Folk Against Fascism

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:05 AM

I am reposting this comment from a current thread here because I believe it is pertinent this discussion:

Subject: RE: 11 Hausa songs banned in Kano, Nigeria
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:01 AM

If you do not care for the loss of freedom that other creative people are experiences, you should at least realize that you are laughing and sneering at information such at this at your on peril. What is occurring in this Islamic province of the multi-religious nation of Nigeria, is a sign of what could occur in other nations if people are not pro-active and vigilant. For instance, were a fascist government headed by the BNP ever to achieve real power in Britain or other parts of the United Kingdom, they would target song composers, musicians, film makers, vocalists, actors and other creative people just as is now occurring in that one particular area of Nigeria.

This excerpt of that 2008 "Nigerian Writers, Film-makers Defy Censors"
article that Guest Felipa alerted us to should serve as a warning of things to come:

"Kano State government officials have burned books they say promote immorality...

The imprisonment clause has been put into effect several times. Besides Adam Zango, who was imprisoned in September 2007, pioneering Hausa director and former Kano State gubernatorial candidate Hamisu Lamido Iyan Tama was jailed after copies of his film Tsintsiya were impounded from a video shop in Kano in May 2008. He was accused of not registering his company Iyan Tama Multimedia with the censorship board.

(A court case reveals that the company had, in fact, registered and paid the required fees.) Ironically, the director was arrested the day of his return from the Zuma Film Festival in Abuja where Tsintsiya had won an award for Best Film on Social Issue.

The new censorship regime has had the effect of suppressing Hausa filmmaking in Kano, Northern Nigeria's largest city. The exact size of the industry is hard to determine, but a 2002 study by the national censors board counted 133 Hausa films produced between January and August of that year, making the Hausa film industry second in size only to Yoruba.

Although filmmakers are still doing post-production in Kano, locations have been moved to neighboring states, the majority now being shot in neighbouring Kaduna State. Filmmakers bypass the Kano State Censors Board by marking "Not for sale in Kano" on their films and selling them in other states.

Following the exodus of the Hausa film-making scene from Kano State, Malam Rabo, the director general of the censors board, turned his attention to the writers in the state...

The suppression of creativity in Nigeria is hardly a new phenomenon. Writers have been imprisoned and even executed like novelist and activist Ken Saro-Wiwa. However, the popular imagination combined with the subversive possibilities of such new technologies point to the impossibility of the task undertaken by the Censorship Board.

Filmmakers travel out of state to film and bring the digital tapes back in to edit, taking them back out of state to market. Writers, kept from publishing articles in local newspapers, repeat sentiments on blogs and pass digital photos of correspondence with the censors via email listserves.

Bus drivers plaster the windows of their ramshackle vehicles with stickers of "porn-star" Hiyana. Young people cite watching movies as inspiration for using their phones to record conversations with corrupt lecturers and authority figures who they then expose as hypocrites.

In the Clarendon lectures given at Oxford University in 1996, formerly imprisoned Kenyan novelist Ngugi wa Thiong'o theorised that whereas the state seeks to silence alternate stories, "art tries to restore voices to the land. It tries to give voice back to the silenced". In Northern Nigeria , despite state-sponsored bans, book burnings, and imprisonments, it is becoming difficult to silence those voices in the first place."

http://ipsnews.net/africa/nota.asp?idnews=43857


-snip-

We Mudcatters should be standing in solidarity with the creative people in that Northern province of Nigeria instead of making stupid jokes about them. Isn't that what movements such as Folk Against Fascism is all about? Or is the concern about creativity being potentially stifled and actually stifled only there when it comes to White people?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:13 AM

Correction to my first sentence of that repost:

"If you do not care for the loss of freedom that other creative people are experiencing, you should at least realize that you are laughing and sneering at information such at this at your own peril."

**

Here is an additional excerpt from that article about censorship in the Islamic province of in the northern part of Nigeria, West Africa:


"The censors board in Nigeria's northern Kano State was instituted in 2001 after the controversial implementation of Islamic shari'a law in Kano State. Film-making was at first banned outright, but the filmmakers' association of Northern Nigeria (MOPPAN) suggested a "review" board as a compromise measure, which allowed the industry to continue, though with certain restrictions on language, dress and "close dancing between men and women." (Five of the ten laws were specifically related to women's clothing or interaction with men.)...

he imprisonment clause has been put into effect several times. Besides Adam Zango, who was imprisoned in September 2007, pioneering Hausa director and former Kano State gubernatorial candidate Hamisu Lamido Iyan Tama was jailed after copies of his film Tsintsiya were impounded from a video shop in Kano in May 2008. He was accused of not registering his company Iyan Tama Multimedia with the censorship board.

(A court case reveals that the company had, in fact, registered and paid the required fees.) Ironically, the director was arrested the day of his return from the Zuma Film Festival in Abuja where Tsintsiya had won an award for Best Film on Social Issue. "

-snip-

Click http://ipsnews.net/africa/nota.asp?idnews=43857
to read more about what is now happening in Northern Nigeria and what could happen to creative people in my nation and your own nation if people aren't vigilant and pro-active.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:51 AM

I meant to post a hyperlink to that Mudcat thread that Guest Felipa started to alert us to the oppression of creativity that is occurring in one province of Nigeria. Here's that link:

thread.cfm?threadid=121513&messages=7 "11 Hausa songs banned in Kano, Nigeria"

**

At this time, the only other posting besides Felipa's and mine is a comment that "jokes" about Nigerian scam. I sincerely hope that other 'Catters and Mudcat guests will visit that thread and demonstrate your support for the songwriters, musicians, authors, film makers, actors, and other creative people who are being oppressed in that particular part of Nigeria.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:46 AM

A slight aside.

Heard on Beeb R4 this morning. The most common surname in Great Britain is 1/4 of a million strong and it is the name Patel.

I think this perfect.

I have invited Britain born Asian friend/former colleague to attend folk club with me, but folk music is not her cup of tea. Invited Turkish friend but she is young and prefers to spend her evenings playing snooker or riding about on motor bike with her partner.

In fact I have invited all close colleagues and friends and only one has attended once. The general attitude is not interested. So we need to address the young.

Having said that I wonder how we can first meet and then invite BME groups to engage in folk music and dance of Great Britain? I think one way would be through school fetes. If local Morris teams, ceileidgh clubs and folk musicians and singers would just approach the parent associations, get and invite, attend, do demos and provide recruitment literature and really welcome all.... oh dear....

Sigh.. I am dreaming again.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:20 AM

"Isn't that what movements such as Folk Against Fascism is all about? Or is the concern about creativity being potentially stifled and actually stifled only there when it comes to White people??"

Standing in solidarity with other groups is very important, Azizi. But as I've explained previously, Folk Against Fascism has a very specific brief, and if we're not careful, the group could become diverted from that brief by trying to address too many issues on too large a scale.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:51 AM

Pne of the things folk against facism is about is ownership of folk and ensuring that it does not ecome a right wing propagandist tool.

Yes, we should be proud of our tradtions and open let all people irrespective of nationality and ethnicity share in the pleasure the provide.

At the same time our traditions should sit comfortably alongside other traditions such as Diwali and Eid and Carnival (even if we get the date wrong in Notting Hill). I was invited to attend a party to celebrate Eid once and fekt honoured to receive the invitation.

Lets promote lots of folk events, roots events, other cultural events to celebrate how it is the richness of diverse cultures makes Britain great, and welcome all people to enjoy and participate.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:59 AM

Ruth: I agree of course we must stick to our important,although at the moment a bit vague brief.
BUT, Azizi has a very valid reason to broaden the information gathering. This action in Pakistan is exactly what we are guarding against. Whilst we should not as a body actively engage ourselves in their problems it serves as a warning to us.
As an individual I shall be keeping an eye on the Pkistan problem and doing whatever small thing I can, but as an individual at the moment.
Thanks Azizi for your input, it has opened my eyes several times.

FAF Andy

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:00 AM

I think they said Patel is AMONG the most common surnames. There are 729862 Smiths at the last count. Patel comes 45th with 119855.

:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:25 AM

I expect many will have seen this already, bu links are cheap enough!!
It says everything really.

FAF Andy

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:26 AM

"At the same time our traditions should sit comfortably alongside other traditions such as Diwali and Eid and Carnival "

This diversity is actively promoted in schools. My daughter goes to a CofE Primary school (it's the only primary school in the area)and alongside our traditional festivals, they learn all about those of other cultures.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:31 AM

Third try.

All together now !!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM

We don't all have to do it all.

No, of course we don't. But we have to be very careful how we explain why. If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult. On the other hand, occasionally including traditional musicians from your local Somali, Polish or Bangladeshi community in a small way might easily be seen as tokenism if your heart's not in it. Always having positive reasons to explain whatever you do is a good start, and supporting FAF would be another, to make everything very clear.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:07 AM

"although at the moment a bit vague"

We are raising awareness amongst the wider public of the attempt by the BNP to appropriate traditional music and culture as part of its racist definition of nationalism, and to claim that culture as theirs. We are attempting to block that appropriation. We are exposing the BNP as a party which has not changed, no matter how much they try and spin their PR, but which is still full of nazis and fascists. This is a specific agenda and a specific response to a specific set of circumstances - namely, the election of the BNP in Yorkshire, their selling of folk music on their website despite the wishes of the artists involved, and their campaign guides which advise activists to infiltrate folk culture. At the moment, that is what this is about. If it develops over time to embrace wider issues and themes that's fine, but in the meantime, I feel that there are a lot of existing groups who already cover these things and, while we may share solidarity with them, they are doing what they do very well and anyone is very welcom to join them.

The campaign through which we will do this is still in development (which is forgiveable, I think, given that the whole thing is still only 4 days old). But it will cetainly include events, concerts, and distribution of awareness-raising materials such as badges, stickers and t-shirts, plus leaflets which explain the reasons behind the campaign.

I hope that's clear. I think it's all there on the facebook page, really.



By the way, to everyone who's told me about the identity theft - ta. Yes, they've done a "Hoff Bridge" on me, too. It's been reported to Facebook. Sad, really, but at least it exposes the BNP and their grubby little tactics to anyone who thinks they've "changed".

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:10 AM

"This action in Pakistan is exactly what we are guarding against."



... erm ... you mean Nigeria ...




... hey ... if I hadn't someone else would have ... :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:14 AM

Folk music has been here longer than the BNP manifesto.
Worker co-ops have been around longer than the BNP manifesto.

We should not be apologising for the what we hold dear because the BNP are trying to hijack it. People own folk music, not the facist/Nazi movement. Suggestion to organisers: put Folk against Facism posters up at their venues, and refer to FaF in your adverts.

Br proud of how our traditionas are contributing and enriching a worldwide, diverse culture, of which we are a sma;ll part.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:24 AM

As a resident of the area that voted in the first fascist MEP (through intention or apathy), I feel the need to try to alert my fellow East Ridingers to the dangerous path that has been embarked on – especially as Hull was the birthplace of William Wilberforce, the man whose vision and efforts helped to end the slave trade in Britain. So I've written what I hope will be a rallying call to those who oppose these evil people. I intend to sing it at every opportunity.

The Legacy

In Hull, William Wilberforce first struck the spark
That kindled a beacon which lit up the dark
And as the flames soared it was clear to see:
The message that men must be equal and free.

Chorus:
So keep it alive, now, keep it alive,
William's legacy has to survive.
Freedom's hard-won so don't let it die
Use your voices and votes to stamp out the lies.

Today there are those who would put out Will's flame
And put our traditions and values to shame.
If you're black or you're brown, or a leftie, or gay,
Get out of our country, you're not welcome, they say.

Chorus

Now they don't have shaved heads, they wear collars and ties
But the cold light of hatred still shines in their eyes
And instead of the boot they use soft words and smile
But the message they peddle is equally vile.

Chorus

They may now think their views have legitimacy
And the Queen may invite them to join her for tea
But let's stand together and blow on Will's flame
And shout to these bastards: "Not in my name!"

Chorus

So good people of Hull and the East Riding towns
Don't let these bigots and fascists gain ground.
We've opened the door to their doctrine of hate
Now let's slam it again before it's too late.

Chorus

(Tune to follow).

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:42 AM

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious - PM
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM

We don't all have to do it all.

No, of course we don't. But we have to be very careful how we explain why. If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult. On the other hand, occasionally including traditional musicians from your local Somali, Polish or Bangladeshi community in a small way might easily be seen as tokenism if your heart's not in it. Always having positive reasons to explain whatever you do is a good start, and supporting FAF would be another, to make everything very clear.
so does that make the Northumbrian Pipers society racist,because it promotes ,a SPECIFIC MUSIC,[IMO]no,it only becomes racist when it excludes other nationalities from playing that music.
Neither is Comhaltas racist,because it promotes Irish music.
it is justifiable,just as Strathspey and Reel societies are justifiable,they are justifiable because they gives people pleasure,and providing these societies are open to all nationalities they are not racist.
would you expect the Sheffield, Yorkshire carol singers,to start singing   French carols? to combat the BNP,that is ridiculous.
one of the hallmarks of Fascism,is telling others what they should do
if you want a multi cultural folk music club start one,you are free to do so.
it will only be when the BNP takes power that you will not be free to do so.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:38 AM

Folknacious
:here are the aims of the EFDSS
MISSION STATEMENT:

The English Folk Dance and Song Society will develop its resources, namely the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, Cecil Sharp House, its professional staff and its members, to:

• maintain itself as a centre of excellence for the study, practice and dissemination of traditional English folk song, dance and music;
• provide national and local outreach services that enable and increase access;
• celebrate diversity and promote equality.
I do not think this is racist.
FOLKNACIOUS,why should folk club organisers change their booking policies?why should the EFDSS change its policy.
if you want a multinational/ international folksong/ music club,start one.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:40 AM

Here are some random comments:

Miskin Man, I recall reading on this thread or on another current thread something about the oppression of musicians and other creative composers/performers in Pakistan. That being the case, I can understand how you substituted the nation name "Pakistan" for the nation name "Nigeria". Bottom line-I have no problem with that.

**
I feel that too much energy on this thread is being spent on people feeling a need to declare that they aren't racist. I don't like the way this looks and feels. In the past, I've received private messages from some folks saying that they try to be extra careful what they say around me because they are concerned that I would call them a racist or-if I don't out and out call them a racist-I and other people might consider them racist.

This troubles me because 1. I rarely have indicated that something someone wrote is racist (note I'm talking about a person's actions and not the person himself or herself) and 2. I want to be seen as "just one of the group" and feel that I shouldn't be thought otherwise just because of my race and just because I sometimes feel the need to raise issues of prejudice/racism and/or respond to issues that others here have raised about race/prejudice. In other words, I don't go around Mudcat or my offline life accusing Mudcatters and guests at being racism.

That said, I believe that the current description (as I read about it on Mudcat-of Anglo British folk music (to use the "Anglo" meaning "White"terminology that is known in the United States)lends itself to expropriation by the BNP because it has so few non-White practitioners and followers/fans and because it appears to consider itself the only "traditional music" in Britain. In addition, the acceptance of songs with the "N" word, if that does occur as I read on Mudcat, and the custom of blackening up don't help answer any charge that might come (and I do believe will come) from people who are/will be far less friendly to your (our) cause than me.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:50 AM

Never mind the political bickering, here's something else we can all do:
(I don't think anybody's mentioned this yet)

There's a petition which says NOT IN MY NAME. The petition will
be handed into the European Parliament on the day that BNP leader Nick
Griffin takes his seat.

http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/notinmyname

Get your digital cameras clicking!
(you are asked to send in a photo of yourself holding up a card saying "not in my name")
63478 signatures already. That seems pretty amazing to me: it must have been running for a while)

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:53 AM

I tried to upload a photo and it went 404 - but if it does that just quit and log in again.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:02 AM

I don't think it is appropriate to define Anglo by its American meaning when it's being used in England, Azizi. From Wiki:

"The term Anglo is used as a prefix to indicate a relation to the Angles, England or the English people, as in the terms Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-American, Anglo-Celtic, Anglo-African and Anglo-Indian. It is often used alone, somewhat loosely, to refer to the English people in The Americas, Australia and Southern Africa. It is also used, both in English-speaking and non-English-speaking countries, to refer to Anglophone people of other European origins.

Anglo is a Late Latin prefix used to denote English- in conjunction with another toponym or demonym. The word is derived from Anglia, the Latin name for England, and still the modern name of its eastern region. Anglia and England both mean Land of the Angles, a Germanic people originating in the north German peninsula of Angeln."

English folk music is largely comprised of the indigenous folk music of England. It is not considered by anyone I know as the only traditional music in England - from ska to bhangra, it's all here, and long may it prosper.

There is nothing wrong, as Dick Miles has insightfully pointed out, with having a society or group dedicated to a particular genre of music or dance. As long as that society is welcoming and open to people of all backgrounds, and they too, as Britons (whether naturalised or born here) are allowed to feel equal ownership over that heritage, I don't really see the problem. I also think it's important to look for natural points of convergence. I'm hoping to have a project at Sidmouth next year which will look at Caribbean and English mumming traditions. It involves bringing a group of Dominican and Kittitian mummers to Sidmouth. It also involves work in local schools looking at both traditions. For me, these are natural and organic ways of examining diversity: find the points of commonality and use them as an entry point into each other's cultures.

That doesn't mean I think every folk club or singaround should contain African Caribbean songs - in fact, when at my local singaround a bunch of white, middle class people start singing Let My People Go or Bob Marley's Redemption Song, I cringe. I'd rather clubs and folk events were simply open and welcoming to anyone from other cultures who wishes to explore them.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:14 AM

FOLKNACIOUS,why should folk club organisers change their booking policies?why should the EFDSS change its policy. if you want a multinational/ international folksong/ music club,start one.

Did I suggest they should? As is often the case, you read selectively, buzzed by your own bonnet bees. All I was saying is that people who want to specialise just need to present their case in a way that doesn't accidentally sound like the BNP manifesto. The EFDSS have managed that. Not too hard, unless you are chasing bees.

Luckily I don't need to start my own. There's a very good one that I already attend which programmes all sorts of traditional music found in the UK, mostly from the white majority, occasional from a minority, which seems appropriately balanced, fun, successful, and not do-gooder tokenist at all

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:27 AM

That said, I believe that the current description (as I read about it on Mudcat-of Anglo British folk music (to use the "Anglo" meaning "White"terminology that is known in the United States)

Please DON'T. Many Scots, Welsh and Irish will find that INCREDIBLY offensive. We AREN'T English, not even if you use a Latinate word for "English" to say so. "Traditional music of the British Isles" will do.


lends itself to expropriation by the BNP because it has so few non-White practitioners and followers/fans and because it appears to consider itself the only "traditional music" in Britain.

The Scottish experience suggests differently. Pretty near any political demonstration by forces on the left will have a Highland piper (or band thereof) near the front.   There might well also be a samba school, but the expectation is that at least a large fraction of people involved in Scottish traditional music can be expected to turn up at any event opposing the sort of thing the BNP stands for. (The only kind of music in Scotland specifically associated with the far right is fife-and-drum band music, as used by the Orange Order).

There are a few non-white performers of Scottish music - mainly on the bagpipes (and that's been routine for decades), but one of the best-known Scottish traditional pub singers in Edinburgh is of Chinese extraction.

Getting morris sides at the front of English anti-fascist demos, and covered by the media when doing it, would help.


In addition, the acceptance of songs with the "N" word, if that does occur as I read on Mudcat,

Fairly unusual - I don't think I've ever heard that in a British folk performance, even one of the most antiquarian variety - but remember that the word itself doesn't carry quite the same nightmare emotional freight that it does in the US.

At any rate there is absolutely NO chance that you would hear the word used in a British folk performance in a context where it would lend support to fascists.


and the custom of blackening up don't help answer any charge that might come (and I do believe will come) from people who are/will be far less friendly to your (our) cause than me.

Blackening up really is an irrelevance. It doesn't historically have anything to do with African people or images of them, and it isn't generally perceived to be related to racial issues, even by racists. Blacked-up dance teams look more like mineworkers coming off shift than anything else. It's crazy to try and pick a fight with people who perform in that tradition - more likely to lose allies for the anti-fascist movement and create new friends for the BNP.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM

Azizi:
Sorry, I can do confused...But my sentiments were correct

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:59 AM

I've now tried signing the "not in my name" thing and I got an error message too (a different one from Tom). I'll keep trying...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:25 AM

Folknacious

No, of course we don't. But we have to be very careful how we explain why. If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult.

Getting it quite so spectacularly wrong takes some doing.

One of the purposes of this exercise is to prevent British folk music becoming tainted by the BNP. You seem to be saying that the battle is already lost; that the BNP already have possesion. The only way we can prevent this scum taking it over is making it truly our own WITHOUT having to justify ourselves.

Would you have told Ewan MacColl that the policy at the Singers Club of only singing songs from your own culture "sound(ed) like the BNP manifesto."?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:32 AM

Oh no, not again.

Policy @ Ballads & Blues as determined by the membership.

Not Ewan MacColl (who had a wide repertoire from all over.
And not the Singers' but the Ballads & Blues.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:44 AM

Getting it quite so spectacularly wrong takes some doing.

Yes, I'm not sure how you manage it

One of the purposes of this exercise is to prevent British folk music becoming tainted by the BNP. You seem to be saying that the battle is already lost; that the BNP already have possesion.

Not at all. How on earth you and old Lietnenant Birdsnest manage to completely misinterpret plain English is beyond me. Which bit of "If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult" are you having such trouble with?

The BNP don't have posession and I hope they never will: they might do if careless explanations of motivation (and heads in sand) play into their hands.

The other people who worry me are the little Englander folkies who look at the BNPs sweetened camouflage words and go "oh, they might just have a point." The only point the BNP have is on the end of their bayonets.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:49 AM

Correction -

Would you have told the residents* and members of the B&B Club (later known as the Singers Club) that their policy of only singing songs from your own culture "sound(ed) like the BNP manifesto."?

* Who included Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:52 AM

Pop music has lots of examples of being influenced by music from, for instance, the Beatles' Maharisi Yogi days to Sting's Arabian themed Desert Rain. There must be plenty of folk musicians out there doing the same.

DeG


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The Imagined Village

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:02 AM

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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious - PM
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM

We don't all have to do it all.

No, of course we don't. But we have to be very careful how we explain why. If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult. On the other hand, occasionally including traditional musicians from your local Somali, Polish or Bangladeshi community in a small way might easily be seen as tokenism if your heart's not in it. Always having positive reasons to explain whatever you do is a good start, and supporting FAF would be another, to make everything very clear.
FOLKNACOIUS these were your words,you said that it is only just justifiable with difficulty.
it is perfectly justifiable.
The Northumbrian PipersSociety,EFDSS,Comhaltas,the Strathspey and Reel society,[Icould probably find more examples]All have as their aim the promotion of one specific music,rather than the promotion of international folk music,it only becomes RACIST OR UNJUSTIFIABLE when they exclude someoneFROM PLAYING MUSIC on race grounds.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:07 AM

Folknacious

Which bit of "If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult" are you having such trouble with?

Er, all of it. I find the implication that unless I can "justify" my love of British or English traditional music that I am somehow a closet BNP supporter deeply offensive.

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM

Jack Campin: "Blacked-up dance teams look more like mineworkers coming off shift than anything else. It's crazy to try and pick a fight with people who perform in that tradition - more likely to lose allies for the anti-fascist movement and create new friends for the BNP."

I must agree with Jack here, too much damage done by whites 'in the name of' race relations has already occurred in the UK. It generates antipathy towards the cultures it purports to protect and is too often counterproductive. I believe in depth dialogues with British black people, would have to occur before anyone started intensive alterations of long existant native traditions 'on their behalf'.

As for the N word, I've only ever heard OF it being used second hand, though the context was very ugly sounding - and there is a clear danger in such practices gaining popularity amongst BNP 'folkies'. But I do think it aught to be actively discouraged in any folk gathering, due to the potential wrongful abuse of 'historical accuracy' and 'tradition'.

I liked the post by SPB-Cooperator however: "Suggestion to organisers: put Folk against Facism posters up at their venues, and refer to FaF in your adverts." As any such declaration, must deter fascists from indulging in 'traditional' practices for racist reasons.

Nice post from Ruth A there too. Sorry to hear about the trashy intimidation tactics - much respect to you for being willing to undertake organising a public response to this this challenge to folk traditions and the the folk community.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:41 AM

With reference to "blacking up" in the UK, it doesn't have the connotations it might have in the USA as the following may illustrate.

Two weekends ago, I was dancing at Thaxted at a large Morris Ring gathering (about 400 morris dancers etc.). After we'd danced for the day, we (being rapper sword dancers) thought we'd like to dance inside a pub with a decent floor. Went in and found the Britannia Coconut dancers (very trad. Lancashire morris who black up ... looking, as has been said, like coal miners) and on the front corner of the bar a black morris dancer from a team in the West Country. All just talking together affably.

No fuss. No suggestion of anything racial. Just a bunch of blokes having a convivial pint. All male of course, cos this is the Morris Ring, but that's another theme (and something I find quite difficult in itself).

:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Darowyn
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:43 AM

Well I think I know what I am going to do.
I'll get the crew who were involved in this together again:-
Colourblind Cafe
and record some folk tunes and songs. The example is a multi lingual Jazz track- but you'll get the message!
The project includes people from four continents and a dozen national origins.
A good British band who will bring a world feel to British tunes.
And let the blasted BNP find some comfort in that if they can!
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:35 AM

I find the implication that unless I can "justify" my love of British or English traditional music that I am somehow a closet BNP supporter deeply offensive.

There was no such implication. The only "implication" was exactly what it said: that people who [b]aren't[/b] BNP supporters but want - and why not? - to have a specialist white Brit trad music policy for a club have to pick their words carefully to avoid it inadvertently looking like they're saying the same thing as the BNP manifesto. And that adding support for FAF would be a good way of helping that.

Nobody said you had to book folk music from other cultures. Or were a BNP supporter. Just that you jump to conclusions that aren't there . . . which makes me wonder why you're so over-defensive.

Sheesh, why are you lot so f***ing [i]dense[/i]!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM

Folknacious, some people WANT to be offended, they feel their day simply isn't made unless they feel offended at least a half dozen times.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Welsh Viv
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM

For folk sake do you really think that folk music is gonna get someone interested in politics. Get a life...and some decent music.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:16 PM

"For folk sake do you really think that folk music is gonna get someone interested in politics. Get a life...and some decent music"

Oh look a Welsh troll *LOL

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:25 PM

Reminds me of someone going out of their way to watch dodgy porn, and then exclaiming in moral affront to the world, how dreadful and shocking their dodgy porn viewing experience was!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:31 PM

note the use of for FOLK sake...I've seen the usage somewhere before on these threads, damned if I can remember who used it though....

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:40 PM

Folknacious, you are getting this so utterly wrong that I don't quite know how to get through to you. Busy for the next couple of days. I might try and get back to you on Sunday. In the meantime, have a think about what you are saying.

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:19 PM

WV the whole purpose of this is to stop extreme right-wing politics highjacking folk music for their evil ends. Read the posts!!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:32 PM

Here's my contribution to the blacked-up faces part of this thread.......

Twice in recent years, whilst we were organising British tours for our great friend, the Gambian kora player and singer, Jali Sherrifo Konteh, we have managed to get him booked at the Tenterden Folk Festival. This was great for Sherrifo because he loves all aspects of traditional culture wherever they are from. At one of these we were watching the Saturday afternoon procession and a blacked-up border morris team danced by.

"Why do they put black on their faces?" Sherrifo asked.
My reply was that it was to help to disguise their faces.

"Oh yes. Like the Fula dancers that I took you to see in Busara." he replied.

That reminded me that on one of our trips to The Gambia, Sherrifo had taken us to a boys' circumcision/coming-of-age ceremony in a village in the south of the country and the Fulas in that village - it was a predominately Mandinka village - that were going to be dancing covered their faces with a sort of white chalky mud.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Anne Lister
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:00 PM

Folknacious, I'm still trying to work out why you quoted Billy Bragg's song at me. You think I don't know the history of these islands and our folklore? I think you missed the point of my posts, and as you're accusing others of being dense that's a bit ironic.

I'll try to keep it simple. As someone who is NOT "half English" I want the same right to claim and support my cultural heritage as someone from another background, without any risk of hi-jack from the BNP or any other political group. Like anyone else, I also want to be able to incorporate other influences (or not), invite participation (or not) from other people who share my ethnicity (or not)and not feel I'm doing this out of compulsion or coercion either to attempt the strange phenomenon of "multicultural diversity" or to cock a snook at the BNP.

My fears about the multicultural compulsion come after years of teaching in Hackney and Tower Hamlets.   It feeds the fears of the "Little Englanders" who are the target audience of the BNP. Only when the English (and I'm deliberately not saying British in this context) feel they can express pride in their own cultural heritage and feel it's equally valued by the media and grant-funders will we de-fuse that particular situation.

Me, I love the rich mix of Britain in all of its diversity. I'm also an enthusiastic supporter of our indigenous culture. Please don't preach at me, even through the words of Billy Bragg.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:18 PM

I'm a bit concerned that we are expected to put photos of ourselves on the petition.
Since there has been for some time a photo of me talking to ANL supporters picketing an NF stall at a fete - a stall which, despite the woman running it claiming she was not ashamed of her party, did not show who it was, and was happy to take money from the local Indian population, I am a little cautious of contributing more information to their database.Photos are part of their intimidation techniques.

Penny

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: melodeonboy
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:55 PM

Well done for your last post, Vic. Common sense demonstrated by a very clear example.

Perhaps we won't have any more silly comments on that particular subject now.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:53 PM

I made a modest suggestion that it might be nice to invite Zimbabwean friends down to the pub singsong or folk club. A capella African sits very attractively and pleasantly alongside Coppers harmony songs. I am surprised(well I'm not really) that this simple suggestion has been turned into "multi cultural compulsion" by another poster. I appreciate that there are about three posters on this thread who view the idea of a black singer visiting a folk club with hostility, but I am very pleased that the vast majoriy of folkies here in Britain would be absolutely delighted by a such a visit, and would be very welcoming. On that basis I will continue to arrange such visits, which luckily have so far led to very nice social occasions. AS far as I am concerned, a folk club is a folk club. If people want to run a white folk club, let them put that on the poster.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:58 PM

Shit I used to be happy to pay to see Johnny Silvo, a grand singer. Still would be. I've never seen a folk club disrespect a folksong singer from a different ethnicity.

Rifleman - I am coming to like some of your posts more and more. Some of the time!