BS: Poverty in the USA

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:18 AM

"And I did not say the fix is a redistribution of wealth."

That's right, Dickey. You have been very clear on that point. I don't have any problem at all understanding what you write. That is why I am still waiting for your fix that does not involve redistribution of wealth.

J

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 28 May 07 - 11:55 AM

"...but you are doing nothing to prevent others from being raped etc and ending up in the same situatuion and requiring even more mittigation."

I'm doing nothing in areas of prevention? I'd send you my resume, Dickey, but with 35 years (and counting) of both micro and macro practice, it takes awhile to get through.

I do confess, however, that I did not offer to go to the motel and beat up the manager or remove his hands and cojones. But according to your view of the root causes of poverty being bad values and bad choices, the root cause of not being poor must be good values and good choices. The manager, the Dad and the step-brother are/were financially comfortable. Your internal logic dictates that their values and choices are therefore good.

I do believe you have watched too many 'Ozzie and Harriet' reruns.

It also interesting to me that you assume that work with individuals is nothing but mitigatory.

Reality 101: People are people. People with resources are not morally superior to people without resources. People without resources are no more likely to make bad choices (when they have choices between good and bad choices) than are people with resources. The primary difference, when it does come down to making a poor choice when a good is available is this - resources protect people from the consequences of the bad choices they make. When your middle-class neighbor's kid gets in trouble for drugs, you may never know about it. And - that kid will probably get a deferred prosecution while Daddy sends him to rehab. 5 blocks over, on the other side of the tracks, the drug bust will be in the newspapaer and all names of participants will be published. That kid's father, who works hard cleaning the floors in your high-rise office building, won't have the money for a good lawyer or the resources for rehab. His kid will go to jail.

Reality 101: People without resources do not have the same array of choices as do people with resources. People without resources are much more likely to have to choice between the lesser of two evils.

Reality 101: One can not learn to differentiate between a good and bad choice, much less learn to make a good choice, when there are limited or no good choices available in the learning environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 28 May 07 - 05:48 PM

Janie:

You used the word mitigate. Prevent has a completely different meaning. I am not trying to impugn your knowledge or efforts or professionalism or Bobert's either.

What I am trying to say is the causes of poverty must be addressed. Evidently they are not being addressed because the problem is growing larger. More people needing more and more help.

You say "If you would only work 4 jobs instead of three, dear, and eat dogfood instead of spam," What causes a person to be in this situation? I realize that they are usualy born into a bad situation but how did that situation come about? One bad situation leads to a worse situation. Reverse engineer the problem and go back to when the problem first began.

"One can not learn to differentiate between a good and bad choice"

Where did that come from? I have not heard it before. I know I can learn, I think you can. Rats can learn. There may be some mentally disabled people who cannot learn. People can be influenced to make bad choices (by the garbage I spoke of) but they still know it is bad.

To say that people can't learn something is to declare them mentally incompetent. Sounds bigoted to me. Like saying "Hey, you people are so dumb you can't make the right choices so just go ahead and make bad choices and we will mitigate the problems later. It here is not enough money we will bitch, moan and find someone to blame."

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 28 May 07 - 06:37 PM

Read (and quote) the whole sentence Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 07 - 06:40 PM

"One can not learn to differentiate between a good and bad choice, much less learn to make a good choice, when there are limited or no good choices available in the learning environment."

There is the whole sentencem, and there is a world of difference in the implications between that and what you quoted, Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:23 PM

If you don't choose to quote the entire sentence, please follow proper conventions for indicating you are quoting only part of a sentence written by another author. You know, the dots before and or after that let the reader know the quote is not complete, and might therefore be out of context? Or at least clue them that part of the sentence or germaine idea has been left out by the quoter?

I have no reason to believe you are ignorant of those conventions.
And they are very strong conventions. People who fail to use them in editorials, publications, letters to the editor, reasearch papers, term papers, etc, sometimes find themselves in legal difficulties when they fail to use them. I doubt, and certainly don't intend to try to find out, if the same legal consequences apply to an internet forum. Your failure to follow these conventions, taught in any high school English class, contained in the Harbrace College Handbook, and required by any professional guide to writing professional papers, such as the APA rules regarding quoting other sources, is simply another indication of your lack of integrity.

Now, tell us more about your values.

Also, I'm still waiting to read your fix for poverty that leaves the current distribution of wealth and income untouched.

J.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:24 PM

You are right Peace. What I am trying to emphasize is that children should be taught to make good choices at an early age.

They all have a brain that is more or less equal at the beginning but the garbage being fed to them beginning at an early age clouds their judgment.

It seems to me that some people think that is unavoidable and we must deal with the result. I don't agree. We must deal with the cause or we will always have the same results to deal with and increasing level of poverty.

It all goes back to education being the key to eliminating poverty, not mitigation.

Here is an example of what our young folks are exposed to :

Niggaz4life upped the violence and aggression for this 1991 classic. I remember me and my boys riding around drinking brew and being ready for whatever when this joint came out. Without Cube in the fold, they were out to prove that they did'nt need him. They succeed in proving that they could make it without him. MC Ren steps up to the plate and handles his business on key tracks like Prelude and Real N*ggaz Don't Die, and pretty much the rest of the album. Dre and Eazy deliver some of the best rhymes of their careers as well.

Top Joints:
Prelude (Ren disses so called hiphop purists - "N*ggaz rapping since the 70's and still never went Gold")
Real Niggaz Don't Die
Niggaz 4 Life
Protest (Funny)
Appetite For Destruction (Classic, nice bounce)
Alwayz Into Somethin'
Message To B.A. (They were cut his hair off, yall know the rest)
Real Niggaz
One Less Bitch (Hard)
Findum, Fuckum & Flee
Automobile (Eazy's country western parody)
She Swallowed It (Get it all baby)
I'd Rather Fuck You (Eazy's interpretation of Bootsy Collin's classic)
Approach To Danger
The Dayz Of Wayback (That's my joint!)

http://www.amazon.com/Niggaz4life-N-W/dp/B000003B74

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 28 May 07 - 07:47 PM

THE ROOT CAUSE OF POVERTY IS LACK OF RESOURCES.

Yes, I was just shouting.

The root cure for poverty is resources. There a number of things that effect how accessible resources are.

There are a number of factors that effect how skillful a person may be in getting their hands on resources.

Fact is, if 1% of the population has a vast majority of the available resources locked up, a significant number of the other 99% are going to be hungry, cold and sick, no matter what education, skills, values, etc., they may acquire. UNLESS, they figure a way to get their hands on some of that vast majority of resources the 1% is sitting on.

Yessirree. People can and do learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 28 May 07 - 08:19 PM

Again I ask, What does this perceived wealth er, resources, that the greedy stingt 1% consist of and how is it to be redistributed without collapsing the economy?

There are thousands of wealthy foundations to fund projects for education. The foundations are funded by Corporations and rich individuals. Warren Buffet gave $30.7 billion to the Bill and Melissa Gates Foundation. Bill Gates has pledged to donate 90% of his fortune, $50 billion currently, before his death.

If you have a particular peoject in mind, why not apply for a grant?


I think this old fart was the richest man of all time and he started a foundation:

Andrew Carnegie’s charge that the Corporation dedicate itself to the “advancement and diffusion of knowledge and understandingâ€쳌 has led it, over nearly 100 years of work, to support efforts to improve teaching and learning. Our history resonates throughout the current work in education, which is focused on three major areas: 1) advancing literacy, 2) urban school reform, and 3) teacher education reform. A theme that unites these subprograms is ensuring that all students gain access to an education of the highest quality that will prepare them for success in today’s knowledge-based economy.

The central ideas that inform the Corporation’s grantmaking in education also arise from a concern with strengthening formal schooling while at the same time supporting innovative educational strategies and reforms that address the needs of individual students at all levels. Our concerns include the need to build a deep capacity in the citizens of the United States for literacy and for analytic and interpretive skills; recognition of the essential importance of the quality of teaching to the production of effective learning; and acknowledgment of the idea that all students are well served by a commitment to rigor and high standards.

How to Apply for a Grant

The Corporation accepts requests for funding at all times of the year and welcomes inquiries from potential grantees whose work fits our strategic guidelines. There are no application deadlines.

Grantseekers who would like to approach the foundation with a preliminary request for funding are encouraged to submit a letter of inquiry. If the project described in the letter fits the foundation's guidelines, the sender will be contacted and asked to submit a proposal in the Corporation's format. A request to submit a proposal is not an indication of the Corporation's intention or commitment to award a grant.

Please read the program guidelines and funding restrictions carefully to determine if your organization and project fits the Corporation's grantmaking strategies and take the Grantseeker quiz to help you determine eligibility. If you are still unsure about the appropriateness of your submission, please call Dorothy Delman at [phone] for further assistance.

If you are confident that your project meets our funding criteria, please follow the instructions below to submit a letter of inquiry.

http://www.carnegie.org/sub/program/grant.html

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 28 May 07 - 08:22 PM

Still waiting....

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 29 May 07 - 01:51 AM

Also, I'm still waiting to read your fix for poverty that leaves the current distribution of wealth and income untouched.

The fix is to identify the things that cause it in the first place and eliminate them. One way to is to quit feeding them garbage, social poison.

I am waiting for you to tell me how your mitigating activity reduces poverty. It reduces the effects but does not reduce poverty. It does not break the cycle and therefore it grows worse.

As I have pointed out the wealthy and corporations donate to foundations and trusts that support programs to fight poverty.

Here is the 2004 tax return for the Gates foundation. It is 2565 pages long. It lists contributions such as $29,385,243.00 to the institute for world health to establish and validate a manufacturing process to makes artmisinin type drugs affordable for the world's poorest people.

$750,000,000.00 to The Vacine fund in Washington DC for general support.

$220,000.00 to the Seattle housing authority to support construction of Alder Crest Apartments and provide services to families in crisis during their period of transition to a more stable condition.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 29 May 07 - 01:53 AM

Oops, I forgot the link
http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org//990pf_pdf_archive/911/911663695/911663695_200412_990PF.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:17 PM

Well, well, well.... And the beat goes on...

Personally, we had a major weather event a few days ago which blew the crud ouuta my modem so I ain't been 'round since...

Yes, let me reiterate what Janie said: "The root cause of poverty is a lack of resources"....

Yeah, this is what it comes down to...

I proposed a step-by-step plan for dealing with that problem...

Some would argue that the upper 1% shouldn't have to be part of the fix but seein' as that is where a major piece of the wealth lies, I don't agree...

I also don't agree that the IRS or the Justice Department is making much of an effort to catch the off-shore tax thieves, especially since most of it is perfectly, ahhh, friggin' legal???? What, can this be??? Well, yeah, it is... But you have to be super rich to afford the accountants and attorney's to pull it off but it collectively is in the hundreds of billions of taxable income that the rich are currently squirreling away from Uncle Sam...

The Washington Post recently did an article on this and it's big friggin' bucks... Enough to pay for No-Child-Left-Behind, child care subsidies and have more money in the kiitty for other programs...

This is theft that rich people have paid their corrupt governemnt to make law so that they can leagally steal.... We ain't talkin' the right winged "Wefare-Cadillac" here but real theft!!!!

But some here just think that that's okeeee-dokeee with them...

No, it is about resources... 100% about resources....

Problem is that, after the real "welfare state" (the rich), there ain't nuff left to do the country's business...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:20 PM

Fifty billion here, a trillion there--hell, pretty soon it adds up to real money.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 29 May 07 - 11:38 PM

Easy peasy Dickey. Mitigation is about finding, providing and or linking people to resources. Increased resources = decreased poverty.

Don't send a mother or father to school and expect them to do much with that 'opportunity' if they are consumed with struggling to provide the most basic of needs for food, clothing and shelter to their family. Mitigation aimed at meeting of basic needs will increase the likelihood the parent will make good 'use' of the educational opportunity, and therefore increase the likelihood that at some point in the future, the family will not need mitigation to meet basic needs.

Need based scholarships and grants are mitigation.

Subsidized child care or health care, section 8 housing, bus vouchers (in those places where there are buses or mass transit) are mitigation.

Little mitigation is needed to prevent poverty. Prevention is something that occurs in the absence of a problem. Prevention is an action taken to avoid the occurrence of a problem. Mitigation will almost always be a necessary part of any successful effort to remedy a problem, however.

You talk so arrogantly of values, and give the impression that you believe that you, and people who are financially able to take care of their basic needs, have a corner on the market on good values. If you actually knew many poor people very well, (and provided your own sense of well-being and moral superiority was not too threatened by the realization)you would not, with such an extremely wide brush, cling to your assertion that the root cause of poverty is lousy values.

Mitigation is sometimes simply the right and moral action, even if it will set no stage for opportunity. Sometimes I seek ways to mitigate simply because my values dictate that I offer a plate of food if some one appears who is hungry. In the face of hunger, who is to blame doesn't matter. It is not for me to judge who deserves to eat when there is enough food to feed everyone. I am always mindful that there some seeds of hope and opportunity included in that meal I hand over, but I have no control and no attachment to the ground on which the seed lands. Maybe it is barren. Doesn't matter. Maybe the seed will rot or die before conditions occur in which it might germinate. Doesn't matter. Maybe it is one of those seeds that remain viable for a long time, and down the road, when I am long gone out of the picture, something will happen to change the conditions, and the seed will germinate. Doesn't matter. Maybe the seed will wash right off of that ground, flow down the creek, and land on some other ground where it will germinate. Doesn't matter. If the seed ever does germinate, maybe it will wither. Doesn't matter. My responsibility as a human being is to offer the plate with food on it to the hungry person in front of me.

Still waiting....

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 29 May 07 - 11:49 PM

'Catters that want Bill Gate's to fork it over, don't read:

The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (B&MGF) is the largest transparently operated charitable foundation in the world, founded by Bill and Melinda Gates in 2000 and doubled in size by Warren Buffett in 2006. The primary aims of the foundation are, globally, to enhance healthcare and reduce extreme poverty, and, in the United States, to expand educational opportunities and access to information technology. The foundation, based in Seattle, Washington, is controlled by its three trustees: Bill Gates, Melinda Gates, and Warren Buffett. Other principal officers include Co-Chair William H. Gates, Sr. and Chief Executive Officer Patty Stonesifer.

On June 25, 2006, Warren Buffett (then the world's second richest person, after Gates) pledged to give the foundation approximately 10 million Berkshire Hathaway Class B shares (worth US$30.7 billion on June 23, 2006) spread over multiple years through annual contributions. Buffett set conditions so that these contributions do not simply increase the foundation's endowment, but effectively work as a matching contribution, doubling the Foundation's annual giving: "Buffett's gift came with three conditions for the Gates foundation: Bill or Melinda Gates must be alive and active in its administration; it must continue to qualify as a charity; and each year it must give away an amount equal to the previous year's Berkshire gift, plus another 5 percent of net assets. Buffett gave the foundation two years to abide by the third requirement." The Gates Foundation received 5% (500,000) of the shares in July 2006 and will receive 5% of the remaining earmarked shares in the July of each following year (475,000 in 2007, 451,250 in 2008, and so on).

[edit] Activities

As of 2006, the foundation has an endowment of approximately US$33.7 billion. To maintain its status as a charitable foundation, it must donate at least 5% of its assets each year. Thus the donations from the foundation each year would amount to over US$1.5 billion at a minimum.

The Foundation has been organized, as of April 2006, into four divisions, including core operations (public relations, finance and administration, human resources, etc.), under Chief Operating Officer Cheryl Scott, and three grant-making programs:

    * Global Health Program
    * Global Development Program
    * United States Program
United States Program

Under President Allan Golston, the United States Program has made grants such as the following:

Education

NewSchools Venture Fund
    The Foundation contributed US$30 million to help NewSchools to manage more charter schools, which aim to prepare students in historically underserved areas for college and careers.

Gates Millennium Scholars
    Administered by the United Negro College Fund the foundation donated US$1 billion for scholarships to high achieving minority students.

    Official site: www.gmsp.org

Gates Cambridge Scholarships
    Donated US$210 million in October 2000 to help outstanding graduate students outside of the United Kingdom study at the University of Cambridge. Approximately 100 new students every year are funded.

    Official site: www.gates.scholarships.cam.ac.uk

University Scholars Program
    Donated US$20 million in 1998 to endow a scholarship program at Melinda Gates' alma mater, Duke University. The program provides full scholarships to about 10 members of each undergraduate class and one member in each class in each of the professional schools (Schools of Medicine, Business, Law, Divinity, Environment, and Nursing). The program also pays for a full-time administrator who organizes seminars to bring these scholars together for interdisciplinary discussions as well as the selection process in the Spring.

D.C. Achievers Scholarships
    The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation announced March 22, 2007 a $122 million initiative to send hundreds of the District of Columbia's poorest students to college.

Texas High School Project http://www.thsp.com

Criticisms:

The Gates Millennium Scholars fund, according to its official website's frequently asked questions section, only provides scholarships to African American, American Indian/Alaska Native, Asian, Pacific Islander American or Hispanic American applicants. Because the program focuses on racial and ethnic minorities, it has been criticized for excluding Caucasians. However, such grant programs are argued to be necessary to counteract more broadly occurring trends of systemic racism..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_and_Melinda_Gates_Foundation

Ahhhh, Well Well Well, 5% of $33.7 billion, that's $1,685,000,000 per year min. That number gets higher each as the assets grow plus Buffet aims to double that. Ol' Bill is 42 now so within 40 years or so he will have given away 90% of his fortune which will probably quadruple in 40 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 30 May 07 - 12:33 AM

Janie: You can keep on waiting. If Increased resources = decreased poverty then eventually there will be no need for these resources, correct?

You said correctly that Prevention is an action taken to avoid the occurrence of a problem. Mitigation will almost always be a necessary part of any successful effort to remedy a problem.

But you do not state how mitigation prevents the occurence of poverty.

Prevention is something that occurs in the absence of a problem.???????? Prevention eliminates the problem before it exists. Prevention does not occur.Prevention is proactive. Mitigation is reactive.

And I do not agree that scholarships are mitigation. Handing out a hot meal or food stamps is a good thing to do but the hunger re occurs. Hand out a scholarship and the need does not re occur.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:58 AM

Dickey, is all that shit that you just printed supposed to mean something to the hungry kid in the street. Cause to me it's just a bunck of worthless numbers on a page that can't be eaten.

Maybe you can explain what all that means in terms of an empty stomack?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:27 AM

Well, if all those in the upper 1% were like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, we might not be having this discusssion... They seem to have come to moral ground that makes them re-evalute their own person wealth...

Good for them....

But they don't represent the morals of the those in the upper 1% by any means.... They are the rare exception... Not the rule...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:51 AM

Yup. Only I wasn't really waiting. Because I can do math and already knew you couldn't provide an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 30 May 07 - 10:35 AM

Janie:

You are attempting to get me into the Ron Davies Iron Jaw Trap. You claim I was supposed to do something and when I don't do it you use it to disprove other things. I have shown how Boss Hogg helps poor people. I show one example and Bobert claims that is the rare exception.

Tell me how many examples I need to show before Bobert puts his bias aside. I suppose he would rather force Bill Gates to liquidate his $50 billion fortune and preclude the greater amount of money given to charitable causes over the years.

Here are some example foundations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Foundations_based_in_the_United_States

Here is another example: Virginia Foundation for the Humanities

The priorities of the Virginia Foundation for the Humanities are:

    * Books, Reading, and Literacy--the importance of the text as a means of transmitting, exploring, and broadening our understanding of the human experience.
    * Media and Culture--the global influence of electronic media on culture, how the media may promote or undermine positive social change, and how media may influence individual perception and creative thinking.
    * Violence and Culture--the roots of violence and personal dislocation, and the struggle for individual survival and self-determination within systems of violence.[Doesn't that sort of cut right through to the roots of poverty?]
    * Rights and Responsibilities--the still-evolving American traditions of self-government and justice, and the special role Virginia has played in shaping the concept of freedom worldwide.
    * Science, Technology, and Social Change--advances in science and technology, the challenges and opportunities they create, and how they are redefining culture and community life.
    * Virginia History--the stories of Virginia, its people and institutions, with particular emphasis on the history of minority communities in the state.


"How the media may promote or undermine positive social change." I like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 30 May 07 - 11:56 AM

Dickey you need to study up. Masolow is a good start.

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/maslow.html

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:13 PM

Good one, dianavan! I had been tempted to refer to Masolow in the 'easy peasy' post. Glad you did. It won't interest Dickey, or influence him in the least, but it may well others who are reading.

Dickey, I don't know about Ron's Iron Jaw trap. I am acquainted with Ron from Getaways, and greatly admire his fine musicianship. However, I don't often inhabit the same threads in the BS section as does he, or you for that matter.   

Feeling trapped...how interesting.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 30 May 07 - 08:14 PM

Well, well, well...

Seems the only traps I've seen here are self-set by Dickey... Seems he loves the attention.... Even if it means trapping himself...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 30 May 07 - 08:25 PM

I know just what you mean about the media, Dickey. It really pisses me off, all those poor people sneaking into the offices and board rooms of Ad agencies and Media corporations, holding guns to the heads of those CEO's, decision-makers, college educated marketing specialists and graphic artists. Those poor brand name only sluts make the people who run those companies, and the thousands of bright, college educated middle and upper middle class young adults who work for them promote and sell all that crap and disregard decent and humane values to the almighty dollar. Those trashy poor people. They make the media do it. Those no-good poor people made the brand names market themselves in such a way that only a brand name will do. Those poor people demanded that (in my book) unethical people with PhD's in psychology put the big bucks in front of the welfare of people and go to work applying their skills and knowledge to manipulating human behavior in the service of effective advertising and the making of big bucks. Those goddamn poor people. How dare they be exploitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 30 May 07 - 09:19 PM

"Tell me how many examples I need to show before Bobert puts his bias aside...."

Hmmmm.

Telling.

Very telling.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 30 May 07 - 09:38 PM

Okay, I will freely admit that I have "biases"... Biases, however, are much different than "predufices"... Biases come from a life time of learning...

Yes, if by our age we havent settled into a set of "biases" then there is seomething drastically wrong???

"Hmmmmmmmmm????", Dickey asks...

Yeah, bias mean that we think toward one value or another... That, in essense, is what wisdom is all about... No one should be ashamed of genuinely well feveloped biases... It is what we live be... Biases are another word for our belief systems... Our values... Our core...

Sure, I have biases but they are from a lifetime's experiences whci included 20 years "in the hole"... LOL... Working as a jail house teacher, a drug counselor and a social worker... Yeah, I hope I came out with a good number of biases or...

...what a waste...

But what one can never say about me is that I pre-judged an indivudual or a situation...

That dog just won't hunt...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 30 May 07 - 09:45 PM

And the people say "Amen!"

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:37 AM

Janie:

Just what the hell are you talking about? I try to explain how some companies really are boss hoggs who prey on poor people through the media and you make some sort of parody that seems to imply I am doing the opposite. This exploitation through the media must be identified and ended as part of the elimantion of the roots of poverty.

Your concept seems to be to try to mitigate the damage from exploitation through the media after it is done by blaming it on every body with money and forcing them to pay. That is reactive rather that proactive action.

I show how some of Bobert's imagined boss hoggs actuly contribute to poor people and that he is automaticaly biased against anybody that has money and he claims bias is good. "But what one can never say about me is that I pre-judged an indivudual" How about me Bobert? You have called am a shill, a rich guy, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:59 AM

How to Create a Neighborhood
Babysitting CooperativeDianavan:

"...a babysitting co-op for working mothers."

That says it all. You obviously cannot think beyond your mouth.

If they are working, who will be the babysitters?

I guess you expect that they will arrange their working hours to suit the babysitting arrangements. Dream on."

Regardless of your ongoing personal attacks:

How to Create a Neighborhood Babysitting Cooperative
A How-to Guide for neighborhood leaders working to make life better for people in Battle Creek. Yes we can.
http://www.wkkf.org/Pubs/GreaterBC/Babysitting_coop_00254_02987.pdf


BABYSITTING COOPERATIVES

Dorothy Labensohn
Family Life Extension Specialist
Human Development and Family Studies
Iowa State University
http://www.nncc.org/Choose.Quality.Care/qual.sitter.coop.html

    Creating Opportunities

    Any project or area of work in the framework for community-based poverty reduction can be a springboard for enhancing employability and promoting economic development. Any organization can become the base for skills training, assistance with job search, worker co-ops and job creation.
   
    Peer support groups and neighbourhood associations, for example, can encourage unemployed members to coordinate setting up a business or a food or babysitting co-op. Immigrant settlement programs can act as the base for employment counselling, referral to training or promotion of self-employment. Adult high school and language programs for adults can incorporate job referral and employment counselling.
   
    A social housing complex can become the centre from which to teach home or furniture repair skills to young people or unemployed residents. Families whose children participate in early childhood development projects can exchange services such as home repairs, babysitting, lawn care, typing of résumés, transportation or snow removal. Family counselling programs can extend into training and job creation.

http://www.caledoninst.org/Publications/Detail/?ID=378

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:12 PM

Well, okay...

Yeah, this coop might be of some help but in the big scheme of things, ain't even a drop in the bucket of what we are talkin' about here...

BTW, the fact is that the upper 1% are hiding tens of billions offshore... Is Bill Gates??? Nah, he dosen'have tiome to hide his money.... Same with Warren Buffet... These ain't the folks who are hiding the money but the money ***is*** being hidden...

I suggested that, as part of a larger package of revenue creating ideas, that "legal" off-shore hiding of taxable income be made "illegeal"... This certainly isn't going to hurt either Gates or Buffet, or any other upper 1%'r who is playing fair and not stealing "legally" from our country...

Just close the loopholes, will ya'???? This will help finance the stuff that I suggested as ways to end poverty....

Bobert

BTW.... Can I assume, Dickey, that you are part of that upper 1%??? You certainly jump in to defend them at the drop of a hat...

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 31 May 07 - 11:17 PM

"the fact is that the upper 1% are hiding tens of billions offshore" Please explain that fact Bobert.

"legal" off-shore hiding of taxable income be made "illegeal" If it was legal, why would they have to hide it? Does not compute.

It is already is illegal to hide taxable income off shore, in a mattress, anywhere. Where did this fairy tale come from? You spout this crap without even checking to see if it is true. You don't even care if it is true. You are not concerned with the truth. You can't recognise the truth.

"Making investments or doing business internationally is legal, but numerous schemes have been devised in which the true ownership of income streams and assets has been hidden or disguised using offshore activity, which is not legal."

No Bobert, I am way far below that 1%, probably where you are at. I just don't believe in class warfare like you do. It is easier to solve problems by blaming them on someone and demand they fix it. McDonalds made me fat for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 01:55 AM

Do you ever read your sources?

"Babysitting co-ops usually are intended for occasional and not regular child care."

Working mothers need regular child care, not occasional child care!

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 02:36 AM

If it walks like a duck
Talks like a duck
If there's duck doo on your pick up truck
You can just about bet your last bottom buck
That it ain't no armadillo

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 09:06 PM

Tell ya what, Dickey... Seein' as you have the opinion that the upper 1% ain't using loopholes to hide taxable billions offshore then give ne a couple days and I'll find the Washington Post article and then you can have it out with the reporters who researche the piece... I have it somewhere but I'm a tad busy being not the upper 1% and, ahhhhhhh, consequently, working my brains out to survive in these time of corporatization that I don't have the time I had a few years back for research and collecting and filing stuff I read... But I still read a lotta stuuf...

BTW, Dickey... Why is it that you are so quick to defend the upper 1%???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 12:40 AM

What you said Bobert was:

"Reform the tax codes that allow the rich to hide income in accounts off-shore" when it is already illegal.

"It is legal to have an offshore account, provided it is reported and any taxes are paid. Failure to disclose such holdings is a felony punishable by up to five years in prison."

Did you read that OK Bobert or do you need some help? New glasses?

Just fess up and admit that you parrot things that are not true and then try to blame it on somebody else.
You are very big on blaming someone and small on personal accountability.

---

Babysitting coops:

YOUNG WOMEN WORK
Community Economic Development to Reduce
Women's Poverty and Improve Income
Molly McCracken,
with Kate Dykman, Francine Parent and Ivy Lopez
Partners:
Andrews Street Family Centre
Prairie Women's Health Centre of Excellence
SEED Winnipeg Inc.
Wolseley Family Place
Project #105

Worker-owned Child Care Coop: Provide loans for young
women with low incomes to be trained as Early Childhood
Educators. Loans are forgivable if young women start a
worker-owned Child Care Coop in the inner-city and are
working members for two years. Proper supports and
infrastructure would have to be provided to train worker
members and help them to set up the centre, get capital for
building etc.

YOUNG WOMEN WORK
discussion on this topic found in the literature scan for this
research project.
More direction from the Aboriginal community is important
because we know that teen pregnancy and motherhood have
important implications for young woman's education,
economic status, and health. Teenaged mothers are less likely
to finish their education, although they may return to finish at
a later date. Staying out of school for a portion of time does
set them back. Additionally, since they are more likely to be
single, they lack a partner to contribute to household income,
therefore they are more likely to live in poverty.

If they do become pregnant, teens with low incomes have a
higher probability of parenting their children than choosing to
terminate the pregnancy. Winnipeg pregnancy rates by
income quintile demonstrate that:
…birth rates were highest, and abortion rates lowest, among
young women in the lowest income quintiles. Birth rates decreased,
and abortion rates increased, with each income quintile. Pregnant
young women in Winnipeg's wealthiest neighbourhoods were least
likely to give birth and most likely to terminate their pregnancies.

What is the connection between poverty and teen pregnancy?
"Research has shown that those teens who have low
expectations of their own future have a higher risk of teenage
pregnancy and often welcome the pregnancy as a way to bring
meaning to their lives"

. Lack of supports for teen mothers
means that they often experience risks such as low income,
low expectations of their futures, low self-esteem, alienation
within family, sexual abuse, and poor parenting...."

http://www.uwinnipeg.ca/admin/vh_external/pwhce/pdf/yww.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 04:37 PM

No, it ain't glasses.... I stick by the intent of my post which is to close down the "legal" tax loopholes that allows rich people to stash the cash in places like the Caymen Islands that is not taxable...

Not too many other ways I can put it... in 2006 over $1.3 trillion dollars were stashed away in these accounts around the world and that costs the US about "$100 billion" a year... Tell you all what... That $100 billion would go a long way toward funding the proposals I have made that would, in essence, end poverty for anyone willing to work plus bring our elderly poor out of poverty, as well...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:03 AM

"It is legal to have an offshore account, provided it is reported and any taxes are paid. Failure to disclose such holdings is a felony punishable by up to five years in prison."

Bobert:

Please re-read and tell me where it says it is legal not to pay taxes on offshore accounts. It says it is not legal but you keep saying it is legal.

If money is stashed away and not reported and taxes not paid, it is illegal. It is not a tax loophole but you insist it is a "legal" tax loophole.

You are pulling our leg. You can't be that niaeve. But then again, anybody that believes the minimum rant for an apartment is $1300 could possibly be that niaeve.

And you insist that only rich people can have offshore accounts. Even you can have an offshore account so I guess that makes you rich.


Now, About That Account in the Cayman Islands - John M. Mathewson's computerized records may expose tax evaders he helped in the Cayman Islands - Brief Article
Insight on the News, Sept 6, 1999 by John Elvin

The light federal sentence handed down to John M. Mathewson of San Antonio for helping U.S. citizens evade taxes while running the now-defunct Guardian Bank and Trust Ltd. of the Cayman Islands could spell trouble for tax-evaders. Mathewson was given probation after providing prosecutors with computerized records that authorities say may produce charges against 1,500 Americans.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_33_15/ai_55739267

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 09:02 AM

Well, that's what I'm saying, too, Thick-heady... Close down the friggin' loophole that is costing the US Tresaury (i.e. the US governemnt and the US people) $100B (That's billion, Dickey!!!) a year in lost revenues...

What is it that you still can't understand???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 11:19 AM

Bobert: What happened to "legal" in your discription? Have you shifted ground on that while still claiming you were right?

Now let's examine your characterization of illegaly not paying taxes on money stashed away offshore as being a loophole. Are loopholes legal or illegal? If those 1,500 Americans mentioned were using a loophole, why are they subject to being charged with illegal tax evasion?

A loophole is a legal technicality. Therefore anyone that does something illegal cannot be using a loophole.

Have you abandoned your "fact" that only rich people can have an offshore account?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 09:02 PM

Get another hobby, Jerko... You line of questioning would be stopped by any judge with an I.Q. greateer than that of a box of animal crackers... Might of fact, get a life to go with your new hobby... Yours, apparently, sucks big time...

Bye...

Now, lwt's look at what a $100B could do toward the larger discussion of poverty in the US... It could fully fund the child care subsidies pool which the Bush administartion has frozen.... Child care is a disgrace... On one hand, with the Clinton also disgraceful Welfare Reform legiaslation or 1996, it says to mothers, "We ain't gonna provide for even in slightest you so 'Get a job'"... But it did recognize that that these mother's wouldn't be able to afford to work, pay rent and living expemses and child care for their kids...

(BTW... Just for the record, this wasn't a challenge that any of the men in and ***man dominated*** Congress of '96 actaully knew anything about first hand as none of them were poor and mothers, but that's another story...)

So here we had a shiny new "Welfare Reform" program that wasn't all that new... It was a logical extensiion of redneck/right wing "Welfare Caddialc" propaganda which was based 100% on disinformation, hatred, bigotry and all the other stuff associated with rednecks and uneducated people...

But here we had this new program which, is essence, said "Get a job. We don't care if you have to get up at 4 o'clock in the morning, egt yer kids to a child care provider and stand in snow waiting for a danged bus to make $5.15 an hour cleaning tioletes down town... Just get a job"... "But", they continued, "we'll help out with the child care and may a little job training (very little)..."

So Bertha Williams up on 27th Street did just that... Got herself a job paying $6.50 and hour (whooopeee, the big bucks...) cleaning motel rooms at the Motel 6 on the other side of town... She tried to find a job closer but in the only area she could afford to live there weren't any jobs...

So fast forward to 2007.... With more and more moms like Bertha Williams using up their ADC or AFDC windows and having to "Get a job" these mothers are now also needing assistence with child care...

Problem: It don't take a rocket surgeon to tell ya that if you freeze the $$$$ amount going into a program and more folks are dependent on that program that Bertha Willaim's subsidies are going to be cut... Well, Bertha has gotten two 25 cents and hour raises since 1886 so she is making $7.00 and hour now... Problem is that prices have outrun the 50 cent and hour increaes and so Bertha Williams has, in essence, taken a pay cut since going along with the program back some 10 years ago...

And, of course, the Dickey's of the world can rationalizee this and blame it folks like me... It's always easier on them to have a big ol' belly laugh as they discount the ideas of the "liberal, the communists, the hippies" or whatever buzz word the Rush Limbaugh's have provided them to discredit people who actually give a rat's ass about human rights...

But here we are with an extra $100B--- Yes, billion, folks--- by closing a loopehole that is expolited almost exclusively by rich people and this money is now available to be used to fight pverty in the USA??? Hmmmmmmmmm???? Congress can't get this loophole close fast enough for the Bertha Williams of our country... No, not fast enough....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 09:59 AM

As much as Bobert would like us to believe, there is no loopholes that rich people use to avoid taxes with offshore bank accounts.

Such activity is illegal and it is actively persued by the IRS. It is not a loophole as he claims.

Also offshore bank accounts are available to anybody, not just the rich as Bobert claims.

Here is a list of illegal methods that people use to avoid paying taxes.

Bobert wants you to believe that ***only*** the rich can use offshore banking to avoid taxrs. It is a straw man issue intended to stir up class warfare and hatred just as racisim is used to divide the population and pit one against the other.

Yes people avoid taxes. Yes this money could be used to fight poverty.

I don't have any personal comments to make about Bobert in order to impune his charactar but he is wrong to blame the rich for the existance of poverty.

$100 billion divided by 300 million people is $333.33 per person.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:15 PM

Here's the poverty thresholds from 1995 - 2005 following NAS recommendation according to the U.S. census (two adults, two children).

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/povmeas/altmeas05/nas_povmeasures2005.xls

What is the amount of a welfare check for a two adult, two child family?

What is the amount of a welfare check for a one adult, two child family?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 06:51 PM

BS, Prickey... You are either a liar, stupid or just listening to folks who happen to make a living misinforming people like you... One of the three... There isn't a forth option... Poor people can't afford these off shore tax havens... Middle clas people are beating their brains out trying not to sink into poverty so guess what, Creepo... Rich people, I wil repeat, rich people are the ones who are benefiting from these loopholes... Close them the heck down...

You live in a dream world, pal... Come on outta yer castle and see what it's really like out here....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,Richey Rich, aka AWG
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:16 PM

Why is everyone against the rich ? Without rich people, who would donate the Billions to charity each year ? Certainly not the Boberts, or Dickeys of the world. Without the rich, the poor would be far worse off then they are now, FAR worse off. So instead of crucifying the rich, maybe be thankful for their existence, and make a vow to say THANK YOU to the next rich person you see ! Let the rich Fat Cats keep their offshore accounts and be thankful for their generous gifts to the poor, along with other equally important charities each year (tax deductable, of course). Rich people make the world go around. Think about it !

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: AWG
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:34 PM

BTW, illegal (non-declared) offshore bank accounts are more a tool used by criminals, not law abiding 'rich people'. Legitimate rich people have accountants to hide their money legally (using deductions or so-called loopholes), and there is no need (and in most cases, desire) to resort to anything illegal. Some people are too suspicious of everyone with money. Hope I have been able to clarify the situation. PS I don't hate rich people, I admire them (most of them), for their generosity, work ethic, and the fact they actually hire people ( I don't mean a handful either) because they can. Without the rich, where would people work ? For themselves ? For the government ? Without the rich, the economy would quickly grind to a halt, then we would all be poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 08:53 PM

Noy everyone is against rich people... The rich, for instance, think that since most of them are rich by either luck of the draw or having gotten there thru corrupt means, love themselves... The there are the groopies, like perhaps the folks herer in Mudville who come to their defense at every turn, who worship the rich and are perfectly willing to act as their shills...

One thing is fir sure is that many of them think that off-shore cheating, just because it is legal, though immoral as Hell, is fine behavior... I have a cousin who falls into this category... I hate it when he goes into his tax loopholes monologues... He's just too borish to understand that folks like me are working our brains out and don't have all that much dough left at the end of the onth to hire shadey accountants to find ways to aviod paying taxes... From what I have heard from my cousin, who makes half a million a year, he pays less taxes than I do with my meager earnings...

Yeah, not all rich folks are like him but when one drives around the prestigious neighborhoods in just about every city in the US and ses the opulant wealth that drips from the upper 1%, it's more than justa tad on "in-your-face peasants"...

I grew up in Northern Virginia with war heros, high level governemnt people, Congressmen and the like... It was the 50's... Everyone lived purdy much the same... Three bedroom houses and maybe two baths... Now it's 10 bedrooms and a dozen baths... This is over tthe top... It pisses off working and poor people to no end!!! It is criminal, it is borish, it is opulant and it is the reason why the upper 1% are coming onto the radar screan... They have no class and they have thimbed their noses at everyone else...

So, yeah, the upper 1% is a major part of the problem... Just as it is in Haiti...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:37 AM

Bobert: "what one can never say about me is that I pre-judged an indivudual or a situation"

Read your quote and compare it to what you wrote above. Do you see any contradictions?

Your speech is full of misinformation. It is biggoted and intended to spark class warfare.

Can't afford does bot equal not available.

"most of them are rich by either luck of the draw or having gotten there thru corrupt means"

Most of the millionaires and billionaires today did not inherit their wealth. They created it. Bill Gates was a dropout. His parents were not wealthy, just average. Steve Jobs, same story. He and Woz started making computers in the family garage. Larry Ellison was the bastard son of an immigrant. Warren Buffet Bought and resold Cokes when he was six years old. Friggin thieves eh?

Your insinatuion that they got wealthy illegally is biggoted. How about George Soros and his offshore investment fund?

Instead of hating these people, they should be viewed as a resource and cajoled into helping the poor in a constructive manner. Not thru taxation but directly.

You sir, are a hate monger driven by socialist rhetoric. You call anybody that disagrees with you names as if it proves your point.
I agree with you that a lot of people cheat on their taxes and it is wrong. I agree that this money would do a lot to help poor people but I think that attacking the rich folks and blaming them for poverty is wrong.

I see nothing in your speech to single out people and corporations that prey on poor people and hold them back. How about drug dealers? Do rich people send them around to sell drugs in crime ridden neighborhoods? Do rich folks form gangs? How about loan sharks? Payday loan companies? Credit card companies? Rap Gangsta record companies and rappers?

You want to take a simplistic short cut to cover up the effects poverty rather than do the hard work needed to identify and attack the roots of poverty.



"The Roots of Poverty

Remedying only the superficial manifestations of the deeper underlying problems of extreme poverty will never end poverty itself. At best, this approach will temporarily relieve urgent problems at worst, it will exacerbate them or create long-term trade-off problems. If we want to eliminate poverty, we must look at its roots and apply
sustainable, pragmatic development solutions."

http://searchwarp.com/swa7174.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:07 AM

Fact is there is no poverty in the world. Simply a very unequal distribution of wealth, assets and resources. How's that for cold water on a hot fight?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:52 PM

"Do rich people send them around to sell drugs in crime ridden neighborhoods?"

Now that you ask, yes.