This site is NOT like all the rest.

Subject: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,Traddles
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:41 PM

Like some of us here, I've been fascinated by several recent threads focusing on the actions and responsibilities of "guest" posters. I'm posting as a guest at the moment (as I'm allowed to do) with a 'handle' that's suits my current mood and music tastes, and makes communication a little easier. Sometimes it's easier to be candid (tho' still courteous) this way.

Actually these discussions have been for the most part quite civil, even when people make the same points for the umpteenth time. Everyone wants to be understood. That's just human nature, but what I find especially interesting is that some people get VERY annoyed, and start throwing out some pretty scary warnings to those who feel that Mudcat is different than the dozens (hundreds?) of other related sites. They seem to go out of their way to remind us that "we're no different than any of the rest, and should accept flaming, nastiness, and DISINGENUOUS anonymity as part of the price for being on the net". In general they usually go hardest after the people who seem the most trusting of the Mudcat Community.

Well, this little experiment called Mudcat HAS turned into something unique. There IS no precident, not by a long shot. Yes, people reveal a lot. They ask for help in dealing with personal problems, and they GET it. Thirty articulate posts by thirty caring people may well help someone through a crisis better than dealing with a Government buraucracy or high priced therapist. Several threads have focused on people attempting to quit smoking. I'll bet the support they've gotten here is as important as any from the 'real' world.

There are people here who have time and time again gone out of their way to help others. Yes, at times it may seem a bit 'over the top', but I'll take a community spirit like that anytime, and if I occasionally get irritated by an overly trusting nature, or a little too much self-revelation, or even a bit of 'bossiness', well, I'll handle it with minimal complaint.

I completely understand how the people who hate the 'chumminess' here, must feel, but the truth of the matter is that although there are fewer STRICTLY traditional 'experts' here on a regular basis, than in the past, musical questions still get answered. They may not foster as much debate as before, but those concerns CAN be taken to other sites where traditional folk music is the ONLY language spoken. It's also interesting to see that some who've declared their distaste by leaving, simply can't stay away for long. If there's another site on the net that has THAT effect on people I'd like to know what it is.

I've gotten away from my point, which was that I think Mudcat is not only making it's OWN rules (practically on a daily basis) but will probably be seen as an ideal model for groups of people wishing the same kind of 'community feel without the crap'. The designer and the members should be very proud. This place IS different from the rest, and yes, BETTER.

traddles

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Gary T
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:44 PM

What a nice perspective. Thank you.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:51 PM

Well traddles, you made sense in the other thread with really insightful posting and once again you make sense here. No, Mudcat isn't the same as the rest and it does have a unique character. Glad you like it for what it is and if we sometimes go "over the top" in whatever, most of the time it's in our enthusiasm for the joint. It's a strange place in many ways, but pretty wonderful too.

Thanks for your fine post.

Spaw

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:59 PM

Thanks, Traddles. Very kind and insightful of you. As for the Community of Mudcat, you might enjoy these threads:

Retirement/Retreat Community for Mudcats

and,

Old Folkies Retirement Village.

Thanks!

kat

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:59 PM

Hear, hear!

Alex

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:05 AM

yep...thanks,... it is 'us', and not bad...

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:10 AM

This place is different. So many Mudcatters have met each other in 3D; that in itsself makes it different. We have Max to thank for that, but my real question is:

WHY is Mudcat so different? Why do we make such friendships/animosities based so solely on the written word? No other site does that I am aware of.

Why does Bill Sables fly from the UK to the US only on the basis of Mudcat friendships? Why do we trust each other so much? Why does it work?

Granted, we all know exactly where Max is located and if necessary we could go or call there, but our problems are not necessarily Max's problems........

Again, WHY does this place work so well? Is it really a common bond with music? If that were the case then the Maestronet site should work just as well, but it doesn't. (There is serious censorship there tho. A person can't type cockatiel, hell, damn or jesus. Stupid stuff.

Thanks Traddles, for making me think........

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,bobbi
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:11 AM

Hi Traddles... Your style/sentence structure, is remarkably like Gargoyle's... another Mudcat poster, who also uses the name "guest" as well as other psuedonyms... That's remarkable! Are you??????

b

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Sourdough
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:12 AM

Well, put and, Traddles, I think you are right. There is a community of regulars here but it seems to be open to anyone who takes the time to post. THose who do are usually thoughtful and polite, you're right. I enjoy seeing people disagree articulately and politely. THere is a lot of that going on around here. Even people who at the pbeginning, when they first arrive and don't know this, often get "acculturated". Soon, their disagreements are stated with consideration and they are answered that way. Everybody wins. This fluid camraderie seems to drive some people up the wall but there is a lot in mythology about this troublesome kind of reaction. I guess it is a part of human nature.

I noticed a funny reaction on my part to some of the troublesome threads. I actually started not to care all that much about the argument. At first, it was interesting to see the arguments laid out, then it became worrisome because I was afraid that newcomers would think those threads represented Mudcat. I've stopped worrying. You can't protect all lookers in and Mudcat is strong enough to not just survive but to prosper. I suspect there are more music threads today than ever (someone did a recent count and it supported this idea) although they have been diluted by other BS type of threads because the overall number of threads has gone up so much - I figure by fifty percent in the past year or so. I've learned a lot from some of those.

I have pretty much stopped visiting other sites. I've decided that when I want information or I want to socialize on line, there is a ver nice group of people reachable here. I agree with you, I hink this place is quite special. It brings the best out of many.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 01:30 AM

bobbi...sorry to differ, but traddles' writing stlye is VERY different from gargoyles'...(have watched gargoyle for 4 years)...I cannot imagine them being the same person.....

wow...4 years and more here now...I gotta get out more..

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 01:43 AM

Well met, traddles. I agree with what's been said. I've seen some other music sites and very briefly joined another one, and the flaming there makes most of that here look like a matchstick. Unbelievable the lengths people will go to on the net. Logging on to Mudcat after a week of looking at that was like coming home to a great neighborhood.

-chanteyranger

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:38 AM

Oh please... Every MB on the net says the same damn thing, "We're sooo luck that we're not like all the other MB's out there"

Just because this place isn't unique, doesn't make it any less special...

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:40 AM

I agree with Traddles, I have only been here 4 months, but I am amazed at how kind and helpful everybody has been. A couple of weeks ago I met Patrish, she offered to take a day off work and travel to my house and take me to the dentist, the same day Bill Sabels insisted on going many miles out of his way to give me a lift home from a folk session.I could give many more examples like this, I have only met about 20 Catters up to now, but if you are all this freindly I would like to meet you all eventualy.

In my opinion this is definetly the best site on the internet, there is a real community here, not just people posting lyrics etc.
I think Max, Joe Offer and everyone else that makes this site possible deserve a big thank you and some kind ot award.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Joan from Wigan
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:41 AM

I agree with everything Traddles has said. Since I became a member, I have become "addicted" to Mudcat because of the sense of community as well as the amount, variety and quality of information available. Unless I'm away (which I shall be later this morning - it's 7.30am here) I usually log on to Mudcat twice a day, just to make sure I don't miss anything. I don't always have the time to post, and I usually have to save a thread to read offline, but it is definitely unique, there is no other site I access as much. Many thanks to Max for making this possible, but it wouldn't have happened without all the regulars who have made it what it is.

My daughter's boyfriend uses my computer to log on to the chatrooms at Yahoo, and I find it unbelievable the amount of inconsiderate yobs there who are just too full of their own egos and prejudices to give any consideration to other people's thoughts and opinions. Although the occasional Mudcat poster is inflammatory, at least (a) you can ignore them and (b) they can't foul up the system for genuine users.

Long live Mudcat!

Joan

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: BlueJay
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 04:02 AM

It seems to me that part of The Mudcat's success is it's broad scope. There are lots of good newsgroups, chatrooms etc devoted to music. I've even met some of these fine folks in 3-D. But, and correct me if I am wrong, most of these sites are pretty specific. Guitars, Banjos, Mandolins, Blues, Jazz etc. Also, many of these sites are on a technical level that is beyond me.

But they are still pretty specific. They are usually talking about the proper thickness of mandolin frets for a particular instrument, or new equipment, or the cool 30 year old Guild 12 string on e-bay. Again, this is all well and good. The world is a better place for it.

But it's just not the same. Folk, Traditional and Blues covers a hell of a lot of territory. It seems to me that just about anyone with a sincere interest in music at any level could find a home here. I think our strength is in our diversity.

I enjoy the political debates. I enjoy the fantasy and comedy of The Mudcat. I am touched by the love and support during hard times, and the celebrations during good times. I don't like flame wars, so I stay out of them. And the musical contributions and advice just continue and continue. There's not a better blend anywhere, IMO.

I'm pretty inexperienced. I doubt if I've visited even half of the 100 million or so web sites out there. I'll keep looking. But so far, nothing has come even close to The Mudcat Cafe. Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Fiolar
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 05:10 AM

Hear, hear. It is a great site. Where else could you get the words and music for an obscure song and have a chance to discuss burning issues that are not music oriented as well as getting help and support for problems as well as sympathy for the loss of a loved one (human or animal). Having used other sites, I find Mudcat one of the greats and a big thank you to the founders.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Banjer
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:25 AM

Being a long time resident of Mudcatville I enjoy about all of the avrious discussions that go on here. The support that can be found is unlike any other. Yes, we do have a wonderful community going here and hopefuly will have for many years to come!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 08:55 AM

Well after being here better then four years says how I like it here. I've met a huge amount (though not near as many as Bill Sables I'm sure) of Mudcatter's & not a one I didn't like. My wife was telling a visiting sister from the west coast about a party we hosted of mostly Catter's & how unbeliveable it was how all these strangers (strangers to her & some/few others) got on so well, like we had all known each other.
While in the hospital for over 2 months I got so many cards (mostly from people here) that the staff was floored by the wall & door they covered & saying they've never seen that many (thanks all). Even got a few visits from Liam's Brother, Peg, Gloucesterman, & Joy & Alley Cat came by with part of their group (Johnson Girls), while up this way for a festival & did a good bit bit of singing too. It's no wonder that so many come here & stay & eventually meet & end up singing/playing/talking/listening with each other. I'd have to agree, this site is like no other.
Barry

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:02 AM

Sourdough NAILED my feelings about troublesome threads in his second post.

I believe friendships can be and have been made in other forums, message boards and newsgroups on the web, but there may not be the sense of community I feel about Mudcat. I know some don't agree that Mudcat is a community, but perhaps they've just never experienced it. Clinton, folks on WhatsitNet may routinely invite WhatsitNet posters to their house for a weekend of fun, I don't know. I'll bet they don't sit around and sing folk songs.

Perhaps some don't want to experience the community aspect. If those completely anonymous folks are concerned about people learning their e-mail address, they certainly wouldn't want anyone to know what they looked like. They wouldn't want to talk, in person, about the things people talk about when they get together. It's their choice, though. They don't want the friendships or the face-to-face contact. They may deny the sense of community exists, but that doesn't make it any less real to those of us who feel it. They may decry it as "inner circle" and "clique," but those are attempts to make people feel guilty for their friendships, and I'm not about to feel guilty. Any walls that exist have been built by those standing outside them.

My feeling is that many of us want to be inside the circle, or at least close enough to jump in when we choose, then jump back out again. Others just hang out in the shadows on the periphery. In a perfect world, neither the folks furthest inside the circle nor those furthest outside would try to pressure the others to move.

It seems to me that Mudcat first began as a polite but somewhat impersonal place to discuss music. Then the BS started, Max did nothing to stop it, and people started talking about their hopes and feelings instead of just facts and opinions about facts. People made emotional connections to other people, and in-the-flesh gatherings were organized. Now, many of us who have friendships here based on the music, the meetings, and other personal communication, come here to talk to one another. It used to be the friendships were secondary to the music discussion. Now it seems the music is secondary to the friendships. I'm not making a value judgement here, but I realize that some folks have disliked some or all of the changes, and some folks just don't like the way Mudcat is today, be they veterans or newcomers. No one person, or even a small group of people, can change things, though. At least not the way they want to change them.

I wonder what's ahead. Whatever it is, the friendships I've made here will last, and the music will go on.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: bbc
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:16 AM

Jeri, my impression is that 2 crises solidified the change from impersonal to personal here at Mudcat. Yes, we had started to get interested in knowing who the others on the site were, but it was catspaw's medical emergency & Max claiming that Mudcat was ending that caused us to realize that we deeply care about Mudcat's existence & the folks we know through it. Frankly, I don't know if there are other sites w/ this level of community. I hope there are or will be. I've thought, for sometime, that this is a very positive use of the Internet

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,Toledo
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:21 AM

Well, let me be the first not to preach to the choir.

I don't think Mudcat is an authentic community in the 3D sense, and I've been a community activist for most of my adult life. I've also participated in on-line "community music forums" for about ten years.

I also don't see Mudcat as being "more special" than other groups, especially rec.music.folk, the only other on-line community music forum with a similar subject focus. People from that newsgroup meet, have gotten to know one another, share stories and discuss politics, just as people do here.

People have stomped out of there over flame wars too, some return, some never come back.

It seems to me the real problem currently with Mudcat is that it's become a bit too inbred. A lot of regulars here seem to only frequent this forum, rather than visit a number of on-line music forums. They seem naive, and maybe a bit too insular.

Two things have driven me out of Mudcat repeatedly in the last six months though. The level of personal banter (that isn't what I'm here for) about individual's problems, and the way I saw Bruce Olson treated. I've ducked in and out over summer to see if either circumstance has changed. It seems neither has.

While the exodus of people with depth and breadth of knowledge about the music may not bother the "our community is so special" types, it DOES bother me. I come to Mudcat for music, not community.

Which means I come less and less often.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: gnu
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:41 AM

I wouldn't know the difference because this is the only forum/chatroom/whatever, that I have ever been in. I stumbled upon the 'Cat because I was looking for musical help that I couldn't find elsewhere. What I found was far beyond mere knowledge. I found a group, group discussions and group dynamics that would take me too much cyberspace to praise. In short, I don't feel a need to go anywhere else. I'm home and I like it... they even let me say "bodhran".

P.S. Thanks to each and every one of you for making the 'Cat what it is.

gratefulgnu

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Cobble
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:42 AM

Mine is short and sweet, but without this marvellous group of people and all there different subject matter where would the song writers among us find new subjects. Keep it up your all brilliant.

Thanks to Bill Sables for getting me hooked on Mudcat . Cobble.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 11:00 AM

Ah, but gnu, is your bodhran too tight?**BG**

kat

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,traddles
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 11:14 AM

"Gargoyle" Bobbie? Oh, Lord no!

First of all, I spent 15 minutes checking my spelling and syntax to the best of my ability, but more importantly, the obvious joy he gets from from his attacks would be anathema to me. I know he loves traditional music, but his cynicism towards people makes me quite sad. Thanks Bill, by the way.

There's no mystery or attempt to deceive here. I'm a typical long time opinionated Mudcatter, who's tried to contribute as much as I could in the areas I felt appropriate. Unlike the last 'guest' poster in the 'merely guest' thread, I've been very lax for a long time in the 'personal security' department, so decided to add some 'detachment' to my views. I'm obviously very pro-Mudcat, and that can engender some real nastiness these days. Whether it comes from 10 'guests' or one guest posting ten different ways, it takes away from the 'positives', and in my case, just makes me lose interest in the thread.

Completely in a different direction, I spent over an hour last night jotting down the names (or Mudcat 'handles') of the people still with us who are tremendously knowledgeable in several areas of folk music. I stopped at thirty, and I've no doubt that another hour's checking would have revealed at least another thirty. I'm talking about people who write succinctly and with clarity, quoting names, dates, places, hows, whens and whys. At different times I've accepted without question the point that some make about the 'real' folkies leaving Mudcat because of the 'bullshit'. I suspect now, that it's a very small number, and may well include people who simply don't think that 'folk music' goes beyond traditional balladry. Fair enough. I can see why they'd be very frustrated here. The argument that 'there's nobody left here who knows anything about folk music' is simply untrue. Mudcat may have it's share of 'casual folkies', but I'll bet that 90% of them want to, and HAVE learned a lot here. I think that's good enough for most of us.

traddles

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 11:27 AM

Looks like I can't stay away - guess my attempt at leaving was unsuccessful so from my view point, I guess the Mudcat still has more for me that I thought it did...

Is Mudcat like all the others? I doubt if any of us can honestly answer that. I suspect Mudcat is unusual in it's very open policy but I doubt that this is the only site where freindships have developed... even the Paltalk "live and unplugged" rooms organised a web site with pictures of members, other information and I believe either have held or intend holding a gathering of participants, the alt.banjo newsgroup is currently working on a project where a CD will be made from recordings of various users of the group - amazing co-operation (and for what they propose as $10 should be great value)...

Mudcat friendship is real to me and I value the people I have met here Here are some recent personal examples of what I hae found here: disregarding my comments about the music on the night I went to the Jug, I met great people, genuine real hugs, Bill Sables (he told my mum) really wanted me to see the friendships in person, Micca greated me with a picture of "MY" dog sent to me from Jenellen..., I needed a specific sound card - Micca gave me the one I needed and someone else offered to complete a transaction on EBbay for me if I found a suitable card and the seller would only ship to the US, I talked about possibilites of getting to the Getaway and an anonymous Mucatter sent me a sum of money in dollars to help me, when I announced I was leaving, I had a few personal messages from people wanting to keep in touch and giving me email contacts - some I didn't even expect and had not entered into much if any personal correspondence with...

I guess what I'm trying to say is freindship here can be incredible and I would say that the kindness of some here has run beyond anything I could ever forsee but I also think it is probably wrong to think that Mudcat is the only place where such things happen - in my case, the closest friend I have in Mudcat was acutally "met" on the rec.music.celtic forum before I joined here.

OK, so why would someone like me who sees so much good here decide to opt out? It is certainly true (as I think spaw suggested) that there is more going on in my life and for the better now than there was even 4 months ago so maybe my need reduced (if that is the case, Mudcat did fill a need no longer reqired). It would also be fair to say that I'm not fond of the priorities as given by Jeri above (I see it that way music has become secondary) but I can live with that. We get flamers and trollers but so what? Mudcat gets away lightly!...

What I was failing to handle was the constant resurgance of old topics and the circular patterns which seem to me more symtomatic of matters that are always lying under the surface and, after a flare up, die down to be rekindled, involve members fighting members and no real resolution and I suspect more bitterness creeping in under the surface.

I have taken an experimental step in view of the last problem re healing threads. I have just bought 40Mb of web space which can handle forums (ASP/ODBC compliant). Is anyone interested in trying to take any of the more contentious areas like healing threads off the Mudcat main forum but keeping them (I'm quite happy to impose a condtion on membership) only for the use of Mudcatters? If so, let me know and I'll see what can be worked out.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,Toledo
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:01 PM

I think friendships are formed all the time in online forums. But that doesn't mean that on-line communities are authentic communities in the 3D sense.

In other words, I don't have to find a way to get along with the users here on a daily basis the way I do in 3d life at work, at home, and at play. One does have to do that in an authentic community.

I've always maintained that the best security one can have is knowing and having good neighbors. That is why I participate every year in my block's National Night Out. Those relationships allowed one of my neighbors to call 911 and sit with one of our elderly neighbors with a drinking problem, who they had found passed out in the alley during the heatwave, rather than keep driving and look away. That sense of community (and acceptance of our elderly neighbors faults) saved that man's life.

I appreciate that it is wonderful to get the attention some people are getting on-line in this and other groups. It is nice to receive the get well cards, the gifts we sometimes share with on-line friends, and meeting in each other face to face.

But it still doesn't mean this, or any other on-line "community" is or can be the same as authentic 3D community. Unless of course the forum is local, and the users are interacting in 3D all the time, with the on-line community supporting the 3D community.

That is all I meant. I wouldn't want to suggest that people aren't forming real friendships, because a few are. But the majority of users don't. And I think it is important to recognize the difference between friendship and community.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:07 PM

wow, Jon...It's not my thing, but what a nice offer!...I'm not sure how 'going off-site' would work, but it's sure an idea!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,me
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:40 PM

I come here to interact with people as well as for the music. But I need to do it as myself. I have found that there is a lot of pressure from the "comunity" people to make everyone's behavior conform to the norms of the group. If you want this place to be the best it can be, let people be themselves. Even if who they are doesn't conform to your ideas of "what the mudcat is all about". Othewise it is just a clique, and not a community of individuals.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 01:19 PM

A lot of regulars here seem to only frequent this forum, rather than visit a number of on-line music forums. They seem naive, and maybe a bit too insular.

Well maybe that's true. But I've never found one yet remotely comparable. Maybe if I had the patience to struggle past finding my way round news groups like alt.music.folk and rec.music.folk, I might find something comparable, but I haven't so far.

I think Max's design of the site, and his hands off approach to running it, has been the key factors in helping people to come together and develop what we've got here.

I've just come back from a week at Sidmouth Folk Festival. There really is an enormous amount in common between the kind of detached community you get at such events, with people who only see each other on rare occasions and make music and talk about music and anything else that's on their mind, and the Mudcat. No it's not the same as a 3D local community, but then a mandolin isn't the same as a concertina, and they can be played together very effectively.

Seriously, if anyone think they have found something which does come within striking distance of the Mudcat, tell us about it. Whether it centres round folk music or anything else. If they do exist, maybe we could learn something from them.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 01:53 PM

Good thread. better than others of it's ilk. I have to agree with "Guest Toledo" (I've never had a problem with "guest postings") about good 3D neighbours being important. Heather and I have been blessed with wonderful neighbours. When they're away, we watch out for them, and vice versa. makes you feel decently secure.

But I gotta say that the "community feel" here comes a close second to our 3D friends, neighbours, and music buddies. I'm trying to work out a British tour right now (with the help of a couple of professional music Mudcatter friends) and if you don't think part of the fun is gonna be trying to meet folks like Jon, McGrath, Roger the Skiffler, and the people who go to the "JUG" you're wrong. By the way "JUG folks", Heather and I WON'T take up much space, and I NEVER talk while the music's playin'!

Not sure what you mean "Guest Me" about "conforming". What's to "conform to"? This has always struck me as a pretty divergent group ranging from New Age Birkenstock lefties, to hard ass tough guys. (and occasional tough gals!) We've got folks who obviously believe that politeness counts, and those that wouldn't say "please or thank you" if they fell in it. We've got those who pray for everything and those who's only prayer is that they don't get messages from the former. There's at least a few who'll listen when I rail on about the minutiae of old time country and Bluegrass music, weird chords, and adventures from the road. Many could care less. So what?

If there's any pressure to conform to something (other than not being a horse's ass) I don't see it.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,me
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:06 PM

It's there, Rick. If you don't see it it's because you already conform to the norms of the group. This thread can be a healing thing if people are allowed to express their feelings politely as I have done, without having their feelings invalidated. Clearly, your experience has been different than mine. But that doesn't mean that I have not experienced what I said.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:24 PM

Guest Toledo points out to us that Mudcat is not a 3D community, a fact that many of us I am sure agree with. My interpretation of this remark, made by others in the past,is that Mudcatters exist only in this world, are fixed to their screens 24 hours a day and take no part in real life. This as we know is complete cack and I never know why the comparison keeps being made. I have neighours, we look after our old folk, I visit the sick and infirm do charitable work blah blah -for some of the time I am actually a real person who happens to love this site and enjoy friendships with many of the people here. If you want to level criticism of the site, then please let it not be that it's not the real world - neither is TV or Hollywood its boing to be reminded of it!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:40 PM

Hi "guest me" (I assume you're female 'cause the guys I know rarely use the term "validate'). Sometimes I speak in a flippant manner, that can sound like I'm trivializing something that may be very important to someone else. That's not the intent, and I apologize if it came out that way. You're right of course, all our experiences are different.

Rick

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,Toledo
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:42 PM

Ickle Dorrit.

We do keep mentioning it because some of us are completely baffled by some who seem live on this site 24/7.

Surely you aren't suggesting that some people who frequent Mudcat might not have internet addictive personalities (I'm trying to be delicate here)?

Rick,

Please understand I don't mean this as criticism, but you are pretty heavily invested in Mudcat, what with the radio show and all. And I'm happy it is here as a resource for professional and semi-professional musicians to get in touch with promoters and dj's, hawk their wares, etc.

I can't judge how useful Mudcat is for those folks, or compare it to other forums in that regard, because I don't use any of the forums to conduct business. I consider it to be perfectly legitimate to use the forum in that way, but I think those who are invested like that, and who benefit from Mudcat's presence, might have a slightly prejudiced point of view, shall we say?

With kind regards.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 03:02 PM

I have scouted around many other groups over the years, some similar to this, and it is true (a) that some of the specialized groups certainly meet and build friendships; and (b) that other groups think they have a special kind of community. But I have often recommended this site to professional sociologists (one or two who work on Internet communities) because it does have some unique features.

One of the unique features is the ease of communication, which is entirely attributable to Max's design. I keep saying this, and it remains true.

Another unique feature is that the ethos of community is built up on the ethos of folk music, and has its own style of camaraderies, allowance for novices, spectators, and experts. It is that mix that is unique, as far as I know. Other sites are either open, or expert. This one has a kind of "semi-selective" quality which is fascinating.

Which brings me to the fact (as pointed out as if it were a criticism above) that there are indeed rules here, and regulars, and so on. The rules are rules of what one could call "open manners". Every site that works, just like every community that works, has some customs to keep it from flying apart or descending into bloodshed. I see no reason to apologise for the fact that over 5 years this site has evolved implicit manners. Because this is a virtual community, it needs more manners, not less, because the only thing we have to work with are words at a distance. The fact is that they have been tested and bitched about, and whenever people go too far past them, everyone goes "Oh, that's why we avoided doing that!" They are not arbitrary, they are the results of experience: how far off the chart can you go without wrecking what is both a resilient and a fragile sense of community. As a result, it is easy to vandalise this place temporarily; not so easy to crash it permanently when there are people to pick up the litter and mend the fences, and so on.

This is an old debate -- how much order do you need before you stifle vibrant originality and turn regulars into repressors? If you aren't a vandal, I haven't seen any evidence that anyone has been shut out. People get bored, disappointed, and leave, maybe. On balance, this place seems to have it about o.k. for the moment: it is easy to forget that anybody in the world can walk in here any time, shit, and leave. It is a quasipublic place, like chessplaying in the park. If the game or games don't interest you, or not much, you walk on. It is only selective in that sense. The space creates its own boundaries of interest and committment.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 03:22 PM

Hi "Guest Toledo".

I do indeed consider I have an investment here, but I assure you it's in the time I spend, and has virtually nothing to do with my radio show, or for the most part any of the things I do to earn a living. The radio show information has been out of date for years! I did send in two or three shows, but that became difficult to do when some equipment was changed at the station, and although it's been mentioned a few times nobody's changed the "10 o'clock" time slot. It never mattered much to me 'cause if people want to hear it on realaudio they can. If someone else starts a thread on it (or a gig or tour notice), I'll respond, but I've never been comfortable with self-promotion....not even in the 3D world where I SHOULD do it, ha Ha!

I used to get up in the morning, read the paper, drink tons of coffee, and then clean my studio (or something else equally practical)....now I do the coffee and paper and head straight to Mudcat! Maybe it's more ADDICTION than investment!

P.S. I spend too much time on "Red Hot Jazz" and History websites as well!

Rick

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 03:42 PM

"......but I think those who are invested like that, and who benefit from Mudcat's presence, might have a slightly prejudiced point of view, shall we say? "

*sigh*...there are indeed a few folks who derive part of their income from music, and who very well may 'benefit' slightly as a side effect of knowing more people and getting plugged by their friends....BUT, the very implication that Rick Fielding is 'prejudiced' or does anything differently here as a result sort of burns me!. He gives & helps and & jokes and chats & frets as one of us...not as a 'beneficiary'.....it is simply not a fair thing to say....it didn't need to BE said...and it makes me sad that anyone would suggest it....

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 03:44 PM

Peter T,

I just can't agree that because you like Mudcat better than rec.music.folk, that means that Mudcat actually is better than rec.music.folk.

I can agree that Mudcatters like Mudcat better than any other forum. You are, of course, free to express your subjective opinion, just not to claim it as an objective "fact" or "truth" as you seem to be doing here.

Problem I have with some Mudcatters (and it is only some) is they don't seem to have tried anything else, so have nothing to compare Mudcat to. They have limited experience, which colors their judgment at times.

I prefer the company of the cosmopolitan types more than the provincial types though. But that is just my taste. I don't try to make it one size fits all.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 04:04 PM

It's an online community and for many it has similar friendships as in 3-D. Some also meet regularly and many have phone conversations on a regular basis.

and yeah......I go other places on the net.....and I have a 3-D life. I am well aware of how much I'm here, but I also have plenty of other things happening in the real world as well.

Lessee.......Today, I worked on my motorcycle, ran to the store, talked to my maw-in-law, and Karen and I sanded and painted the floor in an upstairs bedroom we are converting to a small art studio for my son Michael. I watched the end of a NASCAR race and have supper ready to go into the oven. I'm going to watch the Unlimited Hydro Gold Cup races from Detroit and after supper we have another couple coming over. Tomorrow I need to cut the grass, continue with the laundry and the new room, and maybe we'll take the afternoon and run up to Columbus for a COSI visit.

Since Karen works nights and sleeps days, there are times I am here more than others, but no....I don't live here permanently. When I check e-mail, I always check the 'Cat, and at times when I can't sleep, I can generally find a few threads to take part in.

Spaw

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 04:12 PM

Nowhere in my remarks do I say that Mudcat is better than rec.music.folk., or lots of other places. I said that it is unique and fascinating, and I recommend it to people. That is an objective fact or truth, which is more than can be said of your remarks.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 06:12 PM

I've subscribed to rec.music.folk for a few years, and I've never seen "Hey, why doesn't everyone who subscribes to this group, and can make it, plan on coming to my house on 3 & 4 Octember." I've never had anyone call me on the phone because I met them there. I have made friends through that group, and have been offered floor space, but that's between individuals, not a group-as-a-whole thing.

Note that I'm not saying it's better, just different. I'm on a couple of e-mail lists as well. I would describe relationships as cordial but somewhat distant - also not better but different. There are enough "places" on the internet for folks to find one or more with the qualities they like and spend whatever time they want there.

Ickle, the problem may be the way we define "community," and it may just be an American usage. Mainly what I mean is a group of people with a common interest and some feeling of group identity. We have friends within this "community," people we don't know very well and some we probably don't agree with and maybe even dislike. We help each other and squabble in ways we wouldn't if we were just a bunch of unconnected individuals. We often know more about each other than I think some people care for.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 06:39 PM

Last night th twins woke at 12.30 (just after midnight) They spent all night kicking us out of bed in their sleep. We didn't get much rest. During the day they occupy most of our time.
We do not get the opportunity to seek out a 3-D community. About all we manage beyond an occasional visit to the Jug is here. At the 3-D music session there is very little opportunity to actually converse with the other participants. We chat more with Mudcatters via the forum and on Paltalk or ICQ than we are allowed to do with any of the so-called real world.
Is the Mudcat a community? It reminds me of some pubs which I used to frequent. There are people who prop up the bar and spout to anyone who will listen. There are those who talk to you because you are there. There are others who really care about who you are and what interests you. Some just come for a pint and to relax. We all have our own reasons and expectations. That is a big part of what defines a community to me. You may be in hyperspace, but at least those who care belong to the same world!
Quack!
Geoff the Duck!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:02 PM

Guest Toledo, you have my word, I do not sit 24/7 at my computer screen.Normally I work 60-70 hours a week , go to folk clubs 2 to 3 times a week ,spend two to three night trying to work out why I keep tryng to master my watercolour technique when I'm so crap at it,and occasionally(very occasionally) spend the odd hour with my husband. Coronation street/ east enders occupies 3 hours a week and I do a bit of songwriting in the moments in between taking the dog out and the odd spot of housework. (It's not much of a life for some -but frankly it pays the mortgage!) I tend to mudcat for five minutes or so at a time and go back to it when I need a break from something else (another work of art has ended up in the bin tonight!) There may be some who spend more time here -but frankly that's there choice and since it ain't a crime I don't think I or anyone else should patronise them for it.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:11 PM

I Have seen Ickle Dorrit at a few different folk clubs (we live in the same city), I have also seen Ickle Dorrits artwork it is very good

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:17 PM

Shucks John I'm touched. Didn't see ya last night matey, were you working ?-Bill Sables and Cobble came -it was an excellent night.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:22 PM

Once again, if anyone's found a website which can measure up to the Mudcat, please give us the blue clickies or the address. I'm sure I'm not the only person who'd like to visit them. (Websites, rather than news groups or mailing lists, unless someone has found a way of making them as easy to get round as the Mudcat.)

And I'm not being in any way sarcastic. With millions on millions of websites out there, it'll be a miracle if this turns out to be the only one that has the kind of qualities that I'm looking for. A bit like looking out at the stars and thinking, this can't be the only planet with intelligent life. But if space travel was as easy as Internet communication, and nothing had turned up you'd start thinking, maybe this really is the only game in town.

And there is something a bit miraculous about the Mudcat - it's rather the way the experts used to say that by all the science they knew, there was no way that Bumble Bees could possibly fly. Buzzz.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 08:10 PM

Ickle dorrit-Yes I was working, I could not manage to get a night off :-(
Is anybody going next week or are you all at Whitby/The Shanty thing? Cheers.john

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: toadfrog
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 09:34 PM

Well, this is the only online group I've ever joined, and likely the only one I will join; one doesn't have unlimited time for such. Having been here only a short time, and personally knowing only 4-5 members, I feel generally very positive about it.

I'm not absolutely sure exactly what this thread is about. To the extent it consists of talking about how wonderful and unique and special our community or whatever is, I don't see too much point in such a discussion.

On the other hand, one very positive thing about Mudcat is the general level of courtesy and the existence of the unwritten "rules" GUEST Traddles seems to be defending. I appreciate the usual absence of flaming and the close eye the "regulars" keep on activity. And I respectfully submit that if indeed Mudcat is special or unique or whatever, that has a whole lot to do with the wisdom, courtesy and dedication of a few individuals --like Joe Offer and Pene Azul, to name some obvious names and not to slight others who I know less about.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 11:38 PM

you know, I've got it...all these people who feel part of a community just have changed the usual order a bit.

If the various Mudcatters had all known each other, and lived near each other....then moved apart, we would simply hail this new technology as a way to keep up with old friends..(and it really DOES work that way in many cases).

The fact that many of us discovered we liked 'hanging out' together, and THEN met RT, is just a circumstance! I know lots of people who have re-discovered family members and long-lost friends this way.....so what is so strange about sharing an interest...THEN meeting? No, not everyone who posts on Mudcat feels like zapping off to mix their lives with personalities they met in a music forum...and not everyone does it in the same ways or intensities....but it HAS become a larger, more rewarding life for many. Eudcational, for durn sure!...and I'm sure mistakes have been made, and will be again...just like life.

Think about this...there was once a time when people had 'pen-pals' ...and made friends and even fell in love and planned marriages by snail-mail.

No one description fit us all, but as this internet/WWW thing keeps going, the very concept of what constitutes a 'community' is changing...maybe we are just one of the first of the new ones, hmmm?