11:28 PM

'Extradict' not in the current Webster's Collegiate. Not in Oxford. Gee, how old are you?

The Oxford Dictionary has the word extradictionary, but that means something outside of the mode of expression; not real. Nothing to do with extradite, extradition, which appeared in English print in the 1830s, from the French 'to deliver up.'

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 01:55 AM

I'm 53, Q. Guess I just always spelled the word incorrectly. Thanks for the information!

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 03:30 AM

I cannot see what is to be gained by extraditing this bloke to the USA and severely punishing him, the deed is done, it can't be undone, so it must be out of revenge for making them look stupid.

It's pathetic.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 03:53 AM

McKinnon broke the law, admits it and says he would do it again. He downloaded flies, deleted others and left inflammatory messages, knocked out a Navy comms system which cost $70,000 to repair and swore to continue his activities. All this in the immediate wake of the September 11 attacks.
As such his guilt couldn't be clearer.
It's clear that the Court of Appeal didn't just rubber-stamp the extradition request - the judgement runs to more than 40 pages - and I'm sure that neither the judges nor the politicians in the UK actually want to see him hung out to dry. Their hands are tied, however. You can't suspend the rule of law for one person, however much of an arse they've been.
Unfortunately the UK does have an asymmetrical arrangement with the USA which means that, technically, he has to go across the Atlantic. He committed an offence (or even an offense) under US law, and the extradition treaty as signed and agreed means that the US can legitimately ask for him to stand trial in the US.
In the modern world you can't simply poke your tongue out and go 'ya boo' at agreements which both parties have signed and agreed, so poor Gary Nerd is stuffed, I'm afraid. The ultimate fault lies with governments of all stripes who have been so supine as to bend over since the 1940s and let the US royally roger them to maintain what they pathetically claim to be the 'special relationship' (as in 'special needs', I fear). As such, the the hands of justice in the UK are tied. It all makes for emotive headlines and 'why-o-why' stuff from the knee-jerk columnists, but that's the reality. And, to be honest, his frank admission of the crimes and his pledge to do it again makes even the asymmetrical nature of the extradition treaty irrelevant.
The 60 or 70 year sentence that has been touted is, I'm sure, just a bit of bravado and sabre-rattling on the part of the prosecutors, and I imagine that a first-round plea-bargain will see the poor bugger serving no more than a couple of years in a low-security unit. After all, McKinnon was originally offered a three-year term on a bargaining session in 2004 and told them to stuff it, and even though he is the architect of his own misfortunes, and Asperger's is not a grave enough condition to overturn the initial charge. It will doubtless (one hopes) play a major part in his mitigation when it comes to trial. I'm sure, giving his (subsequent diagnosis, a similar arrangement could and would be offered again. And not every US prison is like Alcatraz, Sing Sing or the Shawshank Redemption.
Of course, with hindsight, a far more sensible option would have been for the CPS to have brought a case against Gary Nerd right at the beginning and for the court to have given him community service (which is equivalent to a custodial sentence). That way the septics could have been told that he had already been tried and convicted, so the extradition was not applicable. But that's asking rather a lot of the CPS.
Still, it all makes good copy for the tabloids to launch one of their inchoate attacks of moral outrage.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Stu
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 05:54 AM

"You can't suspend the rule of law for one person, however much of an arse they've been. "

This is a joke, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 06:54 AM

So the law should be selective? Or maybe we should each have a 'get out of jail free' card we can lay any time we don't fancy taking the consequences of our actions?
I don't think anyone's argued that McKinnon isn't fit to plead. He seems perfectly lucid in this interview, even when he admits posting messages on US government systems; "I said US foreign policy was akin to government-sponsored terrorism and I believed 9/11 was an inside job. It was a political diatribe."
I haven't heard anyone saying that Abu Hamza shouldn't be extradited, even though he has genuine health problems.
It's the law, pure and simple. OK, it's a poorly-drafted law and one which should be changed, but the change has to come from the legislature.
Jack, you're the one 'avin' a larf!

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Stu
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 08:51 AM

The law is selective anyway - I seem to remember the US refusing to send the pilots over when request to face trail over the friendly fire incidents in the gulf. No coppers persecuted to the Menendez affair, Christ knows how many who never face charges for their violence and thuggery etc.

McKinnon is simply the target of vengeance by a US military caught with it's pants down. They didn't stop 9/11, they didn't stop a mentally ill man hacking into their most secret systems from his mum's bedroom. The person responsible for this fiasco is somewhere in the Pentagon or CIA or Capitol Hill and must be laughing their cock off to see this chap being offered up by a spineless, morally bankrupt British Government.

Asperger's is a difficult illness to diagnose and one I'm familiar with, as a family friend was diagnosed only after he had had a child with similar problems, then reasons for his behaviour in the past became clear. My best mate's brother in law has Asperger's and it's a complex and ill-understood condition and sending some with it into the lion's den of the US justice system is inhumane and shows a lack of compassion and empathy (the US state does kill mentally ill people remember - 60 since 1983). They simply will not understand what is happening, however eloquent and intelligent they might be (and many are).

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 03:02 PM

By way of comparison, here is a story of another asymmetry.

American wanted after multiple deaths

Do you think he will be extradited.

And here are two about the hacker

A piece about McKinnon
Editorial about him
And another
On the law

On of the pieces I read pointed out that the British end of the agreement is written in American spelling. Not good.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 12:14 AM

And where are those links?

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 02:45 AM

How odd. I used the blue clickifier. I'll go back and try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 02:57 AM

By way of comparison, here is a story of another asymmetry.

American wanted after multiple deaths
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/31/warren-anderson-arrest-warrant
Do you think he will be extradited.

And here are four about the hacker

A piece about McKinnon
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/01/gary-mckinnon-extradition-nightmare

And another
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/01/gary-mckinnon-extradition-hacking

Editorial about him
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jul/31/gary-mckinnon-hacking-extradition

On the law

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/aug/01/gary-mckinnon-extradition-hacker

The Guardian was quite exercised on the subject yesterday.

On of the pieces I read pointed out that the British end of the agreement is written in American spelling. Not good.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 02:59 AM

Got distracted. Here's the still missing one.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/01/gary-mckinnon-extradition-nightmare

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 03:23 AM

Thank you for those, Penny. They very clearly bear out what I said - McKinnon's extradition can't be stopped under the law as it stands. It's up to the legislature to change the law. That much was acknowledged by the Home Secretary, who said he would be breaking the law if he blocked the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 03:42 AM

>>they didn't stop a mentally ill man hacking into their most secret systems from his mum's bedroom<<

Just because soembody has Asbergers Syndrome, does not make them mentally ill.

Do have a good read of this.

http://www.bearsac.com/aspergers.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 04:54 AM

No, but it does make them mentally different. They may not perceive the world in the same way as other people, they may focus on one thing in exclusion of all others, they may not think things through and understand the possible effects of their actions.

They may almost certainly be deeply troubled by change and unexpected things happening, and McKinnon has been deliberately made to fear the American prison system by a threat that he should fry, and comments about rape. Is this really seen as a normal, allowed part of punishment, and is nothing done about it, so that officers of the law can use it as a threat? Or be dramatised as using it as a threat, without protest from the authorities?

I'm sure things happen that are not good in our own prison system, but they are not usually advertised by the staff. (And I know there has been a nasty story about fight clubs on the IOW today, but I'll wait to hear what the authorities have to say before comment.)

I cannot understand why our government agreed to that treaty. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, or there is no sauce at all, I feel.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 06:13 AM

I personally think that this person should have been protected and definately not allowed to be extradited.

How much of what he did, was related purely to a deep obsession?

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 07:39 AM

I can only say that I am ashamed that the US Government pressed both this system of extradition and that the US Courts will be so unsympathetic (and I know they will be) towards this young man.

There are hundreds, (thousands) in US corrections (I use the term loosely) institutions because there is no care or responsibility taken for people with mental disability accept in the most extraordinary/ extreme cases. And that determination of mental liability is a State by State decision.

Disgusting.

Is there a petition for going in this young man's favour? Or better, one to get the UK to rethink its extradition agreement with the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Stu
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 10:00 AM

"Is there a petition for going in this young man's favour?"

There's no point in a petition as the disquiet about this man's extradition is virtually unanimous regardless of the rights or wrongs. The government is simply ignoring public opinion (again) and sending the chap over. I can't help feeling if the goes another corner will have been turned in the steadily deteriorating relationship between politicians and the people they should be serving.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 10:43 AM

VirginiaTam said, in part:

There are hundreds, (thousands) in US corrections (I use the term loosely) institutions because there is no care or responsibility taken for people with mental disability accept in the most extraordinary/ extreme cases. And that determination of mental liability is a State by State decision.

Not so. He is accused and prosecuted under federal statute(s), by federal prosecutors. If he goes to prison, it will be under a sentence by a US District Court, in a federal prison. The federal prison system has first rate medical/psychological facilities, and any determination is a federal one, not a state decision.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 10:51 AM

VT, in McKinnon's interview he made mention of the fact that there is a website on his behalf- it's 'freeGary.org.uk'.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 11:34 AM

The government isn't ignoring public opinion. Would that life was a simple as some people wish. In the UK there is a separation between the executive and the judiciary. Once a law is passed, the people who implement it are the judiciary and the executive has no say in its execution (with the exception of the Home-Secretary's powers to vary sentences once a conviction has been made).
That's why the Home Secretary said today that he had no power to stop the extradition, and that if he attempted to block it he would be acting illegally.
Yes, the law is probably faulty - and the CPS should have acted sooner to try McKinnon in the UK - as other hackers have been - but it can't be changed without the consent of Parliament.
Cameron, for all his grandstanding, knows this full well, which is why his stance is particularly hypocritical.
I don't think any politician of any stripe wants to see McKinnon hung out to dry, but the matter is out of their hands.
The Daily Mail - no friend of the Government - has written:
In her letter to Mrs Sharp [McKinnon's mother], Mrs Brown said 'that there are a number of people at Downing Street who are committed to following the case and providing what assistance they can'.
However Government sources said last night that while the Prime Minister 'understood the family's concerns', it would be 'difficult to intervene in the legal process'.

And, although the law apparently unfair in that the US does not have to present a prima facie case to justify extradition, McKinnon's particular predicament is an inappropriate one with which to argue the point. He has openly admitted what he did so there is no question of ambiguity or weak evidence - the man himself has said he what he did and, when arrested and questioned, said he would do it again. One of the messages he left on a US system, he admits, read: 'U.S. foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these days ... It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand-down on September 11 last year... I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels.'
Asperger's notwithstanding, the man has done himself no favours at all. Naivete, foolishness, vainglory or even arrant stupidity are no defence in law.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 12:47 PM

From the US Bureau of Justice Statistics site

In 2007, over 7.3 million people were on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole at yearend -- 3.2% of all U.S. adult residents or 1 in every 31 adults.

State and federal prison authorities had jurisdiction over 1,610,584 prisoners at midyear 2008: 1,409,442 in state jurisdiction and 201,142 in federal jurisdiction. (That's actually in prison)

Local jails held 785,556 persons awaiting trial or serving a sentence at midyear 2008. An additional 72,852 persons under jail supervision were serving their sentence in the community.

Those statistics are pretty damning.

Since many federal prisons are over crowded the US Government buys places in State prisons which are only too happy to sell beds in their own already overcrowded facilities.

The whole system is rotten with corruption from top to bottom.

Convicts and their families pay unfairly for this incarceration too. Check out how much phone calls from prisoners to family members. When Virginia prison inmates call home, their families pay almost $3 for just one minute of talk time. Multiply this by one half hour weekend call to family who lives too far away to visit. It is not in Virginia. See this about Masachusettes inmates phone charges to families

Many prisons work with a supplier who provides a catalogue from which inmates can purchase goods. But cost of items (both necessary and not) toothpaste, underclothing/socks, books, music, electronics, art supplies is ludicrously inflated compared to what the free citizen can purchase.   

Here is a bit more from a another site about Pennsylvania which has the highest proportion of Federal prisons in the North east US.

U.S. Prison Labor

While U.S. politicians criticize China for their use of prison labor, U.S. federal and state prisons have been using prison labor for some time. Even companies like Microsoft have used prison labor. Many states have furniture made for their state institutions (including public universities) in their state prisons. Prison factories compete with jobs on the "outside," deny worker rights and provide cheap labor to private corporations.
Toxic Computer Recycling Operations Enter U.S. Prison Labor Factories
One computer monitor can contain 4-6 pounds of lead. Do we really want these toxic, hazardous jobs to be held by people who have no rights to unionize or protest dangerous working conditions? If we want prisoners to be able to be rehabilitated, why enable them to be brain damaged by exposing themselves to toxic metals like lead?

The diet is atrocious in many institutions as is the medical and dental care. Many prisoners are released with serious medical conditions because the diet is so poor. And this alarming report about the correlation between poor diet and tuberculosis in prisons.

All persons deprived of their liberty shall be treated with humanity and with
respect for the inherent dignity of the human person."
-Article 10 (1), International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

This is not happening. Don't tell me federal prisons are better than state facilities. They are all inhuman and something to be ashamed of.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 04:07 PM

A great many of the people in prison in the US, VT, are there on drug convictions. Until we develop a more enlightened approach to 'recreational' drug use, that is not likely to change.

But I think you are off base in citing phone call charges. Those rates are not set by the penitentiary but are because of the pen's policy of requiring that only collect calls can be made (Can you imagine the mess otherwise?).

Have you made or received a collect call recently? Pricey.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 04:40 PM

Ebbie

I had a sibling in prison with drug use/possession conviction. I am not off base with the phone charges, at least not in Virginia.

The charges were higher for families of inmates because the inmates are forced to use the provider the prison contracts with, in this case verizon.

I made a few collect calls to my mom from where I lived in Charlottesville Va to her home in south east Va., which did not cost anything like the calls she had to pay for from my brother who was in a prison only a 20 minute drive away from where she lived.

What the prison gets out of contracting with these companies and permitting these rates, I don't know. But it is not right, especially when inmates need to stay connected with loved ones as part of their rehabilitation.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 05:13 PM

VT, I am going by what charges my sister accrued when her son (not in prison but from a pay phone) called her collect from Colorado- according to her bill they talked for six minutes and the charge was $30.00.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: pdq
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 05:29 PM

The majority of inmates in the Federal Prison System committed violent crimes, as defined here:

Violent Crimes

A violent crime is any criminal offense, which involves the use of, or even the threat of force or violence. Violent crime is a broad legal category that encompasses a number of criminal offences.

The United States Department of Justice divides violent crime into five categories:
*        murder
*        rape or other sexual assault
*        robbery
*        aggravated assault
*        and simple assault

A violent crime can involve an act whereby violence is the objective (as in murder) or it may be a means to an end (as in robbery). A violent crime may or may not involve the threat or use of a weapon.

According to national statistics, the incidence of violent crime has decreased by as much as fifty percent since the early 1990s. Twenty-two people for every thousand were the victims of a violent crime in 2003, compared to fifty-one victims for every thousand Americans in 1994. The federal government estimates that approximately 1.8 million serious violent crime cases were committed in 2003 alone. In all categories of violent crime except for rape, males are the victims and the offenders more often than females are.

Assault is the most common type of violent crime that is committed in the United States. Assault can have varying levels of severity depending on the specific facts of a case. By definition, the violent crime of assault is the intentional threat or use of force or violence against another person. Actual physical contact is not required to constitute assault; the mere threat is sufficient. Assault violent crime charges can range from simple assault to aggravated assault. In less serious cases, assault may be charged as a misdemeanor, though it is often a felonious violent crime. Battery is a similar crime which involves actual physical contact with the victim.

Sexual assault is another category of violent crime that is perpetrated in our nation. Sexual assault is the violent crime of committing some non-consensual sexual act against a person. Rape is the crime of forcible or non-consensual sexual intercourse with another individual. Victims of rape and other sexual violent crime are least likely to encounter an armed offender.

Victims of robbery are the most likely to face an armed offender. Perpetrators of robbery are in possession of a weapon more than fifty percent of the time they commit this violent crime. The possession of a weapon during the commission of a violent crime will often enhance the penalties the defendant will later face. Statistics show that approximately one in four violent crime offenders use a firearm to carry out their crime.

If a person has been convicted of a violent felony crime, they are typically prohibited from possessing a weapon. If they are involved in a subsequent weapons or violent crime after felony conviction they may be charged with the crime of carrying a concealed weapon (CCW) or felony firearm offenses . Each state has their created unique laws about these offenses.

Homicide is a serious violent crime which has the most complex classification in the criminal system. For example, homicide charges can be assigned degrees based on the severity of the offense. The crimes of murder, justifiable homicide, and manslaughter are some of the common types of homicide-related violent crime.

When a person is charged with a felonious violent crime, they face incarceration, fines, probation, restitution, community service, and other penalties. For more serious violent crime, such as a capital offense, the defendant may even face death. In most cases the defendant in a violent crime case has the right to a legal defense. The help of a professional attorney is crucial for any person who has been charged of a violent offense. Contact a qualified and experienced attorney in your area who can evaluate your case to determine how best to protect and maximize your legal rights.

Related Violent Crime News 
March 12, 2007 - Study: Big-City Murder Up 10% Since 2004 

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 05:37 PM

That's a good point PDQ

In the Federal prisons are the really hardened criminals and that is where this poor young man will likely end up.

Really really is fekked up.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 05:40 PM

oops sorry Ebbie

Yeah some of the pay phones are criminal. You have to look out for the bad ones, usually set up just off interstates at the gas stations and fast food places. Taking advantage of people who have vehicle break downs most of the time.

Gotta love that free enterprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: pdq
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 05:48 PM

My post was just to put a fact or two out on the table. It was not intended to give my opinion on this issue.

I believe that about 1 in 5 Federal inmates is there do to drug charges. However, they may also be convicted of other crimes, and they may be habitual offenders. I believe the average pot bust to get you in Federal Prison is bout 70-80 pounds. Please don't anybody claim that roaching gets you into the pen. It don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 06:05 PM

I didn't see anyone claim that pot was the 'drug' that puts people into prison. Dealing - whether cocaine or meth or heroin - most definitely will.

However, I don't know about federal prisons versus state-run pens.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Alice
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 06:07 PM

Asperger's Syndrome is not a mental illness.
I haven't read this entire thread, but I'm probably not the only one to post that.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 06:09 PM

Much of which may now be irrelevant to McKinnon, as Harriet Harman has now said the UK Government will press for him to serve his sentence in the UK if given a custodial sentence by the US court.
Hmm; welcome to Fraggle Rock.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 07:39 PM

Serving any sentence given in the UK instead of US seems a reasonable way to mitigate the sentence to a degree, and any perceived injustice due to the treaty imbalance to a degree. I'd buy it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 07:58 PM

As I said way above, the biggest crime here is the skewed (indeed, one might say "colonialist") nature of the treaty unwisely accepted by the poodle B. Liar. The UK government should denounce it.

I have, however, no faith whatsoever that even under the new regime there is any hope of a fair trial in the USA. There is probably little hope there that any custodial time will be spent under humane conditions - to the extent that I think there might be a case that many custodial sentences in the US as they now stand could be argued to be "cruel and unusual punishment".

My anecdotal understanding however is that there are a numebr of eminent legal theorists who argue that Alan Johnson has power under law to refuse to extradite in certain cases, and that this is one that could well fall within the permitted range. A government that can magic up a legal opinion that the decision to invade Iraq was lawful can certainly magic up one to say that this strange young man should not be extradited.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 08:09 PM

"I have, however, no faith whatsoever that even under the new regime there is any hope of a fair trial in the USA. There is probably little hope there that any custodial time will be spent under humane conditions - to the extent that I think there might be a case that many custodial sentences in the US as they now stand could be argued to be "cruel and unusual punishment". Richard Bridge

May I suggest that your opinion is less than credible?

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Alice
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 08:21 PM

I think people have seen too many Hollywood movies about prison to form their opinions.

So, I'm getting the impression that people think someone who hacks into a military defense system did nothing wrong. I dated a guy with Asperger's syndrome (high intelligence is part of Asperger's) it's no excuse for breaking the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Alice
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 08:56 PM

From "Everything A Hacker Needs To Know About Getting Busted By The Feds" (just Google it)

"The lowest level facility is called a minimum, a camp, or FPC. Generally speaking, you will find first time, non-violent offenders with less than 10 year sentences there. Camps have no fences. Your work assignment at a camp is usually off the prison grounds at a nearby military base. Other times camps operate as support for other nearby prisons."

from wired.com news:
"He [McKinnon] faces anywhere from six months to six-and-a-half years in prison under federal sentencing guidelines, depending on how much damage he caused, if any, and whether or not he accepts responsibility."

It is not 70 or 80 years as some UK media have reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 09:27 PM

The US prosecutors have suggested the 70 or 80 years. Perhaps they know more than wired.com?

They also floated the idea that McKinnon might find conditions err - (well, just read above, OK?)

As to local conditions - healthcare, dental care, food etc -
don't bother with films, read the facts above.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 09:34 PM

How are things in Dannemora? Oh, that's New York. And it's a state prison.
I presume he likely would be incarcerated in Massachusetts so it might be Devens Low Security. They have a camp there. I presume his computer use would be supervised.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Alice
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 09:49 PM

Some media people must have assumed that because their are 7 counts and each has a maximum sentence of 10 years that it means 70 years. That is NOT how sentencing would be calculated.

from "EVERYTHING A HACKER NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT GETTING BUSTED BY THE FEDS" (written by a hacker who went to prison)

II. YOUR SENTENCE WILL BE BASED ON THE TOTAL MONETARY LOSS
The Feds use a sentencing table to calculate your sentence. It's simple; More Money = More Time. It doesn't matter if you tried to break in 10 times or 10,000 times. Each one could be a count but it's the loss that matters. And an unsuccessful attempt is treated the same as a completed crime. It also doesn't matter if you tried to break into one company's computer or 10. The government will quite simply add all of the estimated loss figures up, and then refer to the sentencing table.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 10:00 PM

I would guess, Richard Bridge, that you are not aware that on occasion a prison system will try to release a chronically ill prisoner early so that they will not have to spend more money on him or her. Medical care is free to the prisoner. By law.

I realise that you are a barrister(?)/lawyer but I agree with Alice that you have gotten most of your information about USA prisons from the movies or from highly biased sources. Usually foreign, no doubt, and most likely they too got their information from the movies.

Don't believe everything you read and only half of what you see.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 02:51 AM

Only critical care is free to the prisoner and again this is a State by State thing.

inmates have to pay for asprin if they have toothache and wait until dentist will or can see them. They only visit so many days a month. Then a tooth is more likely to be pulled than saved, because it is cheaper to remove that treat.

That is a microcosm of what happened to my brother.

He went in thin and with boundless energy. Came out overweight, near diabetic and lethargic. Since then he has been able to shift most of the weight and regain some energy. But he is in constant back pain from injuries he sustained in a prison van accident received when he was on work release.
The state did not treat his injuries correctly, penalised him by adding more time to his sentence for not working after the accident, even though medical records and xrays showed that he had substantial injuries (lumbar disc injury and 2 cracked ribs). When he was released he immediately got addicted to pain killers and alcohol. My brother, the silly sod had a lawyer willing to take up case against the state, but he refused.

He is clean now but still in great pain, which affects his ability to work normal hours. He is an engine mechanic.

The system stinks.

and by the way... Asperger's is a medically defined mental disability. I am not saying that this young man should not be held accountable. Only that his condition should be considered. I am also saying that the agreement between the US and the UK is rotten and onesided and unfair. And I am American.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 03:34 AM

Well that saves me dealing with and setting out the actual facts. Point made. Well said VT.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 06:02 AM

PDQ said The majority of inmates in the Federal Prison System committed violent crimes. But it might have been safer to say The majority of inmates in the Federal Prison System have been convicted of violent crimes. America's judicial system is as prone as any other - and probably more so than most - to glaring mistakes. It is also selective, as evidenced by the disproportionate percentage of blacks and mentally ill who are incarcerated.

I'm pressed for time (or I'm being lazy...) but I wonder if Gervase or Richard or someone knows what the circs were when a former UK home secretary (Jack Straw) intervened in the Pinochet extradition case?

If McKinnon is to be tried in the US we must at least hope that he will be represented by a British lawyer of the calibre of, say, Clive Stafford Smith, who will be more than capable of exposing the imbecilic, paranoid and vindictive US stance to worldwide ridicule. That will ensure that, Obama's election notwithstanding, America's reputation stays where it has been ever since it squandered the goodwill that flowed its way from most corners of the earth after 911.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 07:46 AM

Not all UK barristers automatically have rights of audience in the US courts, and the rules vary from state to state.

I was thinking that Sir Sydney Kentridge QC would be good. I am concerned that using Clive Stafford Smith would put the backs of the US court system up, but no-one disses Kentridge. I once had the privilege of preparing some notes for him and instructions (on a Biko-related matter) and seeing my notes pretty well regurgitated as his opinion for which he charged loads, but I was too thrilled that he hardly changed anything to kvetch about the bill.

Pinochet was extremely good at faking illness, and was not going to the USA so that Straw was not handicapped by the skewed UK/US extradition treaty in saving Pinochet's neck. Personally I think that saving Pinochet was a put-up-job. If only Lenny Hoffman had not screwed it up!

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 08:39 AM

There is one difference between American and Chinese prisons. To get into the former one usually has to do something antisocial (or hack into their computers). To get into the latter it's only necessary to try to escape from Tibet or complain about the massacre in Tiananmen Square.
   Getting back to the thread, the Mail on Saturday said that the courts had ruled that they didn't have the power to stop the extradition, but the Home Secretary did. The Home Secretary said that he couldn't change a decision made by the courts so he was going to do nothing.
   As I wrote in a letter to my M.P., surely if what he did was illegal in Britain, where he did what he did, that is where he should be prosecuted. Apparently it is and he could be.
   As stated above, one way in which Asperger's syndrome manifests itself is that the sufferer is inable to foresee the consequences of their actions. His intelligence would not necessarily stop him from doing something risky.
As for the often-cited timing of his actions, it's not as if it was at the time of something like Pearl Harbour or the Cuban missile crisis, when one might expect military computers to be vitally important. It was after the U.S. had been attacked by a couple of dozen people armed with penknives, and it would probably be the CIA or FBI who would know about their organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: pdq
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 09:20 AM

...another crime category defined:


"...white-collar crime should be defined by the type of offense committed i.e., fraud, counterfeiting, forgery, embezzlement, bribery, larceny, price fixing, racketeering, computer fraud, obstruction of justice, and perjury. Mixed in with these offenses is the increasingly popular securities fraud as typified by the recent cases of Bernard Madoff and New Jersey fund manager James Nicholson. Madoff allegedly confessed to his employees that he perpetuated a massive fraud scheme which could cost investors an unbelievable amount in excess of $50 billion. Forty-two year old James Nicholson is accused of defrauding his investors of as much as $900 million since 2004...

In the years 1997 through 1999, white-collar crime accounted for less than 4.0 percent of the incidents reported to the FBI. The majority of those offenses were frauds, counterfeiting, and forgery...of those reported only 21% made it into the hands of a law enforcement agency."


{shortened by me}

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 09:58 AM

VirginiaTam said:


inmates have to pay for asprin if they have toothache and wait until dentist will or can see them. They only visit so many days a month. Then a tooth is more likely to be pulled than saved, because it is cheaper to remove that treat.

That is a microcosm of what happened to my brother.

You indicate it was a state prison system, not federal, where he's almost surely bound. What state?

The federal system has good medical care, in contrast to some state systems.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 10:11 AM

In the Federal prisons are the really hardened criminals and that is where this poor young man will likely end up.

A gross oversimplification. The implication of that statement is that all or most of the really hardened criminals are in the federal system.   Or that, conversely, all or most of the inmates in the federal system are really hardened criminals. You merely make the assertion, but on what basis we know not.

Not all prisons are equal--not even within the same prison system. The federal system has facilities at all levels from what amounts to boarding houses in metropolitan areas up to the real hard-time maximum security fortresses.

As mentioned by someone in this thread, McKinnon is likely to be placed in a minimum to no security camp, that absolutely would not have the "really hardened criminals".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:37 AM

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime

People who are so jubilant in their eagerness to show how bad, how really awful, the US prison system is might want to stop a moment and ask themselves what kind of system they would consider passable. I don't think there is an workably ideal way to remove a person from society.

I would be most interested in discovering how other countries run their penal systems. I would hope and expect that the UK has changed since the Dickens days. I too have seen movies. :)

I have been fortunate enough not to have a relative or friend incarcerated, but I do have a number of friends who have worked, or still do work in the prison system. A number of bad apples no doubt find their way into positions of power - just as some get into the police forces or in the military - but all four of my friends who work in the system are gentle, peaceful people. (All but one of them is a musician, by the way.)

Their glasses are not rose-colored because they've 'seen it all' but they are also very aware that sometimes it's just the luck of the draw that brings a person in. On the other hand, they are pragmatic- they'll work with the inmate if the inmate works within the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 12:18 PM

It does seem a complete hypocrisy that the US can have a surveillance base in the UK at Menwith Hill that can hack into the emails or mobile phone calls of anyone in this country without being prosecuted. Indeed, they have the protection of the UK police who have to guard the place.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 12:24 PM

Mr McKinnon should be congratulated by the people of the US for exposing u a parcel of incompetent goons, well done Mac.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 12:27 PM

pah

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Stu
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 12:38 PM

"I would hope and expect that the UK has changed since the Dickens days. I too have seen movies. :)

Since many of the prisons still in use date from Victorian times and are dirty, drug-ridden, overcrowded and described by Senior Staff as 'hell holes', if you're going only on the movies it might give you some idea of what they are like.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 03:01 PM

Sentences in the U. S. and elsewhere seem relatively light, unless money was stolen.
One ended with a job for the F. B. I. and one with a job in cyber security

David Smith, author of the Melissa Worm which hit over 300 companies including Microsoft, Intel and Lucent, bargained down to 20 months, and then went to work for the FBI to find new viruses and their authors.
Robert Morris, the first to be prosecuted under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, was sentences to probation, community service, and a fine of $10,000.

J. J. Ancheta, who infiltrated Nayy Files and caused damage, was ordered to pay the U. S. Navy $15,000, and surrender $60,000 proceeds from his crimes, was sentenced to 5 years.

Another U. S. hacker, who entered U. S. Military files, a repeated offender, had several prosecutions and was sentenced to 5 1/5 years.

Brian Salcedo, who hacked a chain of hardware stores and stole customers credit card information, was sentenced to nine years in a U. S. District Court.

Gregory Evans, so-called "No. 1 hacker," has a consulting company and teaches cyber security at Appalachian Technical College. He never stole money.

Owen Walker of New Zealand, a teenager who infiltrated some 1.3 million computers and aided a gang to skim from bank accounts, is now a cyber security consultant with a telecommunications company in New Zealand.
Another New Zealander, age 23, Thomasz Grygoruk, who scammed from bank accounts, has been jailed for three years. The FBI helped with the investigation.

Some of this reminds me of the 1950s, although not the same thing. Several of the leaders of groups ended up with good jobs, including "Denny the Red" who led riots and fought the police in Paris; he was recognized as a natural leader, and was hired and put in executive training by Shell.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 03:12 PM

Health Care in Prison

Medical Care in Federal Prison: Pathetic, Appalling, and Inexcusable!

Health Care in the Federal Bureau of Prisons: Fact or Fiction

The Sad State Of Medical Care In Federal Prison!

Many in U.S. Prisons Lack Good Health Care

Officials Mistreat Handicapped Man

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Alice
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 03:16 PM

As an example, here is one of the federal prison camps where computer hackers have been sentenced. Taft Correctional Institution

There are no fences around the camp, but it is in the desert and there are security cameras.

Photos and article here:

Taft Correctional Institution Satellite Camp in California

quote from article:
"...When not receiving visitors in the main building, inmates either sit around in the shade, many chain smoking to kill time, or walking aimlessly around the grassy portion of the yard.

During the summer when temperatures often exceed 110 in the shade and humidity is overwhelming because of irrigation from nearby farms, many prisoners retreat to their air conditioned dorms to spend the hottest portion of the day reading, napping, or watching TV. Otherwise, there's a small library.

Some inmates are allowed to volunteer to outside agencies and organizations in the community. The inmates are not paid for this outside work, its done strictly on a voluntary basis. These inmates are escorted by staff or specially trained people from the community when outside the facility. As a part of this program, Camp inmates assisted in the building of three homes for Habitat for Humanity.

Another program involving inmates is Striving Toward A New Direction (STAND). This program brings at-risk youth to the Satellite Camp for inmate presentations about how their choices resulted in their incarceration. ..."

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: GUEST,folk1e
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 03:17 PM

Isn't amazing what a little embarrasment in a goverment office can achieve?
This is diametrically opposed to the things they should be embarrasssed about! This was post 9/11 and security (LOL) was allegidly tightened!

Just as a side issue ......... issn't it classed as entrapment if you leave your front door open and encourage burgulars? If the said burgulars injure themselves whilst in your house are you not liable?
If these are examples of different laws in different states can Gary McKinnon choose which state his case is heard in?

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 03:17 PM

Ebbie, one of the most disturbing aspects of the US prisons system is that it is so big - easily the biggest, pro-rata, in the developed world, and possibly the biggest anywhere. In effect it is a wall between the rich and the poor. (The proportion of a population in prison is closely related to the gap between rich and poor, and nowhere is the gap wider than in the US.)

It is a source of despair for me that since 1979, with only one or two blips against the trend, the UK has been desperately trying to catch up with the US, in terms of both the proportion of population in prison and in the rich-poor divide, seemingly oblivious to the fact that many other countries achieve and maintain stability much less wastefully. Thus between 1979 and 1999 the divide grew more rapidly in the UK than in any developed nation except New Zealand (according to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation). And guess what? We're building more prisons....

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Alice
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 04:32 PM

The issue of the poor/rich divide, as troubling as it is, is not the point in this case.

If someone broke into your house and let's say, damaged your musical instruments, would you say, "Oh, well, guess it's my fault for not having better security, just let him go."

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 04:38 PM

VT, your links are less than enlightening, imo

The first one is anecdotal, with no documentation.

#2 and #3 are by the same man, and the main discussion pertains to death sentencing; it glides over prison health care, making assertions but giving no particulars and with no documentation.

#4 disputes the Commissioner'z claim that prison health care is better than what prisoners enjoyed 'outside', saying that he had talked with many "white collar inmates" who had had better health care before they went to prison. (Quite possibly these white collar criminals had previously had health insurance. Eb)

The last one is anecdotal and creates more questions than it purports to answer. By the way, what is the "CCR" that her father pleaded guilty to in order to save the writer's sister from being tried? The closest I could come to it was 'Citizen Crime Report'.

By the way, Q, I'm shocked - you mean those hackers were not sentenced to death, as some Mudcatters would have it? I'm just shocked. (Thanks for that research)

I suspect that some of the posters who think that McKinnon's actions were of so little consequence are the same people who think of the creators of internet worms and viruses as being kind of funny and cute. I disagree mightily with that view.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Alice
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 04:44 PM

There are many reasons to be concerned about crime, gangs, drug use, inequality, racism, prison systems, etc., but to hold up this hacker as a martyr is, in my opinion, a disservice to the people who REALLY are innocent or unjustly imprisoned. He's admitted to what he has done and seems to have no remorse for his actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: pdq
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 05:46 PM

Taft Correctional Facility

"There are no fences around the camp, but it is in the desert and there are security cameras."

Actually, Taft is in California's great Central Valley, the largest and most productive agricultural region in the world.

"During the summer when temperatures often exceed 110 in the shade and humidity is overwhelming because of irrigation from nearby farms, many prisoners retreat to their air conditioned dorms to spend the hottest portion of the day reading, napping, or watching TV."

Well, since the average temperature in July and August is in the low-to-mid 90s, I think this is an exageration.

Despite the farming and irrigation, humidity is quite low. Much less oppressive than St. Louis or most of the South.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 06:21 PM

Taft- Average high on July 25 is 96 F; 100s not unusual. Late June to begining of September, the average high is 90 F or above.

The humidity is low away from the irrigated fields, but I would class the climate as too hot for the devil.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 06:23 PM

GUEST,Folk le asked:

issn't it classed as entrapment if you leave your front door open and encourage burgulars?

A firm, unequivocal yes and no!

Start with the fact that there is nothing wrong with entrapment as such, contrary to popular opinion! The world is full of traps. Police and sometimes business employers lay traps from time to time, and they are well within both their rights and ethics and legality if the circumstances are right.

It's only illegal, and a defense to a charge of burglary, when police, say, purposely set things up to suggest or lure into committing a crime someone who would not have done such an illegal or wrongful act if the lure of the trap and the suggestion to take it were not dangled under their nose. Note the word "purposely".

If a householder negligently leaves a house unlocked and an innocent teenager, we'll say, realizes there's no lock and burglarizes the house, then I suppose you could say he's fallen into a trap, but it's not illegal entrapment. Even if the householder purposely was tempting someone he thought to be dishonest, makes no difference if the householder is not an agent of the state.   

What it amounts to is that agents of the state (the police or a "cooperating individual" at the instance of the police) may not affirmatively lure someone into doing a criminal act and then have the state complain of the thief's action.   

If the police entrap someone into a doing a drug deal, it may be perfectly legal to charge that dealer, but then again it may not. Does his known history and actions known to the police show that he was already interested in acting as a go-between, a drug broker if you will, just waiting for the opportunity? If the police agent's trap is set up so that the would-be dealer initiates the deal, it's legal entrapment. Does the state have probable cause to lay the trap?

You (or the lawyer for that defendant at trial) may ask, "But who is to decide whether there was the preexisting desire in the defendant's mind?" And the answer is, "The fact-finder at trial, the judge or jury as the case may be," based not on speculation but on facts shown to have been known to the police beforehand. That's part of the state's burden of proof.   

But merely providing an opportunity, (whether consciously or negligently, as in your question), for an aspiring criminal to sneak into an unlocked house and steal is not illegal entrapment.

And one more comment: There may well be severe criticism justified against a negligent or even malevolent householder as in your question, but if he's not an agent of the state it's not a defense.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Alice
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 07:01 PM

The article about Taft that I linked and quoted earlier, CLICK HERE
also mentions that Tommy Chong (of Cheech and Chong) was an inmate at Taft. Chong wrote a book about it, called The I Chong, Meditations from the Joint - the link is in the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: GUEST,folk1e
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 04:44 PM

OK .... I will concede the "entrapment" arguement!
However is it illegal to merely look where you are not ment to be, even if the door was open (or blank security paswords used?
I am, however certain it is illegal to put a false claim for damages! As per the interview the amounts for damage all appear to be the minimum to be classified as criminal damage (I may be using the wrong legal term here)

I think it looks more like blame displacement by government officials than active criminal damage/ terorism!
Personaly I would be happier if the (US)government were to acnowlege the real damage done to computers worldwide originating frome one small area of America and take apropriate action!

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 05:01 PM

"real damage done to computers worldwide....from one small area...." Please elucidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 05:03 PM

Yeah. Amplify.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: meself
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 05:44 PM

Elaborate.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 10:38 AM

FOLK, LE asked:

However is it illegal to merely look where you are not ment to be, even if the door was open (or blank security paswords used?

You have, of course, blindly taken as true McKinnon's statement about "no security". Personally, I'd want to hear the other side of that, and preferably see/hear some evidence on one or the other side.

Stated as generally as you asked it, probably not. For instance, if the householder left a door wide open and you looked into his living room, I think that's not criminal. If you walked in the door and looked around, though, you would be trespassing at the very least. And if you, say, opened a drawer (subdirectory, file folder) to see what was in it, that's another level of intrusion.

BUT, I'm sure in this scenario there is/are specific statutes about unauthorized entry into ANYONE'S computer (yours and mine), let alone governmental facilities.

You and some others here seem to be taking as true the allegation interpretation or allegation that's most antiestablishment possible, or in some cases most antiAmerican possible.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: DougR
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 01:13 PM

I find it interesting that so many posters on this thread side with the hacker.

Dave Hansen: A comment on your earlier thread, when you suggest that the crime happened a long time ago, the dirty deed was done, and cannot be undone. So, if I robbed a bank of a million dollars in 1970, spent all the money by 2000 and the FBI discovers in 2009 that I committed the robbery, I should be not be arrested?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 01:23 PM

Many are (rightly IMHO) concerned at US attempts unilaterally to extend its jurisdiction and enforcement processes into other sovereign states. For example the Southern district of New York asserts an international copyright jurisdiction, and South Texas an international patent jurisdiction, and US assertion of the ability to claim multiple damages (a creation of US statute and rare elsewhere) and enforce them in other jurisdictions where they are contrary to established rule of law ahve raised many hackles.

The extradition treaty in point here is one sided and unjust.

If the US were not concerned to obtain a procedural advantage they could have co-operated with UK authorities to prosecute here - but nothing would do but to take this technically ill young man to a foreign place and for the prosecutors to threaten him with unpleasant consequences.

The US, by way of contrast, has consistently refused to recognise the jurisdiction of the International War Crimes tribunal - preferring to protect its own from any foreign prosecution.

The US collects (for its composers) PRS fees collected by the PRS from what in the USA would be exempted from similar fees as being "small establishments".

The US took a WTO dispute out against the UK when the UK tried to honour its obligations to its former colonies by protecting the smaller sterling bananas from (IMHO) unfair competition from dollar bananas.

Is it much wonder that many of us outside the USA view the USA with some suspicion?

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: folk1e
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 10:19 AM

Q, Ebbie and Meeself .... I am not ignoring you (just short on time now) ... A very large number of spyware/ malware has been found to originate from 2 addresses (producing porn) in the good old USA! I will, if you wish look up the facts for you later, but this was widely published in the press at the time!

D.O. Yes I appear to take the side of one of my countrymen being threatened with, what I believe to be unfair extradition! Wouldn't most of you "over the pond" do the same for one of your boys?
Some facts of what he is accused of or even evidence would go a long way to changing my attitude on this though!

I guess you could point to my cynicism of most governments to do what is right and not what is most expedient at the time!

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 12:08 PM

FOLK le said:

D.O. Yes I appear to take the side of one of my countrymen being threatened with, what I believe to be unfair extradition! Wouldn't most of you "over the pond" do the same for one of your boys?

No, I, for one, wouldn't. I believe in the correctness of the charging authorities of a friendly country extraditing an accused malefactor. If it were an American accused of the same crime(s) against England, I would be in favor of extradition. I don't see where there is any "unfair extradition" here.

Some facts of what he is accused of or even evidence would go a long way to changing my attitude on this though!

Evidence? He's confessed freely to the hack job, even bragged about it, for goodness sakes! Let alone whatever technical tracing or other means they indulged in to identify him.   Some details will come out later, I'm sure, although I can see where some technical details might be withheld in order not to further inform future potential hackers of the security and/or detection steps that can be taken.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 01:08 PM

When his plane lands, he should be given a proper American warm welcome, i. e., warm tar with a liberal admixture of feathers, followed by an escorted ride on a rail to a place of detention, the populace serenading with catcalls and lofting rotten tomatoes and eggs at his person, and the band loudly playing "We will hang Hacker Gary to a sour apple tree!". He may be spared the hangman, but that great old institution, the vigilance committee, may see that justice is not only done but seen to be done.

(This thread is getting tiresome)

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 07:49 PM

Q, if the man were Canadian and his actions occurred in Canada and affected only Canadians, would you say, Hey! Let the man go!

?

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 08:19 PM

No. I would have suggested incarceration in beautiful downtown Inuvik (the old town).

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 06:46 PM

What if his cell didn't have windows? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 07:55 PM

In Inuvik for much of the year, windows don't make no never mind.

Dark as a dungeon- yes it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: GUEST,folk1e
Date: 09 Aug 09 - 04:44 PM

Uncle DaveO .... the details I am particularly interested in are the ones about the actual physical damage he caused to systems! I would include wiping or even corruption of files in this.
I am also interested in the level of security employed to protect this "vital" information!

As I have said I do not expect to see any evidence of this, and that is the basis of me describing the extradition as unfair! I would think it unfair regardless of the nationalities involved, but I would expect a country like America to have a higher standard than some others, not lower!

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Aug 09 - 05:51 PM

Time's a wastin'! Rendition, not extradition!

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 10:12 AM

FOLK, le, it would be more meaningful, if that is your intention, to refer to "physical damage" as "hardware damage," and to other damage such as erasing or corrupting files as "software damage".

Then there might--and I say "might" because I can't conceptualize it clearly--be what might be called "operational damage". I don't assert that there was any such animal for sure, or even that there can be such; I'm merely trying to clarify concepts here.

Frankly, I would be surprised if there were actual hardware damage, although it is not beyond the realm of possibility. Certain operations in a computer can wreck hard drives, for instance.

In any case, your not knowing the details doesn't make either the prosecution or the extradition unfair. Police and prosecutors in any country I know of don't normally lay out everything they know or suspect in the public's eye. That's what trials are for, in an open society.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: folk1e
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 05:08 PM

As far as I understand it, the extradition is because a criminal offense has been alleged ie that he caused actual damage ($500? per hack?) to systems in the USA!

I think it unfair if the same level of proof is not needed for extradition eather way round. US has a history of forcing others to their way of thinking. It is expected that the hacker (if proved guilty)will face a lengthy jail term, whereas despite the UK coroners court demanding attendance of US servicemen to ascertain how some UK soldiers were killed they were shielded by the US!
The level of guilt was apparent to most due to cockpit communications between the two combat aircraft and their base being recorded!
It can't be just me that sees this disparity!

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 09:03 PM

The sooner hackers are taught that their actions will not be tolerated, the better. A good, stiff sentence is deserved by all.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 08:22 PM

Jusst reviving this thread to say that McKinnon has been granted another judicial review - this time to examine whether the British home secretary was justified in ignoring psychiatric evidence in allowing extradition to proceed.

So for the moment he is still safe from the very long arm of US justice. By the time the judicial review has run its course the Conservative Party will probably be in government, and that party is already oposed to McKinnon's extradition and committed to renegotiating the UK-US extradition treaty with a view to introducing some degree of reciprocity.

Here's an interesting take on Westminster's supine relationship with Washington: Longest ever game of pass the parcel

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker fights extradition to US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 07:28 AM

The heading on this thread really ought to be changed to something more accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 08:03 AM

The extradition treaty is a disgrace, and so is the inequity of the US court system. Bought justice, largely.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 10:42 AM

Well, weird or what?!!
The heading changed for McG's post, then reverted for Richard's!
Have we got a mischievous Elf, or does McG know the secret of title-change? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 02:50 PM

My mistake - I gave Joe a link to McG's post intending the entire thread to be renamed, but instead only the linked page got changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker fights extradition to US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:57 PM

You can always change the heading on your own post, as I've just done once again - but unless you do the default is the main heading, however misleading it may be, as in this case.

The trouble is, if the extradition does go ahead, which is only too likely, the existing thread heading will tend to reduce the chance of it being drawn to people's attention on the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 06:51 PM

""If it were an American accused of the same crime(s) against England, I would be in favor of extradition. I don't see where there is any "unfair extradition" here.""

You might well be in favour Dave, but, as I understand the situation, your government doesn't agree.

Isn't it true that extradition of a US citizen to Britain to answer charges would be refused?

If so, how can you claim that it is right for such a one sided view of justice to prevail?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker extradited to the US
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 06:57 PM

Oh.... I thought Joe had intervened exclusively on your behalf McG.

I have to disagree with you about the likelihood of McKinnon's extradition. I'd say he's off the hook now. Alan Johnson himself (UK home secretary) has obviously been fairly uncomfortable about the whole affair, and I would expect the JR to take account of the parliamentary and popular mood, notwithstanding that it must also take account of what parliament intended when this bizarre treaty was drafted.

But in any case the imminent change in government which is now almost inevitable will be enough to keep this rather sad individual safely on home turf. His own MP is odds on to become the justice minister in a Tory government; he and his party have opposed McKinnon's extradition all along (as has the UK's third party, which could hold sway in the event of a hung parliament), and the Tories are also committed to scrapping the treaty as presently framed.

On the whole, rather an unsatisfactory way for the UK to save face.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker to be extradited to the US
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 03:58 PM

Most people know what extradition is - the transfer of a person to another country for trial. But I wasn't quite sure exactly what the meaning of the word was. Who actually does the extradition - the country who wants the individual, or the country where the individual is located? Is extradition the request for transfer, the acceptance of the request, the entire process from request to transfer, or the transfer itself? Various news accounts give me the impression that many reporters are unsure of the meaning of the word. You'll find a number of definitions here (click), but I'm still not sure what the term means.

• If the US requests, has the person been extradited?
  
• If the UK agrees to the request, has he been extradited?
  
• If the UK refuses the request, is that extraditus interruptus?

And what is the person's status now?
I don't see this as a terrible thing, for the UK to send the man to the US to stand trial. Presumably, the man will get a fair trial - and he may well be acquitted. I think that in most cases, a nation should refuse to extradite only when the charges against an individual are blatantly unjust. I gather from the definitions I've seen that "extradition" isn't extradition until the transfer has been completed. Acknowledging the request from Peter K., I have changed the title to Hacker to be extradited to the US, which is a bit closer to accuracy.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker to be extradited to the US
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 06:55 PM

In what I'll call "intra" extraditions (intraditions?) from one State to another in the U.S. the "holding state" (where the defendant was picked up, ordinarily, or at least is being held) has jurisdiction of him. (S)he can and many times does contest extradition to the requesting/charging State. On the other hand, the accused may "waive extradition", thus consenting to be transferred to the charging jurisdiction without in-court formalities.

If the courts in the holding state (here, the UK) are not satisfied that there are appropriate legal grounds, they will not order that the prisoner be extradited to the charging State (here, the U.S.).   If they are so convinced, they will order extradition.

Therefore, Joe, it is the actual rendition or hand-off of the defendant to the charging jurisdiction that constitutes "extradition".

I'm not a lawyer, but that's my understanding.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker to be extradited to the US
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 08:39 PM

That's my understanding too Dave O. But maybe Richard Bridge will revisit the thread and provide a more authoritative view.

Extradition from one country to another is usually governed by bilateral agreements, and these are usually reciprocal. Where no treaty is in place there is usually no extradition, though one-off exceptions do occur. The problem with the US-UK treaty, Joe, is that it provides for extradition from the UK to the US in more circumstances than vice versa. The general opinion seems to be that in this particular case, the treaty would not require US-to-UK extradition if the alleged crime had been committed by an American in the US.

There is concern in the UK that the US authorities regard McKinnon's crime as far more serious than it has been regarded in the UK and that any sentence imposed might be disproportionate. I have seen it claimed that McKinnon could be jailed for anything up to 70 years. There is also concern that the US judicial system would make little allowance for his mental state (there is medical evidence, uncontested as far as I have seen, that he has Asperger's syndrome).

An acquittal is unlikely whether he is tried in the US or UK court, sincce McKinnon has admitted throughout that he hacked into the Pentagon system. He even left messages on the system admitting he had been prowling around, to warn that the system was vulnerable. But it is assumed on both sides of the Atlantic that he could expect a more severe sentence in the US than in the UK (where he committed the crime of course).

Thanks, Joe, for changing the title,

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker to be extradited to the US
From: Bert
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:14 AM

(where he committed the crime of course)

If he hacked into The Pentagon System then the crime was committed at The Pentagon.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker to be extradited to the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 05:04 AM

It is not my speciality but my understanding is that if the UK wants extradition of a US citizen it has to present prima facie evidence to the US authorities and that evidence may be challenged in a US court. Conversely, if the US wants a UK citizen they do not have to provide evidence of guilt, merely of charge, and that may not be challenged in a UK court.

I am not aware of their being any grounds other than medical for refusal by the UK of extradition to the US (so long as the alleged offence is an extraditable one).

In short, the US says to its poodle "Jump" and we ask "How High?". Many of us find this distasteful and indeed colonialist, rather as we do many other long-arm provisions of US law.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker to be extradited to the US
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 08:21 AM

In short, the US says to its poodle "Jump" and we ask "How High?". Many of us find this distasteful and indeed colonialist

Indeed - here's one who does? What can whichever spineless govt agreed to such provisions possibly have been thinking of!

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker to be extradited to the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 04:12 PM

Any criminal action committed by him was committed while he was in the UK. That's where any trial should take place, and if the UK authorities don't want a trial, because they know they couldn't get a conviction, that should be the end of the matter

Insofar as he exposed failings in the security of US government computer systems, he has done the US authorities an enormous favour. So it also caused embarrassment, and required them to spend money patching up the system? It will have served to make it harder for cyber-terrorists in the future, which is a lopt more important.

The ungrateful bastards should be thanking him, not pursuing him, very likely to his death.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker to be extradited to the US
From: Bert
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 05:29 PM

The laws against hackers and spammers are extremely lax. If someone sends me spam to my email address or hacks my computer, they are tying up MY computer and MY resources in MY house; I don't give a damn if they reside in Nigeria or The UK.

In my opinion all convictions should carry the penalty of making full restitution to each and every one of their victims. I have to waste time every few days running Spybot to keep my computer clean. They should catch the bastards and make them pay for all the time that they have wasted for everybody who has ever run a malware removal program.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker to be extradited to the US
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 06:51 AM

In this particular case, Bert, restitution for WHAT? The inconvenience of deleting a message pointing out that the Pentagon system is wide open to any over-enthusiastic pewter nerd operating from his bedroom? Or the cost of protecting the system from such people? (This might be hard to do without inconveniencing terrorists too.)

If you're after financial compensation for damaged reputation, I don't think the poor chap could afford to pay. He's made a laughing stock of the world's biggest military empire and you can't put a price on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker to be extradited to the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 08:40 AM

He should be awarded The Congressional Medal of Honour for services to US security, and some highly-paid computer boffins in the Pentagon should be awarded a large boot up the arse, straight out of the door and into the dole queue, for being so pathetically incompetent.
IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker to be extradited to the US
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 11:20 AM

Steamin' Willie has lots of friends Stateside and enjoys being over.

However.....

It is wrong that a civilised country allows it's citizens to be extradited to a Third World country where extremists have positions of power in the Judiciary.

Did you know, they can sentence a living person to be murdered by the state. Something we stopped doing in 1965.

No... Until the USA improves it's record on Human Rights, we should be protecting our citizens from their awful barbaric medieval "justice" system.

I know they don't want to murder this guy, but The NHS is the best place for his mental health issues, not meeting Bubbah and the sisters in the showers.

Subject: RE: BS: Hacker to be extradited to the US
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 11:55 AM

Very nicely put, Steamin' Willie.