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BS: Snow Tires
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Subject: BS: Snow Tires From: 3refs Date: 28 Jan 10 - 09:00 AM I live in what's reffered to as "The Snow Belt" here in central Ontario, about an hour or so north of Tor...Ter...Tar...the north shore of Lake Ontario. Owned everything from Caddys, to Vets, to pick-ups and the odd foreign thing or two, and never owned or bought snow tires in my life. The wife's car, a 04 Ford Taurus(I have a Ford Ranger 4X4 with mudders) had 4 Michelin performance tires and they did the job rather well. She got stuck in our own driveway just before Christmas this year, so I thought the time has come to get her some winter tires. $300 and change later, for two front tires, I couldn't believe the difference they made. So after 35+ years of driving in the worst shit you've ever seen, I'll never own another car, that I don't put snow tires on it in the winter time. When Quebec made it law to have snow tires, I thought "what a bunch of &%**&^%"! Good move and I wish they'd do it here in Ontario!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Rapparee Date: 28 Jan 10 - 09:24 AM I had a 1975 Honda Civic, put snow tires on the front ("Hey, buddy, you got yer tires on the wrong end, har har!"), and drove through three blizzards in two years, as well as the usual 120 annual inches of snow where I worked. This was the "snow belt East of the City" (Cleveland). A couple of years I had studded tires, but they seemed no better than regular ones. I was never stuck, although I did rescue the occasional Cadillac owner. Get 'em -- they work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: GUEST,bankley Date: 28 Jan 10 - 09:30 AM It's a good idea.... but I once had a set of snow tires that I brought in the house and they melted... just rims and water left... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 28 Jan 10 - 09:53 AM I've owned nothing but Subarus in the last 10 years .... never bothered with snow tires at all .... never had any problems at all getting through the snow ... even getting up our street which is on a rather steep hill. Live in south New Brunswick ..... the snow can be rather deep and wet. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:07 AM Snow tires are great! I use them religiously. Subarus are also great, and I own one. A Subaru with snow tires, needless to say, is the ultimate solution to the problem. I do have snow tires on the Subaru, but unlike almost all Subarus, mine is only a 2-wheel drive, so I would not want to risk winter driving in it without the snow tires on. The worst vehicle I've driven in winter is a Mazda van with rear wheel drive. Damn little traction when it's not heavily loaded, and damn poor ability on slippery surfaces. I do not care for rear wheel drive at all in the winter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Beer Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:10 AM I don't think a law was needed. Living in the north country, it just makes sense to put them on. Quebec went a bit over board though. I believe it starts next Dec.15th that if the snow tire you have now does not have the snowflake symbol on it than you will be fined and have to purchase the tires with it. The winter tires on my car and truck don't have the symbol and they are just like new. So for next year I am f**&^$* Beer (adrien) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: pdq Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:20 AM If you can only afford two "snow tires" and not a whole set of four (or five), put them on the drive axle (2-wheel drive vehicles only). Never mix tires on a 4-wheel drive as it will damage transfer case and other driveline components. In most cases, it will cause danderous handing problems when the 4-wheel drive feature is engaged. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:26 AM Hmmm. Well, I wasn't quite sure, so I put 4 snow tires on my 2-wheel drive Subaru just to be safe. It seemed like the better way to go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Ed T Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:33 AM Never put two snow tires on the front of front wheel drive cars, without putting them on the back. It can result in serious handling issues. If you feel you must put only two of them, you would be better off putting them on the back wheels. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Ed T Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:45 AM I have four snows on my Subaru....a four wheel may have better traction, but does not stop you any faster. All seasons and summers loose alot of their gripping (and stopping) abilities as temperatures go low. http://www.driving.ca/winterdriving/story.html?id=6da915ea-c651-4fef-b7a3-8366cc87deae |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: pdq Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:49 AM Dear Ed T, Where do you get your information? The non-drive rear axle of a front drive two-wheel drive vehicle is just a steel tube with bearing hubs on the ends. Putting "snow tires" there causes no problems but gains nothing in the form of improved traction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Louie Roy Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:18 AM I've been using snow tires since 1950 when they first came out with the sawdust tread and they worked but didn't last long then they used walnut shells then glass and each one was an improvement but when the race cart driver invented the steel studds that was the greatest thing that could have happened to the car owner on snow and icey roads. It is really interesting the trial and error he put into this invention and how he finally goy the auto industry to acknownledge it.One other thing I want to mention if you buy snow tires from Les Schwab they won't put them on your car unless you put them on all 4 wheels. They have already been sued by people who only had them on the front or the back and had an accident and lost the case and paid a hefty fine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: kendall Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:28 AM I've owned front wheel drive cars for many years and have never been stuck. A good quality set of all weather tires will do just fine unless you are the guy who has to get to the snowplow that you drive. Four wheel drive is a lot of hype. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:40 AM I'm not so sure about that, Kendall. We once had a 4-wheel drive Subaru, and at low speeds that thing would not lose traction on ANY surface, not even on wet glare ice. It was simply incredible. Mind you, that's for low speed traction ONLY on rough or slippery terrain. That's where 4-wheel drive is really handy. I see no point at all in using it at medium to higher speeds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Geoff the Duck Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:42 AM Cross Channel Alert!!!!! Of course on this side of the pond we use Tyres on our cars, and don't get regular enough snow to justify special winter ones. Considering the above, the thread title read as the statement "Snow Tires", and I would concur. Just walking on the stuff is considerably more exhausting than walking on clear ground. Quack! GtD. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:45 AM Are there a lot of duck hunters in the UK? I hope not, for your sake. There are plenty of them around here, so bear that in mind if you decide to fly over some time and visit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Alice Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:49 AM Putting studded snow tires on my Subaru in the winter has prevented many accidents where I otherwise would not have been able to control or stop on ice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: CarolC Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:52 AM I used studs one winter for my commute to work. I had a 40 minute drive that involved going up and down a mountain on very twisty roads in an area that had an average yearly snowfall of 100 inches, and was very prone to icing over. I had tried sawdust retreads but nearly got myself killed, and decided to get the studs. I was very glad I had them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:53 AM There's a considerable difference between 4 wheel drive and all wheel drive. Having owned 4 wheel drive Jeeps and all wheel drive Subarus ... I'd say the Suby's are much more reliable than the Jeeps when it comes to deep snow driving. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: catspaw49 Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:02 PM Our problem here is ice. We have snow of course, but often as not it is preceded and followed by sleet and icing. Studs are the only way to go. For years Karen drove her 100 mile round trip in a BWM 528 with all four corners on studs during the winter. The damn thing was great. I really don't care much for front wheel drive for a lot of reasons but that's about it anymore, at least in anything we can afford nowadays. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Jack the Sailor Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:08 PM I would say for rear wheel drive cars and trucks rear snow tires are best. For front wheel drive, I'd say Kendall was right on. You will rarely know the difference. The best cars I have ever seen in the snow are big 4wd pickups with huge snow tires or our Subaru Forester with all season tires. All this being said, when I lived in near Toronto in the late eighties, I had a rwd Datsun b210 with all season tires and had no trouble getting around in the snow. One day when people were told to go home early because of a storm at work, I had to teach five people how to drive in the snow so that they could get out of the parking lot. A lot depends upon your ability to drive in snow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Geoff the Duck Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:29 PM Little Hawk - Just remember we Ducks only have short legs! The webbing may help on firm snow, but if you get the stuff on top of them, they are a sod to lift! Even more tiring... Quack! GtD. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Alice Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:30 PM If you live where there is snow and ICE, studded tires are safest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Jack the Sailor Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:34 PM In my experience, if there is ICE on paved roads, its best to wait for the salt trucks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Alice Date: 28 Jan 10 - 01:43 PM LOL.... we have thousands of miles of roads with ice on them in the winter in Montana, and there are NO salt trucks on them! The runoff would be like sea water if they salted all the ice in a Montana winter. Even the city streets do not get salt that would melt the ice, just some sand at major intersections. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Alice Date: 28 Jan 10 - 01:46 PM I shouldn't say no salt at all, but the damage to soils and water from salt - the cities try to minimize. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: JohnInKansas Date: 28 Jan 10 - 01:51 PM Without understanding of what tire properties can (and cannot) do for you, the principal effect of four wheel drive is well known to be: "They allow you to get stuck deeper, so that it takes a bigger tow truck to get you out." Used knowledgeably, (a rather rare happening) they can allow you to get around in more difficult conditions. Whether the 2WD vehicle is front or rear drive, the most dangerous handling condition while the vehicle is moving is when the rear wheels lose traction. If you are moving forward, loss of traction on the rear presents a very high probability that the vehicle will "swap ends" in an imitation of what old-timers in my area called a "bootlegger's turn." For this maneuver, preferably done only on dirt/sand roads where traction is not perfect, locking the rear wheels while at "escape speed" (by stomping really hard on the parking brake) results in an immediate 180 degree pivot so you are facing in the opposite direction while the pursuing rev'noor zips past you. Properly done you'll also decelerate enough to regain traction to make a "J-hook" mark on the roadway and can then go on to deliver your goods while the pursuer looks for a place to turn around. The earliest front wheel drive vehicles tended to 60/40 weight distribution, with 60% of the vehicle weight on the front axle and 40% on the rear. The light rear axle loading made many of them quite prone to doing an "end around" with even a light touch on the brakes if the traction was poor. On ice, crossing a ridge in the tracks left by other vehicles could "detach" the rear, resulting in lots of sideward slides, usually off into a ditch. There has been some improvement of weight distribution in more recent FWD vehicles, to put a little more weight on the rear axles, but the more important change has been "proportioning" of the brake systems so that very little braking effect is applied at the rear axle, and nearly all is to the front. The "improvements" do not change the simple physics, and it remains true that in most situations the traction available at the rear of the vehicle is absolutely the most critical factor in handling (trajectory control, for many of the *&#! "drivers" around you) while you have some forward speed. Unless you realistically plan never to exceed a speed from which you will coast to a stop within one length of the vehicle without braking, under all conditions you may encounter you need traction on the rear wheels at least comparable to what you have on the front. If you need snow tires on one axle, you really need them on both axles. If the front "breaks loose" you normally will proceed in a fairly straight line in your original directiion, with some increase in stopping distance. If the rear comes loose, you have virtually no control over what direction the vehicle will go. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Jack the Sailor Date: 28 Jan 10 - 02:00 PM Salt, sand, whatever they use. I tried to avoid fresh ice when I drove in in wintry conditions. On the other hand. If you have thousands of miles of untreated icy roads, which you drive on then studs might be best. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Jeri Date: 28 Jan 10 - 02:20 PM I wonder what Quebec will do to people from south of the border who know how to drive in the snow but don't have snow tires on? I used to always use snow tires, and for a while, studded snow tires. I haven't put any on my car since I've had front wheel (and all-wheel for a while) drive. I've been temporarily delayed when trying to move a car that was stopped in too much snow or on ice, and I've had to (shock/horror) slow down when traveling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: kendall Date: 28 Jan 10 - 02:29 PM Where we live the towns and cities have the equipment to deal with snow and ice making 4 wheel drive or all wheel drive unnecessary. In foul weather I like to count the vehicles in the ditch or tits up on the median and I've noticed that 9 out of 10 of them are Urban assault vehicles. Too many people get the idea that these hogs are invincible until they try to stop or make a quick steering adjustment. In such cases they are no better than any other vehicle. Worse, because people get a false sense of security. And, in these parts, if you run studded tires you have to take them off before the 1st of May because they damage the road surface. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Alice Date: 28 Jan 10 - 02:34 PM Yes, you have to take the studded tires off in the spring. Can't use them all year round because of road damage. Studded tires are permitted from Oct 1 to May 31 in Montana. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: gnu Date: 28 Jan 10 - 02:48 PM Kendall... VW Bug had a commercial years ago about that... "Ever wonder how the snowplow driver gets TO the snowplow?" I had a Bug with 6.5s snow tires with studs when I lived in Fredericton, New Brunswick. That sucker could climb and descend the hills! And my buddy had a Mini that was surprisingly good in snow. Here's a 16" tire that I put on on the rear of my last truck. I kid you not... I was AMAZED at how good they were in snow and in no snow. And they were quiet! I'd never buy anything else again. Check out the Wrangler SilentArmor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: olddude Date: 28 Jan 10 - 02:56 PM I live in the snow belt right outside of Buffalo. Without snow tires we would all be doomed ... It makes one heck of a difference. However will do nothing to help ya with the black ice. 4 wheel drive and some great tires is a must around here or you will never get out of your driveway most winters |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Beer Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:03 PM Throw you in Jail Jeri until you become perfectly bilingual.he!he! ad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: gnu Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:04 PM BTW... as posted above, driving in snow and ice conditions sakely and securely depends more upon the driver's ability than on the tires. The cardinal rule, taught to me by my old man, is "The slower you are going when you hit something, the less it costs to fix." Of course, sometimes you have to use speed to defeat snow, but ya gotta know when not to as well. Here's a tip I learned "by mistake". I know few peeps that knew this before I did it while they were with me. Rear wheel drive only!!! If you need to accelerate more rapidly for any reason, "rock" the vehicle from side to side with the steering wheel (from about ten to about two, with less than a second per "rock") as you depress the gas pedal. Try it. Might take a wee bit of practice but it works well. Ahhh... "try it"... in an empty parking lot, of course. Which is where everyone learning to drive in snow should start. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: gnu Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:07 PM Beer... the customs guys will inspect the tires for the flake at the border and wave anybody without the flake right through. Then call the QPP just up around the next bend. Big money. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Bill D Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:20 PM I never lived where snow & ice were a serious problem all Winter, but the one time I DID have studded tires, they were they only thing that got me home one day. One of those freezing drizzle days at 25F. I started home from work and fell on my butt just trying to scrape the windows...then when I turned onto a main road, there was a red light, and only one car was getting thru on each light change! I puttered gaily homeward in my OLD VW bus (rear engine!)with studded tires (came with the used vehicle). I went up hills, around other cars which were just spinning tires. I went into driveways, thru parking lots...anything to get past cars which couldn't move. A trip which normally took me 30 minutes took 2 hours. (I could have done it in under an hour if all those non-studded tire folks had gotten out of my way!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Donuel Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:06 PM Some States have special rules for cars with studded tires. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Beer Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:59 PM It is a type of drug that is free. ad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Ed T Date: 28 Jan 10 - 07:51 PM pdq: First, all snows and all the same 4 tires are the best....and recommended. Your description of how the rear wheels contribute to the operation of todays fwd cars is an oversimplication. It's just more complex than that. Braking- you don't want the car swinging around on you.( as if you pull the e-brake while steering - try it on ice/snow and see how much control you have) . Under braking, most of the weight is transferred to the front wheels, providing them with increased grip. This would also mean that the rear wheels are unweighted during braking, and thus already at a disadvantage in terms of applying grip Then, in snow, this would mean those tires which weren't gripping much in the first place, are then providing even less traction, thus making the car prone to spinning... so, you want to balance the overall stability and traction of the vehicle by putting the snow tires on the rear. 2- Cornering - again, the rear end will increasingly swing out. Unlike on pavement where there is a great deal of friction to control a slide, on snow, you get a microscopic layer of water under the tire, and rather than grip, it will send you into a 180 because there is simply no friction to stop the slide. (Snow tires are designed with siping(little grooves or holes int he tread) and softer rubber which grips the road better in colder conditions. Most important is the siping - it absorbs that tiny layer of water which develops under the tire when it compresses ice/snow. When rotating, it flings the water out of the tread, ready to grip the next time it contacts the ground) I submit that no reputable tire shop will install two new (winter or other) tires on the front of a FWD vehicle....check it out. Grippier tires on the front than the back make the vehicle unstable when you need control, going around corners and braking, the rear end wants to spin around every time you go to stop on a wet or icy road? Try a google search under 2 tires, front or back....you will find few if any reputable sites recommend you put new tires, or snow tires on the front of a fwd car. Also, try the links below:. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouEydNw5B4Y&feature=player_embedded#at=68 http://www.canadiandriver.com/2006/10/04/auto-tech-preparing-for-the-winter-tire-season.htm http://www.michelinman.com/tire-care/tire-basics/reartire-change/ http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=52 http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTiresRear.dos |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: pdq Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:04 PM "Never put two snow tires on the front of front wheel drive cars, without putting them on the back. It can result in serious handling issues. If you feel you must put only two of them, you would be better off putting them on the back wheels." ~ Ed T I was responding to that statement and that statement only. You spoke of two new tire and did not specify 4 wheel drive. Please respond only to what I say or do not respond at all. OK? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: ragdall Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:22 PM I don't think a law was needed. Living in the north country, it just makes sense to put them on. Quebec went a bit over board though. I believe it starts next Dec.15th that if the snow tire you have now does not have the snowflake symbol on it than you will be fined and have to purchase the tires with it. The winter tires on my car and truck don't have the symbol and they are just like new. So for next year I am f**&^$* Beer (adrien) Beer, I can see a market here for someone to make stick-on snowflake symbols for tires. I wonder who will step up and do it? rags |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: kendall Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:37 PM I've had a couple of VW bugs and they will go through places that would scare a full size 4 wheel drive pickup. The truck's weight is what kills it in rutted muddy trails in the woods. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: catspaw49 Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:46 PM There's no "might" to studded tires and to be truthful, a rear wheel drive with studded tires front and rear will get you wherer you want to go far more safely than anything else. There are regulations regarding the periods of usage but that's not a problem. I had two sets of rims as well and the changeover was quick and easy. We drove through an ice and snow storm coming back from Pittsburgh one night and were just about the only thing moving very well. Tons of cars off the road but common sense and a slow pace combined with "UberPanzer" and we made it home when we had to. UberPanzer.......because on a dry road, the 4 studded tires along with the normal 6 cylinder BMW engine sound was sorta' tanklike and her ability to go through anything made the name a real fit. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Beer Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:51 PM A little info on the Quebec Law. What is the definition of winter tires? The regulation defines tires specifically designed for winter driving as those that meet one of the following criteria prior to December 15, 2014: Tires on which one of the following inscriptions appear: Alaska, Arctic, A/T or AT, AT/S, AT-S , Blizzard, Cresta, Ice, INSA T1, INSA T2, INSA TT770, LT, Nordic, Snow (but not mud and snow), Stud, Studdable, Studded, Studless, TS, Ultra grip , Ultratraction or Winter, or the icon representing a mountain with a superimposed snowflake. Or Tires that are equipped with studs and used in accordance with the Regulation respecting the use of non-skid devices on the tires of certain road vehicles. Starting on December 15, 2014, tires will have to bear the icon or be equipped with studs and be used in accordance with the Regulation respecting the use of non-skid devices on the tires of certain road vehicles. Are vehicles from outside of Québec affected by this measure? No, with the exception of certain rental vehicles. The legislative provision applies to vehicles (taxis and passenger vehicles) registered in Québec, as well as to passenger vehicles that are rented in Québec (regardless of where they are registered). Are there fines for offenders? Yes, fines range from $200 to $300. http://www.mtq.gouv.qc.ca/portal/page/portal/grand_public_en/vehicules_promenade/securite_routiere/securite_conditions_hivernale |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Ed T Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:52 PM pdq Don't know what you mean. was not refering to 4wd. Not looking for a fight on stupid stuff....lok it up yourself |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Beer Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:49 PM I'm working on it Rags. ad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: EBarnacle Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:19 PM I agree with Kendall. I have been driving Front Wheel Drive for 40 years and find that snows on the front tires will get me out of anything I care to drive in. If conditions are too bad for driving in FWD, they are too dangerous for 4WD or AWD. Don't tempt fate by taking unnecessary chances. Work can wait for a day or you can phone it in. If it cannot [as when I was classed as "essential personnel at the hospital where I worked] you can get transport from the police if anything is moving. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:59 PM You wouldn't think snow tires would be needed in California, but the snow can get quite heavy in the Sierra Nevada. I live right on the first chain-control border of Interstate 80. When the weather is really bad, there may be a requirement for chains the last mile before my house, but I haven't had to put on chains in the eight years I've lived here. I have a Subaru with "all-wheel drive" and "all-weather" tires, and that seems to work fine in most situations here. I'd say they have chain regulations at my elevation about once or twice a year, but sometimes not for two or three years. The chains really tear up the asphalt pavement, so I wish they'd close the road instead of requiring chains. There's concrete at higher elevations, and that doesn't get damaged by chains as easily. Here are the California regulations:
During the winter months, motorists may encounter traction chain controls in the mountain areas within California. When chain controls are established, signs will be posted along the road indicating the type of requirement. There are three requirements in California. Here's another article I found very informative:
Tire Chains for Winter UseA snowstorm can quickly change driving on mountain roads from an enjoyable adventure into a hazardous experience. Years ago, government agencies in mountainous regions required vehicles to be equipped with tire chains (or at least have them stored in the trunk) before the vehicle would be allowed to begin travel through snow covered mountain passes during winter storm periods. In the mid-1990s, Transport Canada (Canada's counterpart to the U.S. Department of Transportation) requested a new tire standard be developed to help ensure consumers could easily identify and purchase tires designed to provide a higher level of traction in harsh winter conditions. By the turn of the century, The U.S. Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) and the Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) agreed on a performance based standard to identify tires that met the severe snow service standards and would be branded on their sidewalls with a “snowflake-on-the-mountain” symbol. In addition to tire chains, winter tires meeting this performance standard are also considered traction devices, allowing passage in many mountainous regions. As always, when in doubt, contact area authorities to confirm local tire chain regulations. If tire chains are required, here are 10 basic guidelines for their use: While it sounds like snow chains are considered a last resort for when the conditions get really bad, preparation before driving into snow country in winter is important because it helps control a potentially frustrating and tiring driving experience. NOTE: Tire Rack does not sell tire chains at this time. -Joe in Colfax, California (2,300 feet elevation)- | ||||||||
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Janie Date: 29 Jan 10 - 01:35 AM All-weather radials work fine for where I live in central North Carolina. If we have an ice storm, I stay home, or go in late after the temps rise, and leave early, before they drop, and so does everybody else. Nothing runs safely on straight ice with no snow cover at all, and the ice never stays around long enough to warrant studs or chains. 1 1/2 inches of snow on cold roads will shut everything down here, though. We don't get much snow, but we get some snow most winters. Since we don't get much snow, highway maintenance depts don't have the equipment or stockpiles of salt to treat anything but the the big arteries quickly. Temps warm-up enough during the day to create melt that freezes into sheets of ice overnight on the many rural roads in the area, and it can be hard to make it out to the main highways. I do not understand, though, why so many drivers here do not just go ahead and buy all-weather radials. (I don't know why anyone who lives where it rains doesn't run all-weather radials.) Funny, in many ways I find driving during snowy or icy weather much more treacherous here than in WV, simply because of the hazard caused by the number of drivers without experience driving on slick roads, and without all-weather tires. It is a common observation among those of us who have transplanted here from further north, or from higher elevations. Had a VW bug for my first car in WV. Didn't put snow tires on it, but didn't need them. Did run snow tires and loaded sandbags or cinderblocks in the trunk or truckbed when necessary when I sold the VW and had vehicles without frontwheel drive back before all-weather radials came out. (still used the sandbags or cinderblocks, though.) And kept a set of chains in the trunk when I lived in Morgantown, in the northern part of WV. Only used them twice, though. I recall that my Dad did go with studs during the winter when he was working. He travelled alot, throughout WV and western PA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Janie Date: 29 Jan 10 - 01:56 AM sort of thread drift....is there a difference between 4 wheel drive and all wheel drive? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Teribus Date: 29 Jan 10 - 01:58 AM On which set of wheels to put new tyres or winter tyres on a front-wheel drive car if you are only replacing two at a time. Ed T is perfectly correct you put the tyres with the new treads on the rear wheels. This lesson I learned to my cost when with new tyres fitted to the front I "lost" the back-end of the car on a sharp bend and wrote the car off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 29 Jan 10 - 03:24 AM As far as snow tires, besides getting them studded, make sure they're 'siped'. Unbelievable traction over snow and ice! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: gnu Date: 29 Jan 10 - 06:46 AM Janie... AWD is all the time. 4WD is selectable rear or AWD. There are various types of power transfer for each, but that is the essential difference. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: kendall Date: 29 Jan 10 - 07:18 AM Who would want to go to Quebec in the winter? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Beer Date: 29 Jan 10 - 09:07 AM Hay Kendall.....Why didn't you just say Canada. All Provinces up this way are about the same. Snow, snow, snow. Ad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jan 10 - 11:23 AM What do you mean by "siped", GfS? As for studded tires, I'm not sure if they're legal in Ontario. I don't recall seeing any here in a long time. Gotta check up on that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: kendall Date: 29 Jan 10 - 02:05 PM Beer, because the focus was on Quebec. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: pdq Date: 29 Jan 10 - 02:41 PM The word "siping", as a verb, means "to make many shallow cuts in the contact sufface of a perfectly good tire". {my definition, of course} It may improve traction in some cases, but it absolutely accelerates tire wear and may void your warranty. As to the term "all-wheel drive" and "4 wheel drive", they mean exactly the same thing. I'm sure there will be a round of posts desputing that but so be it. The fact is that each term carries baggage from the characteristics of the 4WD systems used by companies that use these terms. The difference is in the systems, not the terms. 4 wheels drive systems can be "full time" or "part time" to start with, but subtly differences are many. Subaru does not use a transfer case but separates power to the drive axels in a specially-designed transmission. It works very well in family transportation but is not competetive in "hardcore" off-road applications. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Ed T Date: 29 Jan 10 - 03:00 PM "Who would want to go to Quebec in the winter?" One of the best times of my youth was at the Quebec Winter Carnival....wouldn't want to drive then though....had far too much Caribou....a wine enhanced with alcohol, drank from hollow canes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: robomatic Date: 29 Jan 10 - 03:40 PM I like my snow tires so much I use 'em year round (they're not studded of course). If you want to carry chains, but don't need to use them very much, I was very happy with plastic chains. They got a good grip, they could achieve a slightly higher speed, and you could drive them briefly on asphalt (between snow piles) without much noise or harm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: 3refs Date: 29 Jan 10 - 06:21 PM Studded tires are a no-no in Ontario, but chains are legal if you need them! Had our worst storm of the year yesterday. White-outs most of the day. Now it's 25 freakin below and supposed to be colder tonight! Looks like the fish hut will remain vacant this week-end!..........or booked for the night! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: JohnInKansas Date: 29 Jan 10 - 06:38 PM As used by most current manufacturers/advertisers, AWD (all wheel drive) has a rather different meaning and purpose than 4WD. Currently common AWD vehicles do apply torque to all four wheels, but the purpose is NOT to provide you the ability to get across rugged terrain. The AWD feature improves handling, and especially side-slip stability on ordinary "good" road surfaces, but is not intended to be used "off-road." In most of the more-or-less "passenger vehicles" the coupling between front and rear axles is through a fluid coupling that applies a small fraction of the drive torque (typically around 15 - 20%) to the secondary axle, with the remainder going to the "primary drive axle." There generally is no "lockup" or anti-slip differential between the two axles, and the majority of the "consumer class" AWD vehicles do not have anti-slip or lockup differentials on either axle, so any one wheel that lacks traction does all the spinning, and torque to the remaining wheels drops to (near) zero. (A side feature is that setting the parking brake when you jack up many AWD vehicles to change a tire does not prevent the vehicle from rolling off the jack. WHEEL CHOCKS MUST BE USED AT ALL FOUR WHEELS to safely take one wheel off the ground. VOEE1) AWD is sort of a "first step" in a group of "stability enhancements," some of which are beginning to appear in more exotic forms. A couple of newer vehicles feature "levellers" to pump up selected shock absorber struts to apply load differentially to the corner of the vehicle that tends "lift" on curves to inhibit that wheel from "breaking loose." At least one has added a "stability braking" control that applies the brake on one or more wheels when accelerometers sense side loads indicating you're going around a curve. There are several others. ALL OF THESE "enhancements" are intended to improve handling on "improved road surfaces" and NONE are intended to significantly enhance your ability to operate "off-road" or in serious bad weather such as snow and ice. I can attest to the usefulness of AWD. I found it a significant help on Interstate highways in rain, where the water settles into the "wear tracks" and crossing or driving in the tracks requires a lot of attention to "incipient hydroplaning." It's probably most useful on vehicles with large "longitudinal moment of inertia" - i.e. small trucks or (in my case) a fairly heavy passenger van; but it probably would provide somewhat less stressful driving in smaller vehicles. A vehicle intended for off-road or heavy snow should be called a 4WD (assuming it has two axles). It can be a "full time 4WD" or "selectable" but it's a different animal than is intended when the term AWD is used. To be useful, a 4WD must have at least "limited slip" differentials on both axles, and preferably should have a "locked up" or limited-slip differential connection between the axles - neither of which is likely to be found in vehicles labelled as AWD. 1 VOEE = voice of embarrasing (almost) experience. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jan 10 - 06:54 PM Man, was it COLD last night!!! 25 below! The Dachshund has gone on "potty" strike. I managed to start all 3 vehicles today. Pretty good. Had to take the old '92 Subaru for an emmissions test, which it passed with flying colors, then got the new license sticker. That Subaru is some good car. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: gnu Date: 29 Jan 10 - 07:38 PM We just had a week of mild weather after a few weeks of good weather. Past few days were sun and +6C. Today, ya NEED snow tires. LH... an emissions test? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jan 10 - 07:50 PM Yeah. When you get your license sticker renewed in southern Ontario the vehicle owner must provide proof that the vehicle has passed an exhaust emmissions test at a local test centre. They check the amount of pollutants coming out of your exhaust pipe...parts of this and that per million. It's CO2 and something else, I forget what. If you're over the limit, then the car must either be fixed so it passes the test or taken off the road. It's a great way for the car repair people to get another $36 from you each year...at the minimum. I frankly doubt it's had much effect on the environment, but who am I to say? ;-) My van failed the test once, and I had to spend about $350 bucks on some kind of catalytic converter or something to get it to pass...plus take the test twice. $36 each time. Total cost of emissions testing in that case came to about $430 or thereabouts. It helps if you take the car out on the highway and run it hot and fast for twenty minutes right before doing the test. It blows out all the crap. This is not really necessary with the Subaru, but I did it anyway just to be safe. It also helps if you put hi octane gas in the car, and I always do that as a matter of course. It burns cleaner and you get better mileage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: 3refs Date: 29 Jan 10 - 09:09 PM I got em this year! My Ranger is a 91, and it was supposed to be E-Tested in 2010 for the new sticker. My birthday is in February, I recieved the renewal form in November. Where the little asterex should have been for the test wasn't there! Did the renewal "On-line" and about a week later, got my new sticker in the mail! Re-checke the renewwal form, and yes, it should have been tested!!!! So I went out and bought two new Shotguns! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jan 10 - 09:14 PM LOL! What kind? Double or single barrel? Pump or rear loaders? Got recommendations for the best kind to stop a bear? (only if absolutely necessary) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Sawzaw Date: 29 Jan 10 - 10:15 PM There was a big snow storm in Arizona shown on the Weather Channel. They were showing a car with front wheel drive that had chains on the rear wheels. The driver could not figure out what the problem was. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: JohnInKansas Date: 29 Jan 10 - 10:56 PM A bunch of people who almost never need snow tires or chains? In quite a few of the areas being hit with heavy snow, ice, mud slides, and power outages in the current storms from a single pair of weather systems most people get by quite nicely (in ordinary times) without even thinking about extra traction. This is a coast-to-coast event. The snow and ice in the news today are a continuation of the same storm systems that were news along the west coast and out to the Rockies (and a little beyond) last week. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 29 Jan 10 - 11:08 PM pdq: "The word "siping", as a verb, means "to make many shallow cuts in the contact sufface of a perfectly good tire". {my definition, of course}" yes, you can buy them 'siped'..The best for winter! We have both winter and 'the rest of the year's' tires. I'll forgo any disadvantages, because they are so great in the winter! Try some, you'll swear by them! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Janie Date: 29 Jan 10 - 11:16 PM Thanks for the information on AWD vs 4WD. (And John, especially thanks for the information about needing to chock all the tires!) I thought there was a difference but wasn't sure. I've had true 4WD vehicles in the past. Now I have a Subaru. What I have been sure of is that it does not have the ground clearance to go off-road. Looks like this weekend will be my first chance to see what kind of difference AWD may make on snow-covered roads, compared to front-wheel drive. Sawzaw - priceless! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: JohnInKansas Date: 30 Jan 10 - 02:09 AM Just for the sake of filling in all the blanks, you may note the mention of the stability augmentation system that can apply braking to one or more wheels. The majority of braking and stability systems use only the braking effort applied by the driver by pressing down on the brake pedal. Systems in which the vehicle itself can apply the brakes are rather uncommon. Active systems, in which the vehicle itself applies braking are a departure from the most common methods used in Anti-Lock Brake systems, which can only release some part of the braking applied by the driver, at one or more wheels when it determines that a wheel is slipping. With most ABS systems, there is no braking unless you hit the pedal. For the ABS system to work, it must drain off the pressure to one or more wheels, which quite obviously reduces the total braking applied. Under conditions where slip occurs, and the ABS system actually does something, it is very important that you slam hard enough on the brakes so that the ABS system has "extra effect" available to spare what must be thrown away to keep the wheel with poor road adhesion from slipping. Most ABS systems slightly increase braking distance (for panic stops) under most conditions, but that is considered safer than permitting a skid in which the vehicle might go uncontrollably in unwanted directions. Theoretically, if you push too hard on the pedal, all the brakes will be "chattered" equally by the ABS, and you'll still stop about as fast as possible without losing control. If you don't push hard enough, the release of pressure to one wheel may drain pressure from the others, and stopping distance can be very greatly - and somethimes unexpectedly - increased. At least one auto recently included a system in which, when the brakes were applied normally, but one or more wheels were "released" by the ABS, the control system would provide external power to slam the brake pedal "to the floor" to make sure that full ABS control was available. I'm not sure that system still exists, since there were some driver complaints that it was "too aggressive" in common driving situations. A vehicle that can apply its own brakes, as in the above "agumented ABS" or in the wheel-braking stability management system mentioned in the previous post, is as yet rather rare. (It would be expected that the Ford that is able to parallel park itself without driver assistance would have that capability, although aggressive braking shouldn't be needed; but I haven't seen details.) John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: gnu Date: 30 Jan 10 - 05:44 AM "since there were some driver complaints that it was "too aggressive" in common driving situations"... Mum's new Chrysler and my new ford pickup are this way. Bugs me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Charmion Date: 30 Jan 10 - 10:56 AM Edmund and I run two diesel Volkswagens on Continental snow tires, which go on every year as soon as the day-time highs drop below freezing. Eastern Ontario gets a rock-n-roll winter -- rain on Monday, snow on Wednesday, deep freeze on Friday. (Today's forecast high is -14 Celsius and yesterday topped out at -20. Monday's high was +8 Celsius.) The multi-layered mess of lumpy ice that builds up at intersections produces fishtailing on acceleration and the occasional "doughnut", our name for the "bootlegger's turn". Fishtailing is often seen in taxis, which tend to be clapped-out Chevy Caprices driven by tired men who grew up in south Asia or central Africa. In the Ottawa Valley, you really want the sticky tread of snow tires -- but not studs, which rip the blacktop right off our already horrible roads. Ottawa is a world centre of pot-hole excellence; you have to see them to believe them. As many have pointed out, if the weather is so severe that you can't count on travelling safely in a properly maintained car with decent snow tires, you should stay home. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: gnu Date: 30 Jan 10 - 11:01 AM I just about had to grab Mum and haul her out of the way in a parking lot an hour ago. A woman with rear wheel drive didn' know enough to drive around the piled up snow drift (a bus had just done it) and then tried to get through it my gunning the engine. Of course, she slewed the arse end out and came close to pinning Mum and I to another vehicle. As said above, knowledge is paramount. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: 3refs Date: 30 Jan 10 - 11:16 AM I got a Mossberg 500A 12 gage pump. The freakin thing is 50" long, so I'm calling it "The 88", after the 88mm field artillery gun the Germans strapped on a tank during WW2. The other is, another story. When I first looked at it, the first thing I said to the gunsmith was "that's gotta be illegal! So, he explained why it wasn't and then I bought it. It's a Stoeger .410 single shot with and 11" barrel. I get the same response from all those who've seen it, "what ta *&$@ is that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 30 Jan 10 - 11:35 AM That Stoeger ..... nn 11" barrel ?!?!? Is it a nickel or a black finish? biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: EBarnacle Date: 30 Jan 10 - 01:10 PM Guest As the Marx brothers said "There is no sanity clause." Anywhere that you get rain, get tires with siping. The purpose is to get water out of the tread's contact patch to improve your traction. This is an all year issue. Even a little rain on a surface at the beginning of a wet event can cause slick spots. These encourage skids. It's cheaper to go through tires a little faster so you can avoid damage a lot longer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: gnu Date: 30 Jan 10 - 02:35 PM 3... 11" barrel not illegal in Canucistan? Perhaps with a restricted PAL? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: JohnInKansas Date: 30 Jan 10 - 07:19 PM There is a rather vague "exception" in US Federal regulations. A shotgun with a barrel less than 18(?) inches is generally illegal. A gun that has rifling in the bore (which can include a "shotgun" intended only to shoot slugs, in some cases) may be a "pistol" rather than a shotgun (sort of) so it may be legal. At least that seems to be the argument being used by one fairly well-known US manufacturer. So far as I've seen, they're using this "out" only for .410 bore guns. It's possible there could be some other reason why a particular gun might qualify for exclusion from the more general usual limitations. But how does this pertain to snow tires? It would seem rear traction was inadiquate and a driver has gone off to the next road? John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Janie Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:50 PM Just back from driving several hours on ice and snow in the Subaru (with all-weather radials.) I am impressed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: gnu Date: 30 Jan 10 - 09:00 PM John... here, less than 18" here is a restricted weapon and requires the proper permit. As such, it may only be used at a certified range, at certain time(s), and the route of travel from residence to the range must be certain and only at the certain time(s). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Ed T Date: 30 Jan 10 - 09:44 PM I got my low mileage '98 Subaru Legacy last year, from a neighbour, as a winter car. Last year it was amazing in snow, (though there has not been enough snow this year to give it a good test, especially with new snow tires, and rims I got on Kijiji). I drive snows on all three cars in our family (others are Acura and Toyota) and have an extra set of rims, with summers for each car. I am set up to change all three over in the driveway each year. Saves the extra service station costs and hastles, and is easier on the tires. BTW, I have been told the 99, 2.2 Subaru is the best of the lot, and really easy on gas. The earlier 2.5's are prone to head gasket failure...but even still, are better than the average car. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Janie Date: 31 Jan 10 - 06:59 AM Ed. Yep. My Subaru is a '97 Legacy OB. Bought with 96,000 miles. Headgasket blew over Christmas at 134,000 miles. I was wrong about it having all-weather tires. They are mud & snow. (Bought it from a kid who had just spent 4 years at school in New Hampshire.) When they need replaced, however, I'll probably go with all-weather. My two previous cars, inherited consecutively from Ma & Pa were a Taurus and a Sable. I was satisfied with the way they handled snow and ice, but the Subaru, with it's awd, was noticably better. No fishtailing going up icy hills, and just a very little bit when making turns across deeper snow piled up at intersections by the snow plows. I also liked having 3 lower drives to downshift through to stay off the brakes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: EBarnacle Date: 31 Jan 10 - 01:52 PM There are times you need to play games, no matter what. During the New Jersey Monte Carlo Rallye [early '70s, not sure of the date] Front Wheel Drive vehicles had to back up a steep, icy hill [in the middle of an ice storm] to get over it as the hill was so steep that the weight on the front wheels did not have enough weight on them. Rear wheel drive vehicles had to have several people sitting in the trunk to make it up. There were no 4WD or AWD vehicles in the rallye that year. I do remember a Volvo sports coupe with the wagon body, borrowed off the showroom floor doing exciting things that night. The dealership was not happy with what they got back. I used to participate in the NEIRA ice races in Maine during the 70's. Since my race car was my road and rallye car [a '65 SAAB Monte Carlo which I converted to a breathed upon 1.5 litre V-4] I quit the sport when they made studs legal. With no studs, when two cars touched, they bounced with no major damage. With studs, it got expensive quickly. Top speeds were about the same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: 3refs Date: 31 Jan 10 - 05:12 PM gnu and 6 The barrel is gun blue! Provided the firearm was manufactored that way and the overall length is 26", the little sucker is legal! #4 buck just makes a mess of things! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Ed T Date: 31 Jan 10 - 08:39 PM Caught in a tight spot with your car? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QksqWRqEfy0&feature=player_embedded |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 31 Jan 10 - 10:38 PM Thanks ED T ..... really enjoyed that ! biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Bonzo3legs Date: 01 Feb 10 - 04:38 PM Ah, tyres are what you're on about, very good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: kendall Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:21 PM Seems to me it would have been just as easy for him to get out the back. It looks like a hatch back to me. Was he speaking Danish? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: EBarnacle Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:24 PM Looked like Danish in the captioning. Of course, getting out the hatch is not as classy as simply waling through the door. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: EBarnacle Date: 02 Feb 10 - 11:20 PM Y'lnow, the most important thing we did not mention about driving in slippery conditions is preparedness. There is nothing stopping anyone from going out to a local parking lot and practicing skids and rescues in nasty conditions. Tonight I had the pleasure of driving home in fresh snow. Those around me moved fairly well. No one was braking, just slowing down with engine braking. Same thing when it came to ramps, just taking it easily and safely. The roads were not yet cleared and were probably slippery but no one was by the side of the road. Safe driving means driving to allow for conditions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Snow Tires From: Nigel Parsons Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:00 PM I got halfway through this discussion before remembering that American 'Pavements' are UK Roads. Our pavements are your sidewalks! I wondered why some people were finding it easier to drive on the pavements! Cheers Nigel |
