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Why aren't the Corries taken seriously

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Don Meixner 09 Apr 99 - 05:39 PM
Rick Fielding 09 Apr 99 - 07:14 PM
SeanM 09 Apr 99 - 07:59 PM
DonMeixner 09 Apr 99 - 08:25 PM
colin j stewart 09 Apr 99 - 09:06 PM
DonMeixner 09 Apr 99 - 09:36 PM
Rick Fielding 09 Apr 99 - 11:03 PM
DonMeixner 09 Apr 99 - 11:06 PM
Alex 09 Apr 99 - 11:41 PM
Rick Fielding 10 Apr 99 - 12:29 AM
10 Apr 99 - 02:18 AM
The Shambles 10 Apr 99 - 07:26 AM
murray@mpce.mq.edu.au 10 Apr 99 - 08:41 AM
AlistairUK 10 Apr 99 - 10:14 AM
Lucius 10 Apr 99 - 10:14 AM
Rick Fielding 10 Apr 99 - 02:43 PM
Mo 10 Apr 99 - 04:03 PM
Penny 10 Apr 99 - 04:39 PM
katlaughing 10 Apr 99 - 09:44 PM
DonMeixner 10 Apr 99 - 11:53 PM
Tucker 11 Apr 99 - 11:16 AM
Pete M 11 Apr 99 - 11:36 PM
Don Meixner 11 Apr 99 - 11:56 PM
Rick Fielding 12 Apr 99 - 02:29 AM
DonMeixner 12 Apr 99 - 07:20 AM
Steve Parkes 12 Apr 99 - 07:56 AM
AndyG 12 Apr 99 - 08:36 AM
John Nolan 12 Apr 99 - 08:34 PM
katlaughing 12 Apr 99 - 11:42 PM
Don Meixner 13 Apr 99 - 01:09 AM
Pete M 13 Apr 99 - 01:27 AM
Steve Parkes 13 Apr 99 - 03:39 AM
BK 13 Apr 99 - 09:17 PM
Steve Parkes 14 Apr 99 - 03:28 AM
Ewan McV (inactive) 14 Apr 99 - 06:32 PM
BK 14 Apr 99 - 09:33 PM
skw@worldmusic.de 15 Apr 99 - 03:48 AM
The Shambles 15 Apr 99 - 01:27 PM
Ewan McV (inactive) 15 Apr 99 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,Nick 04 Mar 00 - 09:53 AM
Bud Savoie 04 Mar 00 - 10:00 AM
Jon Freeman 04 Mar 00 - 10:33 AM
DonMeixner 04 Mar 00 - 01:55 PM
Metchosin 04 Mar 00 - 03:01 PM
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Subject: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Don Meixner
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 05:39 PM

SPOILER WARNING! THIS MAY OFFEND SOME PEOPLE.

Rick,

I have a theory about why the Corries weren't/aren't taken seriously. Folk Music snobbery. Self appointed purist cops who feel that it better have bad diction and barely understood lyrics or it ain't folk music, peat ash in the bottom of the bottle or it ain't Scotch.

The are/were primarily vocalists. Although the late Roy Williamson was a fine musician, listen to what goes on in the background of No Man's Land, there work was a vocal history lesson. They were singing an oral tradition and telling the tale of Scotland at the same time.

There is a large contingent of people out there who views Celtic Music as strictly instrumental or if vocal, unaccompnaied. What tripe. There are great bands out there like the Battlefield Band, Silly Wizard, De Dannan, The Tannahill Weavers. But none of them are as near purely vocal as the Corries.

The Corries came about around the same time as the Clancy Bros and Tommy Makem ( also roundly ridiculed in Mudcat by some.) And if they were a little commercial I am not concerned. Without the Clancys and The Corries much of the Irish and Scottish music would either have been very late in coming to the U.S. or nevermade it here at all.

If I hadn't read of Tom Clancy's enjoyment of Joe Heany's singing, I probably would never have listened to Joe or known what Sean Nos singing was.

My first introduction to good vocal harmony was The Corrie Folk Trio and Paddie Bell. Listen to their version of The Jug of Punch from Their first Electra album to see what I mean. Listen the Corries do Jacobites By Name then Compare it Clan Na Gael's or Silly Wizard's (I think) and you'll find no comparison. Blazing instrumentality and mediocre voices are just that. But The Corries had the potential for both solid instruments and very fine vocals.

Ultimately their job was to entertain which they did quite well. Mugg to the crowd sing crowd pleasers and sing alongs, dress well and be consistent. Loch Lomond was something I heard my Mom sing and it was justa chestnut till I heard Roy Williamson do it on video. It became a new song to me and now its in my rep. Sing it with Fire In The Glen and its magic.

I am now called to dinner so my rant is done. I hope we are all still pals and I can be in your various gangs on your various playgrounds. If I am a fan boy geek it is only in regards to The Corries and Jack Kirby, King of Comics. Later all.

Don


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 07:14 PM

Don, thanks for the feedback. Mentioned it to a trad friend the other day and she said "cause they wrote a lot of new lyrics to old songs" . That seems to be a big issue here, but boy, an awful lot of folks seem to have done the same thing. Sometimes it seems to me that if you're one of the "good guys/gals" like MacColl or Ritchie or Woody, nobody bats an eye. But folks who aren't part of a "particular" scene get flack. I know I would not have heard the McPeakes, had I not first heard the Clancys, and though I love much traditional Scottish music, I certainly appreciate what the Corries did. I know a well thought out arrangement when I hear one.


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: SeanM
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 07:59 PM

Not necessarily the Corries, but I'll back you up on the Clancys... I especially love to hear people claim that they've 'ruined' songs by adding lyrics. In regards to the rebel songs, this is an especially humorous attack, as at least two of the brothers were in the IRA, and several family members have been involved in the 'troubles' at some point or another. How much more authentic can ya get? Sad to say, I've yet to really latch on to the more modern folkies, and haven't developed the deep appreciation of Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie that seem to run through most folkies... guess I'm stuck with the music of a while ago...

M


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: DonMeixner
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 08:25 PM

Rick and Sean,

This all sorta returns to the Pete Seegar/pseudonymn thread that I enjoyed so much. Yes, The Corries and The Clancy's added lyrics and omitted some and refered to other sources frequently. Listen to Battlefield Band do MacPhersons Rant and to The Corries and The Clancy's version in turn. Is one better than another? I like them all. I heard The Clancy's first as Mac Pherson's Farewell. It's really a diferent song. As if it's a diferent Mac with the same fate. Battlefield Band does an amalgm of both versions. This the folk process plain and simple. Neither right nor wrong, just diferent. But look in their ass't songbooks or on the records and you'll always see proper identification of the sources for the songs. Johnny Lad appears to me to have been a satiracal broadside. The Corries would update the song to suit the times, more folk process at work and in keeping with the tradition of the style of the song.

A good friend of mine complains when lyrics are "Englished Up" from the old Gaelic. He says you lose the flavor of the song. I'm from Central new York with a CNY accent and I think its pretentious as hell to sing a song in a language I don't know with an accent I don't have ro an audience that won't understand what I'm doing any better than I. That shouldn't stop me from singing a song. You can English Up Cam Y'e O'er From France just enough for my Mom to understand it and not lose the flavor of the song.

Sean I know what you mean, in the 60's I was always invited to partys but I had to promise to my Trad Scotts and Irish records at home. I didn't date much.

Don


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: colin j stewart
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 09:06 PM

Good point, well presented and argued...but no! At 33 I've played music since 8 years old. I won the ulster championships on the tin whistle at 17 and am now an accomplised flute/whistle player. I have also fronted several groups on guitar and leading focals. My first love in life is Irish folk & traditional music. Tell me the difference between Paul Bardy's early folk singing and that of the Corries....Its a difference in class. Folk music or even traditional music must change as time goes on.Young players become older players in time, but have the experience not only of folk or traditional music but outside influences of Rock, pop, jazz whatever. The trick, as our ancestors have done is moving it on to the next generation, but these days, in a way that the next generation will find exciting and uplifting and thus want to learn it. Would the corries inspire this...no..but did the Bothy Band, Moving Hearts, Paul Brady, Mary Bergin, De Dennan , Matt Molloy , Davy Spillane not inspire it....Believe me I've been their, my father sitting in the corner playing and singing to the Dubliners and people like the Corries did bugger all to inspire me, rather it put me off even going near folk or traditional music.! The corries to this day are crap and don't try to convine me in any way shape or form that they were anything else...they just jumped on a bann-wagon and ripped the backside out of it for commercial reasons. Music is a gift to pass on, but when you here people like the Corries it makes you cringe when you try to pass Folk or Tradional music on when it souds like crap. Folk music is what Dick Gaughan sings, modern people and modern problems. Who wants to sing about hunting herring and cobblers days, catch yourself on. Sorry for the strong views..but it's time to move on. Sorry for the strong views..give me a shout..Colin Stewart, Ballygally, Ireland..e-mail;

colinstewart@callnetuk.com

Slainte

Colin Stewart


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: DonMeixner
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 09:36 PM

Colin,

I agree with everything you said except leaving the Corries and The Dubliners off your list. The didn't inspire you but they sure did me. With out Luke Kelly I never would have heard of Pecker Dunn. I'm not asking anyone to like The Corries, just don't discount them for the effect they had helping to bring trad Scotts music to a new level of visability (hearability) where others could pick it up and move on with it.

Anne Byrne sings Willie O' Winsbury very sweetly But Dick Gaughan SINGS it. Mary Black sing Men o' Worth very nicely but Archie Fisher makes me believe he knows what he is talkin about.

Do you mean Paul Brady, once of "The Johnstons" good singer but he didn't particularly blow my skirt. But the Johnstons did. They introduced me to Ewan Macoll in 1967.

Folk music is about history and history is about Hunting Herring and Cobbling, It's about men in arms and women taking a cannon over when husbands fall in battle. Folk music is about new people coming from Ireland to take jobs in New York that no self respecting New Yorker would touch. Folk music is about Miners going up in flames because the owners wouldn't put in gas vents. And children drowning in a sea of mud. Folk music is about people living on streets in every major city in the world. Its about eligance and as well as the tawdry side of life.

Folk music also very traditional as well as very new. We must remember that its not the song thats the tradition but the singing of the song is where the tradition lies.

We will never agree on this because we are arguing who has better taste and you know you can't win that kind of arguement.

Best regards to a good compadre .

Don Meixner


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 11:03 PM

Wow! Comparing the "Corries" and the "Dubliners" as if their musical skills and approach were similar. Gotta get my head around that one before I venture an opinion guys. Thanks for the feedback.


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: DonMeixner
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 11:06 PM

It did seem apples and oranges to mr too.

Don


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Alex
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 11:41 PM

Without the Corries and bands like the Dubliners leading the charge in the early sixties, there wouldn't be a place for today's generation (like Dick Gaughan - a marvelous performer) to play. Only saw the Dubs once (had a great time) but I went to many Corries shows and was always entertained and left feeling good. They were corny at times but no more so than our own beloved Art Thieme. They had their own style and tended to play the larger theaters rather that the folk clubs, but I'd rather spend an evening with the Corries than sit in an English folk club listening to some conceited bore with one finger in his ear and the other up his ass sing 843 verses of "Robin Hood", mainly through his nose, no matter how authentic it was.. The Corries did a great deal to keep the Scottish folk revival going through the difficult 70's and deserve the respect of all folkies.


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Apr 99 - 12:29 AM

Eegad! Over the last 30 years, I've enjoyed the "Corries AND countless trad singers (both with and without occupied fingers.) I guess I'm not discriminating enough in some folk areas. Fortunately I discriminate like hell in other areas. Don't get me started on banal lyricists, folks who won't learn proper "F" chords, and SOME (only some) singer-songwriters, who perform their diary-entries at open stages.

It doesn't matter however, I've just been put in my place where it REALLY counts. Five minutes ago Heather appeared at the door and said "If your talking about Scottish music, don't forget to mention Andy Stewart!! (and she doesn't mean Andy M Stewart) Where do I start? Colin, can I introduce her to your Dad? I think I'll go listen to a Dick Gaughin tape.


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From:
Date: 10 Apr 99 - 02:18 AM

Where do I begin? I have been into folk music since 1961 ( well really since 1949, mom told me that my first song sung was mule skinner blues.....still like it, by and by). Look folks, if someone varies on a rendition what harm is there? I love the Clancy Brothers, Corries and certainly Andy M. Stewart, hell, I can even handle the mistreatment Peter, Paul and Mary did to " Rising of the Moon". No one sings a song the same. A mother singing a lullaby to her babe may not know the same words her mother sang to her but the baby sleeps anyway. In regards to the younger person who spoke of the music having to grow, well I agree laddie,but eventually as you age you will appreciate the older version. In the meantime, have fun with it. I first heard "Wild Mountain Thyme" by the Byrds. I still like it but I like the traditional version better. Had I not heard the Byrds version I may never had heard the song at all. Please don't get locked into a mind set. Our first music came from our mouths and banging on things. We're stilling doing it the same way. Our folk music will survive, let's not destroy it by being to damn purist.


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Apr 99 - 07:26 AM

Great stuff

I think that there is a link between the Corries and the Dubliners. It is one of the period of which they were/are playing and the fact that in that time they both had a degree of commercial sucess.

Which is probably the main reason why the Corries are not "taken seriously". at least on the UK side of the pond. Here to 'suceed' in producing folk music that is popular is probably the worst possible crime.

The same can also be said for Ralph McTell, who despite still producing great songs and being one of the best 'Ragtime' and blues guitar players I have seen, has never been forgiven, by some for the sucess of 'Streets Of London.


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au
Date: 10 Apr 99 - 08:41 AM

I am reminded of the story Buell Kazee told in some interview. He was making some records for the "hillbilly" line of some company and he was told he was not country enough. They requested that he use sloppier pronounciation and grammer. (It seems he did, because he did make the records--I for one am glad.)

Murray


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: AlistairUK
Date: 10 Apr 99 - 10:14 AM

You know, i'm thirty three. I started singing in clubs when I was 17 or so. Why? cos I'd been listening to The Dubs, The Clancys ( Four Green Fields has been a staple of mine for years and it still sends a shiver down my spine when I hear it), Pentangle, Steeleye, Simon and Garfunkle and the Corries. Then I started getting into the other musicians such as June Tabor, Dick gaughan, the Watersons ad nauseum or etc or whatever. Then I started being a folk snob and saying that the Corries and The Clancys where crap, then I grew up. This is folk music people ( folk= people) it means getting down a few jars and laughing crying, complainin', listening to a few tunes and maybe having a bit of a bop. Where does anyone get off being so damned precious. Yeah the history and background of songs is cool, and good to know, it's interesting. But it ain't the history that makes the song, or who has the right version..it's the feeling that you put into it. I have seen some blinding singers who have stuck their all into a set one night, and another time have been crap, why? Because they didn't feel like it that night or they were tired of that particular song. The Corries et al. were primarily people who sang songs to entertain folks (us)and they did it damn well.


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Lucius
Date: 10 Apr 99 - 10:14 AM

I have to agree in principle, my first encounter with "folk" music was that of the Kingston Trio and the Brothers Four.

Just to cast a broader net, why isn't Michael Flatelry (sp?) taken seriously. I don't think of myself as an elitist, but I'm revolted by what Riverdance is passing off as irish step dance. Still, people are learning step dancing like never before.


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Apr 99 - 02:43 PM

"riverdance" is a Broadway style show, meant to appeal to a middle of the road audience who will now include the soundtrack album with the rest of their collection of Sinatra, Streisand, Celine Dion etc. Nothin' wrong with that. They're not folkies and never will be....BUT maybe 1 out of a thousand will like it so much they might go to an Irish pub for the first time and hear a "Clancy-Dub" band singing "Black Velvet Band" and that might cause 'em to buy a Chieftans album, which might lead to..........before you know it, we got us a "Folkie", who then might accidently find the "mudcat", and be totally perplexed at who the "Corries" are, and why they aren't taken seriously. It doesn't matter. By then we've got em hooked!!

P.S. If it weren't for "Riverdance", I'd never have believed that Irish step-dancers could float so long and so high in the air! (do I have to say "grin" now?)


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Mo
Date: 10 Apr 99 - 04:03 PM

Bitchy comment this - but Michael Flately takes himself so seriously it isn't really necessary for anyone else to! (Miaow!) As for The Corries et al - maybe they just aren't "in" at the moment. It wasn't cool to say you liked ABBA in the 80's, now their music has been re-assessed and it's trendy to like them again. What goes around comes around, so it might be cool to like the Corries again soon. Certainly they seem to have been an influence on a good many people in the 'Cat - including me.

Mo


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Penny
Date: 10 Apr 99 - 04:39 PM

A year ago (or was it two?) the BBC trailled Michael Flatley's program with the announcement "This Easter, Michael Flatley IS the Lord of the Dance!" or something very similar. But not for long.


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Apr 99 - 09:44 PM

Well here goes. I love dancing, esp. large groups correographed in unison. I don't care if it is trad or not. I loved watching the Gold Diggers on the Dean Martin show.

I know Flatley's dancing is not true trad. I think a great many people do, including himself. I, too, think he is arrogant etc., but I happened to catch part of an interview of him and he freely admits that he didn't like what he considered the confines of what his teachers taught and that he felt the urge to create his own combo. So, in a way, he is doing the "tradional thing" as it is always changing, etc.

He also worked hard to get where he is, just as a lot of us have. I agree that because of his program, perhaps somebody will be attracted to learn about the 'real" stuff and then there will be no holding them back.

I admire him just for being that athletic at his age! And, to do what he does, in presenting those shows, he would have to have a pretty good opinion of himself and his abilities.

katlaughing of varied tastes


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: DonMeixner
Date: 10 Apr 99 - 11:53 PM

Hello All,

When I started this thread I was hoping for opinions. I guess I got a few. Including some vitriol. Thank you all who see my point so clearly. Thank you all as well who disagree but stand and debate without malice. That I like and appreciate The Corries is enough for me. Its most grand that some of you do as well. And its just fine if you don't think they are you various cups of tea. This and the related threads of Pete Seegar's Pseudonym, Lock Tay, and Stroke Folks have fascinated me greatly and I appreciate the discussion.

Warmest Regards

Don Meixner


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Tucker
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 11:16 AM

anytime Don


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Pete M
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 11:36 PM

Well Don to be truthful I wasn't quite sure why you had started this thread, but I suppose some of the responses have provided the answer. Certainly in folk music there is as wide a range of styles and abilities as in any other field of human endeavour, and as wide a range of commercial success and popular acclaim. One thing I think is certain, there is no correlation between commercial success and ability, and unfortunately there does seem to be an inverse relationship between it and approbation by adherents of the genre. However that does not mean that the inverse is true and that anyone who has any commercial success is bad.

I would agree that folk music is constantly developing, and will absorb influences from other fields, but I would suggest that Colin Stewart has his direction inversed, Jazz, Rock and even pop music derives essentially from various folk styles. That is not to say there is not a two way flow, just pointing out the main direction. I suspect that the reason I like the Corries and feel obliged to argue with Colin is that, like Don, it is the words and singing that I appreciate most, some of those on your list Colin may be technically excellent musicians, but I would go a long way not to have to sit through their performance which frankly bore the pants off me.

I would also have to take issue with Colin on the issue of "ripping off" the system. Given your age Colin, you obviously weren't around during the great folk disaster, but in your terms the Corries, Clancys and Dubliners, Seeger, Guthrie, MacColl etc all ripped off the system, and if one wishes to be cynical, then all the people you mention could be accused of continuing to do so by allowing themselves to be marketed under the "Celtic" lablel. Hell, I even remember Dick Gaughan when he was a folk singer, before he started ripping off the system by writing his own stuff.

Each to his own Colin, I'm pleased that you have strong views and are prepared to argue them, I don't particularly want to convert you, but just be aware that your arguments can as easily be applied to those you laud.

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Don Meixner
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 11:56 PM

Hello Pete,

Why did I start this thread? In the Lock Tay thread a poster who I won't name but his initials are Rick Fielding mentioned hecouldn't understand why The Corries were so often maligned. Being as I am a Corries fan boy geek I decided to start this thread separately form the Lock Tay thread to answer his question and hopefully make a point or two re: The Corries and my views of trad folk in general. It sort of took on a life of it's own.

I have traded E-Mail with Colin privately and I find he is quite willing to help me with my whistle aspirations. He is as generous with his time as he is with his opinion. Both are attributes that I respect.

Warmest Regards

Don


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 02:29 AM

Don indeed took my one line about those happy, pickin' singin' Corries and made it front page news. So I've had a lot of fun that I didn't start. Colin didn't worry me a bit telling me that they were "crap, crap, crap"! His dad and I must stand firm. I have, on the other hand decided to delete from my repertoire all songs pertaining to herring and cobbling and perhaps even kipling. Thanks Don.(and Colin)


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: DonMeixner
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 07:20 AM

I, on the other hand, have never Kipled

Don


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 07:56 AM

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it, Don! I've kipled with the best of 'em, and I know! A lot of RK's "barrack-room" stuff was written to fit a tune, and based on first-hand accounts got from the men who'd been my lads and seen my lads (whoops - that's Leslie Mitchell!). Remove the crap cockeny accent and you've got a decent song. Read "Danny Deever" or "Snarleyow" or - yes! - "Gunga Din".

Steve


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: AndyG
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 08:36 AM

This is the only kipling I've ever done. (to a tune by Peter Bellamy I'm led to believe).
Good song it is too.

AndyG


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: John Nolan
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 08:34 PM

I have to agree strongly with Don Meixner in his praise of the Corries and Paddy Bell after first seeing them in concert in Edinburgh in 1962. Their stage presence was electrifying and their range of material was phenomenal...and included tremendous versions of popular ballads like Huntingtower (see Child 232 appendix). And to hear 50,000 voices singing Williamson's Flower O' Scotland over the terraces of Hampden Park...whatdya want from folk music, if you don't enjoy folk singing it? Perhaps those people above who mentioned the word "snobbery" may be on to something. Same with the Clancys and Tommy Makem. They have done enormous work in keeping songs alive, and Makem has passed the same love of singing and preservation onto his sons. I should know...happily drunk and bawling out songs in Conor Makem's kitchen with the rest of the gang a couple of weeks ago. And from learning his first song - The Little Beggar Man - at the age of three, sixty years on Tommy is still doing amazing stuff. I highly recommend Ancient Pulsing, (Red Biddy Records, Dover NH) If you think these fellows are resting on their laurels, listen to just one track - Pegusus...Patrick Cavanagh's poem, read by Tommy, with Aine Minogue's harp and his own whistle as backing. The Corries, the Clancys and the Makems dull and passé? Only to jaded ears.


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 11:42 PM

Andy G. Thanks for the link to your "kipling". My dad raised us on him and it's always nice to see some more and appreciation of his works.

I enjoyed your site also.

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Don Meixner
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 01:09 AM

Actually, I was going for the cheap laugh. You probably cn't guess from my other comments in this thread that I also like my poems to rhymn. Rudyard Kipling was first shown to me in the Robert Heinlein novels and in Trouble on Titan ,author escapes me. The frontice piece was the opening stanza of the Ballad of East and West. I first read Kim when I was 12. Kipling still amazes me. Gordon Bok sings the poem The Seawife to a tune I can now barely recall but RK's imagery in that piece is still gripping.

" And whether they lose to the naked knife or win their hearts desire, It all goes back to the weary wife who nods beside the fire."

I am also a Banjo Patterson, Robert Service, Noyes, Causley, Clarke, and Harte fan. But hell, you all probably guessed that by now.

Don


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Pete M
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 01:27 AM

Ah Don, that sounds like another "why" thread. "Why hasn't Causley been made Poet laureate?"

And by the way project Gothenburg has all of Kiplings poems available and downloadable.

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 03:39 AM

James K Stephen, who was probably Jack the Ripper, wrote a poem railing against modern popular fiction which concluded with the line "Till the Rudyards cease from Kipling and the Haggards ride no more."

You can also find the complete Kipling poems at ths site.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: BK
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 09:17 PM

Fell into this; simply say I appreciate the Corries - and Schooner Fare - & many others not at all purists. Got my first comprehensable version of "Coulter's Candy" from the Corries, & glad to understand the words, I was... Damn glad. Thought they were great

Cheers, BK


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 14 Apr 99 - 03:28 AM

"Coulter's Candy" - an early example of crass commercialism intruding into folk song!

Steve


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Ewan McV (inactive)
Date: 14 Apr 99 - 06:32 PM

I claim to be the Scots and possibly the world expert on Coulter's Candy, which turns out to be first cousin to Johnny Johnston took a notion For to cross the raging sea sometimes claimed for Liverpool but with a more complex pedigree. I have visited Robert Coultart's house in Galashiels where he probably made his hard candy in the 1870s, and found several old verses not in the Digital Tradition text. Turns out he he a brain tumour, that's why he went around singing in a happily disinhibited way, and got all the kids following him about. Any minute now there's a 30 minute documentary on Japanese TV about the song and the man. Am I not a self-satisfied little researcher? Ewan


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: BK
Date: 14 Apr 99 - 09:33 PM

I often introduce "Coulter's Candy" as an early example of child oriented advertising. Still love it...

Ewan: Did you get any notion at all about what ingredients his candy was made with? I would not be surprised if the candy were made from black-strap (or some kind of) molasses, and might have contained nutrients not usually found in the diets of children from poor families. (Assuming poor children could afford to buy the candy in the first place.)

An Australian friend also gave me some other verses. I presume there is the usual plethora of variations on this typical folk song.

Cheers, BK


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: skw@worldmusic.de
Date: 15 Apr 99 - 03:48 AM

And don't forget the lively correspondence that ensued when Norman Buchan printed 'Coulter's Candy' in the Weekly Scotsman in 1959 (I think). People from all over the world sent in verses they'd learnt in their youth. Very interesting! - Susanne


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Apr 99 - 01:27 PM

Could you elaborate on that for me? Is that a reference to the 'Johnny Notions' that I know of?

We lived in Eshaness, in Shetland, where at a place called Hamnavoe there was a run down 'butt and ben' with a plaque on the wall, saying that this was the birthplace of one 'Johnny Notions'. I can't remember all of it but it was to the effect that this chap was responsible for inventing cures and potions and he left the islands, and obtained some fame. Or were there 'Johnny Notions' everywhere?

Is it worth starting a new thread on the subject?


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Ewan McV (inactive)
Date: 15 Apr 99 - 06:09 PM

Re Coulter's Candy - it was flavoured with aniseed, and was hard enough that he could stamp his name on each piece, so it was not what Scots call tablet, and was I think a kind of hard toffee.

Re the Weekly Scotsman, Norrie Buchan drew on that for his version of CC in 101 Scots Songs, but I've not yet checked out the newspaper file direct.


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 09:53 AM

I am restarting this thread after looking through this load upon load of crap. The Corries and the Dubliners--two of the most well-known and sucsessful bands in their fields. Could that be the problem ye of little talent have with these guys? And by the way, who is it that doesn't take these guys seriously anyway? People who could get up on a stage and entertain a crowd for 2 seconds? Why don't all of you who "don't take these guys seriously" get together and pat each other on the back as you're jobbing yourself off.

Your Friend


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Bud Savoie
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 10:00 AM

Whatever happened to Paddie Bell?


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 10:33 AM

I know this is an old thread but I am curouis about what seems to be Rick and Don suggesting that the Dubliners had little musical tallent. I will agree that a lot of their music is rough and ready but IMO Barney McKenna is a fine tenor banjo player and John Sheehan is an equally good fiddler. I think that John Sheehan has also written some nice tunes. The Marino Waltz and Christchurch are 2 that I think are his.

Re the respect bit, I respect them all. In my case, it was the Clanceys and the Dubiners that got me interested in folk music. Thinking of another current thread, it could have been Dylan for somebody else. I doubt that any of us are going to like every perfomer but I think we should all apprecaite that they all got people interested in folk music and should at leat be respected for that.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: DonMeixner
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 01:55 PM

Jon,

My friend , please reread everything that I said on this thread, I think you greatly misunderstand my opinion of the The Dubliners and The Corries. It could be that you, a speaker of English, and me a speaker of Americanish just have a diferent dialect to over come. :-)


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Metchosin
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 03:01 PM

Ewan, you might want to get in touch with Murray on Saltspring regarding your extra verses of Coulters Candy as well. He was very interested in the version that my grandmother brought over to Canada ca.1910, which also had no mention of "Coulter" in it. He is currently working on a book of Scottish Bairn Songs.


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Metchosin
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 03:04 PM

Ewan, would you also be familiar with a ditty that she sang called Wee McGregor?


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 03:12 PM

Yes Don, have done, I don't think this was a lanuague one. It was simply caused by me trying to read a thread too quickly - scanning it to get the jist and am a little biased on this one to start of with because I often feel that insrumental musical abilites of at least the 2 I mentioned is too often ignored... Sorry

Jon


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Metchosin
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 03:13 PM

Gee, I didn't notice that this was an old thread and Ewan hasn't posted anything since last May...too bad....


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Calach
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 03:58 PM

The Corries were the inspiration to many thousands of young folk singers in the celtic world.
Without them and people like them; Dubliners, Spinners, Robin Hall & Jimmy McGregor etc there wouldn't be as many people like me and folk like me singing folk music today.
They are simply part of the root of the tree which is Celtic folk music today.
Calach (Edinburgh Folk Singer/Songwriter)


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 04:39 PM

The Clancy Brothers do a version of "51st Highland Division's Farewell to Sicily" in which the lyrics have been changed enough to alter the meaning of the song and rip the guts out - to me, at least. I don't get offended anymore, I just go look for the song the way it used to be. It's like watching a good movie, like Braveheart, which is very inaccurate from an historical point of view. You just enjoy it for what it is, and go learn the facts later. I'm not familiar with the Corries, but the Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem introduced me to an awful lot of songs and I've enjoyed their music.

Regarding the snobbery issue. I've encounterd it in myself and loads of other people. We like our community small, and there's a tendency to "dis" anyone who starts selling a lot of records or gets played on commercial radio stations. We dismiss great songs, simply because everybody knows them. For some, folk music isn't what folk sing, it's what only folksingers sing.


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Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: kendall
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 04:58 PM

I'm glad someone mentioned Schooner Fare. Chuck and Tom did backup on my tape, Beginners Luck. They are good friends of mine, and I hear some nrgative crap about them being too commercial also. Bollox!! they are great guys and they entertain me. Nuff said. The Corries? I have a pile of their tapes, and I dont give a rats ass who doesnt like them...I do.


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