BS: Home Education UK

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:14 PM

i know i spoke of emotions only for the last sentance, but i think love is still the most important thing for most people still.

quite a few years ago we were living in a hostel, one of the girls there had at least two abortions. this has nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of abortion, but it amazed me that after having one she wasn't more careful!

she was not the only one i have known to do that either.

so the question being which would you prefer, good sex education, or getting into a situation that could damage not only your mental health, but your body as well?

TCA
jade x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:16 PM

Nah, Dave....I'm afraid I don't believe those figures about pregnancy.

Of course, the entire Benefits System is geared up to encourage early pregnancy anyway...

"WHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOSH!" is heard across the nation, as they all reach for Google to look up 'Benefits and Pregnancy' to prove the Witch wrong, yet again, and hang her out to dry...

You lot do make me laugh at times...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:16 PM

Lizzie I take it from this:

Nope...I asked... [ a consultant paediatrician if he was a paedophile].... because I'm really kinda weirdly worried about folks who want to talk to 13 year olds about oral and anal sex.....

No wonder they told you he wasn't in!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:22 PM

jade, young people have been having 'sex' education for yonks now...and it's not making any difference, well it is.....but it's not a good difference..

In fact, we've got a nation of kids (generalising 'Daisybell', generalising) who are driving other nations up the wall when they visit on holiday and 'the british' are found to be having sex up against their church walls...

I mean?????????

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:22 PM

Nah, Dave....I'm afraid I don't believe those figures about pregnancy.

Of course, the entire Benefits System is geared up to encourage early pregnancy anyway...

Of course you didn't Lizzie.

Of course it is Lizzie.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:22 PM

At any of the schools I've been to, I've never experienced this extreme sex education; about five years ago when we had our first sex education lessons, they were really biological and didn't explain that much in detail. I think it's ridiculous to suggest that before sex education, there was no underage sex or pregnancy. Sex education isn't teaching people how to have sex, it's teaching them what sex is and how to be safe. If an individual decides to have sex underage, wouldn't you rather they were safe and knew the consequences rather than getting pregnant and not knowing anything about contraception?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:24 PM

'I asked because I'm really kinda weirdly worried about folks who want to talk to 13 year olds about oral and anal sex.....'

The programme was designed to REPLY to young peoples questions about such issues.
However much we may be concerned about and deplore the early sexualization of children through the media etc it is nevertheless a 'fact of modern life' and I believe honest informed disucussion of such things is better than playground sniggering and misinformation.


BTW a recent small rise in conceptions rates per 1,000 girls aged 12 to 15 7.8 in 2006 to 8.1 in 2007 followed a 5 year fall

Earlier this year A spokesperson for the YWCA said:
"There has been an increase in the number of teenage conceptions in the last year but we feel that this is just a blip in the overall downward trend. We don't feel that there should be any concern that teen pregnancies are on the increase again."

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:25 PM

"No wonder they told you he wasn't in!!!!! "

Sigh........

Yeah, well I wasn't truly expecting him to be...although I did ask for him by name first, actually, smart arse, but I did get to speak to one of the ladies in his department..

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:27 PM

I never said he failed mathematics. However, his sister said that he wasn't good at the easy part of mathematics. For those who missed it the first time, here it is again...

"(Albert) never was much good at the 'easy' part of mathematics. To shine, he had to move on to the 'hard' part.' In adult life his mathematical intuition was recognised as extraordinary and he could handle deftly the most difficult of tensor calculus, but it appears that arithmetic calculation continued to be an area of comparative weakness." ~ Maja Einstein"


For those who apparently don't really know anything at all about people who are gifted/LD, or how such people are classified by and handle by the schools, and who have also apparently not bothered to read the links I provided on the subject, it is not necessary for a student to fail at a particular subject for them to be considered learning disabled if they are also gifted. All that is necessary is for there to be a marked discrepancy between their abilities in the area of their giftedness and any other area. For Einstein to have been as incredibly advanced as he was in certain aspects of mathematics, but to be considered "weak" in simple mathematics would qualify him as gifted/LD in the public schools today. That is how my son was assessed. Had he not been as advanced in some areas as he was, his deficiencies wouldn't have been considered great enough to qualify him for special education services. It was the discrepancy between his giftedness and other areas that qualified him for special education services.

That's just the way it works, folks. Too bad if some people don't like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:28 PM

"I think it's ridiculous to suggest that before sex education, there was no underage sex or pregnancy."

I didn't say that 'Daisybell'.....what I said was that in my day, with barely any sex education, pregnancy amongst my friends and peers was extremely rare.

There have always been youngsters who've had sex earlier than others, there always will be. You can't stop nature, but.....to saturate children and young people in sex, bodily functions, body parts..etc.etc..from primary school upwards is kinda wobbly weird, in my book....

But then, I read a different book to the many here...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:32 PM

I should point out that one of the reasons it is set up that way is because giftedness often masks the learning disabilities and makes them harder to detect in people who are gifted. But having such a large discrepancy is considered a telltale sign. And also, if someone is gifted, with no learning disabilities, there would not be such a discrepancy.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:36 PM

Yeah, well I wasn't truly expecting him to be...although I did ask for him by name first, actually, smart arse, but I did get to speak to one of the ladies in his department..

This gets funnier and funnier. Keep going Lizzie - I am thinking of publishing it somewhere.

You telephoned a consultant paediatrician at his place of work to ask him if he was a paedophile, not expecting him to answer. So you asked one of his staff instead.

Well at least they didn't patronise you.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:38 PM

None of my friends, or anyone I know of in my school, is pregnant, despite having minimal sex education. Plus it's mainly the media that can encourage people my age to have sex, not sex education. Why would what's practically a biology lesson make people feel like it was okay to have sex?
I'd really appreciate it if you stopped putting my name in quotation marks, I've asked you several times and it's rude.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:48 PM

Minimal sex education?

Yeesh, 'daisybell', my daughter had tons of it, at both secondary schools she attended....primary too. Seems your school is maybe a little behind the times, but....minimal is good, and maybe that's the reason why your friends and peers are as they are.

It's very good to hear.

Daisy, I'm a little puzzled....what exactly brought you to Mudcat? You've not posted ever before, seem to have made your way down to the BS section immediately, when Mudcat's known for its music more than anything else...

Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm real pleased to see you here, but...I'm just kinda puzzled as to how you got to be here and why you've not ventured into other threads...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:59 PM

I answered because my mum is a mudcat member, which is why earlier I mentioned going to folk festivals, and she told me about this thread a couple of days ago. She showed me some of the things you'd written and the generalisations you were making about people my age and schools like mine (I'm not just talking about one school either, I've attended two primary schools and two secondary schools, all of which were state schools) made me angry and I wanted to respond. I haven't ventured into other threads because this is the only one I'm really interested in. Is that okay 'Lizzie'? I'm going to bed now anyway, have a lovely evening!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:59 PM

"You telephoned a consultant paediatrician at his place of work to ask him if he was a paedophile, not expecting him to answer. So you asked one of his staff instead."

Er....I used to work for Consultants, for your information, (although I'm sure that's listed in your 'Things Lizzie's Said' Book, so I know they don't answer the phone...

Dave, have you seriously sat yourself down and asked yourself why you're so obsessed with me?   I mean there are loads of other people on this thread, but time and again..er.............

Tell you what, you go down to the park, and talk to 13/14 year olds about anal and oral sex, and when the nice policeman comes to take you away, you can just tell him that you were trying to get the kids to see 'there's another way of doing things' and see what happens...

Here you go.... Corporate Sex Education Industry kits...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 06:10 PM

Teachers, talking about teaching very young chldren about sex..


We had no sex education in primary school at all...

"All children are developing at a much faster rate...we are in a changing world.....our children are different"

I wonder why................


Once the adults protected the children, allowing them to have a childhood. Now, the New Way, is to put all the information on to the children, let them deal with it, and wash their hands of any further responsibility. IMO, that's crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 07:25 PM

Dave, have you seriously sat yourself down and asked yourself why you're so obsessed with me?

Actually no Lizzie I haven't stopped and asked myself because I'm not.

I have interacted with others in this thread and a list of my what I have written shows I normally have a wide variety of postings.

I do get involved in threads with you because you do write unsubstantiated horlicks so often and like others on this thread when people write unsubstantiated horlicks I feel it needs to be challenged or substantiated.

As as example you wrote about the young people getting cervical cancer vaccines. I haven't made a full check - but as far as I can see no-one has agreed with you, including someone who is currently at school and discussing this with her parents and her peer group. What you wrote was complete and utter tosh,

You referred to a university and its think tank. What you said about it was palpable nonsense but since you have a cavalier regard for facts that is not unusual.

I happen to have respect for truth and facts. You can have as much disregard as you like for the truth, but while ever you post nonsense expect me to disagree with you.

And let me get this absolutely right, you rang someone who you thought was a pedophile but was in fact a pediatrician you knew wouldn't answer the phone to you?

Truly remarkable!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 07:59 PM

Daisybell wrote:
I haven't ventured into other threads because this is the only one I'm really interested in.

If you do get interested in other threads, some of us would appreciate it. If you can put this much effort into helping shovel an immense steaming pile of dogshit, you've got a lot to contribute.

Welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 08:01 PM

Lizzie, protecting people from disease can never be a bad thing. Providing potentially life-saving information can never be a bad thing. There has always been teenage sexual activity and pregnancy, and I doubt if it's actually increasing. Instilling a sense of informed responsibility in young people is the best thing society can do, in my opinion, and that seems to be what they are trying to do with sex education.

Daisybell, thanks for the blast of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:24 PM

I do not understand how Lizzie taught her children to be caring and respectful when she can not find it in her heart to be either to a child/young adult who come on Mudcat to join this discussion.

Read your attacks on a fellow Mudcatter's daughter and then tell me you don't understand why you have been hounded in what you call a witch hunt. You misspelled it, Ms Cornish or Route or whatever. Or should I say "Cornish" or "Route". You really should be ashamed of yourself.


This certainly confuses me:
"The thing is, Emma...we were only taught about love....sex was part of love..the two went together."
I thought you were taught nothing of use in school? Or did someone see to it that you had Sex Ed in fear that might decide to reproduce?

Welcome Daisybell. I can see where you might expect your post to have some value - someone who is actually excelling in school. I suspect you and your friends are in the majority. Unfortunately, here on Mudcat, the ones who squeal the loudest and longest think they have proven their point when the rest of us walk away shaking our heads in disbelief and pity.

"See I'm right and you're wrong!
Auntie Em, Auntie Em! I'll give you Auntie Em...and your little dog too!"

DaisyBell - PM me if you would like to discuss school or anything else. Maeve is a voice of reason. Katlaughing, Jacqui, Janie, Dani (who has two college age daughters). All good people.Or continue the good fight here. Do what you need to.
Auntie SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:36 PM

I hope a certain Mudcat member chooses to post here. A daughter, aged about 9, asked "What is a blow job?" Mudcat member had sworn to the children that they could ask anything and never be told a lie. A carefully and accurately worded explanation was given. Child was satisfied and somewhat horrified. "Gross" if I remember correctly. Children only ask what they are ready to hear or what they have heard at school. Open, honest discussion is only fair.

I had similar talks with my son. Sometimes a little awkward for both of us but he asked what he needed to know and I gave him the information I thought was appropriate. I kept in mind that my first introduction to sex was a friend's explanation, straight from her mother, that when a woman wants a baby, she and her husband go to the hospital. He pees in her and that makes a baby. End of story.
Gross!

That girl had two illegitimate pregnancies. Too much information or misleading information? Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:41 PM

Like it or not the real issue right now is AIDS. To my knowledge oral or anal sex will not prevent it. I had this discussion with my son although his response was that he would never get involved with someone who might have AIDS. A difficult subject. Even marriage doesn't guarantee protection if your mate strays,

So is sex education included in home schooling?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 11:05 PM

exaclty right SINS, the only way is total honesty. that way no matter what happens they know they can always come to you.

i am also with you on lizzies responses to daisybell.
it takes courage to satnd up to you lot and fight your corner.

lizzie, you may not like what she has to say but don't kick her down because of it, she is to be appluaded for her common sense and independant thought.

take care all, sweet dreams

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Peace
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 11:27 PM

The reason sex ed ended up in schools in the first place is that the subject was not being handled too well by parents.

A buddy of mine--tongue in cheek--once said (after the delivery of their fourth child): "As soon as I find out what's causing that, it's gonna stop."

I think that school education works for some and not others. The problem with home education is that an approved curriculum is not always followed. Sometimes the child is left with the TV. Education is not something we're given. It's something we take.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:18 AM

People who are too lazy to actually teach their kids don't home school. If they're that lazy, they would much rather dump them off at the school to get them out of their hair for six to eight hours a day.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Peace
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:30 AM

I've known a few who did it to get their hands on the money.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:50 AM

What money?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Peace
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:00 AM

This may not hold true in the US, but in Alberta (I don't know the exact figures anymore, but the ones I'll use aren't off by much).

Each child gets a basic grant from the department of education. It goes to the school division. It is about $4500 per child (if there are no special needs difficulties--more if there are). However, a 'certified teacher' is required by law to 'run' each child's program. If a parent decides to home school, the parent will receive half ($2250) and the school will receive $2250 with the stipulation that the school ensure the curriculum is being followed, etc. MANY school divisions do not do an adequate job of that, and some parents (I'm thinking religious home ed. here as one example) buy courses--or not--and 'educate' their children. I know the system has been played around with on more than a single occasion although I won't go into details on this thread. (I'd be happy to message you about the examples I know of.) Lotsa room for improvement anyway.

That said, I know of home-schooled students who have been exemplary and gone on to be very successful in college, trades or university.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:16 AM

That's very interesting. I've never heard of home schooling parents receiving money in the US. That certainly wasn't how it was done in the area where I was home schooling.

I don't know if I would want to do it that way, myself. I wasn't happy with the way the local school system was handling my son when he was in school. I don't know if I would want them to be in charge of how I schooled him at home. In fact, it's almost a certainty that I wouldn't.

But I guess I don't understand why parents would go to the trouble of keeping their kids at home all of the time just so they could get a couple thousand dollars per year. That's not much money for the added hassle if they didn't do it out of concern for their kids' education.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:46 AM

And 'Daisybell' is.........?

Sorry, Mary...but I've been 'set up' wayyyyyyy too many times.....

Take a look at Joan Crump's commetts in the link on the thread about attacks on fellow Mudcatters, and THEN perhaps think about re-directing your comments above.

And 'Daisybell' is?????????

Who knows, huh.

I take it though that as 'Daisybell' has said she's at an all girl's school, then she's either at a Girl's Grammar School, or a Private girl's school, because I don't think we have Girls only school in the State system, do we?

So....we have the daughter of a Mudcatter at a private/grammar school, which goes against *everything* that most of the English folkies believe in, in fact, they abhor it.

Tell you what Mary, if I was sitting here telling them that my daughter was at a grammar/private school all Socialist Hell would break loose over me, but....strangely, not one of them has even mentioned this amazing fact.

Weird, huh?

Now, if, of course, 'Daisybell' is really who she says she is, then of course she is welcome here, but I hope she realises that private education is somewhat different to the state run one....life is a lot more privleged and somewhat laid back, because certainly, in Sidmouth's private school, St. John's, the older children are taught to take CARE of the younger ones, staying beside them as 'friends' for a long time...as opposed to Tavistock College, where the older ones stood at the top of the stairwell pouring boiling hot drinks down on the younger ones coming up the stairs...

So yes, Daisy seems to go to a wonderful school, where there is no stress, and taking 13 exams at once is so easy peasy that everyone is getting A's AND having the most wonderful social life too...which is a marvellous example of how well school can actually work well if the teachers work to protect the children from stress.....although quite how you can study for 13 exams at once and barely have to worry about working, is a bit of a mystery to me, but then....maybe, with my brain, I've not been blessed in the same way.

'Daisybell' is a very lucky girl...but I'm sure she appreciates this.

I look forward to her joining Mudcat and coming to many of the other threads and I hope she'll find loads of exciting information here about the folk world.

There ya go, Mary.

Oh...and I've taught my children to always question things, too.



Glad to hear you're not obsessed with me, Dave. I was getting just the teensiest bit worried there.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:49 AM

Bruce, home educators over here receive not a single penny. Their children are not even allowed to sit exams for free, which they are trying to get changed.

Basically, you get absolutely zilch, not a book, not anything...

We were, at least, blessed with our EWO officer, who gave my kids a wealth of gold in his inspirational words about them.

He actually *liked* them....I mean really liked them, and that made such a difference to them both.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 03:51 AM

LC: "I take it though that as 'Daisybell' has said she's at an all girl's school, then she's either at a Girl's Grammar School, or a Private girl's school, because I don't think we have Girls only school in the State system, do we?"

I think Daisybell specifically stated that she attends a single sex *State School* and not a Private School.

There are still state supported faith schools - which are also most likely to be single sex. My Mother went to an all girls Catholic school.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 03:58 AM

Aha, CS...that's what it must be then, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:05 AM

"Their children are not even allowed to sit exams for free, which they are trying to get changed."

Just to clarify...

'They' being the Home Educators, not those within Educayshun Sistum, who'd rather deny a child the right to exams, should he/she want to take any, to prove a point.

Be nice if they bent over backwards to help, but er........
Ho hum...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:12 AM

"Daisy seems to go to a wonderful school, where there is no stress, and taking 13 exams at once is so easy peasy that everyone is getting A's AND having the most wonderful social life too...which is a marvellous example of how well school can actually work well if the teachers work to protect the children from stress.....although quite how you can study for 13 exams at once and barely have to worry about working, is a bit of a mystery to me, but then....maybe, with my brain, I've not been blessed in the same way."

Lizzie, I'm twenty years older than Daisybell, and I went to a State school too (albeit a mixed one). But the picture she paints is actually pretty much identical to the one I recall amongst my own peer group.

The less bright kids didn't do so well, and the bright ones did very well. Those who did do well very often had Saterday jobs and went out to see bands at the weekend!! But they were also disciplined about studying and *importantly* had home lives that were academically encouraging and supportive. My best friend at this same State School won some national award (beating all the kids from private schools in the country) for being a smarty pants and doing so well! She happened to be one of the most socially well adjusted and fun loving people I've known. But she just got on with her studies when she had to, her parents instilled a supportive study and work ethic in her.

Perhaps Daisybell isn't stressed about (actually no-doubt studying quite hard) because her home life is *supportive* of her schooling?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:20 AM

To clarify, I think many kids are indeed let down by the system. Unfortunately the system *also* inherits problems created by parents in the first place.

IMO parents have a very important role in ensuring their children get the best out of that system as possible. Both in terms of how they raise that child in the first place, and then their subsequent involvement in their child's schooling.
I think there are too many parents (especially working class parents unfortunately) who dump their kids at the school gate, and expect to put in exactly Zero personal effort or investment in terms of supporting their child's schooling.

Parental support or indeed absence of support (or even worse), is a significant part of the equation where a child's schooling is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:59 AM

Point of clarification. In Manchester there is still at least one secular, all girls, non-selective secondary school. I imagine Manchester is not alone in this.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:00 AM

Lizzie, Daisybell has stated that she goes to a single sex state school. Now I believe her and as far as I can see so does everyone else who has posted here.

It sounds very similar to the school that both my daughters went to. They each did twelve GCSEs and went onto A levels and then University.   It was mixed is the only difference

There are plenty of grammar schools around some retain the title some don't. There are a number of state single sex schools. I am surprised that as an expert on education you didn't know that.

I know Dasiybell goes to one. How? Because she said so and I believe her. If you had spent anytime reading the written work of young people you would recognise it as convincing and truthful.

You must have had some really weird experiences down there in the South West to write what you do. And get your knowledge indiscriminately from from the Daily Mail and the internet with little understanding or critical analysis. Let me rephrase that. No understanding or critical analysis.

You know the EWO liking your children is not unusual, Despite what you say, most teachers are like that too. It's impossible to be involved with students or teaching and not like them. Teaching is a tough job, and the main reason why people do it is the look of pleasure on a young person's face when they have achieved something. The vast bulk of my teaching was with older students on Access courses, As a matter of interest was one - so I knew what difficulties they faced. Seeing them come out of the degree ceremony, having started with no qualifications whatsoever - well at that point I would have worked for nothing.

Most teachers will have a story of ex-students for whom education has made a real difference. Mine is usually the quadriplegic student who is completing his M.A.

Just think for a minute. He cannot speak, write, or walk He can't feed himself, dress himself or do any bodily function without assistance. Whilst he was studying at the Sheffield College he was a constant inspiration to the rest of the students. I wished we had had a dozen of him.

And having got a 2:1 at University he has gone on to do an MA. I don't see that as a tribute to his teachers or his support staff, parents and all the others who helped him - though he might. But I do see it as a tribute to him.

So don't slag off the teaching profession as a whole, don't slag off the education system and don't question young people's motivations.

Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:12 AM

I have never slagged off the teaching profession 'as a whole' Dave...and damn well you know that too, as you take apart every single sentence of mine.

In this thread alone, you will find numerous times that I have said I have the greatest respect for brilliant teachers who love their children and have their best interests at heart, so PLEASE do not try and stir things by saying what you have above, as it's completely untrue.

If 'Daisybell' is who she says she is, then all well and good to her, and as I've said earlier, I hope that she remains in Mudcat and enjoys many of the threads on here...

Not sure why parents go for single sex schools anymore....to be honest, as it's not a single sex world out there...and Dave, in all honesty, hypocrisy aside...if *I* had sent my kids to single sex schools, you...and all who sail in you, would be slagging me off for choosing some kind of 'selective' education...

I'm very pleased that your daughters managed to get 24 GCSEs between them. Just think, in 30 years time, they can still put that down on Job Application forms and wow folks.

I have no trouble with kids WANTING to learn or take thousands of exams, IF THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:15 AM

Lizzie, I took the trouble to look up the numbers of pupils in single sex girls schools.

There are approximately 140,000 girls in single-sex state schools.

Now why didn't you do that before suggesting they didn't exist.

You might care to note - pupils especially girls tend to get better results in single sex schools - but parents tend to prefer mixed schools. That's why the numbers have dropped from 2,500 single sex schools to the current figure.

See Lizzie, despite all the evidence, parents know best.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:16 AM

And please note, that I have not slagged you off, or questioned your reasons for sending YOUR children to single sex schools, as I understand and believe that parents MUST have the right to educate their children as they see fit...be that state schools, single sex schools, religious schools, home education, private schools...whatever.

I'd personally love to see just ONE type of school, where all children are allowed to learn what they love to learn, in a happy, beautiful environment, small classes and no division of school, but kids learning in ONE school throughout their whole schoolhood...instead of the trauma of going from cosy, family primary schools, to Factory Farm secondary ones, which is so often where the deep and often life long troubles start.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,Daisybell's mum
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:17 AM

I am logging out to post this, because who I am should be irrelevant. I was very proud that my daughter was able to say what she had to say in a clear and articulate way, and that she managed to show others a lot more respect than she was given herself.

Here is an article about single-sex state schools in Britain:

Girls' state schools

To be honest, the type of school Daisybell attends shouldn't really be relevant to this discussion, and it feels like Lizzie is moving the goalposts. Daisybell wanted to present the perspective of herself and her friends: their experience of state school in 2009 as a place where not everything is sunshine and daffodils, but neither is it the nightmare world that Lizzie would have us believe.

So, to recap (and to refute some of Lizzie's more snide implications):

YES, Daisybell is a real person, and her words were completely her own. Several Mudcatters have met her.

YES, she is taking 13 GCSEs. If Lizzie understood the current school system a bit better than she seems to, she might know that some GCSEs combine study, so a single foundation with added bits going in two different directions can lead to two different GCSEs - for example, RE and Sociology. So taking 13 exams isn't as difficult to manage as it might seem.

YES, Daisybell combines a healthy social life with getting very good grades. She is given the freedom and the privileges that she has BECAUSE she works hard. That's the deal. I would not have it any other way, because I think a healthy social life and learning to get on with others and navigate difficult social situations is one of the most important things you learn at school, and it would not happen if she was cloistered away studying every evening and weekend. Life has to have a balance. But that balance may have to change somewhat when she gets to 6th Form, which will be much more challenging.

YES, she goes to a good school. As she said in her first post, we moved house so that we could be closer to this school. I would point out that we moved from a very affluent area to one that is significantly less so. Ironically, the state schools in some affluent areas (and certainly where we came from) are quite mediocre, because all of the bright kids end up going private. There also wasn't a proper state 6th Form in the area, which would have been no good when Daisybell wanted to do A Levels. So we moved.

Lizzie seems to want us to believe that the majority of schools in the UK are places of abuse, where children are terrorised, taught to have anal sex, sleep around with anybody and everybody, that they are so depressed that they self-medicate with alcohol and drugs, and that any caring parent would whip their child out of there asap to avoid them going into meltdown. As Daisybell said, there are certainly schools with problems, but there are also plenty of young people who are doing just fine. If parents choose to home school that is certainly their right, but to paint all other children as sevelrely disadvantaged and abused just because their parents have not made the same choices as you is plain wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:18 AM

And crap teachers are crap, Dave, whichever way you view it, and I will NEVER support any crap teacher.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:31 AM

I'm very pleased that your daughters managed to get 24 GCSEs between them. Just think, in 30 years time, they can still put that down on Job Application forms and wow folks.

Well it is unlikely that they will need to. Few employers would take note of thirty year old qualifications. Bur you knew that really anyway.

As a matter of fact the eldest is Facilities Manager of a large national museum. She wasn't headhunted, she applied through civil service procedures.

The younger one works in the marketing department of one of the local universities. She to went through normal selection procedures. Most employers insist on doing it to avoid being sued because they discriminated against an applicant.

I don't "take apart" or study your writings Lizzie. Only the bits where you write tosh.

But I am delighted to have young Daisybell on my side. It seems to me that the school and her parents have made a great job of bringing her up.

And let me reassure you, I have never met her parents and I have no idea where she lives. But it wouldn't matter if I did, She clearly speaks for herself.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:47 AM

And crap teachers are crap, Dave, whichever way you view it, and I will NEVER support any crap teacher.

You are absolutely correct Lizzie. Me neither,

Which is why I believe those who do home education should show that they have some knowledge of how children develop, a sense of progress in learning and so on and not be someone who as just taken their children from school for some reason.

And that if they claim success in home education they should be willing to share their methods. After all qualified teachers do it all the time. It's called professional updating.

Speaking as a successful teacher Lizzie, albeit with a class size of two, did you do much professional updating?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: maeve
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:48 AM

Thank you to Daisybell and her mum for intelligent, reasoned, and interesting posts. I appreciate the effort and integrity that are so evident. You have both handled the thread with grace and humor.

maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 06:18 AM

think there are too many parents (especially working class parents unfortunately) who dump their kids at the school gate, and expect to put in exactly Zero personal effort or investment in terms of supporting their child's schooling.

I don't know if it occurred to you - but that is precisely what the upper class parents do when they send their children to boarding school!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 06:18 AM

500

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 06:39 AM

Their children are not even allowed to sit exams for free, which they are trying to get changed.

No-one sits state exams for free. Schools are charged. It is part of their budget.
Parents just don't ever see it as an item. Fees at an FE college include the exam fee.

As an FE college and examination centre the college where I worked often had people who had not studied in the college taking exams.

Some of them were home-educated.