BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 07:12 PM

Mosab Hassan Yousef

Lots of interesting stuff about this guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:16 PM

Actions are more important than words. Hamas has said they are willing to abide by a decision of the Palestinian people if they vote for a two state solution. Their actions in this regard are far more important than their words.

The government of Israel has long said that they support a two state solution, but their actions show that they are not willing to agree to such a solution. And now, of course, their words also show that they aren't willing to agree to it.

It doesn't matter what Hamas says or what Israel doesn't say if their actions are different than their words. What matters is what they do. Not what they say or don't say.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:21 PM

Very few Israeli soldiers have been tried for their crimes, and even fewer of them have been punished.

Hamas actually did punish people who fired rockets into Israel during the cease fire last year.

But I wouldn't expect a racist like the poster with the ironic screen name to know anything about what any Palestinians do except for the hasbara propaganda they rely on to help them spread their racist message. (I like this thing about the poster with the ironic screen name not reading my posts. It's so liberating.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:23 PM

And now, to make this a musical thread, this, from Leonard Cohen...

QUESTIONS FOR SHOMRIM:


Written by Leonard Cohen   
Monday, 12 November 2007


And will my people build a new Dachau
And call it love,
Security,
Jewish culture
For dark-eyed children
Burning in the stars
Will all our songs screech
Like the maddened eagles of the night
Until Yiddish, Arabic, Hebrew, and Vietnamese
Are a thin thread of blood clawing up the side of
Unspeaking steel chambers
I know you, Chaverim
The lost young summer nights of our childhood
We spent on street corners looking for life
In our scanty drops of Marx and Borochov.
You taught me the Italian Symphony

And the New World
And gave a skit about blowing up Arab children.
You taught me many songs
But none so sad
As napalm falling slowly in the dark
You were our singing heroes in '48
Do you dare ask yourselves what you are now
We, you and I, were lovers once
As only wild nights of wrestling in golden snow
Can make one love
We hiked by moonlight
And you asked me to lead the Internationale
And now my son must die
For he's an Arab
And my mother, too, for she's a Jew
And you and I
Can only cry and wonder
Must Jewish people
Build our Dachaus, too?

-- Leonard Cohen, poem from 1970's

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:28 PM

'"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).'

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:29 PM

That is from the Hamas Charter--commentary thereon.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:34 PM

I see the poster with the ironic screen name has decided to read my posts after all.

As I said, it doesn't matter what the charter says if they agree to abide by the will of the Palestinian people if they vote for a two state solution. And they said they would. That's the only thing that really matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:36 PM

By the way, Hamas was not elected by a majority of Palestinian voters. Fatah had run two factions of its party in that election, so the votes were split three ways and not two ways. Hamas got less than fifty percent of the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 09:13 PM

Mosab Hassan Yousef, 30, said that his decision to abandon his Muslim faith and denounce his father's organisation [Hamas] had exposed his family to persecution in his home town of Ramallah and endangered his own life.

But despite the cost, Mr Yousef told The Daily Telegraph that he is convinced that speaking out about the problems of Islam and the "evil" he witnessed back home would help to address the "messed-up situation" in the Middle East and one day bring about peace and enable him to return.

"I'm not afraid of them, especially as I know that I'm doing the right thing, and I don't see them as my enemies," he said. "I do think about this a lot. But what are they going to do? Are they going to kill me?

"If they want to kill me, let them do it. I'm not going to stop anyone. It's going to be my freedom.

"My soul's going to be free of my body, not flesh any more."

Mr Yousef, who is known as Joseph by friends at the Barabbas Road church in San Diego, California, arrived in America 18 months ago but only recently made "the biggest decision of my life" to go public with his conversion to draw attention to how the Palestinian leadership is "misleading" and exploiting its people.

"Palestinians look really ugly in front of everybody in the world and they are very, very good people ... they are misled, and their picture is very dark because of this leadership.

"They need some help, they need people to stop lying to them, and lying to the world."

Mr Yousef was raised as a Muslim by his politically powerful family. His father, Hassan Yousef, a highly respected sheikh born in the West Bank town of al-Ghaniya near Ramallah, is a founding member of Hamas, whose military wing has instigated dozens of suicide bombings and other attacks against Israel since it was formed in 1987.

Hamas now governs the Gaza strip after ousting the more moderate Palestinian Authority led by Mahmoud Abbas, whose administration now only controls the West Bank.

Mr Yousef said that the decision to leave the home he loves and his family including five brothers and two sisters had made life hard for them.

"They are definitely suffering because of what I've done," he said. "They are not a regular family, they are a very famous family, and Muslims around the world praise my family, praise my father. So when I came with a step like this, it was impossible to think about, it was crazy.

"I knew from the beginning my family would face an impossible situation. It wasn't their choice but they have had to carry it with me. It's difficult for my mother, she's crying all day long. Every time I talk to her, she's crying."

His mother, Salsabin, told The Daily Telegraph that she and her children were "in daily contact with Mosab" but she declined to comment further on his new life.

Mr Yousef said that his father, who has spent more than a decade in Israeli jails for his involvement with Hamas, was in prison when he "got the worst news in his life" - that his son had become a Christian and left Ramallah. "But at the same time he sent me a message of love.

"Everybody is asking him to disown me. You understand if he disowns me he will give terrorists a chance to kill me. "He loves me as a son and he believes that what I've done was something I believed in, but at the same time it's very difficult for him to understand and he won't be able to understand."

Many saw him as heir apparent to his father, who retains great influence both within Hamas and in Palestinian society, winning election to the Palestinian Legislative Council in January 2006 from his prison cell.

But Mr Yousef said that his questioning of Islam and Hamas began early. His father, a pragmatist who has even suggested Hamas would be willing to talk to Israel under certain conditions, would often accept his concerns, such as the targeting of civilians.

Mr Yousef said that his doubts about Islam and Hamas crystallised when he realised not all Hamas leaders were like his father, a moderate who he describes as "open-minded, very humble and honest".

Mr Yousef said that he was appalled by the brutality of the movement, including the suicide bombers seeking glory through jihad.

"Hamas, they are using civilians' lives, they are using children, they are using the suffering of people every day to achieve their goals. And this is what I hate," he said.

It was after a chance encounter nine years ago with a British missionary that Mr Yousef began exploring Christianity.

He found it "exciting", he said, and began secretly studying the Bible, struck by the central tenet "love your enemies".

Nevertheless he does not advocate the "collapse of Islam", but rather for people to acknowledge that after 1,400 years "it's not working any more".

He said: "It's not taking them anywhere. It's making them look ugly."

He hopes that Muslims will begin to question their religion and "fix it" by rejecting the parts that call for "killing others, cutting hands, cutting legs, torturing people and asking for destruction of entire civilisations".

He said that after he converted to Christianity, he decided he had to escape and "live my life away from violence because I couldn't coexist with that situation as a Christian."

"I was thinking, what is my responsibility now? To see people dying every day or to stand up and say, this is wrong, this is right and be strong about this? So I had to make this move."

He plans to write a memoir about his "transformation" that he hopes will inspire others and to found an international organisation to educate young people about Islam and preach a message of "forgiveness", the only way he thinks "the endless circle of violence" between Israelis and Palestinians can be broken.

"I know this take a longer time, but this is the right way to do it, to build a new generation, a new generation who understand how to forgive, how to love."

It is a vision his new church shares. In a posting on the Barabbas Road website entitled "Joseph's story", the most unlikely member of the congregation is described as "a miracle" who left a society steeped in "brutal and bloody warfare" and instead "turned to Jesus".

"He is most certainly the face of things to come; an Ambassador to those oppressed by Islam. He is passionate about liberating his brothers and sisters from the darkness of a false religion, and living the truth that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light."

Back in the West Bank, however, many are distressed about his move.

"It is upsetting not only to his community and to his family but to all Muslims," said Abdel-Jaber Fuqaha, an Islamist parliamentarian and friend of the family who described Mr Yousef as "a straightforward, observant Muslim".

"But the worst impact is on his family, and his father. This is a thing that is more unique to our Middle Eastern culture. It is the most difficult thing, to convert from one religion to another."

He suggested that Mr Yousef may have been pressured into conversion in exchange for financial help or permission to stay in the US, given his background - allegations Mr Yousef rejects.

"I didn't come to Christianity for money, I came to Christianity because this is the way we can live a better life," he said.

"I love my people. They have the right to live like any other nation on Earth. But at the same time, I want to help them [get] on the right track."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 09:42 PM

By the way, the government of Israel and the IDF leadership should be brought before an international court for war crimes, too, and not just the individual soldiers who commit them. The government and the IDF are responsible for creating the rules of engagement that allow these war crimes to be committed, and they don't do anything to stop them from happening. And we're not just talking about a few bad apples. These kinds of things are not an aberration - they are the norm.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 09 - 11:58 PM

"By the way, the Hamas and the Hezbollah leadership should be brought before an international court for war crimes, too, and not just the individual soldiers who commit them. These organizations are responsible for creating the rules of engagement that allow these war crimes to be committed, and they don't do anything to stop them from happening. And we're not just talking about a few bad apples. These kinds of things are not an aberration - they are the norm."

Reads well two ways, huh?

Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:19 AM

I have already said that I think Hamas should be brought before an international court for war crimes, so it won't work trying to get me in an argument about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:22 AM

So why don't you ever rant about Hamas?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:22 AM

Hamas as the Government of the area of Gaza is not universally recognised as the Government of the Palestinian people. It has, like the Taleban in Afghanistan before, been recognised by one or two countries, that being done to yank America's chain more than anything else. While the Taleban were never elected Hamas was and the reason given for not recognising them is their Charter which demands the destruction of a fully recognised member state of the United Nations (i.e. Israel) and the annihilation of her people. That by the bye Don is where the MORAL Right of the matter comes into play.

Take a good look at what the Palestinian Arabs say they are fighting for, what they seek as a solution. Note that this grouping does not include Hamas all they will ever promise Israel is a cycle of truce and conflict. You will discover Don that as a two state solution it amounts to less than they were offered by the UN in 1947.

Sixty-two years of needless conflict Don, a path elected by choice by the Arabs of Palestine, another facet of this problem where MORAL Right comes into play. Ultimately is must end, and while we all recognise this truth and chatter about who should do what, for the combatants the perspective is somewhat different, they are literally fighting for their very existence and if they cannot make peace then one side will die, and the Jews will not just quietly walk into the night again.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:23 AM

Let me rephrase...

I have already said that Hamas and Hezbollah should be brought before an international court for war crimes, so it won't work trying to get me in an argument about that. I await the above poster's statement that the government of Israel should be brought before an international court for war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:24 AM

Well, not the above poster, but the GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:27 AM

I don't rant about Hamas because, as another poster in this thread has said, when I condemn war crimes committed by Hamas, NOBODY DISAGREES WITH ME.

My criticisms of Israel are in response to the many justifications I see here in the Mudcat for Israel's continued subjugation, genocide, and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:31 AM

And my posts on this subject are also for the purpose of correcting the propaganda, lies, distortions, and hatemongering that I see in such abundance here in the Mudcat on the subject of the Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:08 AM

I think the people in the Israeli government who ordered the deaths of civilians should be brought to trial for the crimes they ordered committed--the day after Hamas, Hezbollah and other leaders of 'these types of groups' are brought to trial for their crimes. Safe thing to say because we all know that THAT will never happen. This does not include the deaths of people who were in areas that hid weapons. That would be on Hamas' or Hezbollah's hook. They seem to like doing that. And you seem to like losing the plot along with your cool.

Do you really think you have corrected anything? Really? I know for fact you have driven a few Jewish Mudcatters away, but other than that, what do you think you have accomplished?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:34 AM

Well, I think a non-racist stance would be to say that both the government of Israel as well as Hamas and Hezbollah should all be prosecuted at the same time. But I don't expect the above poster to ever take such a stance.


Why should some Jewish Mudcatters' preferences take precedence over the preferences of other posters? Think of how hostile the environment here in the Mudcat is for Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims. It's too bad that those people felt they had to leave, but that's not a good reason to allow lies and hatemongering to flourish here without being challenged.

What I try to accomplish here is to present the truth. People who can't handle that are the ones with the problem. That should not be a reason to silence people who are fighting for the rights of an oppressed people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:42 AM

You're one of the most malevolent racists on Mudcat fer krisake. I said it the way I did because you know damned well NO ONE from Hamas or Hezbollah will EVER be prosecuted for war crimes. You think Israel doesn't know that?

SSDD.

Latte anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:45 AM

We were talking about our own opinions about who should be prosecuted. I would expect Hamas and Hezbollah to be prosecuted before I would ever expect anyone in the government of Israel to be prosecuted.

However, being the only one between the two of us who is not a racist, my opinion is that everyone should be held to the same standard, unlike the above poster who believes that some people are entitled to more rights than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 02:21 AM

Have just one and stay up allllll night.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:49 AM

"As I said, it doesn't matter what the charter says if they agree to abide by the will of the Palestinian people if they vote for a two state solution. And they said they would. That's the only thing that really matters. "

Oh, for heaven's sake!

So, let's go down this road then, shall we.

If the British Government brought out a charter saying that they'd not rest until all Muslims had been obliterated from the face of the earth, you're saying it wouldn't matter? It wouldn't matter, so long as they abided by what most of the British people wanted?

There would be an international outcry, as well you know.

Think on this.

A new Hamas Charter stating that their one aim is to find peace with Israel, to live with them as neighbours, to grow with them, to see each other as equals, to lay down the weapons, to breed peace where once they bred hate, and to apologise with every breath in their body for the hate and racism they've poured out over the Israeli people, would go an awful long way to bringing peace in the Middle East forever, particularly if that charter was taken up by others.

If you raise your children on hatred, then all you will get is a hateful world. There are many in the Islamic world who want that to happen, who encourage it to happen. There is much wrong with the Islamic world, the way they treat women, the way they treat each other, the way they regard non-islamic countries....and the sooner the rest of the world has the courage to stand up and say it out loud, rather than pussyfooting around in an effort to avoid being called racist, when it's the other way round entirely, the better the whole world will become.

Many Israelis are speaking out against what's happening, I would hope that many Palestinians are too. It's all complete madness, but when you have country run by people like Hamas who have an outlook like they do, well...you ain't gonna have peace, that's for sure.

Think on this...

Let's pretend I live next to door to you. On my bedroom wall I have the words, "I am going to obliterate you from this earth and I'll not rest until I've done it!" and you know those words are there because I've shown them to everyone, put it in the paper, been on TV, the whole caboodle...how would you feel?

Would you feel happy about that, purely because if anyone asked me, I'd say "Oh yes, but those are only WORDS. Heyyyyy...I'm really a fun-loving, all round, peace loving, humanity loving kind of gal, who's willing to comply with whatever anyone wants!"...and then, I go back to my homemade charter and write a few more words of hatred and annihilation about you...tapping on your wall each night, just to remind you that I was there..

YEESH!!

WORDS don't matter???????

Of COURSE they ********* do!!

Those words are read, known about, held close to the hearts of many Palestinians...and they're **abided** by as well.

Get real!!

Until the snivelling cowardly b*stards who run Hamas decide to re-write their charter, then nothing will change!

There is a huge amount that's wrong in the Islamic world, a huge amount. There is also much wrong in the non-islamic world too. ALL of it needs to be discussed openly.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:54 AM

"While the Taleban were never elected Hamas was and the reason given for not recognising them is their Charter which demands the destruction of a fully recognised member state of the United Nations (i.e. Israel) and the annihilation of her people. That by the bye Don is where the MORAL Right of the matter comes into play."

What makes you think Teribass that Israel's intent isn't the same????
Christ, by their actions it is identical to the words of Hamas & Hezbollah. All should be tried in the world court for 'Crimes Against Humanity' & Isreal should have an added charge of "Attempted Genocide" put against them with the US in the same court because of our backing of them. They have all gone way beyond, except that the Israeli population has not suffer any all attcak that could be considered attempted "Genocide" even if some have verbly professed that disire where as Israel has not 'officially' verbally stated this but by their actions this is exactlly what they are attempting. And they that suffered this same fate just a few short generations ago. "LEST THEY FORGET"
Shame to them & their their supporters

As for the training of children. I was one of those children who was being cultivated for & by the US. And you think it's just these backwards, two bit, third world nations that train kids for war & hate. The school I attened is still enrolling & has a history going back better than 200 yrs. http://www.vfmac.edu/camp/index.html

When I was 13-14 I was sent to this military training school to keep me out of trouble. Great, all I needed at the time was the ruduments of hand to hand combat training & the knowledge & trianing in firearms. I was being taught while at school the military use of a 305 enfielf sniper rifle & the field stripping of automatic weapons, one in peticular, a 50 cal. machine gun, target practice with a 22. I attended Valley Forge Military Acadamy at Valley Forge, Pa, right here in the US. They take kids in starting at the ages of 6 for their summer camp program & starting in prep school at the grade of 7 for thier program (that's what I was enrolled in).
At the time the Russians & the Chinesse were our emeny's that were to be focused on.

They taught me well. When they taught me just enough I escaped. I was later caught in downtown Phily & brought back. The two fellows I escaped with were also caught. The first to get caught never made it past the high fences we had to climb in the darkness before the alam & spotlights came on. He was put into hot & cold running showers dressed in a just what a sailor would call as the top only only of their foul weather gear. By the time myself & the other escapee got caught it was by the city Police. We couldn't be treated in the same fashion. We were shamed & I preferred to be drummed out, the other guys stayed. I believe they both died as young junkies.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:58 AM

Wow, I can't believe I haven't thought of that part of my life in yrs, I can't even remember how long. I don't think I've ever told my even my wife or kids either. I'll have to check with them & let them know if they don't.

Of course I may try & forget about this every time I remember it & only think I haven't thought of this in such a long time

Funny, the mind is a tricky thing to try to not use

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:12 AM

""By all means give peace a chance but it is not Israel that has a constitution that demands the death of every Arab in Palestine. hamas has to change dramatically before it finds itself acceptable in the civilised world - Do that and all else follows.""

So peace in the schoolyard can only be countenanced when the VICTIM lies down and allows the BULLY to kick him, at which point the BULLY will magnanimously withdraw to the accolade of all his supporters, while the VICTIM crawls off to the doctor's surgery for treatment.

VERY EQUITABLE! And I bet the Israelis would love it.

Well I supervised a playground with 300 kids for over fifteen years, and my take on ending a playground fight is this. YOU GRAB BOTH OF THEM, PULL THEM APART, AND SEND BOTH OF THEM TO THE HEADMASTER FOR PUNISHMENT!!!

That is how it should be dealt with, and by so doing you deprive the BULLY of the status he would gain among other thugs, by being allowed to claim a WIN.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:27 AM

""Sixty-two years of needless conflict Don, a path elected by choice by the Arabs of Palestine, another facet of this problem where MORAL Right comes into play.""

NO! 62 years of needless conflict Teribus, a path elected mainly by the British government when they took over a sovereign state, and introduced many thousands of foreigners, without so much as a by-your-leave, and to add insult to injury, put the newcomers in control.

You would scream loud and long if that happened in YOUR country, as would I.

The State of Israel is the living expression of the shame of those who did nothing to prevent, or alleviate the suffering inflicted on the Jews. That does not alter the fact that those Jews were rightly citizens of various European countries, while the muslims who are so unpopular here were and are rightfully citizens of Palestine.


I don't really feel particularly surprised that the Palestinians are less than overjoyed at being summarily dispossessed of half their country, and the more fertile, productive, half at that.

It seems that Richard the Lionheart's crusades are still in progress

Don T..

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:31 AM

I'm The Bully
(words & music by Barry Finn)

CHORUS:
I'm the bully, you're my victim
I need the practice, you need the pain
I'm the bully, you're my victim
I've got the passion to drive you insane

Oh how I love to, stalk the weakling
And the outcast and the lame
I'm on prowl for someone different
Some unfit prey to be my game

Chorus

A shove on the stairs, when none are watching
A whisper of terror that none will hear
I can eyeball you at a hundred paces,
And strike with fear year after year

Chorus

I'll hound you from the crowed schoolyards
I'll pursue you in the public parks
You'll have no friends & no companions
You'll be a wretch with a broken heart

Chorus

You can cry for help & beg for mercy
And tell the world just what I've done
You can pull a knife or pull the trigger
You're on my turf, in the end I've won.

Chorus

The only way you'll ever beat me
Is to know the coward beasts for who they are
Stand up and ignore and expose me
Trapped in my den caged behind bars


Copyright 2000

Guess who's the bully & guess who the victim?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 May 09 - 06:52 AM

"It seems that Richard the Lionheart's crusades are still in progress..."

             They are in fact. If we could only get rid of religion, none of this would be happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 09:11 AM

CarolC:
"And they said they would. That's the only thing that really matters."

CarolC:
"Actions are more important than words. "




WORDS: " Hamas has said they are willing to abide by a decision of the Palestinian people if they vote for a two state solution. Their actions in this regard are far more important than their words."

I agree with CarolC. Their words are nowhere near as important as their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 09:20 AM

And my posts on this subject are also for the purpose of correcting the propaganda, lies, distortions, and hatemongering that I see in such abundance here in the Mudcat on the subject of the Israelis and Jews.

What about the ARAB PALESTINIAN Homeland of TransJordan, established in 1923 of the 77% of the Mandate Palestine forbidden to Jewish settlement against Mandate law)? What about the 820,000 Arab Jews (versus the 640,000 Arab Moslim Palestinians) driven from their homes?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 09:44 AM

"I don't really feel particularly surprised that the Palestinians are less than overjoyed at being summarily dispossessed of half their country, and the more fertile, productive, half at that."


Not true- the West bank is the more fertile portion, and that does not include the 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory reserved esclusively for the Moslims as THEIR homeland in 1923.

"a path elected mainly by the British government when they took over a sovereign state, and introduced many thousands of foreigners, without so much as a by-your-leave, and to add insult to injury, put the newcomers in control."

Look at the Jewish population of Palestine under the Ottomans: Does the territory of Israel reflect even that percentage of the Mandate Palestine total territory?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:38 AM

"NO! 62 years of needless conflict Teribus, a path elected mainly by the British government when they took over a sovereign state, and introduced many thousands of foreigners, without so much as a by-your-leave, and to add insult to injury, put the newcomers in control." - Don

OK Don can you tell me what sovereign state the British Government took over and did this to?? If you are talking about Palestine then Don I would advise you to go away and do a bit of reading because if you are talking about Palestine you are talking out your arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:54 AM

This is a question of indigenous people being subjected to genocide, ethnic cleansing, and subjugation at the hands of a foreign occupying power. This was even the case back when Britain was telling the Palestinians what to do. The Palestinians have every right to hate the powers that occupy and commit genocide and ethnic cleansing on them. They are not in any way obligated to submit to anything that is imposed on them by any occupying power, neither the British prior to the establishment of the state of Israel, nor the Israelis.

It is the responsibility of the aggressors (in this case Israel) to show the people they have victimized and oppressed for more than sixty years that they are willing to change. Hamas has a right to not submit to Israeli subjugation. When Israel shows by its actions, that it is willing to let the Palestinians remain in their place of origin, and undo the more than sixty decades of showing them through their actions that they intend to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the map, that is when I would expect Hamas to change its charter. Not before.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:04 PM

Shit, did the Jews under the Roman occupation love the Romans, or did they hate them? How about in Egypt? Did the Jews living in Egypt under the Pharaoh not hate their oppressors? Hell, many Jews still hate the Roman and Egyptian empires to this very day! How do Jews feel about the Tzars and the Cossacks? How about the Poles?

This is what I am talking about when I say that people who expect the Palestinians to behave differently than they are willing to behave themselves are racists. They see the world as belonging to them and everyone else just has to suck it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:15 PM

Here's another example of Israel holding itself to a different standard than everyone else (and Israel being held to a different standard by the Western powers, and fuck what all of those racially inferior brown skinned people want or need)...

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/05/egypt-offmessage-on-iranian-nukes.html#more


Egypt insists on talking about Israeli nukes

Bruce Wolman writes:

Speakers at the AIPAC policy conference regularly said that some Arab nations are on the same page with Israel in considering the Iranian nuclear program the biggest threat to regional stability, but the Egyptian Foreign Ministry articulated a different message yesterday.

According to the Jerusalem Post, Ministry spokesman Hossam Zaki said that Western policies aimed at "pressuring Iran to give up its nuclear program will fail because they disregard Israeli nuclear capabilities." More critically, Egypt called the Israeli nukes "the first and greatest threat to security in the region."

Needless to say, Israel did not take the statement kindly. Yigal Palmor, an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman rejected the Egyptian characterization, adding

    If he can quote at least one occasion in which Israel has threatened any of its neighbors with the alleged nuclear weapon, then his statements would gain him credibility. Unless he produces evidence to support his claims, these kinds of remarks are completely out of line.

Does Israel really want us to go there? According to globalsecurity.org, hardly a disarmament web site:

    The total Israeli nuclear stockpile consists of several hundred weapons of various types, including boosted fission and enhanced radiation weapons ("neutron bombs"), as well as nuclear artillery shells. Strategically, Israel uses its long-range missiles and nuclear-capable aircraft (and, some say, submarines with nuclear-armed cruise missiles) to deter both conventional and unconventional attacks, or to launch "the Samson Option", an all-out attack against an adversary should defenses fail and population centers be threatened. In addition, despite Israel's insistence that it "will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East," these systems represent an effective preemptive strike force. At the same time, Israel deploys tactical systems designed to rapidly reduce an invading force. Following the 1973 war, Israel fielded at least three batteries of atomic-capable self-propelled 175mm cannons equipped with a total of no less than 108 warheads, and placed atomic land mines in the Golan Heights during the early 1980s.

    Nuclear weapons need not be detonated to be used as weapons. Early in the 1973 war, Israel went on a nuclear alert, partly in the knowledge that it would be detected by the United States and the Soviet Union. The Soviets, Israel assumed, would restrain their Arab allies while the Americans would speed up resupply efforts. While the USSR did inform Egypt that Israel had armed three nuclear weapons, the extent to which Israel's nuclear alert affected the timing of Washington's subsequent decision to rearm Israel is not clear.

Since the intelligence services of Israel's neighbors can search online just as easily as we can, a reasonable conclusion for them to draw is that Israel's ideas about tactical nuclear weapons in the region represent a real threat.

Zaki announced that Egypt "sought to realize the aims of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty to guarantee the security of all states, whereas possession of nuclear weapons by some countries disrupted the balance of power and encouraged other nations to address this imbalance by seeking to acquire nuclear weapons."

At the AIPAC conference an optimistic Jane Harman "hopefully" pointed out the conflicts Egypt was having with Hezbollah and Iran. But only a few hours earlier Egypt had "called on the international community to justify and indiscriminately apply the Non-Proliferation Treaty that requires states to comply with its provisions, and asked it to refrain from the adoption of double standards in pressuring states to abandon their programs."

An Egyptian official directly told the Jerusalem Post that Egypt preferred Israel to pursue diplomacy rather than a military option in confronting Iran's nuclear program.

And lest anyone regard the Foreign Ministry briefing as pro forma, the Egyptian daily Al-Ahram reported on Sunday that President Hosni Mubarak told Philippine President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo in a meeting that "Egypt opposed any proliferation in the region and that efforts aimed at shedding light on the Iranian nuclear program must be accompanied by parallel efforts to deal with the Israeli program."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:52 PM

so, CarolC, you will hold Israel to a treaty it did not sign or benefit from ( the MPT) but allow Iran to violate it after having signed and gotten the benefits????


Israel developed it's nuclear weapons BEFORE the NPT- If anything, Israel should be listed as one of the nuclear powers, which under the NPT have the right to keep their weapons ( although encouraged to reduce the number).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:02 PM

I would expect Israel to sign it, and then uphold it. For Israel and the Western powers to expect other countries in the Middle East to not have nuclear weapons, while supporting Israel's possession of them, rather than applying equal pressure to Israel to sign the treaty and eliminate their weapons, is a double standard, and is racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 09 - 02:04 PM

From yesterdays Irish Times:
A new low - or leftie propaganda?
Jim Carroll

GAZA PATIENTS BEING INTERROGATED SAY MEDICS
RORY MCCARTHY
in Jerusalem

AN ISRAELI medical human rights group said yesterday that an increasing number of Palestinian patients from Gaza were being interrogated by Israeli security services before being allowed to leave the strip for treatment.
Physicians for Human Rights-Israel said at least 438 patients had been summoned for interrogation by the Shabak, the Israeli general security service, at the Erez crossing out of Gaza between January 2008 and March this year.
It took evidence from several patients and found they were "forced to provide information as a precondition to exit Gaza for medical care".
The group said the ratio of applicants being interrogated rose from 1.45 per cent in January last year to 17 per cent in January this year.
Their research also suggested the number of interrogations increased sharply from the begin¬ning of this year, after Israel's three-week war in Gaza.
One unnamed patient, who had been referred for orthopaedic treatment to a hospital in east Jeru¬salem, told the group that, as he was trying to leave Gaza, he was asked to give information on the people in his neighbourhood and was asked if he knew any Hamas members.
When he refused to give any information, he said his interro¬gator replied: "I understand that you don't want to answer me and that you don't want to work with us, so go back to Gaza."
Another patient, who was trying to reach a hospital in east Jerusalem, said he was asked: "If you tell me which meubers of your family belong to the Hamas and which to the Islamic Jihad, I'll let you leave Gaza or the hospital." When he refused, he was told he would be sent back to Gaza.
The group said that patients were photographed by the security services holding a card with their name and identity card number on it, sometimes by coercion.
Others described being insulted during the questioning and being locked up at the crossing, some¬times for several hours without explanation.
Physicians for Human Rights said it took on average six to eight hours for each patient to cross. The group said it believed the Israeli security services were vio¬lating international laws on torture and coercion.
"PHR-Israel reiterates its claim that the way in which the GSS [general security servicc| is exploiting patients' medical condi¬tions by exerting pressure on them, be it overt or hidden, constitutes coercion prohibited under the fourth Geneva convention," it said.
"The exacerbation of the situa¬tion is the outcome of failure of i public bodies in Israel to take effec¬tive steps to restrain the GSS."
It was to present its findings to the UN Committee Against Torture in Geneva.
Mark Regev, a spokesman for the Israeli government, rejected the allegations.        
He said: "The idea that there is ! a conditionality that people who come into Israel for medical treat¬ment must provide intelligence co-operation is simply untrue."
Mr Regev said 13,000 Palestinians from Gaza were allowed into Israel last year for medical treatment and said they had to go through "legitimate" security checks.- (Guardian service)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:36 PM

"YOU GRAB BOTH OF THEM, PULL THEM APART, AND SEND BOTH OF THEM TO THE HEADMASTER FOR PUNISHMENT!!!"

Absolutely. When's the last time anyone from Hamas or Hezbollah were grabbed and taken to the headmaster? Seems a certain lady wants only Israelis taken there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:54 PM

The Latest from / about Hamas - for whatever it's worth

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:55 PM

Now Barry Finn takes something I said that is factual and can be easily verified:

"While the Taleban were never elected Hamas was and the reason given for not recognizing them is their Charter which demands the destruction of a fully recognized member state of the United Nations (i.e. Israel) and the annihilation of her people. That by the bye Don is where the MORAL Right of the matter comes into play."

i.e. Hamas' Charter does undeniably call for the destruction of Israel and the annihilation of her people and that is why Hamas as a government is not recognized by the UN and the majority of the nations of the world. And he replaces that with his own highly subjective opinion and attempts to present it as being of equal weight:

"What makes you think Teribass that Israel's intent isn't the same????
Christ, by their actions it is identical to the words of Hamas & Hezbollah."

Well then Baz it doesn't work that way does it because everything must stand up to critical analysis. Shall we take a run through it then?? To make it easy we'll skip the first twenty odd years of the Palestinian Mandate Period where the Jews were repeatedly attacked dispossessed and murdered by Palestinian Arabs, attacks that CarolC conveniently denies ever happened. Unfortunately for CarolC they did and they are extremely well documented. Let's take the events of last Christmas, the last Israeli incursion into Gaza.

OK Baz your contention is that Israel demands the destruction of Gaza and the West Bank and the annihilation of the Palestinians, but this is not written anywhere or spoken of – Rather unfortunate for your case that, because the Hamas declaration is there for everybody to read and there are loads of "You Tube" clips of Arab "leaders" spouting about killing Jews and destroying Israel.

Anyway Baz back to the Israelis. The question must be asked have they got the kit to do the job? And the answer to that Baz is a resounding yes, they have all the tools they need and more.

Have they got the necessary training and ability Baz to destroy Gaza and the West Bank and annihilate the people? Once again, I'd have to say yes.

So come on Baz, how did this well equipped, well trained, capable killing machine that is the IDF perform in Gaza over Christmas then. From the 27th December 2008 until the 21st January 2009 they killed between 1285 and 1117 people.

The population of Gaza at the start Baza was around 1,400,000 people. So for 26 days the most powerful army, navy and air force in the region pummelled the Palestinian enclave of Gaza and succeeded in killing 0.09% of the population they have sworn to annihilate. Almost a whole of 0.1% Barry!!!! Were they having a series of off-days?? Feeling liverish?? Not quite "into it" at that time of the year?? I mean come on Barry f**ckin' ell 26 days going at it hammer and tongs F-16's, laser guided bombs, white phosphorus, tanks and heavy artillery, throwing the whole bloody "ish" at it and all they can succeed in annihilating is not even 0.1% of the population – Not too good for your argument is it, they should have done a lot better than that shouldn't they?? Apart from which the West Bank wasn't even touched!!!

Of course Barry this lack of performance could be put down to one of two other possible reasons considering how good the IDF is:

1.        The Palestinians in Gaza are all World "Hide-And-Seek" Champions and the IDF unfortunately attacked during a practice session

OR

2.        There is no desire whatsoever on the part of the Israel Government, the Israeli Defence Force, or the Israeli people, to annihilate anybody.

Now being a logical sort of person and going through all that I'll put my money on the latter explanation being the truth. Now come on Baza you convince me otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:04 PM

The Hamas offer (linked to by Nickhere) pretty much describes why Israel will see NO reason to seek peace. Hell, "The Protocols" were discredited by scholars a century ago. Anti-Jews still quote it today.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:13 PM

Sorry Teribus, but that sounds like it could be applied both ways. I have heard a lot about the 8,000 rockets fired by various militant groups (including Hamas) into Israel from Gaza. It has been proposed that this is proof of their so-called intent to 'wipe Israel off the map'. Yet the casualties in all those rocket attacks were literally a handful of Israelis.

So, were they too playing hide and seek? I gather they were huddling terrified in bomb shelters most of that time, which no person should have to do in this day and age. Or perhaps the militants have 'no desire to annihilate anyone'?

A lot has been said (including by you) about why both these things are bad and wrong, and I agree with you. But do you not have the humanity to apply the same standards to Israel's neighbours? If more Palestinians weren't killed it was probably because they too, were huddled terrified wherever they could find shelter. Yet around one a half thousand died over a short period which is one and a half thousand too many.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:16 PM

Yes Peace, but it seems significant to me also that Hamas will accept a return to 1967 borders. This to me indicates their position is not as extreme as might be thought, and that Hamas have a bargaining point.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:30 PM

"applying equal pressure to Israel to sign the treaty and eliminate their weapons"


Sorry, those powers that HAVE nuclear weapons WHEN THEY SIGN are NOT required to eliminate them.


So, you are insistying that Israel do MORE than any other nation????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:35 PM

"I have heard a lot about the 8,000 rockets fired by various militant groups (including Hamas) into Israel from Gaza. It has been proposed that this is proof of their so-called intent to 'wipe Israel off the map'. Yet the casualties in all those rocket attacks were literally a handful of Israelis.

So, were they too playing hide and seek? I gather they were huddling terrified in bomb shelters most of that time, which no person should have to do in this day and age. Or perhaps the militants have 'no desire to annihilate anyone'?" - Nickhere

The lack of Israeli casualties is incidental what must be taken into account fully is the intent of those firing the rockets. In so doing remember that the rockets are indiscriminately targeted at Israeli civilian centres of population.

Yes when the rockets are fired the Israelis in the towns targeted would be huddled in bomb shelters. The observation towers, the battle-field projectile detection radar, warning systems and the shelters were provided for the populations of those towns by the Israeli Government. What measures have Hamas taken to protect its citizens Nick?? I mean they do know that the Israelis will fire back at locations from where rocket attacks are launched against its citizens, that's self defence.

The declared intent on the part of Hamas to destroy Israel and annihilate its population is plainly written for all to see in black and white. They themselves do not deny it, why those who espouse the cause of the Palestinians cannot accept this fact I do not know.

That declaration contained within the Hamas Charter is wrong, totally unacceptable and cannot be defended by anyone, therefore Hamas must change it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:37 PM

Nick,

"it seems significant to me also that Hamas will accept a return to 1967 borders"

What about the 1923 borders, when the ARAB MOSLIM homeland was carved off Mandate Palestine, taking 77% of the entire mandate territory, and Jews were prohibited from living there?? How many times do the Arabs need to be given "their own country"?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:39 PM

oh, 1500.