Chords in Folk?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 05 May 08 - 06:22 PM

100 Charlotte, Good on you.

Don

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 05 May 08 - 06:37 PM

WAV: Re the use of Indian harmonium: I think it tends to be used more in popular and devotional music, and chords are used. In what is wrongly called Indian classical music, the melody/improvisation is, as you say, one note at a time; however, this is always accompanied by drones on the tanpura. A drone is a basic harmony, which has been used in European - including English - folk music for many centuries. It gives a fuller sound, and adds atmosphere, and, as has been suggested, can be easily rigged up on keyboards. It's not un-traditional - far from it. You seem to be worryingly entrenched in your anti-harmony views. Why not try a drone or two in the privacy of your own home, where nobody will know you're at it? You never know....
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 May 08 - 06:53 PM

I am sure Jack will have some interesting things to say about the way you tune your harp, Seldayne, and I will defer the issues scale construction to him--I am curious to know why you decided to tune your harp in that manner--

I tune the harp this way because this is the way to tune a medieval harp! I've heard this described as the Cycle of Fifths, but this could be something different. Here's how it works in practice...

The Ionian tonic is tuned to pitch from a secondary source; for the sake of convenience let's call this note C. Once you've got all your Cs in tune, the next string you tune is the fifth above the tonic, which gives you G. Then you tune the fifth above the G, which gives you D. Next, you tune an 8ve below the D for your second note in lower sale, then you tune a fifth above which gives you A, and then a fifth above A which gives you E. Then you tune an 8ve below that E to give you your lower E. And so on and so forth until you've created an Ionian / Major scale from pure fifths.

My harp is one Tim Hobrough's small English Harps (circa 1982), 19 gut strings.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 May 08 - 07:27 PM

Sedayne's harp tuning is absolutely normal for mediaeval art music, since it gets pure fourths and fifths, and they're the only harmonies used as stable consonances in that idiom. But isn't remotely like what folk instruments like the nyckelharpa use to get built-in pure third sonorities (and what the split frets on Renaissance lutes achieve, and what barbershop singers do).

Let Us Calculate.

Pure major third = 5/4 ratio = 1.2000
Equally tempered major third = 4 ET semitones, 400 cents = 1.2599
Pythagorean major third = 81/64 ratio = 1.2656

That is, if you can't tell the difference between a Pythagorean major third and a just one, you can't tell the difference between just and equally tempered thirds either.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 May 08 - 08:36 PM

if you can't tell the difference between a Pythagorean major third and a just one, you can't tell the difference between just and equally tempered thirds either

Very probably, Jack - although I remember being very impressed by a demonstration of the pure 5/4s on Harry Partch's chromelodeon (a reconstructed harmonium - the only of HP's instruments to feature his full 43-note octave). However when I'm playing in thirds on the harp (the 13th century Nobilis Humilis for example) I'm not aware of any imperfections as such.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Marje
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:47 AM

WAV, if a bass and tenor sang the same tune at different pitches, they'd have to be an octave apart to sound right. This may be classified as harmony of a very elementary type, but most people would regard this as unison. It's the same as when you get (say) men and women singing "Happy Birthday" together - they sing in different octaves but it hardly rates as harmony, sing they'll both be singing a G or whatever at the same time. To most people, harmony means a different interval from the octave.

Marje

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:57 AM

But at a folk-club, Marje, when folks who know the tune and words all join in, they are (usually - I once got some sophisticated accompaniment to The Drunken Sailar, eg.) singing the tune/top-line-melody (if chords/base notes have been added to the score) in their natural voice, and it can, of course, sound great, John - but it wouldn't if they were singing in a different key, with it's different top-line notes..?..so if I intoduced a chorus on my recorder, then transposed it to another key, we would then ALL have sung it in two different keys..?..or if a natural-tenor and -base (which is not an octave apart) both go doe-ray-me...they are NOT singing in different keys..?!..they are both singing in C, yes?!!
I was thinking of fair-competition with these BBC Young Musician Awards (you accept that pianists, themselves, can be off-form) but, of course, classical music is very much about harmonies...perhaps they should all use a pre-recorded accompaniment, CR..?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 May 08 - 06:15 AM

Do they still do those Music-Minus-One disks I wonder? A classical musician friend used to have them on vinyl for rehearsal purposes - the full orchestral backing without the solo instrument. Good music for getting absolutely hammered to on hot summer afternoons as I recall - Belorussian Vodka out the freezer and Vivaldi Oboe Concertos sans oboe!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 May 08 - 06:17 AM

I know nothing about classical music but I'd have thought it easier having a skilled accompanist who could react if you went a touch wrong than playing to a recorded backup. I think it could provide a bit of a "safety net".

All I do know is that if on a very rare occasion I do find myself "stranded" as the only melody line in a tune in a session, I am very glad if there is for example a guitar player who knows what he's doing with the tune and will keep his accompaniment part going - I know someone like that can cover the odd blunder by me. I may still fail completely but I find something like that a confidence booster.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 06 May 08 - 07:02 AM

I play a lot of music on fiddle with a Bozouki player, and find that he adds a lot of depth to the music I play. A simple tune, played however well can get pretty boring, but with decent backing can sound incredible.

At a session once a woman fairly new to the melodeon started playing the Bear Dance. Slowly the musicians around her joined in, with chords, runs, counter melodies and all ... which developed into one of the most incredible tunes I have ever heard.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 08 - 11:44 AM

It's at

http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/Modes.abc

Only single-line melodies, and mostly within ABC 1.6, but about as heterogeneous a collection as you can get within those constraints.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 08 - 11:49 AM

...and if that didn't make any sense, it was because I thought I was posting to the "Making music on a Mac" thread.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Marje
Date: 06 May 08 - 12:42 PM

WAV, one of us (at least) is getting confused by this discussion.
If two people sing in the same key, either in the same octave or an octave apart, it'll sound fine. If they sing in different keys that are not an octave apart, and both go do-re-mi, they're not both singing in C. Doh is just a name for the first note of the scale, in any key. One would be singing in C and one in G (or one in D and one in F, or whatever) and it would sound awful. That's neither unison nor conventional harmony.

I really don't know what you mean about introducing a chorus on recorder and then changing the key. It sounds a disconcerting thing to do, and why would you do it?

Help me, someone out there! Is any of this making sense?

Marje

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:01 PM

Marje

Is any of this making sense?

No.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:06 PM

Snail just got in while I was logging in to say no, WAV's last post didn't make sense, and he mentioned my name, but I couldn't see how he was commenting on what I had said. Perhaps this is all getting too much for him.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:10 PM

no.wav, appears to be on a different planet.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:29 PM

Seldayne--More specifically, I wondered if you were using the harp in a Harry Partch way--

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:38 PM

Sedayne--I am very sorry to admit that I have misconstructed your name, perhaps as an unconscious reference to the allergy medicine. No offense intended.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Melissa
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:02 PM

Marje,
Yes, you are making sense.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:09 PM

John (I nearly called you Ted), I mentioned your good name just after saying a chorus/harmony? in a folk club can sound great (whatever it is), in my opinion, as you suggested I'm a tad anti-harmony - "You seem to be worryingly entrenched in your anti-harmony views"; Now, I did admit way back that I know little of harmonies and chords (I could recognise some if I could see a guitarist's or pianist's left hand) but (minus a degree in mathematics) I have tried, Marje, and shall do so once more...there's you a soprano, Ted the tenor, and George the baritone singing from the same hymn sheet...and you're looking at the SAME! top-line melody (in A! given key) and listening to the same organ as you do so - you are NOT, thus, singing in different keys/you are singing the same top-line with naturally different (sop., tenor, baritone) God-given voices, yes?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:10 PM

Certainly didn't mean to imply that Marje wasn't making sense.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:13 PM

I'm starting a rival thread:-

Old Rope in Folk

Can I count on your support?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 May 08 - 03:48 PM

Seldayne--More specifically, I wondered if you were using the harp in a Harry Partch way--

Whilst Partch is a crucial influence on my approach to both singing & storytelling, I'm not intoning in microtones, rather canting with an awareness of what Partch called corporeality relative to a diatonic modal accompaniment built up of 4th, 5ths, 3rds and 8ve unisons. I'm also big on improvisation, which doesn't feature
in Partch's music at all.

There's some choice Partch on YouTube right now - not least The Delusion of the Fury in its entirety (!) and a wonderful clip of HP free-styling in the kitchen (!!).

WAV - before you cause actual nervous breakdowns, I suggest you seek some off-line advice for some much-needed clarification regarding musical harmony. Try your local music teacher, or perhaps have a word with P & K as to how harmony works in shape-note singing.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 May 08 - 03:49 PM

Sorry - P & C, or rather C & P!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:08 PM

"Ted the tenor, and George the baritone singing from the same hymn sheet...and you're looking at the SAME! top-line melody (in A! given key) and listening to the same organ as you do so - you are NOT, thus, singing in different keys/you are singing the same top-line with naturally different (sop., tenor, baritone) God-given voices, yes?"

If I wasn't aware already (which I was), this finally settles it, WAV doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm printing this out and will show it to my voice teacher in the morning.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:16 PM

I think, Sedayne, I'll just stick with the the "repetition of relatively simple TUNES" (atop) as with my English folkie foreabears; and the playing and singing of English hymns in the same folkie style (i.e., ignoring the three lines below the top-line in the full-scores of Hymns Ancient and Modern). It's simpler, more authentic (at least as far as E. trads go) and, for me, more enjoyable.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:22 PM

For me Partch just doesn't work with YouTube-quality sound. Nice to see the staging though.

I like the idea of using antihistamines as stage or band names. Val Lergan (a bit like Val Doonican but even more sedative). Ben A. Drill. Perry Actin and the Zirteks.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:37 PM

I just re-checked what I'd read years ago on this: "folk song is usually melodic, not harmonic" (The Hutchinson Encyclopedia); Folk "musical structure is the simple repitition of a tune (with or without chorus)" (Philip's Essential Encyclopedia).

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:40 PM

I'll consult with someone who's far more qualified, than a couple of (questionable) encyclopedia entries, I think.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:54 PM

It's simpler, more authentic (at least as far as E. trads go) and, for me, more enjoyable.

Simpler, yes; more enjoyable, if you say so; but it's not authentic in the slightest - as has been made abundantly clear by the various & erudite posts on this thread. Why open a thread if you're not prepared to actually learn anything?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:11 PM

I have listened, but, to me, those definitions are what actually happens IN PRACTISE at English folk-clubs when an unaccompanied-singer performs a song with a chorus, or a ballad without a chorus.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:20 PM

"It's simpler, more authentic"

Proof please, from three, independent verifiable sources. One of them can't be Hymns Ancient and Modern

Oh and......

"After the initial success of the 1861 original edition, the editors of Hymns Ancient & Modern published the second edition in 1875. This became the most successful hymnal in the Church of England for more than 75 years and is still in print today. A supplement of 176 hymns was added in 1889. An attempt was made to introduce an historically more accurate new edition of 1904, but after this failed to sell, some of the less controversial material from that edition was added in a second supplement of 140 hymns in 1916. After 1924, the second edition with its two supplements was dubbed the "Standard Edition" of Hymns Ancient & Modern.

In 1950 the revised edition was published with G.H. Knight and J. Dykes having both edited since the death of Nicholson. Many hymns were weeded out for the 1950 edition as the editors wished, in part, to make space for more recent compositions, and in part to thin out the over-supplemented previous versions. In 1983 the New Standard edition was published; this comprised 333 of the 636 hymns included in A and M Revised and the entire 200-hymn contents of 100 Hymns for Today (1969) and More Hymns for Today (1980).

The most recent (2000) edition is called Common Praise, published by Canterbury Press. It is still used in a few parishes.

It seems the hymnal doesn't even bear the title, that WAV has been using, anymore.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:27 PM

"I have listened, but, to me, those definitions are what actually happens IN PRACTISE at English folk-clubs"

Funny, when I attended university in England and went to a fair number of clubs, and, indeed, sang, what you state as actually happening rarely did...

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:41 PM

I think I know what you're getting at, CR: occasionally the folk-club chorus will do something more-sophisticated than just singing in-tune with the perfomer - I gave the eg of The Drunken Sailor above; and I accept that one of those encyclopedias, above, does say "USUALLY melodic, not harmonic." And how about you coming up with "three, independent verifiable sources"!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 May 08 - 07:14 PM

WAV--when you play the top line of anything written out in four parts, you playing a part that was written to fit in with the other three lines--

A rule of thumb may dictate that the "top line" is the melody, but it is the melody as conceived by the arranger--even if it is a "folk" melody, it has been regularized to conform to the conventions of standard music theory--meaning that phrase length, note duration, and scale conform to classical rules, that classical cadences, endings, and ornaments are used, and that melody notes may be altered to facilitate classical chordal movements.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 May 08 - 01:30 AM

"melody notes may be altered to facilitate classical chordal movements."

Or modified to fit in with restricted vocal ranges. These may include 'octave jumping', or even '4th or 5th jumping'. In a full '4 part harmony' arrangement, the 'melody' can be passed between parts.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:50 AM

Okay - but, in several cases, composers such as RVW added the other three lines (and occasionally one more above for boy-sopranos) to our hymns LATER: and some were indeed folk-tunes, yes?. Futher, if someone sings and plays just the tune of an E. trad on, say, an English concertina it sounds great/as good as anything to my ear.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:56 AM

"to my ear." - Everyone gets the message, you prefer simple melodies played on the top line...

So why do you insist on claiming that a whole tradition matches something that suits your taste? Just because you enjoy a certain thing, whether it be a food, type of music, does not mean you should enforce your tastes on eeveryone else, which seems to be what you are suggesting.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 May 08 - 09:51 AM

Two of the oldest English pieces known are the morris-like dance tune in the Coventry MS, which has a written-out ending in two parts, and "Sumer is icumen in", which is in six parts. The Coventry tune is folk by any standard and dates, I think, from around 1240. So RVW harmonizing hymn tunes is not some newfangled alien idea.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 May 08 - 10:08 AM

RVW collected folk songs and used them in his work. Those folksongs are available as he collected and transcribed them. Likely someone has done scholarly work that compares his works to the material he collected. If one had the object of playing "E trad" music, the collected folksongs, rather than the composed works, would be the more suitable source.

The hymns that he edited and arranged cannot reliably be considered English folksongs. In the Introduction to The English Hymnal, Mr. Williams enumerates his sources:

The following classification shows the chief sources from which the tunes come:--

A. GERMAN.--(1) Lutheran chorale tunes 16th and 17th centuries. (2) Tunes from the 16th and 17th century Catholic song books (chiefly Leisentritt's, 1567, and the Andernach Gesangbuch, 1608). (3) Tunes of the 18th century, chiefly by Bach and Freylinghausen. (4) Modern German tunes. (5) German traditional melodies.

B. FRENCH AND SWISS.--(1) Tunes from the Genevan Psalters of the 16th century. (2) Ecclesiastical melodies from the paroissiens of various French uses (chiefly those of Rouen and Angers). (3) French and Swiss traditional melodies.

C. ITALIAN, SPANISH, FLEMISH, DUTCH.--Ecclesiastical, traditional, and other melodies from these countries are also included.

D. AMERICAN.--Among American tunes may be mentioned Lowell Mason's tunes, certain tunes from 'Sacred Songs and Solos' and a few 'Western melodies' in use in America as hymn tunes.

E. BRITISH ISLES.--I. Ireland. (1) Irish traditional melodies. (2) Tunes by Irish composers.

II. Scotland. (1) Melodies from the Scottish Psalters of the 16th and 17th centuries. (2) Melodies from the Scottish tune-books of ihe 18th and 19th centuries. (3) Scottish traditional melodies.

III. Wales. (1) Archdeacon Prys' Psalter, which contains the. famous tune 'St. Mary'. (2) Welsh traditional melodies. (3) Tunes by 18th and 19th century Welsh composers, which partake decidedly of the nature of their traditional melodies.

IV. England. (1) Tunes from Day's, Damon's, Este's, Ravenscroft's, and Playford's Psalters of the 16th and 17th centuries (the original versions of these, with the melody in the tenor, are occasionally included as alternatives to the modern version). (2) Tunes by Tallis, Gibbons, Lawes, &c., from their own collections. (3) Tunes from 18th century books--especially those by J. Clark and Dr. Croft. (4) English carol, and other traditional melodies. (5) Tunes by 19th and 20th century composers.

R. Vaughan Williams

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 May 08 - 10:30 AM

"The problem with not having a proper Education, is that the less one has learnt, the more one thinks one knows."

:-)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 08 - 10:37 AM

: 07 May 08 - 05:50 AM

Okay - but, in several cases, composers such as RVW added the other three lines (and occasionally one more above for boy-sopranos) to our hymns LATER: and some were indeed folk-tunes, yes?. Futher, if someone sings and plays just the tune of an E. trad on, say, an English concertina it sounds great/as good as anything to my ear.
I totally disagree,while accompaniment should be accompaniment,the addition of harmony on the English Concertina is preferable to single line melody,or can make a nice change to single line melody or single line harmony, if used as well, an example is on my website,the Banks of Claudy.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 08 - 11:11 AM

Okay, thanks, and perhaps those behind the above-mentioned encyclopedia were aware of such cases when they put "USUALLY melodic, not harmonic"...Mudcat's Dig. Trad., of course, offers just the tune with a link to a Dulcimer Tab...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 May 08 - 11:24 AM

It's a steep learning curve, WAV, but once at the top the view's pretty good - at least as far as the next & steeper hill anyway. Whatever the case, the important thing is to keep moving, question everything &, most importantly, don't come to any conclusions.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 08 - 12:03 PM

...I think that's a tad condescending, Sedayne, but, anyway, for what it's worth, I shall add "MOSTLY" to the atop definition/conclusion on my website.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 07 May 08 - 12:24 PM

Thank the maker I took up the Irish Bouzouki.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 08 - 12:44 PM

Many tunes (both fiddle type tunes and songs) imply chords. But many do NOT do so at all. In many such cases, putting chords under the tune butchers it -- my opinion of course. English dance tunes often are very chordal in nature, Irish tunes often not, thus accompaniments are often not too much more than one chord, and players of things like bouzouki are often playing the tune with some drone strings sounding. To force standard chords on to these, in my opinion, does real harm, and one needs to provide supporting accompaniment (if at all) with considerably more skill and taste then "Where do I change from C to G?".

This is perhaps even more true for the songs. Listen (among countless others) to some of the old ballads on the Jean Ritchie ballad records from folkways (now reissued   on CD and available from Jean and George). TO put chords under these would be a complete nightmare. . .
sorry I cant entirely agree,standard chords fit some irish tunes,it really depends on the tune.
chords in open tunings work quite well for the guitar,for example first and fifth,with perhaps a sus 4 or ninth,very often the tunes in modes other than the major ,[the mixolydian and the dorian],work with chords providing the third is left out.
some tunes that are very major orientated sound alright with standard chords.
a chord is any combination of any notes more than two,two notes are dyads.
now obviously drone notes work fine as well
alot of scottish/shetland tunes wotk very well with the jazzy chordal accompaniment that Willie Johnson used.
yet alot of these tunes are in the same modes as the Irish tunes,so logically the willie johnson stryle should work for some irish tunes as well.
there is avery beautiful version of Barbara Allen performed by jean Ritchie.Ialso have recorded this sing with the concertina using chordal accompaniment[see youtube dickmilesmusic]very different form JeanRichie but it works.http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=V_PoPY-mDpA

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 07 May 08 - 03:00 PM

"I think I know what you're getting at, CR"

You have no idea what I'm getting at.

"And how about you coming up with "three, independent verifiable sources"!"

I'm not the one making the dubious claims and seeing as you failed ,to do so, sunshine....and yes I am being condescending.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:05 PM

I think that's a tad condescending, Sedayne

Patronising I'll accept, but my intention was to be encouraging.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:09 PM

So you, latter, two are the superiors of one who has achieved 4 technical certificates, a degree in humanities, travel on a shoestring through about 40 countries, has placed in folk-festival competitions, has played A-grade junior football and tennis...who's deluding themself?