Folk Against Fascism

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:04 AM

Personally, I don't think anyone should book anyhting except really good music.

Take this lot - they make really good music:

Dogan and the Deerhunters

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:15 AM

I don't think Greg is asking us to book acts just to cock a snook.
-David el Gnomo


"Cock a snook?"

Does that mean what I think it means?



Never mind. I don't really need to know.


But on second thought...??

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:43 AM

Azizi

To cock a snook means to show derision. Origin debatable!

Regards

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:44 AM

plenty of people are joining, there were 6 members when i joined, now theres over 1000!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:48 AM

On a serious note, it occurs to me that it's usually acceptable for people who know each other well to engage in light hearted play on words about the other person's non-standard name and other cultural things (such as some posts on this thread that Bruce [Peace] and David el Gnomo 's wrote that refer to George [Yorgos Papavgeris]'s name.*

But that same play on words would likely not be acceptable among people who don't know each other well.

I mention this because I think that one of the goals of the Folk Against Fascism website, Facebook page, and MySpace page would be to foster greater understanding among people of different backgrounds. Which doesn't mean that I think there should be a "social etiquette among people of different backgrounds" page. But some features that help populations of people know each other better may do a lot to reduce the pull of fascism.

* I mentioned Bruce's name "Peace" because people who might visit this thread from Internet search engines might not know who the heck "Bruce" is. And I'm presuming that George didn't take any offense to Bruce's and Dave's remarks because I (kinda) know them through their postings on Mudcat. t also seems to me that George's 10 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM shows that he accepted these play on words about his name in the spirit that they were given. However, the point I'm trying to make is that people who don't know each other can take offense and be offensive when joking about different personal names and about words from other languages.

Also I want to say that I think that Bruce's 11 Jun 09 - 12:13 AM comment and David el Gnomo 's 10 Jun 09 - 07:00 PM and any comment about George's name and the Greek word for "Peace" (Irene) were probably posted to add some lightheartedness to a very serious thread as was the intent of my 11 Jun 09 - 04:15 AM post).

I think these serious, emotionally gut wrenching discussions need a careful, sensitive light touch some times- or speaking for myself-I know that I need a careful, light touch sometime when I read these "heavy duty" threads. (Why did that phrasing about careful, sensitive touch cause my mind to go someplace else? Never mind that.)

:o)

Moving right along, thanks Bruce, and George, and Dave and any other play on word-er that i failed to mention.

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:51 AM

Thanks, MartinRyan.

That meaning of "To cock a snook" is somewhat disappointing. But it is what it is.

;o)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:17 AM

I have a particular fondness

Particuular, not exclusive. My own repertoire includes Irish, Scottish, French, Scandinavian and Italian tunes; because I like them.

This is an aesthetic/artistic statement, not a political one.

OK?

Thanks for the link Ruth. Dogan has played at the club several times in Too Many Strings and as a duo with Matt Quinn. He is on record as saying something like "I think British traditional music is wonderful and I want everybody to know about it. If it takes a Turk to tell them, so be it."

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:22 AM

The issues ultimately raised by this thread are going to be numerous, but in forging any approaches to begin to attempt to counter what has been ocurring regards the appropriation of British folk music and customs, I think it might be worthwhile determining what attracts groups like the BNP to British Folk. Some of these issues have come up on other threads, and it might be worthwhile taking a fresh more integrated look at some of those issues, in relation to this thread?

For example: One thing that strikes me from memory, was a story (I can't recall the poster) discussing a bunch of skinheads at a folk gathering rather enthusiastically singing songs containing the 'N' word.

Another thing that strikes me, is the possible parallels with Nazi appropriation of German folk music. One wonders to what extent current BNP tactics are knowingly echoing the Nazi example? Or is this simply another example of universal Nationalist political tactics?

And a further thing which immediately comes to mind, is of course the somewhat exclusively middle-England nature of attendees of folk clubs. Not a criticism of the British folk scene, merely a reference to prior discussions.

I'm sure there are other things which make British folk highly attractive as a tool for nationalist and fascist propaganda, I just wanted to throw open discussion about what they might be?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:34 AM

I think the main thing is that they're national.


But it's interesting that whereas the National Front, as thugs and bully boys, targeted the national game (so much so that football has still not overcome the racist taint of 20-30 years ago) the new-look BNP, with their softly-softly approach, are targeting something that is much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture.

It's all about appropriating these things seen as primarily English, and making them a part of their very narrow and exclusive definition of identity.

I would hate to think of folk culture, 30 years from now, suffering under the taint of racism in the way that football still does, because we weren't vigilant enough until it was too late.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:38 AM

Before anyone has the eggs at the ready, I should probably qualify one of my statements above:

"targeting something that is much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture."

should read

"targeting something that is PERCEIVED as much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture."

Referring to morris, maypole, village greens etc.

And this is all about the perceptions of the wider public, not what we as folkies may or may not feel is true.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:40 AM

Maybe it should have been called Folk Against Racism, but that sounds like a schism with Rock Against Racism which would have been silly. The logo they've got based on Woody's guitar ties in very nicely. I don't think it helps to nitpick about definitions.

About Facebook v. MySpace. MySpace is a terrific marketing tool, a free place for putting music and biogs etc into the public realm, the floor spots of the web. Facebook is much more used for social networking, and there are lots more people who don't have music to promote than do so naturally it will have more users.

Re discussion above about English music, I think it's summed up quite nicely by a quote on the FAF Wall which says "Remember the next time you go and dance to a polka played on a melodeon and hammered dulcimer that NONE of those things came from 'here' originally, they've just been naturalised a bit longer than most . ."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:59 AM

"Before anyone has the eggs at the ready, I should probably qualify one of my statements above: "

Phew, you had me reaching for the nearest chicken, there. LOL!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:03 AM

"But it's interesting that whereas the National Front, as thugs and bully boys, targeted the national game (so much so that football has still not overcome the racist taint of 20-30 years ago) the new-look BNP, with their softly-softly approach, are targeting something that is much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture."

Interesting point.

Haven't yet decided whether this fact shows that they have been unsuccesful in the country's football gorunds so they are trying elsewhere, in which case it is an indicator that we should feel reassured by it, or whether it suggests genuine infiltration into the middle classes.

Lets remember that the number of BNP voters did not increase, so perhaps we can deduce that the footbal stadium campaign has been unsuccesful.

Alternatively, now that football stadia have become the preserve of the middle classes and the real fans watch their games in pubs cos they can't afford tickets, maybe the campaign has followed them into the pubs - and is just giving itself a soundtrack and inventing an new found identity with a new found air of respectability ...

... Great to see that when it matters, the overwhelming majority of Brits are disgusted at the idea of Griffin in office.

He won't last more than 1 term.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:06 AM

"Another thing that strikes me, is the possible parallels with Nazi appropriation of German folk music. One wonders to what extent current BNP tactics are knowingly echoing the Nazi example? Or is this simply another example of universal Nationalist political tactics?"

I find the BNP fascination with 'British culture' alarming because they are echoing nazi ideology in a way that even the National Front never did. The nazis believed that national culture was a product of genetic determination, and it was for this reason that they embraced German folklore. to them, it was pure and it was Aryan and, once cleansed of degenerate influences, it was both symbol and affirmation of Aryan superiority. The product of the master race, no less.

I think the BNP's assertion of British folklore (and various other symbols of 'Britishness') shows that they are thinking along similar lines. I think they are proposing a Britain purged of all alien influences. I think they are planning a programme of ethnic cleansing, the intensity of which has not been seen since the days of the holocaust.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:14 AM

Expanding this list outside of Britain, Folk singers sang songs during the civil rights movement in the USA.

It might be a good idea to include such a listing on the FaceBook/MySpace pages or at least on the upcoming Folk Against Fascism website.

What else can be added to this list?

Mikis Theodorakis (and a lot of other Greek musicians) opposing the Greek colonels

Victor Jara, Inti-Illimani and a whole bunch of other Chilean musicians opposing Pinochet

Zulfu Livaneli, Selda Bagcan, Melike Demirag and a whole bunch of other Turkish folkies opposing fascism around the time of the 1980 coup

You'd be hard put to find a country with a significant fascist movement that didn't have folk musicians in the front line fighting it.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:22 AM

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious - PM
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:40 AM

Maybe it should have been called Folk Against Racism, but that sounds like a schism with Rock Against Racism which would have been silly. The logo they've got based on Woody's guitar ties in very nicely. I don't think it helps to nitpick about definitions.

About Facebook v. MySpace. MySpace is a terrific marketing tool, a free place for putting music and biogs etc into the public realm, the floor spots of the web. Facebook is much more used for social networking, and there are lots more people who don't have music to promote than do so naturally it will have more users.

Re discussion above about English music, I think it's summed up quite nicely by a quote on the FAF Wall which says "Remember the next time you go and dance to a polka played on a melodeon and hammered dulcimer that NONE of those things came from 'here' originally, they've just been naturalised a bit longer than most . ."
I agree with this sentiment,however it is not accurate,the English concertina is English,The Hornpipe,Reel and Jig,are generally considered to be from these islands[scotland ,england ireland wales]polkas originated in middle europe[butIrish polkas have evolved to something different.]
yes ,correct about Polkas and mazurkas,but not other dances.
still the most important thing is not to be concerned about origins ,but to enjoy the dancing.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:56 AM

I just looked at Anahata's site, that link page is just right.

I'd add something very similar to mine, but a question. My involvement is mostly with Scottish music, and I haven't seen any sign of the BNP trying to exploit that. (Near-fascist Scottish organizations like Siol nan Gaidheal have been trying for years and got nowhere in particular - but the BNP would have to take them on before trying to move in on the Scottish folk scene). Anyone know what they're doing up here?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:36 AM

>i>I think it might be worthwhile determining what attracts groups like the BNP to British Folk. Some of these issues have come up on other threads, and it might be worthwhile taking a fresh more integrated look at some of those issues, in relation to this thread?
-Crow Sister, 11 Jun 09 - 05:22 AM

I find your comments to be very interesting, Crow Sister and believe that it is important to know what attracts the BNP to folk. And it seems to me that a corollary question is "Should every thing that is considered to be traditional British culture or which has been grafted onto traditional British culture be supported and efforts made to retain those things? I'm specifically talking about the songs with the "N" word (which certainly wouldn't be publicly sung nowadays in my country, the USA)? But I'm certain that there are other perhaps more controversial customs that could (should?) also be considered in that category of indices of traditional British culture that could be reviewed in this regard.

**

I aslo find romany man's 10 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM entire post interesting. But in particular I'd like to to focus on this point he raised "what next folk against commies, or against rock and roll , im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is against fascism..."

(I'm wondering if he meant) "im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is against fascism)

But the point that I want to make is that it seems to me that Folk Against Fascism should be clear on and should clearly articulate what it (we) are in favor of. I think our efforts would be weakened if we are only seen as being against something-and that "something" is a political system that a lot of "folks" (with "folk" here meaning people) can't easily define. Furthermore, it seems to me that we are missing a wider audience and membership/supporters if the "folk" in "Folk Against Fascism" is only narrowly defined as "folk musicians and folk vocalists and folk dancers (such as morris dancers)".

To echo what Peace said in one of his posts to this thread, I'm not folk musicians and folk vocalists and folk dancers (such as morris dancers). But I am a folk (a person). I understand that FaF focuses on Britain and the British hate group, the BNP. But I'd like to think that people from outside of Britain with our "own" hate groups and hate crimes have some role in the FaF-and maybe we are sometimes the gadfly that pushes you to widen your focus and consider the wider world of racism/hate/fascism.

I guess I should have said that "maybe my role is a gadfly". But gadflies can be lovable sometime.

:o)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:38 AM

Ruth/lox,
It is quite true that in the seventies the NF sought to recruit members from football supporters since "they would welcome robust young men into their ranks". However it must be stressed that over the ensuing years the football clubs themselves have worked very hard to combat the stigma, especially the violence and racism, which attached its self to the game.Most clubs that I know of have a definite policy against racisim(Kick Out Racism) and any form of racist chanting is punishable by expulsion from the ground and membership revoked. A lot of clubs openly declare this on their tickets.
"Alternatively, now that football stadia have become the preserve of the middle classes and the real fans watch their games in pubs cos they can't afford tickets". I saw my team, Nottingham Forest, on television twice last season so I would suggest that since football is not the sole property of the big four Premiership sides that the real fans still go to the grounds (and if being middle class means being continually on the bones of ones arse then that must be my status; I'll remember that when I clock in at the factory in the morning)
It was very encouraging to see the anti - BNP leaflets being haded out at our last home match v Southampton.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:14 AM

Haven't yet decided whether this fact shows that they have been unsuccesful in the country's football gorunds so they are trying elsewhere, in which case it is an indicator that we should feel reassured by it, or whether it suggests genuine infiltration into the middle classes.

As a season ticket holder at Sheffield's finest football club (I refer to United of course) I am very aware of the efforts my club has made to discourage racism (especially chanting) and it is now totally unaceptable at Bramall Lane to make references to the colour of a player's skin.

So we don't hear it. This didn't arise by accident but by extremely hard work by FURD (Football Unites, Racism Divides). http://www.furd.org/ will show you some of their work.

It has been a very successful organisation.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:26 AM

Azizi:
Yes, of course we're all against fascism, but the reason why the folk music community in particular is upset is because the BNP have been exploiting British Folk music (in particular its "Britishness") as an emblem of nationalism and selling compilations of their recordings to raise funds. Now folk musicians and singers are in danger of being tarred with the same racist brush, so it is very much a fight "against" the BNP because we are under attack. Imagine if you were a singer (maybe you are) and you found your music was being sold to raise funds for a racist organisation...

As for "Folk against Fascism" vs. "Folk Against Racism", it's a more alliterative and hence memorable name, and it is relevant to the BNP. For me it's also a plus point that it potentially covers some of the invasions of personal privacy and freedom perpetrated by the existing government, with its talk of ID cards and having all our internet activity monitored.

Perhaps we could have called it "folk for freedom" but I don't think anyone would take any notice if we did...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:30 AM

The whole Kick Racism Out (of football) has been succesful in league football. I can confirm that racist chants etc are also now never heard at Sincil Bank (Lincoln City).

I haven't been to an England game for more than 10 years but the last one I was at was scary. Lots of anti-Irish chants.

At Lincoln, the 3 of us who turn up are now impeccably behaved. (I always was, it was the other 2). Thought I better make this joke before someone else did.



I think the issues were different for football in that it was kicking out people/ behaviours who had already infiltrated the game...... I don't perceive that the BNP has a strong grip of Folk Music yet. It's therefore looking at how to prevent it (or at least put out the ember before the fire catches) rather than kick it out.

Might be something we can learn from the football experience though.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:51 AM

Fascism ,is[imo] easily defined,it involves IN PRACTICAL TERMS [as it has been practised,by Mussolini and Hitler] the persecution of people because of their race colour and creed,so one of its principles as it has been practised is racism.
yes ,this includes Mussolini.
Mussolini in his earlier years appeared not be anti semitic,but in his later years changed his policy,and for whatever reasons used racism to maintain himself in power.
however, Folk against Racism,might have been a better title,just in case some pedant,comes along and argues that Franco[Fascist]or Duffy[Blueshirt] was not racist.
However the situation is further complicated,Franco was supported by other fascist /nazis states.,as he accepted their support,does it not follow that he accepted their racist attitudes?
anyway well done,to all the people who have helped set up folk against fascism.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:52 AM

Correction-
In my 11 Jun 09 - 07:36 AM post I wondered if romany man meant " "im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is not against fascism".

**

Also, I wasn't suggesting that the "Folk Against Fascism" name be "Folk Against Racism". My point was (is) that the group should be clear what we are for. I would assume that some things are core, but that every FaF friend (member) may not agree with other things that are part of British traditional folk culture that other friends (members) list that they are in favor of.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:14 AM

Remember the next time you go and dance to a polka played on a melodeon and hammered dulcimer that NONE of those things came from 'here' originally

was answered by

the English concertina is English,The Hornpipe,Reel and Jig,are generally considered to be from these islands

Well yes, but that's a complete non sequitur! Your point is?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM

"fascism" is now little more than a generalised term of abuse. It's original sense was essentially right-wing, ultra-nationalist, corporatist, authoritarian governance. Unsurprisingly, racism was often part of the package, in practice. (It's not stretching things too much to regard Franco's attitude to the Catalans as essentially racist, BTW). On the other hand, authoritarian left-wing states are just as capable of being racist (complete your own list...). So let's not confuse the two.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM

For myself, I think the term is appropriate, as the issues implied go beyond racism alone.

And this from Wiki makes the direct relationship between the BNP & fascism more clear: "The current use of the name British National Party is its fourth appearance in British politics. The original BNP emerged during World War II when a handful of former members of the British Union of Fascists took on the name."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:44 AM

my point is:that most ,countrydances/ceilidhs that people dance to in England ,contain all these dances and some of them are from the England Ireland Scotland Wales .
secondly,that the origins of the dances should not be important when dancing,people, should be dancing for pleasure.
that is why I dont care a toss, when I am dancing a polka [that it comes from middle europe].
but of course it might concern BNP MEMBERS ,presumably they think its ok to dance hornpipes but not polkas,how ridiculous.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

In a Venn Diagram, Fascism and racism can intersect but not always.

Any authoritarian governance is probably associated with some form of racism.
It doesn't matter what you label it.

As I understand the BNP, it is an authoritarian "my way or the highway" group and
must as a result maintain a certain prejudice and xenophobia.

Fascism is alive and well here in the US. It is not a stated official policy of the government but corporate takeover of our political system is evident. For this reason, ample criticism
has to be expressed by Americans who take our Bill of Rights and Constitution seriously.
We have to deplore any group that favors a fascistic point of view including the BNP.
They should not be morally defended in any way.

Free speech is their right as long as it doesn't cross the line. My experience with fascistic right-wing groups is that they invariably cross the line into violence. At this point as far as I'm concerned, this abrogates their right to free speech.

Frank

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:28 AM

If you want to see what a British fascist looked like go to "google images" and type in the name of the founding leader of the British National Party,John Tyndall. You can see him there dressed in full nazi uniform posing in front of a swastika flag while a photograph of Adolph Hitler looks down from above.

His successor ,Nick Griffin,can also be seen on google images.He is there in front of a National Front banner wearing his white power Tshirt.He looks more porky these days.

When a BNP electioneering squad were out in force in my home town a few weeks ago they were all dressed up in their shiny suits.They really didn't like it when photocopies of Tyndall in his nazi getup were produced. After being " megaphoned " for an hour by anti fascists they obviously sent for reinforcements because a group of boneheads came waddling down the street.One was covered in enormous swastika tattoos   including one on top of his shaven head. Scary! He was obviously not used in any of the BNP publicity material.

Its not easy but they do have to confronted about their nazi past and their nazi present.
ifor

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

Been thinking about this.....

""given some of the people already supporting this, we're not talking pie-in-the-sky - something exciting is going to happen"

I'll wait and see how far some people are willing to go with this issue.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:46 AM

I have always considered myself "non political" I don't "do" politics, but by God I care about my fellow man. The whole idea of the BNP appalls me and in fact scares me. I particularly dislike the idea of appropriating the music I love and have worked hard for all my adult life. This is why I joined FAF, triggered by the wayward thinking of a previous friend.
I hope we get a coherent mission statement organised for the website. Fo my pen'orth it's deeper than Racism and probably deeper than the BNP although they must be the main target for the immediate future.
Good luck to FAF and all who Faff around within.

Andy

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:56 AM

Speaking of crossing the line into violence, a long-time racist anti-semite attacked the National Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. yesterday killing a security guard before being shot himself. Security guards at that museum are trained to be always on high alert because it is one of the most threatened institutions in America, a sad fact indeed. Otherwise he would have killed many more innocents. The MSNBC story reports that this man was a frequent attendee of American Friends of the British National Party rallies.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:16 PM

"I'll wait and see how far some people are willing to go with this issue. "

Wait before you do what? Support it? Oppose it? Sitting on the fence can be a pain in the arse :)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:32 PM

"Wait before you do what? Support it? Oppose it? Sitting on the fence can be a pain in the arse"

that's the wonderful thing about democracy, you do what you want

Some people are more a pain in the arse than sitting on the fence is.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:37 PM

Rifleman, is there anything in particular, which makes you feel that you wish to stand back? I think like me, TheLeveller simply found your statement confusing. I didn't understand whatever point it was that you were making, or what exactly you'd been thinking about.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Anne Lister
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 03:59 PM

Catching up, belatedly as ever ...I don't see any kind of "either/or" about people and their preferences for music from different cultures and their own. However, as this thread is concerned with the attack on "British" folk music (perhaps this should be "English") via the attentions of the BNP, and as English folk music and dance have been under various forms of attack by the media over more years than I want to think about (mostly humour, mostly harmless, admittedly, but not helpful), and as it is often more difficult to attract grant funding for projects to do with English folk culture than for music and dance from other cultural backgrounds ... in short, as in this context English folk music is very much the minority interest and one of the few places it happens is in folk clubs my point was that I don't want accusations of nationalism, fascism, jingoism and racism to attach to folk clubs that don't book other varieties of world music as a result of their booking policy.

The cultural diversity question, applied to modern Britain, is indeed complex and full of contradictory potholes, to mix my metaphors and images. All I'm saying is that everyone is entitled to be proud of their own heritage, and that includes English folk enthusiasts and performers. No "either/or" involved. And when it comes to the old chestnut about how we're all essentially mixed ethnicities anyway over here - actually, not necessarily. In my family history the biggest mix was between Yorkshire and Oxfordshire, with a sprinkling of Devon, back at least as far as 1700. And most of them, I'm very proud to say, agricultural labourers or aspiring white collar workers rather than titled aristocrats.

And none of this makes me a white supremacist, a racist or a follower of the BNP. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, but I do insist that my cultural heritage is equal to anyone else's. I am rather tired of feeling apologetic about being English - and unable to make a statement about this without appearing to be a moronic nationalist.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:10 PM

"Some people are more a pain in the arse than sitting on the fence is."

Well, that's something we agree on.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:29 PM

"Rifleman, is there anything in particular, which makes you feel that you wish to stand back?"

"Some people are more a pain in the arse than sitting on the fence is."
I'm niot actually sitting on the fence, but I do believe I'll do things my way in my time.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:45 PM

Anne:

ENGLAND, HALF-ENGLISH

Words & Music : Billy Bragg

My mother was half-English
And I'm half-English too
I'm a great big bundle of culture
Tied up in the red, white and blue
I'm a fine example of your Essex Man
And I'm well familiar with the Hindustan
'Cos my neighbours are half-English
And I'm half-English too

My breakfast was half-English
And so am I you know
I had a plate of Marmite soldiers
Washed down with a cappuccino
And I have a veggie curry about once a week
The next day I fry it up as 'Bubble 'N' Squeak'
'Cos my appetite's half-English
And I'm half-English too

Dance with me
To this very English melody
From Morris dancing to Morrissey
All that stuff came from across the sea

Britannia, she's half-English
She speaks Latin at home
St. George was born in the Lebanon
How he got here I don't know
And those three lions on your shirt
They never sprang from England's dirt
Them lion's are half-English
And I'm half-English too

Le-li Umma le-li-ya
le-li Umma le-li-ya
Le-li Umma le-li-ya
bledi g'desh akh! le-li-ya

Oh my country
Oh my country
Oh my country
What a beautiful country you are

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM

Folk = Volk = people = ALL people regardless of whether we are "folk musicians" or what evers. "Folk" does not either denote nor connote someone wrapped up in the "folk scene." The music of the folk (people) of any part of the world has always included protest music, music telling about life as it is/was. Was that not the original purpose? Wandering minstrels carrying the news from hamlet to hamlet? And now - the internet carries the message around the world in seconds!!

I see the Brits, or is it just the English, sticking closely to only music/dance that is "traditional". I see the US and Canadian folk sorts, festivals, what have you, sticking to "trad" music and contemporary "folk" and if any dancing at all - square, contra, or Morris.

Would it be too broadening for the dance of the folk of other lands to be included? I love our folk music and musicians, prefer the more contemporary to the hard-core trad. But I live to dance and my preferred dance is the dances of the people - international folk dance - Greek, Serbian, etc. I feel in touch with those who have danced these for hundreds of years, with their music and their spirit.

Perhaps broadening our own horizons would help us, and others, to broaden theirs? Lest our world be defined by the perimeter of our halo? (No offense meant to anyone.)

In any case, it is good to see folks standing up to be counted. Let us not sit down until we have rocked the boat.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:26 PM

a very good post from Ann Lister.
it is important that we do not allow english folk music to be hijacked by the BNP.
In my opinion the answer is for folk club organisers to carry on with exactly the booking policies,that they feel is right for their club.
some folk clubs promote English traditional music,some folkclubs promote contemporary songwriters ,some clubs promote both,some clubs promote blues.,long may that continue.
English,Scottish , Welsh, Irish folk music needs to be promoted.,as does other national folk music.
if a promoter wishes to run a club that is exclusively folk or roots music from another country,that is good.
or if he /she wishes to start integrating folk music from other areas in to the musical programme,that is his/her choice.,the organiser is taking a gamble,and might be well advised to introduce,these changes gradually,or to seek the opinions of club regulars first,alternatively there might be a lot of new faces,who wish to hear a more international flavour of music.
If he/ she does not want to do this it does not make the organiser a racist.,any more than would be the case,if it was an Indian person running an exclusively Indian folk music club in England ,India or anywhere else.
But The reason for running a Folk/Roots club,should be,because the organiser enjoys the music and wishes to promote it.
imo ,it seems incorrect for organisers to suddenly change their booking policies because of a fear that English folk music is being hijacked by the BNP,or because they think it might be a useful way of countering the BNP.
the best way[imo] to counter the BNP is to defeat their arguments intellectually ,MBS GEORGE has not yet replied to the many posts,which might suggest that she knows that her points of view would be made to look exactly what they are,intellectually bankrupt.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:35 PM

A guy on Question time (BBC1 UK) just now admitted to voting BNP. When questioned why he replied from a written list with all the usual BNP lines. When pushed he had to admit it was to "put two fingers up to the three main parties".

I do believe that is why they got in, thankfully not because people believe in their aims. This is not a call to apathy but rather the reverse, we should be engaging the BNP voters in proper dialogue and expose the truth of the BNP.

FAF Andy

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:40 PM

I am slow on the uptake about political issues at times as can be demonstrated in various threads on the 'cat but I do eventualy cotton on:-)

The more I think about this issue the more important I realise it is. If we let the BNP have their way we will loose a lot of what we take for granted. Imagine for one minute that we allow them to use Folk music and ritual dance in the way they want we will get the situation that the Folk club and Morris team will move from the slightly comedic butt of media jokes to an art form associated with this hateful organisation. Anyone involved will become tarred with the same brush and I, for one, will not sit back and let that happen.

I urge anyone and everyone involved in traditional English music and dance to ensure that we fight the incidious invasion of our culture. If that means actively going onto the streets and making sure that everyone, from all cultures represented in the UK, are not only welcome in but can make a real difference to our traditions then that is what we should be doing.

I'm on a mission...

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:51 PM

I cross posted with Dick -

some folk clubs promote English traditional music

Yes, we do indeed. But maybe we should be widening the definition of traditional English music? England has been multi-national for hundreds of years and the traditions that immigrants brought with them are now as much a part of traditional English life as Morris dance! Like I said earlier, Chicken Tikka Masalla and Balti are now part of traditional English food. Surely we can do the same with music.

Pop music has lots of examples of being influenced by music from, for instance, the Beatles' Maharisi Yogi days to Sting's Arabian themed Desert Rain. There must be plenty of folk musicians out there doing the same.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:35 PM

I for one don't intend to be swayed by the BNP to change my preference for Britsh music. Luckily I think we have already established that that does not make me a racist.

FAF Andy

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:42 PM

Thanks to Anne Lister and Captain Birdseye. Spot on. Saved me a lot of typing.

There are a wide variety of folk clubs and folk dance organisations. We don't all have to do it all.

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:12 PM

"I do believe that is why they got in, thankfully not because people believe in their aims." (Miskin Man)

On BBC TV tonight I think it was Dianne Abbot MP who said the BNP got in through large numbers of working class voters being disillusioned with New Labour (where the New Labour's former middle class voters have gone to the Greens).

As Miskin Man mentions, it's not generally that these working class voters are racist. Quite apart from the "two fingers to the three main parties" factor, it is that New Labour has left a vacuum in areas of huge working class concerns such as privatisation, feeding the Bankers instead of saving manufacturing jobs - things that Old (Peoples') Labour would have (one would hope) adressed.

Where the Red and Green Left hasn't beeen active, thousands are only hearing one party saying what they want to hear on those traditional Labour issues.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:22 PM

IAN, you are quite right when you say there is a gap in the market, so to speak, that is just what they want the brits to think . that the BNP are for the ordiary people, if i didn't know them better i might have been persuaded, i know the truth about them and MOST of their policies still SOUND good, it is no wonder then that the less inclined are completely taken in.

as for what folk clubs should do about this.....abSOLUTELY NOTHING.. keep doing what you are doing, you know what your' punters like and when they want something abit different,becuase they tell you and discuss it.
we should not let the threat of the BNP change how and why we do the things we love.

take care all

i can't wait to get my FaF t shirt and wear it with pride x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:54 PM

DeG: "Pop music has lots of examples of being influenced by music from, for instance, the Beatles' Maharisi Yogi days to Sting's Arabian themed Desert Rain. There must be plenty of folk musicians out there doing the same."

OF course. And has been for centuries. The flamenco evolved from the whirling dervish. I see the steps of all contemporary dances in ancient folk dances. Musicians are certainly affected by the music around them. Just a different sort of evolution. To be aware is to begin to understand our connectedness. We do not need to lose by it. We gain with awareness and still can maintain the integrity of the traditional - all the better by our awareness. Look at very old trad music and see if there is not an influence from the Crusades in there at times???

The fascists cannot take anything from us unless we allow it, give up our power, fail in our vigilance.