BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:17 PM

"When we curtail our own domestic civil liberties in order to silence specific factions in society, the terrorists have won."

Seem to me that's what's been happening to Liz on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:17 PM

"Anybody going to stop bickering and state clearly whether they support the protest or not."

I did earlier too, in my words.

Then the discussion evolved.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:24 PM

Anybody able to do something good for society and help this Charity.

thread.cfm?threadid=126422&messages=5

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:26 PM

"Seem to me that's what's been happening to Liz on this thread."

How? Has anyone prevented her from saying exactly what she likes? No, they've simply disagreed with her and demonstrated that her arguments are inflammatory and prejudicial, founded on misinformation.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:43 AM

It is usual to deny permission for demonstrations likely to lead to disorder. Marches in NI are a good example.
The WB demo was sure to have counter demos and had to be banned, IMO.
As for Lizzie, she does not seem at all racist or bigotted to me, but I too have been falsely accused of those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:12 AM

It's been reported in todays papers that it's now been cancelled.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:46 AM

GUEST,999 - PM
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:17 PM

"When we curtail our own domestic civil liberties in order to silence specific factions in society, the terrorists have won."

Seem to me that's what's been happening to Liz on this thread.<<<



Thank you. x

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:47 AM

I won my pound or penny - whichever way it works anyway:-)

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 06:35 AM

"Except that I have made this point repeatedly: Britain DOES stand for tolerance. And free speech. And it defends the right to dissent. So when some (rather reactionary) people try and "protect" British culture by suggesting that anyone with "unacceptable" views should leave the country, there is a deep irony in their failure to grasp even the fundamental structures on which their democracy is founded."


Britain does NOT stand for Bloody Stupidity though...and for too long, we have.

We have put up with way too much shit for way too long, and you can only push the British so far before we explode.

'Tolerant' means that we put with way more shite than other countries, because of our kind and welcoming nature, but when that tolerance is abused....when our kindness and welcome are spat on with hatred, then sorry, but....the door is over there....

Stupid ideas like yours, where we should tolerate ANYONE and ANYTHING have led us to the state we are now in, where you have people who loathe this country, living here, taking advantage of all they can, whilst secretly preaching hatred and abuse to young men and undermining our society....or gangs from Eastern Europe who bring their tribal wars over here, their prostitutio rackets, etc.....

It stinks.

And if it had been stopped a long while back, things would be far better now.

If you let the rest of the world see you as a soft touch, then you will be treated like one.

Unconditional Love is not what democracy is about, because with that always come those who will abuse the love. Respect is what democracy is about, and with respect goes never preaching hatred or choosing to blow people up, hurt them, steal from them, or bring terror to people. That is unacceptable.

Democracy carries Responsibility with it.

And that goes for all people, of all colours, backgrounds and religions, no matter if they've lived here for generations or have just arrived on our shores.

We have long forgotten the respect part, in our rush to claim democracy as an open free for all, for all to behave as they so choose.

There have always been unwritten rules within our democracy, covering respect for others...Those rules have been thrown away by people who ain't interested in them. They are only interested in themselves and their visions.

And Lox, I do not defend 'wrong', no matter who the friend may be.

I will always tell someone when they are wrong. But I will be there to mop up the tears and give hugs to, when they're needed.

Tough Love
Tough Democrary


AND....as you believe so much in free speech, as does your pal Ralph, I'm sure you'll both now be writing to the BBC to ask them to restore MY freedom of speech on there...and to stop kicking up such a spiteful hullabaloo on here purely because you're angry that Joe HAS allowed me freedom of speech on here, against the wishes of you and your pals.

Once again, it staggers me that someone with your outlook, who seeks to stop people from having an opinion, having a voice, is running FAF, but...Wonders Never Cease...as they say...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 06:43 AM

I reckon this is building up to one of those threads where Lizzie leaves and never returns.

Subject: Is folk music killing itself?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish - PM
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 08:46 PM

This is my final thread on Mudcat, after being told that I don't see music in the same way as you 'musicians'...and being kind of lambasted for daring to say I thought Eddi Reader had the most beautiful voice..

Sometimes Lizzie changes her mind in the space of twenty minutes.

Sometimes it takes a little longer.

One thing is for certain. She has left Mudcat never to return more times than anyone else!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:10 AM

Joe, could this thread now be closed, please.

Joe, can you please keep their playground open for them after all, thanks.

...you're angry that Joe HAS allowed me freedom of speech on here, against the wishes of you and your pals.

This is absolutely priceless and getting better by the minute. Keep it up Betty.

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:25 AM

"If you let the rest of the world see you as a soft touch, then you will be treated like one."

So we've got Soft Touch Britain and "If you don't like how we do things here, leave." Not to mention yesterday's classic "How can we tuen Islam BACK to peace?" Any more right-wing, knee-jerk, reactionary drivel you'd like to post before lunch?


"Stupid ideas like yours"

Stupid ideas like the free speech which you constantly advocate and defend - for yourself? I know this is a difficult concept for you, 'Liz', but I will try and spell it out once more: when you curtail the civil liberties of the many to punish the few, the terrorists and extremists are winning. Before you go on about the unwritten rules in our democracy, I suggest you do a bit of reading and find out what they actually are. How are you getting on with that Billy Bragg book, by the way? Or is it still gathering dust on your shelf?


Now, I have tried to stick to the actual issues being debated here, but as you've chosen (as usual) to make it personal, let's make something perfectly clear: I never did anything to have you banned from the BBC messageboards, or any of the other myriad places from which you have been banned on the internet (including this one, on more than one occasion). The BBC banned you for persistently harassing its staff, as we know because you actually made the messages public. Remember the bit where they said action would be taken if you didn't leave them alone? You have no one but yourself and your antisocial behaviour to blame, but it's clear you're not good at accepting the truth of these situations, and it serves you better to believe that other people have done something to "get you banned". Sorry, 'Liz', but the fault lies with you and you alone.

Now, if the BBC choose to ban you from being antagonistic and disruptive on their messageboards and from harassing their staff, I guess that's their right. But if you wanted to conduct a protest about their decision to ban you outside Broadcasting House, I would fully support your right to do so, even if I thought that you were completely bonkers. That's free speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:44 AM

You know, the 'Liz' thing is a really interesting 'mind' one.

There is only one person on here who calls me that...and calls me that out of a deep friendship, too...and that person has been on this thread, but all the others on here who've used it have used it purely to be malicious.

Strange how three little letters reveal so much about a person.

Can you please not tell the same old lies about me harrassing the BBC staff, even though, again, you do it to paint me in the worst light. The BBC accused me of that, when it didn't actually happen at all, because at no time did I address any of my emails to anyone in particular, merely replied to theirs. Again, I realise this irks you, and it's far better, from your point of view, with your vision of how you want others to view me, to paint that picture, but I have told you, over and again about this, yet still you choose to tell a complete lie.

Interesting.

I guess some use their free speech to spin, lie and put others down as much as they can..

And you feel that's what democracy is for, huh?

As I said, you and you're gang have repeatedly tried to ban me from here, let alone succeeding with the BBC.

May I suggest you go back to you FAF page, and your buddies' page, where you are free to put down whatever lies and terrible comments about me that you want to...for after all, that's what your Folk Against Facism page is about, right...? Freedom for all, apart from those you don't like...

You carry on and use your freedom of speech to wound, Joan, it's obviously where you get your enjoyment from...but please, don't tell me that I have to accept people preaching hatred and putting my country down, because I don't.

I have very different memories of England, of Britain, than you do, purely because I've lived here one helluva lot longer, which is not racist, merely a common sense observation, whether it irks you or not...and I recall a time very different from now, when TRUE democracy abounded, and with that democracy went respect. And if something was terribly wrong, then society, as a majority, spoke out against it. We no longer do that..and in becoming apathtic due to the stress of political correctness gone mad, we have lost something very dear to the shores of this land.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:48 AM

And apparently, there are now 400,000 people who've signed the Facebook page calling for this march to be banned, so instead of carrying on your campaign against me, may I politely suggest you get your arse over to Facebook and deal with 400,000 people who you'd obviously deem racist as well, I presume.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:07 AM

I haven't read every single post on this thread but it would have been a disgrace for this protest to take place in this country full stop, but to decide to do it in Wootton Bassett is particularly insensitive. If anyone wishes to highlight the plight of Muslims in Afghanistan globally then there are plenty of places in the world that they can go!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:10 AM

"Can you please not tell the same old lies about me harrassing the BBC staff, even though, again, you do it to paint me in the worst light. The BBC accused me of that, when it didn't actually happen at all..."

Well, given it's your word against theirs (and you did once post the message they sent), and given your track record, I know who I'm inclined to believe. Others, of course, can make up their own minds.

"Strange how three little letters reveal so much about a person."

Well, 'Liz', I for one am rather inspired by an incident a few months ago. A 15 year old girl posted on Mudcat to counter some of your more hysterical claims about "the youth of today" by talking about the experiences of herself and her friends. You insisted on putting quote marks around her name to imply that you didn't believe that she was who she said she was, even though she asked you repeatedly to stop doing it (and she was quite upset by it, because she put a lot of consideration into her very well-articulated posts). If you would not acknowledge her right to be addressed with respect (and several Mudcatters called you on your bullying, patronising behaviour at the time), why should you be treated any differently? Oh that's right - it's one rule for 'Liz', another for anyone else.

Besides, as D el G pointed out earlier, Lizzie isn't even your real name, which makes the situation all the more ridiculous.

"As I said, you and you're gang have repeatedly tried to ban me from here, let alone succeeding with the BBC."

This is patently not true - you have only ever been banned for your own behaviour. And you WERE banned from Mudcat on a couple of occasions because you managed to piss Joe Offer off through doing things like creating multiple identities so that you could agree with yourself.


"Freedom for all, apart from those you don't like..."

Irony...like silvery and goldy, innit, 'Liz'? Isn't that exactly your approach to free speech? See, the thing you need to understand is that your right to express your opinion is fine; but if other people respond, disagree with you, and disassemble your arguments with logic and evidence, they are not removing your right to free speech; they are simply disagreeing with you. You appear to believe that free speech includes the freedom not to be challenged in your (utterly wrong-headed) beliefs. I'm afraid you are mistaken.



Ooh, another jewel - "political correctness gone mad"! And I missed this one earlier: "people who loathe this country, living here, taking advantage of all they can" - would that be "coming over here and taking all our jobs", or is this a reference to your bog-standard benefit scroungers? Which right-wing, Norman Tebbit-esque cliche were you actually employing in this instance? just for clarification, you understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:31 AM

I have very different memories of England, of Britain, than you do, purely because I've lived here one helluva lot longer, which is not racist, merely a common sense observation, whether it irks you or not...and I recall a time very different from now, when TRUE democracy abounded, and with that democracy went respect.

Well, funnily enough, I have lived here 57 years now and I don't remember any chocolate box cottages with roses in the garden either. I remember lots of joy, fun and freedom. I remember hot summers and cold winters. I remember a time very different from now and one very similar in some ways. I also remember miners strikes. The demonisation of trade unions. The institutionalised racism in all walks of life.

Is it any better now? No better or worse for me. Then I had my youth, now I have my family. Then I had to put up with being a 'Fucking Polak'. Now I don't. Then I had the Beano to make me laugh. Now I have Mudcat:-)

Just a common sense observation...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:31 AM

And apparently, there are now 400,000 people who've signed the Facebook page calling for this march to be banned, so instead of carrying on your campaign against me, may I politely suggest you get your arse over to Facebook and deal with 400,000 people who you'd obviously deem racist as well, I presume.

Guess what? The discussion part of thread has been closed because people have been making racist comments on it!

You couldn't make it up really.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 09:11 AM

Chocolate box images, Dave?

Why yes, there were...and still are thousands of them in this beautiful country.

Joan took umbridge at me for saying that I recalled cricket matches being played on village greens, whilst the church bells rang out in the background. There were many village greens where I lived, many that I visited, as Dad would always take us out for a drive every Sunday afternoon, and we'd stop off at a pub somewhere, that allowed children in, have a sandwich and a glass of orange squash...

My Dad adored this country, and it was his dream to one day be able to travel through every village and town in it. He fought for it, his friends died for it....but the Britain of today, in some parts, would be unrecognizable to him, because of the filth, the graffiti, the simmering tensions, the poverty and the total lack of care of our surroundings that so many now seem to have. The out of town towns, the vast amount of cars, traffic etc...the stress in so many places...

Show of Hands, of course, have written many songs about what's happening here, as I'm sure you all know, being their new fans.

The Miner's Strike filled me with horror, as the hatred it unleashed has never gone away, and whilst I understand the horrors it caused to those communities, time has to move on, hatreds have to be laid to rest, but they never were, were they?...Class War, the Extreme Left, the division, those who've fought so hard TO divide...and the hatred now thrown at Middle England, whoever they may be.....

My country has been deliberately dumbed down and divided...and it has been almost taken over by a brigade of bullying types who shout you down if you dare to shout out that many things are wrong, as can be seen in here...Mob Rule now replaces conversation...and some people are subjected to highly irrational lambasting, purely for having the guts to come out from the crowd and tell The Emperor that he has n clothes on.

Once he wore clothes made from Honour, Truth and Integrity, which shone in the midday sun, reflecting the warm and contented people of his land...

But now his clothes are dull, being made from Arrogance, Ignorance and Greed, and the only reflection they give off is the Emperor's face, for he sees no-one but himself, no longer cares about his country or her people...

And if anyone dares to stand out from the crowd and call out to him, they are immediately set upon by his henchmen, who drown out their voice with cries of "You RACIST Bastard!"

Luckily, I still have clothes made from Honour, Truth and Integrity, which protect me from all the viciousness that gets thrown at me, in the name of Folk Against Facism...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 09:16 AM

"A 15 year old girl posted on Mudcat to counter some of your more hysterical claims about "the youth of today" by talking about the experiences of herself and her friends. You insisted on putting quote marks around her name to imply that you didn't believe that she was who she said she was, even though she asked you repeatedly to stop doing it (and she was quite upset by it, because she put a lot of consideration into her very well-articulated posts)."

Ah, 'Daisybell' you meam...

Strange, but 'Daisybell' sounded awfully like someone not too far away from those words above...which is why I kept the name in '''s.

That simple, really.

Lizzie is the name that all call me. Apart from two people, one of whom calls me Liz.

'Thank You'

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 09:21 AM

Wow...what a load of self-regarding, posturing old bollocks.

Just to be clear: nothing gets "thrown at you in the name of Folk Against Fascism" (note spelling). I, as an individual, representing no cause or voice but my own, have debated certain points with you and demonstrated that your arguments are factually incorrect and intellectually bereft. At which point you started throwing tantrums. So, all is as normal in Lisa 'Liz' World.

Lisa 'Liz' said: "Joan took umbridge at me for saying that I recalled cricket matches being played on village greens, whilst the church bells rang out in the background"

What I actually said, after a long, misty-eyed bout of whimsy about spitfires and cricket and church bells and village greens, was (and this was a thought that has since been echoed by many of your countrymen) the England you were trying to conjure up was a sentimental image that ony existed on biscuit tins and Hovis adverts, and it did not take into account the real, multicultural society that we live in. You responded (and this is the important bit) that I would have to have "England running through every part of me" to be able truly understand your vision. The implication being that, as I was not born here, I could never properly understand or appreciate England in the way that you could.

It was THIS statement that I told you was racist. It implies that people who were not born in England don't have a right to its heritage in the same way that people "with England running through every part of them" do. Would that be a matter of birth or of blood, by the way? It says that only native-born English people can understand and appreciate England properly.

You have since twisted this into the statement "I was told that to love the sight of cricket being played on village greens was to dream of an English idyll that no longer exists and therefore, it showed that I was racist."

Which was not what was ever said to you. And moreover, I think you know that. Aren't you bored of these arguments by now? Picking over statements that were made several years ago, pulling them out of context, and still trying to use them in sad little games of point-scoring? Because god knows I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 09:42 AM

There were many village greens where I lived, many that I visited, as Dad would always take us out for a drive every Sunday afternoon, and we'd stop off at a pub somewhere

Therein lies the rub, Bessy. You could afford a car. We couldn't. We didn't even have TV until I was 10 in 1963. When I first married we had no TV either, or telephone. While you can look at your past with the rose coloured glasses of privelege the vast majority of us look back at the reality. Don't get me wrong - I loved my childhood and upbringing. Even if it was amidst the dark satanic mills of t'north. It was a wonderful time, amongst ture friends, many of whom remain the same today. It was a past of discovery and getting the most out of every last experience. It also taught me the true value of England. Not that of the Village Green Preservation Society (Good song btw - Better by the Kinks than Ms Rusby in my opinion). The England, and note I do use England rather than Britain, that accepts and welcomes all peoples, races and, above all, allows changes to accomodate everyone.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 09:43 AM

"Strange, but 'Daisybell' sounded awfully like someone not too far away from those words above...which is why I kept the name in '''s."

Despite the fact that another Mudcatter actually spoke to her on the phone, and posted on the thread to say that she was real? No, you did it to be nasty and provoke her, Lisa/'Liz'. A 15 year old child. So why should anyone have any particular regard for how you wish to be addressed?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:18 AM

"Therein lies the rub, Bessy. You could afford a car. We couldn't. We didn't even have TV until I was 10 in 1963. When I first married we had no TV either, or telephone. While you can look at your past with the rose coloured glasses of privelege the vast majority of us look back at the reality."

Oh, come on, Dave, get real. My Dad never owned his house, throughout his entire life. When he died he didn't have enough to bury himself...and his children helped to pay his bills, towards the end of his life. We lived in a rented house, the same one from when I was 6 months to age 27, when I got married..it was an ordinary, small semi, nowt special at all....and we never had holidays abroad, or fancy this or that...hand me downs from my brother were often my clothes...

Yes, Dad had a car, but not until I was about 10 years old, so that'd be 1965...

Privilege?

Ha!   Every month he worried about paying the bills, all his life long...but he loved his ocuntry, loved the countryside, and in those days it was dirt cheap to run a car, as well you know...so it didn't cost much to go out, nor to have a drink and a sandwich once a week...



"Don't get me wrong - I loved my childhood and upbringing. Even if it was amidst the dark satanic mills of t'north. It was a wonderful time, amongst ture friends, many of whom remain the same today. It was a past of discovery and getting the most out of every last experience. It also taught me the true value of England. Not that of the Village Green Preservation Society (Good song btw - Better by the Kinks than Ms Rusby in my opinion). The England, and note I do use England rather than Britain, that accepts and welcomes all peoples, races and, above all, allows changes to accomodate everyone."

Exactly. But sometimes, changes come which aren't always for the better...and that's when the rose coloured glasses really are put on, by those who refuse to see with clear vision....

Try to make out I'm Mrs. Middle England, if you so choose, as others have done, but sadly, for them, I grew up in the wrong part of Pinner, not on Pinner Hill where the private roads and huge houses were, but down the bottom, where ordinary people struggled. Nowadays, of course, those houses go for crazy amounts, but my happiest memories were helping Dad in the garden, playing in the trees, picking the fruit from them..simple, free pleasures....

So yes, chocolate box England was all around and it still is, even oop north....and there's nowt wrong with admitting that..

It's like we've all been sprayed with Dozy Lotion, where none of us are allowed to remember England as she was, let alone talk about it...

Well, I was inside the day they crop sprayed my island to make people forget how it was...and I have never believed in NOT looking back, nor taking the best from the past into the future either...

I don't give a fuck that my country is now of many colours, because that has brought it's own enrichment...but I can't stand tribal hatreds, be they from Eastern Europe, the Middle East, or from White skinned Skinheads or Mods and Rockers...

I love this land, with every breath in my body and I will never, EVER give in to those who tell me that I can't be proud to be English, to be British, or that I am from a truly amazing country that has a history the rest of the world envies, even if some of them try to rub out that history and leave us only with the bad parts....We are a great country, and anyone who tries to undo that greatness......can shove off...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:29 AM

Joan, the thing you truly do NOT understand is that those memories, those visions DID exist. They are not from my imagination, they are REAL!

You were not living in England at that time, so they would not be in your memory.

I have no memories or ideas of how the USA was at that time, because I didn't live there...

When will you get over this problem and stop telling me that my memories, my childhood, my teenagehood, did not exist. I did not grow up in a multicultural part of the country. That is not a crime, it's just a fact, because er...like..er...that's where I grew up.

That does not make me racist you know, nor the hundreds of thousands of other people who still live in places that are not multicultural.

You live in an English village yourself, so how the fook can you tell me that chocolate box England doesn't exist, even to this day?

And as far as 'Daisybell' goes, how the fook do any of us know, for certain, who we're speaking to in here.

Let's get this straight though, if 'Daisybell' was your daughter, then I'm surprised you got a 15 year old girl to come into Mudcat to write to someone you believe is truly racist and deeply unpleasant...
I really did not believe that even you would stoop that low to get at me, but perhaps you did, who knows?

Don't forget, anyone can post as a Guest in here, absolutely ANYONE at all, so 'Guest Daisybell' could be er...anyone.

Yeesh! But hey, don't let it stop your campaign, eh....and...I was not unpleasant to 'Daisybell' either, merely telling her how lucky she was to attend an all girls school where she was obviously having such an incredibly 'spiffing' time....

And yes, I did care for Douglas Bader, who DID fly Spitfires, and no, he was NOT a part of my imaginative chocolate box racist memory, but a real person, who would run circles round you and your ilk for daring to tell him what his country was, or is, were he still alive.
And Sir Douglas is part of this nation's proud history...because there are few alive as brave as he was...An amazing man, from an amazing country.

So, put that in your Spiteful Pipe and smoke it, kid...and get off my back...

As I said, go over to your FAF page and start dealing with the 400,000 people who'd you'd deem racists for saying that they wanted that bloody march stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:33 AM

I love this land, with every breath in my body and I will never, EVER give in to those who tell me that I can't be proud to be English, to be British

And that has what bearing on the current discussion exactly? Smoke and mirrors, Betsy. Ever thought of taking up politics?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:37 AM

I will *not* give in to the temptation to make a cheap joke about Douglas Bader 'running circles', I will **NOT**........

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,old git
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:45 AM

Well said Lizzie. You have gained my respect. I think some people need to ask themselves what being British actually means to them. Some people were incredibly rude and arrogant towards you, they kept chipping away at your comments rather than admitting they were at fault. I do hope some members feel shame at this. One poster made a comment regarding Ruth over the weekend which she requested be removed, I am now inclined to agree with the comment in the light of her latest posts. Clarification from her would be nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:52 AM

Well done, Smedley. I would hope you would not make such comments. You would not have a leg to stand on...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:52 AM

"After the war he became an avid and skilled golfer, and also became involved in politics. He supported apartheid, and his associations with some on the extreme right of British politics led many to believe he was a closet extremist and racist himself."

The Briar Files: Featured Pipe Smoker: Douglas Bader

What interesting heroes you have Lizzie.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:56 AM

"I was not unpleasant to 'Daisybell' either, merely telling her how lucky she was to attend an all girls school where she was obviously having such an incredibly 'spiffing' time...."

It was exactly that sort of sneeriness that many people recognised as the sort of bullying you often claim to be the victim of yourself, Lisa 'Liz'. Daisy explained repeatedly that she goes to a state school. But because her real life experiences did not match the nightmare picture of growing up in present-day Britain that you were trying to paint, you sneered at her, patronised her, trivialised her views and accused her of being a liar and a fake. Several people on the thread were rather shocked by your attacks and defended her against you, and said how much they enjoyed the perspective that she shared.

"Let's get this straight though, if 'Daisybell' was your daughter, then I'm surprised you got a 15 year old girl to come into Mudcat to write to someone you believe is truly racist and deeply unpleasant..."

Daisy reads Mudcat from time to time, like many young people who are involved in the folk scene - why should she not have the right to respond when she sees someone attacking her whole generation as a bunch of feral, sexually promiscuous pissheads who are being ritually abused every day by their schools? She was furious, so she decided to respond. I told Joe Offer beforehand that she would be doing so, and he gave his approval. Who the hell are you to tell her she shouldn't?


"And as far as 'Daisybell' goes, how the fook do any of us know, for certain, who we're speaking to in here.

Don't forget, anyone can post as a Guest in here, absolutely ANYONE at all, so 'Guest Daisybell' could be er...anyone."

Well, unlike 99.9% of people on Mudcat, Daisy spoke to a Mudcat member on the phone who vouched for her identity. Joe Offer also checked her IP address, so he knew she was not simply a member posting under another name. But it will serve you to ignore this, as your nasty, bullying behaviour is then - what - justified?

You're right, Lisa 'Liz' - anyone can post as a Guest here. That's one of the reasons you got banned, remember? For repeatedly making up multiple identities for the purposes of provoking people and shit-stirring. You used to do it on the BBC board as well. Of course, there is fantastic irony in you getting into a high moral dudgeon and accusing a 15 year old girl, a new poster, of behaviour which you have persistently indulged in yourself.

Sadly, Daisy found her brief sojourn at Mudcat very unpleasant, thanks to you. It's a pity: she's very involved in the folk scene. She goes to festivals, ceilidhs, she has a boyfriend who is a morris dancer - she had a lot to contribute. But I shouldn't think she'll be back any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:00 AM

I was not unpleasant to 'Daisybell' either, merely telling her how lucky she was

And I am not unpleasant to Lizzie - despite her obscene language directed at me. I simply point out that her posts do not stand up to examination because they are often ill-researched and that she frequently threatens to leave Mudcat but never does. (Latest example just under two months ago and already posted).

And that she contradicts herself. Record so far - twenty minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:06 AM

Bader is not just a hero of Lizzie's Dave, just one she happened to know personally.
He is recognised as a national hero of WW2.
All heroes have feet of clay.
His were tin.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:20 AM

Bader had considerably more grit than many local councils have today!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:22 AM

I am inclined to agree about heroes.

I once met one of mine. A more unpleasant person I could not have wished to have met.

I make an exception as far as the folk world is concerned. Mostly wonderful people, musicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:26 PM

"You're right, Lisa 'Liz' - anyone can post as a Guest here. That's one of the reasons you got banned, remember? For repeatedly making up multiple identities for the purposes of provoking people and shit-stirring. You used to do it on the BBC board as well. Of course, there is fantastic irony in you getting into a high moral dudgeon and accusing a 15 year old girl, a new poster, of behaviour which you have persistently indulged in yourself."


No, it's not one of the reasons I got banned. I got banned because I wouldn't back down from the Traddies Witch Hunt.

What the hell is the matter with you, woman? WHERE did this paranoia about me come from?

I posted, and Joe knows this, under a few other names, when I was not allowed to post under my own. At no time did I try to 'disguise' my writing, nor did I *ever* use those guest names to be nasty to people, or abusive.

For fuck's sake, leave me alone. You are doing nothing but embarrassing yourself.

As for 'Daisybell'...again...this is all being blown totally out of proportion...and sorry, but it sounds like a complete set up to me. Go back and read those posts, I was not rude to 'Daisybell'. If you choose to read my words with a 'sneery' voice in your head,then they will come out sneery.

I gave Joe permission to read my PMs, he still has the permission, so he's read the ones from you, I'd presume. He also has my full permission, at all times, to read my replies.

You have turned this into some strange and weird internet game.

At no time, Joan, have I ever personally insulted your intelligence or your family, or been deeply personal, as you have to me. It was wrong of you, and your band of buddies, to reveal my name on the BBC, it went against every single one of their House Rules, what happened in their....That's why Diane was banned and you and Ralph were put into being watched at all times.

Do not come the holier than thou with me, because I have been way too insulted by you, even to the point where you threatened, here on Mudcat, to talk about Sam, to my then husband, during our divorce, when next you saw him at Sidmouth. How bloody weird is that?   I have never, ever done anything, or said anything like that to you or about you.

I suggest you see someone about this problem of yours, because it IS becoming one big problem in your life.   'Daisybell' is free to read whatever she wants, I have never stopped her, nor said anything to stop her....

Get over it, Joan, because this insatiable hatred of me is colouring your life in bad colours.

You have taken over Sidmouth, you've got Show of Hands eating out of your hands, you've done all sorts of things to 'have one up on me'....enjoy it, m'dear...but remember, as I told you in a PM, you wil never be the new 'Diane' to me, because Diane and I have always had a strange 'connection' that is fuelled by humour and a grudging respect for one another...It's why I never go beserk at her but meet her with humour, no matter what she's says....well,....apart from the occasional time of course...but Diane is a one off and can never be copied, so accept that...and move on with your life.

Better still, go and watch a Show of Hands concert...and then you might start to be a nicer person.


"What interesting heroes you have Lizzie."

Not really, Dave. Bader was a hero for many people. Of course, what you have written above there, about him, I could also write about you, when you are dead and gone....if I wanted to.

Douglas Bader had an arrogance about him, he had to, it is what got him to survive, but if you became his friend, then he was a Sweetiepie.

You will absolutely stop at nothing, will you...and again, as with Joan (Ruth) all you do is show others how obsessive you are.

May I politely suggest that perhaps the two of you book a double appointment with someone who can get you both to move on......it might work out cheaper..

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:33 PM

386 posts all about this protest that will not happen.

How many of these posts are purely grown up mudcatters slagging each other off? 90% or higher?

Get a grip children!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:35 PM

Well, I did ask for this thread to be closed, Villan, but got shouted down for it....so...I er...asked for this thread to be left open, but er...got shouted down for it....

I'll leave it up to Joe, but quite honestly, I think it's now got so insane that it's way outrun its course...


Joe's decision...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:55 PM

Well, I did ask for this thread to be closed, Villan, but got shouted down for it....so...I er...asked for this thread to be left open, but er...got shouted down for it....

And once again you freely mis-represent what happened.

Between asking for the thread to be closed and asking for it to be opened there was precisly one message - so you were not shouted down for asking for it to be closed. There was no comment after you asked for it to be kept open either.

There was a comment posted by me saying changing your mind in the space of twenty minutes was a new record for you. This was factually accurate and contained details of the posts and their timings.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:57 PM

This would make more sense.

Well, I did ask for this thread to be closed, Villan, but got shouted down for it....so...I er...asked for this thread to be left open, but er...got shouted down for it....

And once again you freely mis-represent what happened.

Between asking for the thread to be closed and asking for it to be opened there was precisly one message - so you were not shouted down for asking for it to be closed. There was no comment after you asked for it to be kept open either.

There was a comment posted by me saying changing your mind in the space of twenty minutes was a new record for you. This was factually accurate and contained details of the posts and their timings.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:01 PM

Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:16 PM

PM him, Lizzie - It's more direct.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:29 PM

"You have taken over Sidmouth, you've got Show of Hands eating out of your hands, you've done all sorts of things to 'have one up on me'...."

That's right,Lizzie. Despite the fact that I have been working in folk for 20 years, I have engineered my entire career just to get at you. What a glorious mix of self-aggrandisement and delusion.

"Go back and read those posts, I was not rude to 'Daisybell'."

Well, don't take my word for it - here is what other Mudcatters had to say:

"Lizzie you want everyone to respect your point of view and spurious rantings but the minute a teenager comes on you manage to sneer at them and patronise them."

"Read your attacks on a fellow Mudcatter's daughter and then tell me you don't understand why you have been hounded in what you call a witch hunt... You really should be ashamed of yourself."

"i am also with you on lizzies responses to daisybell.
it takes courage to stand up to you lot and fight your corner."

"lizzie, i find your response to the anonimity of daisy and her mum outragous and frankly worrying."

"I don't understand why a grown woman would be so resentful of a child whose only crime seems to be that she is happy and successful. Daisybell and Mom - I too salute your patience and humor. Congratulations to both of you for a job well done."

"I too am greatly exercised as to why Lizzie WILL persist in putting quotes around this young woman's name, when she has been told repeatedly that it is regarded as disagreeable and unacceptable. WHY, Lizzie? What good do you think it does you & your cause to be so persistently, ostentatiously, contrarily, & UNNECESSARILY offensive?"

"Throughout we have seen nothing but calm reasoned statements from Daisybell and her mother, against overwhelming antagonism."



One of the reasons you were banned from Mudcat on at least one occasion was because you kept creating alternative identities for yourself, when you were specifically told that it contravened the posting rules. The BBC actually asked for other contributors to not respond to you, but to let a Mod know, every time they spotted one of your alternative identities.


Just to set the record straight: I did NOT reveal your name on the BBC messageboard.

I did NOT threaten to tell your husband about your internet affair. Why would I need to? You'd already splashed it (rather seedily and messily) all over every single folk website - butwhen you split, I DID say I might buy him a drink and congratulate him on a lucky escape.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:40 PM

So bored of this cat-fighting now. It's destructive, and no one is going to win. Mudcat isn't for this.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:44 PM

Joe Offer said Dick Miles posted as a guest, and eventually got caught.
thats the first I know about it,
Please note , Dick has not posted regularly or irregularly, as a guest, he posts/posted under Captain Birdseye, and latterly under Good Soldier Schweik.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:50 PM

GSS, I think Joe was saying that you, when you posted while not logged in, got caught copy-pasting something that was longer than the allowed copy-paste one-screen amount. Not that you got caught posting as a guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:51 PM

oh my, all these misty bucolic reminiscences have left me with the Adjusters' theme and Dvorak's New World Symphony competing for supremacy in my head. However I also feel the need for an anti-emetic, and fast.

Liz, I am shocked that you would think only one person has feelings toward you so deep and so strong as to motivate them to call you 'Liz'

I can count several, not including me.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:12 PM

Dambusters' Theme

Not Adjusters...

Blackberry auto completion and the motions of the 17:55 Cardiff to Padding are conspiring against me.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:15 PM

STOP

You are pulling each other apart and giving Mudcat a bad name to go with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:23 PM

I have asked Joe to close this. And 400 seems an appropriate point.