Origin: John Cherokee

Subject: RE: Origin: John Cherokee
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:25 AM

Gibb; as to your "pull on the Rest" during Essequibo River question...
I seem to recall Tim Reilly(Mystic Seaport)being the first person I ever heard doing this. As a matter of fact he invested a considerable amount of time explaining to me how it worked. AS to whether or not he originated it I don't know, but I'v been present on at least 3 occasions when he did it on the Morgan whilst Stan was there, and he got no correction from Stan. And Stan was not bashful about telling someone they're doing it wrong.

Subject: RE: Origin: John Cherokee
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:28 PM

That's great info about Tim Reilly, Marc! Thanks.

I'm not sure what you're meaning to say, however, about Stan Hugill being there and not saying anything. Does this suggest something to you...is it evidence of something? One can only assume you are suggesting that this style of doing it got tacit "approval" from Hugill (< a seal of quality and/or authenticity??). But that would contradict a lot of other things, so I don't get it.

I also don't know what you mean by Tim "invested a considerable amount of time explaining to me how it worked." Do you mean how to pull to it? How much time would that take? Did he say you should pull during the silence (which is what people were doing)? Why would there be a need to explain—aren't halyard chanties pretty self-explanatory? I can't think of any at the moment that have the crew pulling on a "rest." And is the need to take lots of time to explain it indicative of something...perhaps that it *was* unorthodox? How does this fit in with the "Stan didn't correct it" observation?

Subject: RE: Origin: John Cherokee
From: JWB
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 09:07 PM

The reference to a northeastern area of the continent (Mirimichi/Miramashee) makes me think that a Downeast -- Maine -- or Bluenose -- Nova Scotia -- chanteyman was responsible for that verse, at least. And it does rhyme with "Cherokee".

I wouldn't think too hard about meaning, Jon: there's a good chance the singer from whom the collectors gathered the song spent a long voyage with a particular chanteyman whose version imprinted itself upon his young mind. Chances are that chanteyman was, indeed, no ethnologist but had a keen ear for an entertaining story and solid rhymes.

Subject: RE: Origin: John Cherokee
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:46 AM

"considerable amount of time" Have you ever had a conversation with Tim Reilly? It wasn't like it took him hours to explain it to me, but he can take a circuitous route to make a point. When I started working at the Seaport my back ground in 19th century music was primarily through my experience in Fife and Drum. I played marches, and I approached singing chanteys just like I was playing a march. Still do I suppose? So that hesitation in the melody with a pull on the rest felt awkward to me. Later that day while having a beverage, I asked… "What were you doing, where does that come from"? To paraphrase his response," these are African rhythms not European not every action needs to fall on a word; don't you march to syncopated Rhythms?" It didn't feel natural to me those 25-30 years ago, but I guess I'v gotten used to it.

As for Stan's "tacit approval". That's exactly what I interpreted. I've seen Tim do that chantey a few times whilst Stan was on board, with never a raise of an eyebrow. I'v seen Stan stop folks in the middle of their performance to tell them they weren't doing it right, or those aren't the right words. As if there are right words. Maybe he had already had that talk with Tim or maybe he just liked him, but he did not critique his choice of rhythm. I don't recall hearing Stan sing it himself though.

As for John Cherokee, I don't remember ever hearing Stan sing it. But it's been my perception that most Europeans tend to sing the more square rhythm, with the 1st syllable of Cher-o-kee landing on the 2nd beat. While most American tend to sing it with that Syllable starting on the 2nd half of the 2nd beat, or the and of 2. And I would also agree with the other observations that the grunt appears to have started in the Pacific North West.

Subject: RE: Origin: John Cherokee
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:03 PM

Shipbuilding started in the Miramichi Bay area in 1773, and continued until steel-hulled ships took over. It was also an inportant shipping point for lumber and salmon. Timber for the British Navy (masts, etc.,) was obtained there.

Many 19th C. seamen would have heard the name.

The modern town of Miramichi was formed from former Newcastle and Chatham. The name in old songs referred to the River and Bay.

Subject: RE: Origin: John Cherokee
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 02:59 PM

Considering that the only source for "Miramichi" is Hugill..whose method of presentation was to give any verses he wanted, including many he obviously composed at the time of writing, it hardly seems like a significant detail. Moreover, Hugill seems to have had certain "pet" subjects that he reiterates, like, say, drinking pisco. Why? Probably because these things were simply of interest to him (and interesting for the reader, I think). I'd guess Miramichi was one.

If his informant, Harding, was the one who sang "Miramichi," that is pretty interesting! But besides the point noted, above, that it is simply a convenient rhyming word: One of the cotton-stowing versions of "Hieland Laddie" documented in 19th c. includes references to both Alabama (Mobile) and Miramichi—perhaps setting a precedent for them to be combined in the song.

Subject: RE: Origin: John Cherokee
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:44 PM

Interesting! My post of 4 years ago has me remembering Stan singing this, and now I have no recollection of that. I hope this doesn't continue to happen. I'm not smart enough to forget too much.

Subject: RE: Origin: John Cherokee
From: JWB
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:44 PM

At the risk of thread-creep, I learned a couple of verses to Donkey Riding from Stan's singing, and both are NE North America-related, Mirimichi and Quebec being right around the corner from each other, nautically:

Was ye ever in Quebec, launching timber on the deck, where you break your bleeding neck, riding on a donkey?

Was ye ever in Mirimichi, where ye ties up to a tree, and the skeeters do bite we, riding...?

So Stan did seem to have a proclivity for the word/place.

Subject: RE: Origin: John Cherokee
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:32 PM

You mean he never sang the "unprintable" words to that one?

Disappointing.