BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:35 PM

What about our chiildren, he did this and I did that ...

... this is the argumentative logic of my daughter in the playground.

In such situations I tell both children to stop being naughty.

In this case, 195 children have been killed and it is a disgrace and may those who killed them burn in hell.

I didn't say palestinian children, I said children.


Do you see them as "different children"?


He made me do it. - doesn't wash.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:40 PM

But I don't feel the burn of tears till I consider those who survive but are mutilated ...

... and yet it continues ...

... is continuing ...

... and those survivirs are in pain and in fear ...

... no guarantee that you will survive the seond time - especially when hospitals and schools are legitimate targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:43 PM

Why is everyone feeding the bearded troll? Does anyone imagine that they will be the one to evince a damascene conversion - that their particular post will cause him to throw up his hands and cry, "I was wrong"?
This thread is in danger of turning into another WalkaboutsVerse tit for tat. Just let it drop - BB will continue to post stuff from the world as he sees it, and if sensible folk ignore it then no harm done. It's only a web site, for Pete's sake, and it's only the opinion of one man. I really wouldn't think the world's statesmen are refreshing our screens as we type, waiting for the next pearl from the selective cut'n'paste maestro.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM

Extract from one of my favourite columnists, Michele Hanson, in today's Guardian:

I'm on my dog walkie and I meet an acquaintance with her dog. We are both Jewish. Naturally I mention Israel, now that it is bombing the hell out of Gaza. This is not good for the Jews. First Bernie Madoff, Wall Street financier and swindler, now this. Our name will be mud. But I like this woman. She is personable, friendly, witty, bright. We often talk about our children and families. I assume she will agree with me, so I say that Israel must be mad. They must stop their attack at once, this is not going to help anyone.

But my friend does not agree. "They have to defend themselves," she says. "Hamas keep firing rockets."

"Because Israel is illegally occupying Palestine. It must get its settlements out of the West Bank ... blah, blah, blah." Why argue? I can tell I'm not going to get anywhere. How are Israel and Palestine to agree if we cannot? Clear as day to me. Clear as day the other way round to her, and apparently to the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and most newspapers. None of them mentions the bloody settlements. I watch the news, I listen carefully, I wait for the reporters to ask the Israeli leaders, ministers and representatives, "What about the illegal settlements? When are they going to be dismantled? When can the Palestinians have their land back? What about the wall? The siege/blockade of Gaza? The democratic choice of Hamas? The death of 1,700 Palestinians in Gaza in the last three years since the Israelis 'pulled out'? When will the checkpoints be opened?" Not a peep.

"Where is Tony Blair in all this?" asks Rosemary. "Isn't he meant to be sorting it out?" Yes. He's just back from holiday and he's going to do it without talking to Hamas, and probably without making too much fuss about settlements. I would laugh, but I can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:46 PM

If there are children there, ask why- and ask it of HAMAS.

The Israeli's have just shelled a UN school killing thirty people. The UN spokesperson said the Israelis have the co-ordinates of all the UN places which are supposed to be respected.

"The Hamas were sheltering behind civilians" say the Israelis. Nothing new there.

Remarkable when they shell such places they manage to kill the women and kids and still miss the Hamas.

It is simply slaughter. Let's stop pretending it is anything else. Are the Israeli soldiers just obeying orders?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:52 PM

Because I've read many of his posts over many years, and communicated with him over a small number too.

I like the guy and feel very strongly that he is a good hearted intelligent sincere man.

I don't se him as any type of troll.

I do feel also that he has fortified his view of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict with piles of information which serves as a big indomitable unbreachable wall of logic.

I believe that on this issue, he has developed a siege mentality and as such is prepared, like Israel, to take on all comers without budging or flinching.

He does care about those children, but can't see them as to do so would weaken the defence in his argumental wall.

We cannot show mercy or we shall perish.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:02 PM

600-9.

This is just another genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:07 PM

I see the children, and ache for their pain. I wish they were not harmed- but I hold Hamas responsible, just as I would hold a drunk bus driver responsible for the kids he might hurt if he drives irresponsibly.


But I note that there were no wails of horror when the Hamas rockets hit the Palestinian children, or the suicide bomber blew up the Israeli children's party. It seems that ONLY JEWS are hel;d reponsible, even when it is someone else's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:20 PM

Those were also tragedies BB and my heart goes out to those children and their families.

What's more, the people who committed those murders are criminals.

But for the same reason that a stabbing in London gets less Media attention than a Gunman in Dunblaine, so there is more attention on this than on those.

This is not one incident - it is a massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:23 PM

Sorry - the key point -

This massacre is happening now.

We aren't talking about something that happened, but something that is happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:25 PM

"I see the children, and ache for their pain."
It's just words, isn't it!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:27 PM

"Palestine is not a Muslim country, and it has never been the intention of the Palestinians that it should be." – So says CarolC.

In saying that she is almost correct, what she omits to mention is that that was also the founding intention of the League of Nations. Great Britain knew full well that there would be problems with that from the Arabs who lived in the Mandated territory known as Palestine as declared in 1921 – THAT Palestine consisted of Gaza; what is now known as Israel; the area now known as the West Bank and all of what is now known as Jordan.

In 1923 to avoid the foreseen problems with territories mandated for administration and oversight by France and the United Kingdom two areas were set up specifically to establish refuge for minorities, the French established the Lebanon and the British broke off 23% of the original Palestinian Mandated Territory calling this area Palestine, the remaining 77% of the original area was given to the Palestinian Arabs and called Trans-Jordan. While anyone could purchase land in the new Palestine which consisted of Gaza; what is now known as Israel and the area now known as the West Bank, only Arabs could own land in Trans-Jordan.

Now this multicultural, secular, religious-tolerant acreage did not suit the Muslims (predominantly Arabs) who lived in the new Palestine and so steps forth self aggrandized "Grand Mufti of Jerusalem" – Yasser Arafat's Uncle – He derived his power and wealth from devout Muslims and he wanted those loyal devout dupes to control the country as a means of ensuring his continued wealth – A trait that ran strong in that family going on Yasser's later performance. Hence his campaign of lies that fomented Arab violence on the Jewish citizens of Palestine from 1920 to 1947 – the acts of violence and terrorism that CarolC denies ever happened. What Carol's "Palestinians" are fighting for now is precisely what they were offered by the United Nations in 1947 and rejected out of hand. Had they accepted those terms in 1947 there would of course have been no displaced persons, there would have been no "Right of Return" issues. The other "crack-in-the-plaster" that is being conveniently papered over is that Hamas will never recognize Israel's right to peaceful co-existence, the Jewish State of Israel is an offense against the world of Islam – You cannot negotiate with people who are committed and determined to annihilate you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:32 PM

but I hold Hamas responsible

I dont hold jews responsible - I hold the people who ordered this and who fired the shells responsible.

As I do for all the other shells.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:33 PM

""I see the children, and ache for their pain."
It's just words, isn't it! "

No Ake - its the vulnerable man in the middle of the fortress.

Excuse my arrogance, but in my view the post to which you refer is a model example.

The vulnerable man is sitting safe and in the dark surrounded by an impenetrable wall of denial on the inside, and blame on the outside.

If the drunk driver were about to drive over a cliff then the analogy would be fair, but that isn't how things are.

The drunk driver is driving towards a well equipped technologically advanced state, which, rather than try and help the children, has chosen to kill the driver and accept the loss of the children as collateral damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:35 PM

Like I said, with explanation, on the "other thread", Israel is acting like a dupe nation that has just fallen for trickery and is now less secure...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:38 PM

"Israel is an offense against the world of Islam – You cannot negotiate with people who are committed and determined to annihilate you."

Oh shit - well in that case maybe Israel should just nuke them - as after all - if one is alive they will make it their purpose to destroy Israel.

Your logic mate.

And if you don't think they should all be destroyed then what alternative do you see?

Talking?

Cos thats the choice.

Killing or Talking.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:42 PM

They're just enjoying the last bit of unquestioning loyalty tat they can hope for from the USA.

If right wing Americans don't trust "muslim" Obama then right wing Israelis sure as hell won't.

If he ain't gonna be for us then he must be against us and all that.

Not to mention that his middle name is Hussein...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:44 PM

Last year Bruce, 50 people died and hundreds more were injured bt Israel's hands on the West Bank.

Now tell me how many rockets were fired from the West Bank?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:45 PM

"Those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad" - Euripides.

Seems to apply pretty well to this situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:52 PM

They've *all* gone mad.

It's not 'one side or the other' any longer, just a combined collection of soldiers and leaders who have seemingly lost their humanity together.


"Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Martin Luther King Jr.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:03 PM

Bravo lizzie !!

I agree .. it has gone mad ... tragic lunacy

with that I'm outta here.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:28 PM

Can someone tell me why it is that all we see on our news is maimed and dead children in Gaza? Why do we not see the victims of the rockets that lad in Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:58 PM

I'm gonna start this with a shout-out to Bearded Bruce who is acquitting himself nobly in a noble and worthwhile cause, taking upon himself the slings and arrows of outraged self-righteousness on the part of many others. BB, It's twenty below zero outside and I'm reading this thread in order to get my temperature up. I appreciate what you've got to say and for the most part agree with it. It's a shame some of the folks in this thread have chosen to treat you with condescension, but buck up. They didn't say anything for the Tutsis, for the oppressed of Darfur, for the Georgians, for Baghdadi Shiites, but let a Hamas leader get killed while in the bowels of his family, all hell breaks loose. I''d rather not follow that line of thought much further, it'll get me depressed and bring down the temperature.

Without getting into the name-blame bizness, I'm duty bound to alert y'all of the usual: Some of you might not like Israel being there, but it's there, it's a real country for several generations now, and it wishes to protect its borders and citizens. It's the only democratic country in the area, (except Iraq and Afganistan for the time being). If this causes you tsores, look elsewhere for sympathy. I'm proud as hell of Israel and what it has accomplished in sixty years.

One person maintained that Hamas honored their cease-fire commitments, even when they were firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian parts of Israel, as they have been doing throughout the recent unpleasantness. This is patently untrue and simply a means of taking sides irrespective of whatEVER Hamas does. It is perhaps true that Hamas honored the truce by Hamas terms. Just as Two years ago Hamas was executing members of Fatah in the streets and publicly taking apart, literally, folks accused of being collaborators. Peace, government, justice on Hamas terms.

Israel could just be bombing Gaza into the stone age. Instead they are sending their men into harms' way. This happened in Ramallah in 2002 and there was a lot of bleating about it, without a critical view of many of the claims being made about Palestinian casualties, which proved to be overstated and phony.

A poster above only counts Palestinian alleged child casualties and defines everything based on that. They must've been a real wildman during the Rwandan massacres.

Another would be more at ease if only the Israelis were suffering more casualties. Somehow that make it more palatable to this person. I think it is disgusting. It's bad enough that any children are in harm's way, but it would do far more to justice to review WHY they are in harm's way and who put them there.

Rocket after rocket has pounded into Israeli communities for years. This is under Hamas direct oversight and is part of Hamas policy. Hamas policy is not merely one of land for Palestinians, It is juden raus. Why is it that Israel has Christian and Muslim citizens but Jews and Christians are not equals in most Arab countries? If you are accused of trying to convert a Muslim or of defaming Mohammed your life is in jeopardy. And to repeat what Bearded Bruce and a few others have said cogently and correctly, why is it that Israel must resettle displaced Jews AND displaced Arabs?

Abba Eban famously said: "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." Israel marched out of Gaza pretty much unilaterally three years ago. There was opportunity with a capital "O". Is the situation we see now caused by Israel or Hamas? I see it as unequivically Hamas.

FWIW, among the crowd I work with, comments run the absolute reverse of many on this thread. It's been intimated that I'm a Palestinian lover, to which I reply, "What do you mean, I AM a Palestinian!" The whole problem is the folks who refuse to see me as one, too!"

Robomatic, proud ZIONIST, proud Palestinian

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 01:22 AM

"Israel is an offense against the world of Islam – You cannot negotiate with people who are committed and determined to annihilate you."

Oh shit - well in that case maybe Israel should just nuke them - as after all - if one is alive they will make it their purpose to destroy Israel.

Your logic mate.

And if you don't think they should all be destroyed then what alternative do you see?" - Guest lox

The alternative Guest Lox is simple - Hamas have to publicly renounce the stated aims of their Charter, they have to renounce violence - then and only then is there a basis for discussion.

With regard to the situation in Northern Ireland the following had to be done before any negotiations were in any way, shape, or form, meaningful:

- Cessation and renunciation of violence on the part of the paramilitary groups.
- Agreement to decommission weapons in a manner that could be verified by independent third parties.
- The removal from the Constitution of Eire of it statement regarding it's right to govern the six northern counties known as Ulster.

The latter being required in order to set in concrete that the decision as to who "ruled" Northern Ireland would be entirely up to the people of Northern Ireland.

The Palestinian Authority and Fatah have grasped the fact that some things on their side have to change and have come to terms with it. In the West Bank they possibly cannot be seen to deal harshly with splinter groups or fundamentalist radicals - but Israel can (Again a parallel from Northern Ireland; the PIRA informed on and colluded with the Security services to assist in eradicating the INLA).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:23 AM

"Israel is an offense against the world of Islam"

No, it is the Extremist Militants within Islam itself who are an offence against Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:56 AM

By the way, whether or not any Arabs rejected the Partition Plan to steal their land from them is totally irrelevant to whether or not Israel had a right to take land that was not given to it in the Partition plan. Under the terms of the Partition Plan, Israel did not have a right to take any land other than what was given to it in the Partition Plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:03 AM

"The alternative Guest Lox is simple - Hamas have to publicly renounce the stated aims of their Charter, they have to renounce violence - then and only then is there a basis for discussion."

Oh of course - simple.

So um ... how do we get to that point then teribus?

Do we wait?

Maybe they'll do it as a new years present?

Or Maybe we should talk?

Or maybe there should be more Killing?

Whats it to be - talking or killing?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:45 AM

Here is a useful article by Avi Shlaim, a patriotic ex Israeli Army serviceman who went on to become a professor of international relations at oxford university.

Click here.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:17 AM

Everything that has already happened is completely irrelevant. The past is not a basis for any sort of discussion or negotiation, only the future. Until all parties draw a line, stop finger pointing and shouting "Yah-Boo" at one another, accept that what's happened can't be un-happened, and start to work out together how to prevent it happening again in the future, there is no future there.

Jaw-Jaw's what's needed, not War-War.

But don't hold your breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:10 AM

Kendall,

My overly long post ( apologies to all, esp. Joe) detailed some of the reasons. I will try to locate it an post the clickey to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:15 AM

http://www.thebulletin.us/articles/2009/01/05/herb_denenberg/doc4961c29b5ed1a649711765.txt



"The drunk driver is driving towards a well equipped technologically advanced state,"

No, the drunk bus driver is sideswiping cars, and running over the occasional bus stop, killing a few people each time. The police tried to shoot out the tires, and the bus crashed.

So blame the police.



Since Hamas took over Gaza, about 6000 rockets have been launced at Israeli civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:27 AM

Under the terms of the Partition Plan, the Arab League did not have the right to attack Israel, so there woyuld have been no refugees, would there.


You can't allow that the Arab League can attack a state, and that state NOT defend itself AND obtain secure borders against the Arab League.

Not unless you declare Jews to be subhuman, and not having the rights you insist on for Moslims.

Is that the case?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:38 AM

"If Israel were to withdraw to its pre 1967 borders is Hamas prepared to live in peace with the Jewish state?"

How bout they do it, and then we see what happens?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:44 AM

Play this at full volume, day and night, to both sides, until everyone gets the message!

Send it to every Palestinian and Israeli Radio Station, TV station.

...and could someone 'out there' please ask Pete Morton to put it on his Myspace page, because this song is important, moreso if the people who are living through this hell got to hear it, because it is the ORDINARY people of the Middle East who will bring the peace, not the military or the crazy, hating extremists.


The Two Brothers by Pete Morton

"I don't care who started it, I just want to hear you play
I just want to see you smiling in the glory of the day
Israel give his ball back, stop pulling his hair
Both of you, my sons, I know it isn't fair

I don't care who started it, just stop all the noise
I can see you're two very over-tired little boys
Palestine I saw you kick him, Israel sit still
Let us get some peace now, if you will

I don't care who started it, must I ask you again?
Put aside your anger, all the sorrow and all the pain
Throw away your struggles, clear the mess up from the floor
Don't want to hear you squabbling anymore

I don't who started it, just try and get along
Every time I here I come round here, there's always something wrong
One day in the future this won't mean a thing
One day in the future, as brothers, you'll sing

I don't care who started it, I just want to hear you play
I just want to see you smiling in the glory of the day"


Pete Morton - Main Site

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:07 AM

Hmmm... UN claims no militants at school.

"Chris Gunness, a spokesman for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, disputed Israel's account of the bombardment of the northern Gaza school. But he said that if anyone could clear up the remaining uncertainty, "We would like them to come forward and be part of an impartial investigation.""



CNN shows video of morter firing fron the yard of the school in question.



Impartial????

But then, the UN has yet to enforce the 2006 Lebanon Ceasefire ( except on Israel.)

Waiting on the UN demanding that Hezboallh release the two Israeli soldiers....



Stil waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:35 AM

The way I read it is, Hamas is not being supported by the other Arab nations because they are extremists, and the other Arab governments are afraid of them. My suspicion is, they want to see the nut cases wiped out and they are willing to stand back and let Israel do it.

Right or wrong, as long as Israel is able to defend itself there will not be another Holocaust.

It is heart breaking to see a little child killed by an Israeli bomb, but that poor child is no deader than the Jewish ones killed by a Hamas rocket.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:55 AM

A fair and reasonable assessment, Kendall.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:16 AM

Re West Bank rockets:


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55638


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51022


But shhh... As long as they kill only Jews it is ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

CNN shows video of morter firing fron the yard of the school in question.

It is now admitted that that video is two years old.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:33 AM

If Hamas really wants to kill Jews why don't they confront the Israeli army in open battle? It is certainly the act of a coward to shoot from cover and then hide behind their own women and children! The poor innocent people who die by Israel's hand also leave their blood on the hands of Hamas!
Hamas is quite willing to see it's own people slaughtered in hope that it will create outrage in the Arab world. The rockets were launched against Israel to effect that response and Israel has complied. There is more than enough blame to send leaders of both sides to Hell but they are not the ones to die! It is the innocent and helpless and this must stop!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 01:57 PM

Their tactics are similar to ours in the revolution. The colonists had no means to stand toe to toe with the redcoats, so they had to shoot from behind trees and rocks.
When Washington put an army together they did go face to face, and even though George lost nearly every battle he still won the war. We made the same mistakes in Viet Nam that the British made in America.
Voltaire was right.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM

but that poor child is no deader than the Jewish ones killed by a Hamas rocket.

True enough - but there for every one of those there are several hundred Palestinian kids.

The accusation about "using civilians as shields" is pretty hollow, since there appear to be no indications whatsoever that the IDF is ever deterred from firing or bombing by the presence of civilians.

No one would accept for a moment the IDF claim from any other terrorist organisation which tried to explain that civilian fatalities were the result of the other side "using civilians as shields".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:20 PM

You do not determine "righteousness" by counting the number of casualties!!!

If someone starts trouble against an obviously more powerful opponent, they may suffer out of proportion....no matter what their perceived 'cause!. In this conflict, that 'may' be one of the strategies to gain sympathy.

It makes no difference who has 'ultimate' right on their side..(does anyone think there is an 'ultimate' right anymore?)...*IF* you harass the big dog enough, it's going to try to bite you...you accept that!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:21 PM

Yup,the Israeli cause is covered in the blood and gore of Palestinian women and kids.

Hundreds dead and thousands seriously wounded.

Israel has now ordered the thousands residents of Raffeh in southern Gaza out of their homes by tomorrow because they intend to attack the neighbourhood probably with artillery fire and gunships but possibly with the very big bombs.

Less than helpfully, however, the Israelis have not told them where to go.

On one side is the sealed border, on another is the sea with Israeli warships lobbing shells when they see fit and to the north there are Israeli tanks and soldiers.Above them the Apache helicopters and the F16s are firing at will.

Somehow, when the mass murder is completed to Israel's satisfaction I cannot see the surviving Palestinians becoming any more "moderate "or having any faith in the western governments who armed Israel to the teeth and allowed them to the slaughter.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:26 PM

The video which has been presented as proof that there were people in that school firing mortars when it was targeted by the IDF yesterday was in fact made in October 2007 - at a time when the school was deserted, having been evacuated because of an Israel military operation.

See this report carried by Israel National News - UNRWA: We Don't Allow Terrorists in UN Schools

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:28 PM

"....I cannot see the surviving Palestinians becoming any more "moderate...."

No...I can't either, but I'd hope they got smarter about HOW to get some satisfaction in this mess...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

Israel carried out 40 airstrikes Wednesday on targets including smuggling tunnels on the Gaza-Egypt border, Israel's chief army spokesman Brig. Gen. Avi Benayahu said.

An Israeli combat officer, identified as Lt. Col. Amir, said troops neutralized hundreds of explosives devices, including booby-trapped houses.

Residents said 16 houses on the border were destroyed, with Israel presumably targeting buildings shielding tunnel entrances. Hamas had about 300 smuggling tunnels in the area before the offensive, and Israel has already destroyed dozens in repeated strikes.

Fida Kishta, an area resident, said she could hear sporadic shelling from F-16 planes.

"I feel like the ground is shaking when we hear the shelling. People are terrified," Kishta said.

In the evening, an Israeli warplane dropped leaflets over the Rafah refugee camp on the Gaza-Egypt border, urging residents to flee because of planned Israel strikes. Hamas has weapons smuggling tunnels in the area, and Israel has already destroyed dozens of them in airstrikes.

"Because Hamas uses your houses to hide and smuggle military weapons, the IDF will attack the area, between the Egyptian border until the beach road," the leaflet said, according a local U.N. official.

After the leaflets were dropped, about 5,000 fled to two U.N. schools turned into temporary shelters.

Despite the army's push, Gaza militants fired 14 rockets Wednesday, including hits on the cities of Beersheba and Ashkelon.

Rocket fire has fallen off somewhat as Israeli troops tighten their hold on Gaza, taking over open areas used to launch rockets, but Gaza residents say militants are still launching from heavily populated areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

You might hope it, but its rather more likely that some of them are going to get their satisfaction by seeking revenge against Israelis in general and Israeli sympathisers anywhere in the world.

This article in today's Guardian makes a lot of sense, it seems to me - Gaza after a Hamas rout will be an even greater threat to Israel:

"...from the rubble of Gaza, the attacks on Israel will surely resume. Hamas is too deeply rooted to disappear. New cells will arise, more filled with hatred and bent on revenge than ever. Already there are warnings of a return to suicide bombing, inside Israel and beyond. ...The great irony is that Israel may well decapitate Hamas - only to regret the passing of a Palestinian administration with sufficient stature to bring order..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

Israel has now ordered the thousands residents of Raffeh in southern Gaza out of their homes by tomorrow because they intend to attack the neighbourhood probably with artillery fire and gunships but possibly with the very big bombs.

Less than helpfully, however, the Israelis have not told them where to go.

Well they have fled to UN Schools. Makes em easier to hit by the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

War. The ultimate failure.