Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 11:20 AM

I can't add much more than I have already said. We run pretty much along the lines of Pip's preferences. Little bit too much Jazz and Blues for my tastes occasionaly but I can live with that and still enjoy most of it.

We cope with poor performers by restricting their exposure to singers nights. 95% of our regulars, or more, I would put on anywhere and anytime. I think it may be a bit of a compromise to let the poor singers continue but, provided we 'limit the damage' I don't think it will do either our club or the general world of traditional music much harm.

I think Jim is right in saying that poor performances can do some harm and the point we seem to be going round in circles on is what should be done about them. I am sure I have said this before but the choices seem to be -

1. Let them continue performing whenever they like and help as much as possible until they inevitably improve.

2. Restict their performances until they have shown some improvement.

3. Let them carry on in a restrcted manner ad-infinitum and make sure they do not come across as representative of the whole 'folk scene' (Whatever that is!)

I think they all have their place in different circumstances.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 01:02 PM

Jim wrote:
"I have to say that your description of a folk club (at a somewhat superficial glance) sounds less like the clubs I know and more like a Freemasons Lodge where the public does not venture, but as I said, a superficial glance."

It's a club, Jim, but not as you know it.

"the question here is what is the 'lowest' standard we are prepared to accept from performers at the clubs."

That's up to the club members.

"Our music is held to ridicule by those outside our immediate circles"

I find the opposite - I'm surprised, when you mantion it, how many people say that they enjoy folk music - often people who you would not expect to. Folk is becoming the new cool.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 01:22 PM

Folk may be the the new cool but that could start of the whole discussion on what is folk. Again! I for one do not want to get into that, although I do have views on it. Maybe 'Folk' is far too wie a description that covers the genre from Seth Lakeman to Bob Copper, June Tabor to Kate Rusby and Bellowhead to the Spinners!

I suspect that is where a lot of this disagreement lies. Maybe I see a folk club as something completely different from anyone else? Maybe we all do? In which case we will never agree on what an acceptable standard actualy are because we are never comparing like with like!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM

Jim Carroll

"If they could hold a tune and make sense of the song they would be included fully in the proceedings - if they couldn't, they weren't, simple as that.
If the latter was the case one of us would approach whoever it was, sound them out and, if they showed any interest, they would be offered assistance, either on an individual basis or through the numerous workshops I have been involved in.

So can I get this clear? You have frequently said that performers should do the necessary practice BEFORE they are allowed to perform in public. For instance, most recently -

and when they have put in that work and mastered the basics, then they should be recognised as singers and given places as a performers. (My emphasis this time.)

Are you actually saying that anyone new who turns up to a club and says they would like to do a floorspot should be allowed to do so? Excellent! As for offering assistance to the needy, we already have a lot to do without setting up special arrangements for a need that we do not perceive. Our workshops are generally run for twenty people. We do not have twenty people who can't sing in tune. We do not have twenty people who can't tune their instruments. We do not have twenty people who can't remember their words without a crib sheet.

I'm afraid your attitude exudes a smugness - "doesn't effect our club so it doesn't exist"; not my nor other people's experience I'm afraid.

Now who's putting words in other people's mouths? You have explicitly stated that the policy we operate, that if someone wants to sing or play they should be given the opportunity to do so, constitutes "if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing.". I am simply reporting that that is not our experience. I cannot be held responsible for what happens at other clubs.

It is perfectly feasible that a number of poor singers descend on a club - seen it happen. I ask again - what would you do if it happened to yours?

This is a meaningless question. Nobody has "poor singer" branded on their forehead. What you are actually asking is "What would you do if a number of people we didn't know turned up to the club asking for floor spots?". We would give them floor spots of course. What would you do? Refuse to put them on in case they were all poor singers? That would be a pity because it is equally likely that they would all be brilliant. What is most likely is that one would be so-so, one would be excellent and the rest would be adequate.

What would you do if a single singer who couldn't sing persistently turned up expecting to sing?

Give them their spot, confident in the knowledge that, by sharing a venue with all the other floor singers that they heard over the evening, varying from adequate to excellent, they would improve. I've seen it happen.

We do what we do and we find that it works. Come and see if you don't believe me.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 02:18 PM

confident in the knowledge that, by sharing a venue with all the other floor singers that they heard over the evening, varying from adequate to excellent, they would improve.

What if they didn't? It is not a rhetorical question, I've see that happen! To coin a phrase I just saw somewhere... Come and see if you don't believe me. :-)

Maybe it just boils down to that then. No-one believes anything unless they have seen (and heard) it for themselves. I know that most people will improve. I am also absolutely certain that a very few will not.

DeG

PS - I'm transfering data onto my new NAS drive that I set up yesterday if anyone was wondering why I am so long at my computer. I need to do it but it is SO boring. I'm playing nethack as well:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 03:17 PM

"That's up to the club members."
Only if the club is the centre of your universe; some of us feel that the music and our responsibility for it extends far beyond that.
"Folk is becoming the new cool."
As I said, read the other threads, count your membership, compare the number of clubs with those of fifteen years ago, try getting a grant for a folk event or some research, take a peep at the EFDSS accounts, see how often folk music is presented fairly on television and radio - to quote the man "a person should try everything once, except incest and folk-music" or "the only thing you can do with a folk tune once you have played it is to play it again louder", or more recently "my idea of hell is to be locked in a folk club in Leeds (or somewhere" - can't lay my hands on the exact wording for any of these so I have paraphrased them).
Bryan
Throughout this thread I have referred to persistently bad singers; my first posting described this to be the case and the quote you just used was sent way up this column - otherwise I would have been advocating auditions, which I have most decidedly not been - if you missed my postings please give me the benefit of the doubt for a little intelligence (I think the phrase I used was 'one bite of the cherry').
If, as you claim, non-singers turning up for spots, mob-handedly or singly, is not something your club experiences, fine, couldn't be more delighted, but this means your advocating 'all you need is the will to sing' is academic as far as you are concerned and you are proposing that those of us who have experiences to the contrary should 'lie back and think of... wherever' is more than a little... what's the word I'm looking for.... smug maybe?
Personally, even if it had not happened in my presence on numerous occasions I would be a little disturbed to hear that it was a frequent occurrence elsewhere; persistent bad singing has contributed a great deal to the decline in the clubs and was being debated under the heading 'Crap begets crap' decades ago in the pages of Folk Review.
Sorry, putting singers on before they are ready to face an audience (or even advocating such a practice) is "if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing" as far as I'm concerned.
As for your claim that "We do what we do and we find that it works" doesn't really apply to this argument as you haven't experienced the phenomenon that I, DeG and others have.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 03:19 PM

PS
What's nethack?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 03:58 PM

Jim, you contradict yourself so much that there is no point in spelling it out. It is sad because, if you would only drop your prejudices, you would find that there is much going on in UK folk clubs that you would enjoy and even admire. It's your loss.

On your own admission, you walked out on the UK folk revival ten years ago. Some of us stayed and are doing our best for the music we love. If you have nothing positive to contribute, go away and leave us alone.

I know nothing will persuade you, but thank you for allowing me to use you as a sound board to express my views about "what it's all about".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 04:11 PM

Nethack

Very geeky, I'm afraid. I should practice the concertina more, really. Which is why I will only ever be 'adequate':-(

Now, Bryan, what about my question. What would you do if you came across someone who was bad to start with never got any better? I seriously hope you never do but, trust me, there are such things.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 04:33 PM

FFS! We are in danger here of disappearing up our own rear ends. No wonder the septics get pissed off with the navel-staring, OCD Brits!
For myself, I'd be happy to visit any of the paragons of perfection detailed on this thread, but I've not been lucky enough so far to have found them when the wind's in the right direction and the driver for the Variety Club Sunshine Coach for the Special Needs Singers hasn't left his GPS at home.
Ah well, one day...
Until then, I think I'll join Jim Carroll and Silas in the intolerant sad bastard corner, where we can take it in turns to smash shaky eggs to bits with toffee hammers and bemoan the fact that, for all the good intent on this thread, there are still people who should be fucking muzzled!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 05:48 PM

Come on Gervase - Tell us what you really think:-D

...and I don't remember you watching my last performance!

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 06:35 PM

In my opinion,this thread is becoming ill mannered.
we all care about the music we like,perhaps it would be wise,just to agree to disagree,rather than engaging in point scoring.
to get back to the original point,here are my views.
it is good manners for a guest to stay and watch all the other singers,it is good manners for other singers to listen to other performers,it is good manners to applaud performers,it is good manners not to throw beer over people,it is good manners not walk out in the middle of someones song.
it really is quite simple ,treat other folkclub members in the way youiwould like to be treated yourself.yours sincerely, God.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:27 AM

Bryan:
"if you would only drop your prejudices,"
You mean roll over and agree with your somewhat dodgy contention that folk singing requires no standard (apart from the desire to perform) before being rolled out before an audience, paying or otherwise?
Cap'n,
Sorry to disagree; I think this thread, apart from a few lapses on all our parts, has been remarkably bloodshed free, particularly considering its length. We tend to argue passionately about the things we feel passionate about - and that can only be a good thing - surely.
As for those braindead prats who disagree with me.....!!!!!
Best,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:38 AM

I thought it had become remarkably well mannered over the last few days!

But, I agree with the message from God, above. Manners come down to treating other people in the way you wish to be treated.

Don't distract others
Join in when required
Shut up otherwise
Don't subject people to unrehearsed twadle:-) (Except me...)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:41 AM

"there are still people who should be fucking muzzled!" LOL! And players who should be forced to wear boxing gloves.


Anyway, perhaps the analogy used about restaurants applies to folk clubs - "people get the clubs they deserve".

Just to go back to the original subject of manners, there are a couple of things that IMO apply.

The first is turning up on time. OK I've got a bit of phobia about punctuality, myself, but if singers drift in throughout the evening, an MC who is anxious to accomodate everyone instead of telling them to F-off has to constantly rearrange the running order and this can be irriating for other singers.

The second is people joining in with their instruments. It's fine in singarounds but, no matter how accomplished the musician, it can sometimes be quite disconcerting for a singer who has developed and practiced a particular arrangement of their own.

The third is people who tune up whilst someone else is performing. Sometimes it's hard to resist saying, "shut the fuck up or you'll end up with that guitar/banjo/whatever as a enema".

Let's face it tolerance only stretches so far.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:37 AM

Jim Carroll

You mean roll over and agree with your somewhat dodgy contention that folk singing requires no standard (apart from the desire to perform) before being rolled out before an audience, paying or otherwise?

What am I supposed to do, Jim, when you don't seem to have taken on a word I've said?

We don't roll singers out before an audience, we give members of the audience opportunities to perform. We don't say folk singing requires no standard, we say that we trust our floor singers to share our love of the music and set the standards for themselves. We try to lead by example; our own to the best of our abilities and that of the guests we book so that people will practice because they want to not because of some threat of withdrawal of privileges.

As I have said, "We do what we do and we find that it works." You seem to concede this when you say -

"I have no doubt whatever that there are clubs where the standards are high enough not to give the impression that folk singing is artless and inept; nor do I hesitate, on the basis of what I've heard, to include your club among the better ones,"

Rather bizarrely, you then seem to try and blame our policy at The Lewes Arms for poor standards elsewhere.

If we are to try and raise the public perception of folk music, the first step is to start believing in it ourselves. A while ago, people got up in arms about some stupid remarks by Matthew Parish. Who cares? It's those who rubbish our music from within that are the greater danger.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:26 AM

Snail - I have no doubt that what you do works in your club and as far as you are concerned that is the beginning, middle and end of the matter.

In the world outside your excellent club however in some instances applying your strategy would not/does not work.

This is why several people have asked what exactly would you do in the scenarios described regarding improvement of singing standards.

Are they likely to get a response.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:41 AM

John Routledge

Are they likely to get a response.

I thought I had given one. See my posting of 16 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM starting from where I quote Jim Carroll as saying - It is perfectly feasible that a number of poor singers descend on a club

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:58 AM

I `ad that Jim Carroll in my cab the other day and `e looked well beside `imself.
I said , "Whereto Jim?"
`e said, " The nearest chemist you know. I need some Paracetemol."
I said, " What, you got a `eadache or something?"
`e said, "Nah, I did a floor spot in a club last night and the bloke who runs it came up to me and asked if I wanted to go to their singing workshop. I said `What, to show `em `ow its done?` `e said, `Nah, to join the class!!`"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:00 AM

"GUEST,Jim Knowledge"
I take it from your accent that you are a London cabbie - in which case - couldn't have been me - I couldn't afford the fares they charge there - nor the time it takes to drive all rahnd the bleedin' ahses before they get you to were you wanna go
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:12 AM

Went up to a London cabbie the other day and said "How do you get to the Albert Hall?"

He says, "Mate, you've gotta practice!"

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM

In response to John R's comments, I'll repeat one unanswered one, Bryan.


The Snail 16 Nov. 2:03PM
confident in the knowledge that, by sharing a venue with all the other floor singers that they heard over the evening, varying from adequate to excellent, they would improve.


Me (David el Gnomo) 16 Nov 2:18PM
What if they didn't? It is not a rhetorical question, I've see that happen! To coin a phrase I just saw somewhere... Come and see if you don't believe me. :-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 10:50 AM

Snail,why does your Lewes folk club run workshops?
is it not to help improve standards?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

Captain Birdseye

Snail,why does your Lewes folk club run workshops?
is it not to help improve standards?

Of course. We want to do all we can to help people improve.

Again let me refer you to my post of 16 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM, paragraph starting "Are you actually saying that anyone new who turns up to a club..."

They are aimed at anyone who wants to improve from whatever starting point. One of our fiddle workshops had seven violin teachers amongst the attendees.

They are not compulsory and attendance is not a pre-condition for getting a floorspot.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:34 PM

Ever feel like you are being ignored? :-D

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:34 PM

Brain dead prats who disagree with me........ oooo controversial or what !! Just when the thread was recovering from a surfeit of mis understanding??!!
Re Richard Bridge's experience ( choirmaster ) I was given an induction tour of the local Grammar school ( 11+ and all that) and because I couldn't span an octave? was told I would be taking Science and not Music.
My take on folk clubs now is to just enjoy a live performance, some are better than others but if the artist is being paid to perform then Jim's expectations apply.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:46 PM

They are not compulsory and attendance is not a pre-condition for getting a floorspot.
this is a completely irrelevant comment,no one suggested that attending your workshops were a pre condition for doing a floor spot.
however you have a set up that many other clubs might be jealous of,the opportunity for folk club members to improve.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

Captain Birdseye

this is a completely irrelevant comment,no one suggested that attending your workshops were a pre condition for doing a floor spot.

You appeared to be linking our workshop series to the "problem" of persistently bad singers. Jim most certainly has suggested that such performers be required to accept tuition or attend workshops before being allowed to sing again.

however you have a set up that many other clubs might be jealous of,the opportunity for folk club members to improve.

Thank you. Perhaps you understand why I am a little peeved to be told that our policy is crass and that we are championing crap singing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:09 PM

Bryan,
"What am I supposed to do, Jim, when you don't seem to have taken on a word I've said?"
There appears to be a built-in arrogant assumption here that because you've said something we all have to agree with it, otherwise we either can't have been listening or are prejudiced. Sorry Bryan, you simply haven't made your case, simple as that.

"We don't say folk singing requires no standard,"
By saying that all it takes is the desire to sing, you ARE saying that singing requires no standard – what about holding a tune or remembering, understanding and communicating the words, are they not essential basics to singing?

"withdrawal of privileges"
Evocative and misleading language again. Nobody is advocating the "withdrawal of privileges"; we are suggesting that the act of singing publicly should carry the responsibility of putting in the work beforehand in order to reach a fairly basic stage – well within the reach of virtually everybody, or don't you think so?

"We do what we do and we find that it works."
As I said earlier – it all seems to be academic as far as your club is concerned; you have consistently told us that you don't get non-singers turning up asking to sing, so what you are advocating is that the rest of us tolerate what you don't have to.

"....and blame our policy at The Lewes Arms for poor standards elsewhere."
Once a gain, total misrepresentation of what we are saying. My/our opposition is to the idea that a singer doesn't have to reach a basic standard before they are asked to sing (once, of course, it has been established that they are unable to sing – "one bite of the cherry"). It may appear so to you but Lewes isn't the centre of the universe and NOBODY has suggested that your club is responsible for poor standards elsewhere – as you have assured us, your club doesn't have the problem of sub-standard singers turning up and asking to sing, so your argument is an academic one. This is not a discussion of the Lewes policy, but a general one of basic principles and standards.

".......stupid remarks by Matthew Parish. Who cares?"
I do. I have no idea of who Mathew Parrish is so I don't know with what authority he speaks, but I do know that public statements such as his are an indication of how our music is regarded outside of our own folkie world and have done much to create a disregard, and even a contempt for our music and have played a major part in keeping it off the media – or am I mistaken; does folk music get a regular and fair airing on television and radio and is it respected in the 'real' world? The disturbing thing about Parrish and his fellow knockers is that in many cases their criticisms have some foundation. If we do not respect our music enough to expect singers to be able to sing in tune before they appear in public, how the hell can we ask others to?

Throughout this thread, the arguments of those of us who suggest that standards are necessary have consistently been misrepresented, distorted and exaggerated, often deliberately I believe. I can't speak for anybody else, but, for what it's worth, this is a summing up of my argument, which hasn't altered because nobody has put forward a half decent one to counter it – on the contrary, the somersaults and distortions that have been used to undermine our case have strengthened my opinion that there is no argument for putting on singers who cannot yet sing.

From the point of view of the audience:
Nobody should have to listen to (or pay for) bad singing when, with a little effort on the part of the would-be singer, and with the help of the residents, their singing can be brought up to a reasonable (basic) standard. What is the hurry to sing in public; surely it is to the advantage of all concerned for a singer to get the basics under The position should never arise in a club that, when certain singers begin to sing, people slope off – to pee – to fill their pints – or simply to get out of range.
It is a sad fact that audience members, particularly new ones, will remember bad singing as much as they remember good singing; if not more so. Put on inept singing and your club stands a fair chance to be branded as a place for bad singing, no matter how good the other singers are – seen it happen and have on occasion been guilty of making such judgements myself in the distant past.

From the point of view of the other residents.
Anybody who has appeared with a singer/singers with basic problems must have experienced that legs-crossing embarrassment, both on behalf of the singer and of the club you are trying to promote. I've known it totally spoil an evening and have heard residents apologise when it happens. With a little preparation it simply isn't necessary, so why put anybody through it, the new singer included?
How are the residents and regulars expected to react to bad singing? Do they applaud riotously, thereby persuading the aspiring singer that what they have just done was the best thing since the invention of the wheel - so keep on truckin' – no need for any work – see you next week?
Do they clap politely, giving the impression that the singing was 'well – ok, leaving them in limbo and not knowing where they stand?
Or do they go down for a pee and a pint and pretend nothing happened?
Or what?

From the point of view of a new singer.        
What on earth difference can it make whether a singer appears tonight or in three of four weeks time when they have managed to put in the work and taken advantage of the assistance that any self-respecting folk club has to offer, which should include confidence building and relaxation to overcome nerves?
It has always seemed to me that putting a new singer before they are ready is like throwing somebody into a swimming pool in order to teach them to swim – sure, some might make it back to the side, but what about those who don't – let the buggers drown??? I'm sure that I'm not alone in having experienced the feeling jeeze – why did I do that and why didn't some bugger stop me?

Answer these questions Bryan and you might go some way to persuading me that you have something to say.

More to be said, but this is far too long as it is.
Jim Carroll
PS Bryan,
"Jim most certainly has suggested that such performers be required to accept tuition or attend workshops before being allowed to sing again."
I suggested no such thing - I did say that any singer with basic problems should overcome them before they became regular singers at the club no matter how they did it - workshops are an alternative, certainly not a condition, as were one-to-one work with other residents, or simply sitting at home with a recorder until they got it passably right - please don't distort what I have said.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:18 PM

this is the problem,if clubs allow large numbers of extremely bad singers,[tone deaf,unable to hold a key],without offering workshops,the singers will not improve,the club will suffer,and the music will suffer,in as much as it will not be an enticement to listeners because the standard is awful.
if I was running a club,I would allow singers providing their instruments were in tune,they could hold a key for the length of a song,that is a pretty low standard,I do not expect amateurs to be as good as professionals.
I prefer if they didnt use word sheets,particularly on guest nights,a goal for new singers to aim towards,to try and work hard to memorise one song for a guest night,its not asking much is it?
if they dont want to do this then they dont sing on a guest night,people pay more money on guest nights,so its not unreasonable to expect a better standard.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 02:54 PM

A quickie here in response to Captain Birdseye. I don't wish to be rude, but how long ago were you a 'beginner'? For me, though I do set the songs I'm learning to heart - simply because I genuinely want to do it for myself as much as anything, there is the whole 'first night nerves' thing. Even the best actors freeze up on stage. Pethaps a little flexiblility could be allowed for the genuinely enthused newbie, who may be anxious the first few times they attempt to sing in public. In the last couple of months I've set around a dozen or so songs to heart. I've sung those to small audiences with very brief glances to word sheets at anxious moments. An experienced performer may forget what it's like to be a newbie? A thorticle.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:09 PM

Quoth Jim

"We don't say folk singing requires no standard,"
By saying that all it takes is the desire to sing, you ARE saying that singing requires no standard"

Funny, when I said on the "folk voices" thread that that was what you were saying, you gainsaid it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:13 PM

Quoth Jim   "the act of singing publicly should carry the responsibility of putting in the work beforehand in order to reach a fairly basic stage"

Sorry Jim, but that is "If you aren't good enough, I'm banning you". It's all there is to it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:32 PM

Jim, my outburst of frustration was not because you have disagreed with what I have said but because you have totally ignored it. Please respond to the points I made in my posts of 16 Nov 08 - 08:48 AM and 16 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM. Then I will answer your questions.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:36 PM

Captain Birdseye

large numbers of extremely bad singers

Where are these people? They certainly aren't at the Lewes Arms.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM

Sleepy Rosie, come to the Lewes Arms where you will find an appreciative and supportive audience.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM

I did not say they were,but it can be arranged.,how many do you want and how much do you pay
Rosie I have not forgotten,
when I was a newbie,nobody sang with words they would have been laughed off the stage,we practised and rehearsed hard,the competition was stiff to get a floor spot,standards were high,there were floorsingers like Paul Simon etc.,in fact he was turned away tat the rising sun in Catford,the organiser DaveCooper said I have seen you before, I dont like what you do,on your bike[or words to that effect]

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM

Sorry Bryan, help me out here; what points in the posting you mentioned have I not responded to; I may have missed something but as far as I can see I have covered them all a number of times.
"Where are these people? They certainly aren't at the Lewes Arms."
Do you not believe those of us who have said we =have encountered bad singers frequently?
Richard;
Are you assuming that those expected to put in the necessary work are going to refuse?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:30 PM

Hmm, well seeing as Paul Simon, has done rather well for himself, it'd seem that kicking him out of the club, was something of a faux pas? Kinda like the local pie and mash shop rejecting a michelin starred chef? Not for the first or last time of course... Anyways, I think that the inability to allow a new singer a bit of a confidence boost with a discreet word sheet, is a little stiff. But fortunately of course, not everyone thinks alike. There is gladly a middle ground, as is indeed being vibrantly opinioned in threads such as this.. ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:51 PM

Jim Carroll

Sorry Bryan, help me out here; what points in the posting you mentioned have I not responded to

Um, all of them? Help me out here. Point me to where you have responded to any of them. In particular, what is your response to my assertion that organisers, performers and audience are not separate groups but overlapping categories within the same people and what you would do if a group of unknown people turned up at your club (if you ran one) asking if they could do floor spots? (Assuming they didn't have "Poor singer" branded on their foreheads.)

Do you not believe those of us who have said we =have encountered bad singers frequently?

Please explain why the policy we operate at The Lewes Arms is responsible for the "large numbers of extremely bad singers" which apparently infest the clubs you attend. Strange, I go to other clubs but I haven't met them there either.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM

well Rosie,
Paul Simon may have done well for himself,so has Daniel O Donnell,popularity does not necessarily equate with quality.
I wouldnt bother to see Paul Simon,but that a matter of taste, he is certainly competent,and his songs are popular but so is D.O.D..
you asked me a Question, I gave you the truth,no one sang from crib sheets,so why is it necessary now?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 07:57 PM

I'm just back from Mike Canavan at Swinton with support singers, Me (one very quick song), Double Trouble (2), Gary and Vera Aspey (3) and Carol Jones (2). It was an excellent night but there were some people there who I just could not not get on. Even so we did not finish until 2350! Apologies to those who did not make it.

I am still waiting for the answer to my question. Bryan, what would you do with a singer who failed to improve? Do you not believe that they exist? Why not? There is enough evience. Or are you not answering my question for some other reason?

Cherrs

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:50 AM

In all this discussion about 'music' it's easy to forget an equally important part – the 'folk'. In my book, folk music exists for the maximum number of people possible to enjoy, whether listening or singing. The folk club is a relatively new institution so, in a way, it isn't at the heart of the music. Some of my most enjoyable experiences have been impromptu sing-songs in people's house, pubs, at parties and in caravan awnings at festivals. Nobody worrying about who could sing well and who couldn't – just everyone enjoying themselves. It's a revival of this sort of communal singing that people like Jon Boden are trying to encourage. Yes, it's easy to mock when I say that folk music should be 'fun' – but what is the point otherwise?

I'm sorry, but I still don't understand the objection to song sheets. When I go to a classical concert, the orchestra and conductor have music in front of them. Maybe they should just practice more and memorise it. And when I once went to church (oh, alright, twice) we were given books with the words of the hymns in them. Nobody said we weren't allowed in until we'd memorised all the words. With the best will in the world, we all forget the words from time to time – I've stood up in front of an audience to sing I song I wrote myself and have performed dozens of times and, for some reason, couldn't remember past the first line. Surely it's better to have the words on hand than dry up? Talking of which.....better get some work done.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:57 AM

Bryan, 16 Nov 08 - 02:03
This is the posting you want answering - here goes
"Are you actually saying that anyone new who turns up to a club and says they would like to do a floorspot should be allowed to do so?
Yes - though I would prefer the term 'encouraged' rather than "allowed" - one bite of the cherry as I have already stated several times.
"we already have a lot to do without setting up special arrangements for a need that we do not perceive....."
You have made clear that do don't have the problem of non-singers turning up, though you do seem to be having difficulty in believing that the rest of of have encountered it - in some cases often. What do you suggest that clubs do about it - so far, your idea seems to be, let them go ahead and practice in public.
Your attitude still seems to be - "doesn't effect our club so it doesn't exist"; not my nor other people's experience I'm afraid.
"I cannot be held responsible for what happens at other clubs."
I have repeatedly said that this is not a discussion on the Lewes Club policy but a general discussion on what happens in folk clubs; if you want a discussion on your club policy, start a separate thread.
"Nobody has "poor singer" branded on their forehead..... We would give them floor spots of course. What would you do?"
Again, I have answered this "one bite of the cherry and ask them to put in the work", plus offer of help. From the beginning the question has been about non-singers who persistently turn up.
"What would you do if a single singer who couldn't sing persistently turned up expecting to sing?" "Give them their spot, confident in the knowledge that, by sharing a venue with all the other floor singers that they heard over the evening, varying from adequate to excellent."
In my experience it is extremely debatable whether the best place for singers to learn to sing in tune is in front of an audience - from the point of view of both the singer and the audience. You use the term "adequate to excellent" - do you consider singers who can't sing in tune and are unable to communicate the words 'adequate'?
"We do what we do and we find that it works......"
But you don't have the problem of non-singers turning up - what's to work?
It is the responsibility of club organisers, to the audience (paying or otherwise), the residents and the music to see that what goes on at clubs it to a standard that can be appreciated and enjoyed; sorry, can't understand how people can enjoy consistently poor singing, which is totally unnecessary if recognised as such and worked on.
There, been right through your posting - now you are free to respond to mine - or not, as the case may be.
I assume from your last posting that you believe that I and others on this thread are inventing our experiences regarding poor singing in clubs - is it still a case of 'if it doesn't happen at Lewes it can't exist?'
Richard;
"If you aren't good enough, I'm banning you"
I have never said this, nor would I - it is not within my power to 'ban' anybody', even if I wished to - which I don't. I have explained throughout this thread how I would deal - and have dealt in the past with singers who were having problems; 'banning' has never come in to the equation.
I find your accusation as offensive as I am sure you would would find mine if I were to suggest that you would take every second good singer out into the yard and execute them because "there are too many masters".
The value of this discussion lies in the fact that it is and exchange of ideas between people who care enough about the music to want to do something about it - snide remarks really don't help.
While I'm at it - wouldn't it be a little considerate to confine our arguments to this thread and not let them spread to others on a totally different topic?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM

Surely it's better to have the words on hand than dry up? Talking of which.....better get some work done.
No [imo] it isnt.
classical musicans,use music for different reasons.
1. The pieces are much longer.
2.there are instriuctions on the music regarding interpretation.
3.they are not all playing at the same time and need to have instructions[like 33bars rest ETC].

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:17 AM

Why don't we do what they do in Golf !?

As Derek Brimstone pointed out, in golf the worst you are, the more goes you get....

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:42 AM

Quoth Jim   "the act of singing publicly should carry the responsibility of putting in the work beforehand in order to reach a fairly basic stage"

Sorry Jim, but that IS   "If you aren't good enough, I'm banning you".

It's all there is to it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:50 AM

Jim Carroll said:-
I have repeatedly said that this is not a discussion on the Lewes Club policy

Which Lewes club might that be, Jim?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:51 AM

Richard - if we get banned, its God's way of telling us we should never have bothered with the miserable sods in the first place.

In some cases, I just wish God had told us sooner and more forcefully - and without leaving room for ambiguity.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:52 AM

I don't believe it says anything of the sort, Richard, and Jim has stated quite categoricaly that he would not ban anyone. I also believe that the act of singing publicly carries the responsibility to do it well and I don't think people should be banned from singing altogether. I do believe that it is not in the best interests of the audience to have bad singers on during a concert they have paid for. If that is a ban then who can I get to represent me in the case I have against the Albert Hall, who heve banned me from performing with Martin Carthy?

Cheers

DeG