Subject: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 24 Jan 08 - 04:50 PM Reuters is reporting Kucinich will drop out of the race tomorrow, not endorsing another candidate. If his SC voters go to Edwards, Edwards could easily tie with or beat Clinton in SC. Hmmmm, always have to wonder about the timing. |
Subject: BS: Kuchinich bows out (so says NPR) From: Padre Date: 24 Jan 08 - 04:52 PM NPR's All Things Considered just announced that Dennis Kuchinich will bow out of the presidential campaign tomorrow |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 24 Jan 08 - 04:59 PM He needs to concentrate on his campaign to retain his House seat now anyway. I'd be perturbed with him for dropping out if this was not the case. But he's not going to get the nomination from the Democrats, and we need him where he is now. Still, if he loses his seat, I hope he'll run for president on an independent ticket. I'll be writing in his name in either case. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kuchinich bows out (so says NPR) From: CarolC Date: 24 Jan 08 - 05:00 PM He needs to concentrate on his campaign to retain his House seat now anyway. I'd be perturbed with him for dropping out if this was not the case. But he's not going to get the nomination from the Democrats, and we need him where he is now. Still, if he loses his seat, I hope he'll run for president on an independent ticket. I'll be writing in his name in either case. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kuchinich bows out (so says NPR) From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jan 08 - 05:01 PM Yeah, I just heard that too. The corporate smear hounds have been unleased in Ohio (primarily on Cleveland TV outlets) to try and knock him off his Congressional seat through a barrage of TV attack ads, so he may have been forced to devote most of his future time and enery to holding onto his seat from Ohio now. We'll see. They would just love to turf him out of Congress, because they cannot buy him or shut him up. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Jan 08 - 05:01 PM Maybe he'll run for the Greens. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kuchinich bows out (so says NPR) From: Peace Date: 24 Jan 08 - 05:04 PM ". . . or shut him up." Don't give the bastards any ideas. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Amos Date: 24 Jan 08 - 05:14 PM SOrry he wasn't elevated to the level of his brains. Him and Adlai. sigh.... A |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: KB in Iowa Date: 24 Jan 08 - 05:20 PM He is my guy but I hope he does not run on a third party ticket. That would just pull votes from the dem and possibly elect a repub who might not have won otherwise. 97,448 Floridians voted for Nader in 2000. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: KB in Iowa Date: 24 Jan 08 - 05:21 PM It was 97,488, typo. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: gnu Date: 24 Jan 08 - 05:33 PM I really like the guy. Amos said it.... |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: PoppaGator Date: 24 Jan 08 - 05:44 PM Two threads that ought to be combined. I noticed that CarolC made identical posts to both threads, so I'm doing the same...
-Joe Offer- |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 24 Jan 08 - 06:15 PM I just got off the phone with the Kucinich campaign coordinator for my state. We both agree that we will continue to help Dennis and his work in any way we can. I hope that those who also see the value of his work will do the same. At this point in time, his campaign to keep his House seat needs $ contributions. Here's the website for his Congressional campaign... http://www.kucinich.us/ |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 24 Jan 08 - 06:31 PM I know this dashes many Mudcat hopes. But I'm still really wondering if Edwards can still pull off an upset. These things can turn on a dime. All this "for certain" crap is just plain silly in January, regardless of what pundits and spinners keep claiming to be the absolute truth. Like McCain will never win. I loved that one. They all wrote him off last summer. And they and pollsters got NH totally wrong on the Dem side too. So like, what's up with the kingmakers and the powerbrokers anyway? Things not going according to plan, hmmmm? |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jan 08 - 06:38 PM Don't be so sure that the pollsters got NH wrong on the Dem side... |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,cookieless Date: 24 Jan 08 - 06:42 PM I hope he still pursues his lawsuit against MSNBC. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jan 08 - 06:51 PM And his impeachment initiative against Cheney. But more importantly, he needs to get his many positive ideas and policies out there into people's awareness. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:06 PM I just sent back one of the Democratic National Committee "surveys" (in which they ask leading questions then ask for bucks at the end). I didn't send money, but my suggestion was that they adopt his ideas on Health Care (get the insurance companies out of health care) and get the US out of Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure they won't be asking me for any more of my opinions. SRS |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:08 PM No, but they may put you on their list of "subversives and potential troublemakers"... |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Bobert Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:19 PM Well, the most important thing now for Dennis to bring up the rear and that means hold his House seat... There are now 4 candidates back in Ohio that want it... We need Dennis in the House more than on the martyr train... After the last 8 years, if the Dems pick up a few seats here and a few seats there then maybe Dennis's "Dapartment of Peace" will get a second look... B~ |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: katlaughing Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:24 PM If McCain gets the GOP nomination, the Dems will need every vote to count as i think he is the only GOP candidate who might have a chance. I'd hate to see anyone vote third party, instead of putting more behind the Dem. candidate, if that becomes the case. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:30 PM Well, now it is down to three, and of course, the pundits, pollsters, and spinners all say it is also over for Edwards. I believe the power brokers of this country find Edwards the most disagreeable candidate to their interests, so have kept him out of the media. The power brokers best interests are served by a Clinton v Obama smackdown spectacle. It really doesn't matter to them who wins on the Republican side, because all those boys are bought and paid for. They know that so long as the Dem nom is either Clinton or Obama, whomever the Republican candidate is, will win. Hence the "main event" long since being the Clinton/Obama Smackdown. Personally, I decided to stop participating in the mass delusion of electoral politics after the 2006 election. So I'm not vested in anybody "winning" because I don't believe it matters anymore who will win. The power elite is running the show, and they don't even bother to dress up their naked powermongering anymore. Why bother, when everyone is watching American Idol and bitching about the writers strike ruining their TV seasons? |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:40 PM I think your analysis may be pretty close to what's going on, GG...though I'm not totally sure that the Repubs can beat either Clinton or Obama at the polls. In any case, I think Clinton represents basically the same interests the Repubs do anyway, except for one...like them, she is playing to win, of course. As for Obama....hmmmm...not quite sure about him at this point. Or Edwards, for that matter. You are quite correct that the power elite is running the show. They've been doing so for a long time now. It's a cinch to run the show when you own the national TV networks. Child's play. Among the Repubs, by the way, I think there's one who hasn't been bought by the elite. Ron Paul. But he'll never get the nomination, so it's academic. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Bobert Date: 24 Jan 08 - 08:32 PM Yup, GG... My hope (make that dream) is that Obama is the Trojan Horse, will get elected and then kick out the jambs... I know the chances are slim that he'll either get elected or if he does turn out to be the Trojan Horse but when I look around at the rest of them I'm thinking "Ahhhhhhh, Beam me up, Scotty"... Even Edwards... He voted for the Resolution that turned over thwe war making powers to Bush... That, IMO, is unforgivable... The Kucinich camp has tried to pin that on Obama but he didn't vote for the Resolution... He wasn't even a US Senator then... There was enough info out there at the time of the Resolution, with Dennis leading the opposition in the House, for any thinking person to think "This is messed up. I can't go along with this!!!" Edwards went along with it... We don't need a president who doesn't have the balls to do the right thing thinking he oe she can always come back and say, "I screwed up"... I understant screwing up... Giving unlimited powers to George Bush to wage war is beyond screwing up... It was and is insane... We don't need another insane president... We have had our fill, thank you... No John Edwards... B~ |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Amos Date: 24 Jan 08 - 08:48 PM WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich may get excluded from democratic presidential debates, but he's voicing his opinion on the House floor. On Wednesday, Kucinich announced he'll be filing articles of impeachment against President Bush on Monday. That's the same day of the president's state of the union address. The announcement comes as Kucinich railed the President and Vice President for how they have handled the war in Iraq. In his lengthy statement, the Ohio congressman said, "The President and Vice President lied and 4,000 of our soldiers died. The President and Vice President lied and a million innocent Iraqis died in a war that'll cost us two trillion dollars while people here in the states are losing their jobs, their health care, their homes, their dignity. Lies are weapons of mass destruction. Lies are also an impeachable offense. Monday, January 28th is the State of the Union. We already know the State of the Union, it's a lie." After minor commotion on the floor and opposition by Republicans, the ostracized presidential candidate moved to have his words taken off the record. Kucinich said, "I ask unanimous consent to withdraw the offending words, to the end that they be stricken from the record and that I be permitted to revise and extend my remarks for the record." Last April and November, Kucinich almost had the house debating the impeachment of Vice President Cheney. House Democratic leaders blocked the debate by referring the impeachment effort back to the judiciary committee. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Richard Bridge Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:17 PM Pity he withdrew that... |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:25 PM I wonder if people in other parts of the country will be willing to contribute to his House race? |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:27 PM Obama voted to fund the war, Bobert. The Kucinich people never tried to give the impression that he voted to start the war. They (we) were consistent in our message that he did support continuing the war with his votes after he got into office. And he did do that. However, considering the fact that he voted to support the war by voting to fund it, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to imagine that if he had been in the Senate at the time that the resolution was voted on to give Bush those powers, his well developed sense of political expediency would have caused him to vote to give Bush those powers. Since he wasn't in office at the time, it was pretty easy for him to speak out against starting the war, but had he been in office, it might have been another story altogether. That Trojan horse thing can cut two ways, you know. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:27 PM I'll be contributing, Riginslinger. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:32 PM Well, I gotta say, it seems like there were a lot of conspiracy theorists among the Kucinich supporters. Even his wife sounded like it at times - same as the people who listen to right-wing talk radio, but with a mindless liberal ideology instead of a mindless conservative one. There even were those who suspected conspiracy when a Kucinich thread here was closed temporarily. Kucinich didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning the election - and if by some odd chance he DID win, he wouldn't have been able to accomplish anything because he didn't show any ability to compromise. Some may think it "selling out," but if you want to accomplish anything in a democracy, you have to be able to respect your opponent and engage in some give-and-take. -Joe Offer, Radical Moderate- |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:47 PM Is "Radical Moderate" an oxymoron? And there is still the problem of the two major parties being in bed together and dancing to the tune of multinational corporations. Will it take a massive depression to end this cycle? |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:53 PM You don't have to agree with it, Joe, but there's nothing mindless about it. A hell of a lot of thought goes into Kucinich's positions as well as his philosophy. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it mindless. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 24 Jan 08 - 10:22 PM I've never found Kucinich to be mindless, thoughtless, or anything else. In fact, I think it is really sad he and Edwards are both having the same problem cracking through the MSM blackout of their campaigns. Out of the whole lot, I think Kucinich and Edwards are the best candidates in terms of positions. I don't share Bobert's contempt for Edwards. I save that for the Clintons and Obamas. In another lifetime, I could see all four of them being chummy as hell at the country club. Four peas in a DLC pod. In fact, I'm pretty sure all those DLC types were orginally grown in pods in outer space. There you go, Joe. How is that for a conspiracy theory. My fearless prediction (easy when you aren't invested in the outcome, BTW) is that Kucinich's voters are going to mostly go to Edwards. Will make enough of a difference to shakeup the outcome? Who knows? The whizzy spinner types are now saying he had been climbing in the SC polls all week, while the C/O Smackdown have both been dropping. Maybe it was his Letterman joke (which he quickly has worn out this week) about being the grown up wing, blah blah. I his suspiciously kumbayah looking sing a long with Ralph Stanley. Hard to know in SC. But if the spin docs are spinning him rising in the polls, there MUST be a perfectly legitimate, non-conspiracy theory type explanation for the spin? No? |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jan 08 - 10:30 PM Joe, no candidate who openly speaks the truth about the insanity of the USA's foreign policy in the last 7 years and the utter irresponsibility of its approach to national health care has a snowball's chance in hell of being elected. They threaten too many entrenched interests when they do that. Those entrenched interests are simply doing what they normally do to maximize their profits. That's not a conspiracy, it's just naked self-interest doing what it naturally always does. Just follow the money trail. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: JohnInKansas Date: 25 Jan 08 - 12:54 AM Pity he withdrew that... ????? A quirk possibly not understood by many is that "the Record" is not what's said in session, and often bears little resemblence to what actually goes on. Persons who speak in either house of the Legislature are "by tradition" permitted to "edit" what's eventually published in the Congressional Record. As a matter of tradition, wholesale rewrites are frowned upon, but there is much latitude. To Speak "on the floor" it's quite common for the person recognized to be given a comparatively brief time to have his/her say. Sometimes a specific time is given in advance, but lengthy discourse often gets "interrupted" while things remain to be said. Note the statement in the preceding post: "I ask unanimous consent to withdraw the offending words, to the end that they be stricken from the record and that I be permitted to revise and extend my remarks for the record." Assuming that the request was accepted, as it appears to have been1, it amounts to him being given permission to insert ORIGINAL MATERIAL in the Congressional Record. In effect, he's used a "Parliamentary tradition" to pave the way for saying what he really wants to, without regard to any time limits and without directly facing objections prior to the full publication of his "amendments." 1 In the absence of a formal challenge and a demand for a vote, such "permissions" generally are considered accepted, and there is seldom even any debate. Since hardly anyone in Congress ever actually reads the Congressional Record (other than their own inserts, maybe), he's maneuvered a "blind-side" for future reference. A maneuver of this kind is seldom considered a "master stroke" but it's common enough to say something "deliberately controversial" with the hope that it may be "withdrawn with permission" in order to get to write an essay in the record. All that need be hoped is that he does insert his real (amended) speech, and that it contains something worth reading. John |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 08 - 01:03 AM I guess I ought to emphasize that I have found Dennis Kucinich himself to have good ideas and to be reasonable and practical in the presentation of those ideas. Hey, one of those online tests showed Kucinich was the candidate with ideas closest to mine. The problem is with the mindless ideology and conspiracy theories that exist among his supporters, including some of those who post here on his behalf. He has to build a more rational and reasonable support base - and that means compromise and respect, not single-minded ideology. If you expect to have everything your own way, you'll end up with nothing. Progress comes slowly. As for me, I'll be very happy with either Clinton or Obama, and I believe they are people who can actually accomplish some of the ideals and goals I think this country should pursue. I agree with most of the goals of Dennis Kucinich, but I don't think he can accomplish them. I know we live in an age of ideology, where "I'm right and everybody else is wrong" is the worldwide slogan - but we'll never bring peace and an end to poverty in this world unless we can learn the art of respect and compromise. -Joe Offer, Radical Moderate- (ain't nobody agrees with me) |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Peace Date: 25 Jan 08 - 01:21 AM Well, I'm a Moderate Radical, Joe. I kinda agree with you excert you got it backwards . . . . |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 25 Jan 08 - 01:22 AM You're entitled to your opinions, Joe, but to those of use who support Kucinich, it's the people who are blindly adhering to the status quo because they seem to think it's the best they can get, or who blindly trust people whose records show a history of betraying what they say they stand for (like Clinton, Edwards, and Obama), or who think they're going to get any better deal from a Democrat, just because of the fact of their being a Democrat... those are the ones who are promoting a mindless ideology. It's easy (and in my opinion, also quite lazy and mindless) to pigion-hole things, calling them "conspiracy theory" just because they are distasteful to think about, or because you personally find them difficult to believe. But history is rife with conspiracies. One can find no shortage of conspiracies on a massive scale that have been proven to be fact and not theory. The Pentagon Papers are an excellent example of this. What you are calling 'conspiracy theory' could just as easily be 'conspiracy fact' that you just haven't see the proof of yet. So to use that label in order to discredit people with whom you disagree is also mindless. The mindfull approach would be to refrain from pigeon-holing people and using labels as ad hominem arguments, and to engage in reasoned debate on the issues instead. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 08 - 02:08 AM OK, so I think I and every other card-carrying liberal would agree that universal health care is a priority - second only to ending the war, I think. How would Kucinich have accomplished that, and do you truly believe he could have accomplished it in his first years in office? How would he get the opposition to buy into it? Agendas and ideologies are fine if you have an overwhelming majority. What happens if there's a substantial opposition? -Joe Offer- |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 25 Jan 08 - 03:02 AM Compromise is a tricky word in this context (and many other contexts as well), Joe. What are we calling compromise in this context? Was it an "I'm right and you're wrong, single-minded ideology, lack of willingness to compromise" approach that got Canada and Britain their universal, single payer, not for profit health care systems? What did it take for them to get to the point where they could accomplish that? Did they compromise with an insurance industry that was sucking them dry while not providing them with adequate health care for their people? I suspect that had they taken the approach that is being advocated by the three remaining Democratic candidates, those countries would not have the systems they have today. Sometimes compromise isn't really compromise, it's capitulation. In the case of health care, as long as we are compromising with an industry that hasn't got our best interests at heart, we are not really compromising, we are capitulating. The way to get the kind of health care system we need is to stop capitulating and letting the insurance industry tell us what we are and are not allowed to do, and start taking care of ourselves and standing up for ourselves. If more people would work to get the word out about the need to do this, pressure could be brought to bear on those we elect to do our bidding to make them do what we pay them to do. But as long as people take the approach you are suggesting, the insurance industry will always be the final arbiter of who can have health care and who can't. That's not compromise. That's capitulation. Did the founding fathers of this country compromise with the king of England when they determined it was time to free themselves from the control of that government? Had they been willing to compromise, would this country have ever been created? Did the allied powers compromise with Hitler and Mussolini in WWII? Had the allied powers compromised with them, would anything have been accomplished at all? In each of these cases, the only choices were resistance or capitulation. Compromise wasn't an option. The same is true of many of the issues we face today. Dennis knows this. The other candidates say they believe in compromise, but a look at their records shows us that what they are calling compromise is really capitulation. Obama, for instance, said that he was working to provide the people of Illinois with universal health care. But he capitulated to the insurance industry and the people of Illinois got nothing. That's not compromise, it's capitulation. Clinton and Obama said they were against the Iraq war (after they saw it as being politically expedient to say that), but they voted to fund it. The war hasn't ended, it has continued unabated. That isn't compromise, it's capitulation. These people say they are all about change, but they don't bring any change at all. All they do is maintain the status quo. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 Jan 08 - 03:29 AM Well, I agree with you on most of that CarolC, except that I'm inclined to think that current events indicate the unwisdom of the USA freeing itself from the controls of the English kings (grin). |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 25 Jan 08 - 03:46 AM I didn't say it was a good thing, Richard, I only suggested that they got it done. ;-) |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: akenaton Date: 25 Jan 08 - 04:11 AM Don't listen to the "compromisers" These people are scum and have all the "democratic" weapons at their disposal. They wish to deprive us all of our human rights. The political process will never change anything without pressure from the people. Remember Martin Luther King. Remember Mario Savio. "Let us throw our bodies in the gears and on the wheels. Tell them that we will prevent the machine from running at all" |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Ron Davies Date: 25 Jan 08 - 07:27 AM "contempt" for Obama. "Don't listen to the compromisers". And this is about Democrats. Ake may have an excuse--he doesn't have to live with the consequences. As for the rest--except Joe and a few others: Will Rogers was right (again): "I don't belong to any organized party. I'm a Democrat". We all had best hope it will not be McCain vs Hillary in the fall. Good chance Hillary has poisoned the well she'll have to drink out of soon. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 25 Jan 08 - 08:39 AM The entire field of candidates, viable and otherwise, are a distressingly bad lot, considering the US and it's citizenry routinely claims the mantle "best in the world" at democracy. Of course, once you've brainwashed the electorate to believe that elections are the sole criteria of democracy, then hey--the power mongers got elections in the bag. Their bag, not yours. I see no uproar in this forum over the FISA debate going on in Congress right now. Why? It's all about the horse race and celebrity politics. Meanwhile, Weasel Cheney is addressing the Heritage Foundation, and ratcheting the pressure up on the Democrats so they will cave and make his custom made FISA law permanent. All while everybody is watching the celebrity horse race. Hey--is that Sylvester Stallone over there with John McCain? He has a new Rambo blood bath movie premiering doesn't he? I went and saw Barak--he's the Bono of the celebrity politician set, isn't he? What a rock star! Wouldn't it be great to have a rock star president? That would be just so awesome. Even Kucinich is a dire choice, because he isn't a very good politician. Sure he has hung onto his seat for several terms, but considering the legacy of incumbency, that isn't usually all that difficult. He is the perfect example of a candidate who can be right on all the issues, but wrong for the country because he isn't an effective leader. The whole system is a sham at this point. Your choices are a lying, cheating crook from the Republican wing or Democrat wing. Now, if your conscience allows you to continue voting for lying, cheating crooks then by all means, vote. Otherwise--not. Personally, I've come to believe the country deserves who they vote for, so hey--looks like it will be four more years of Republicans, eh? It's all so predictable--unless you vote for Democrats, of course. Then you are just downright delusional. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Peace Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:00 AM ". . . wonderin' who turned the lights on us." |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Peace Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:06 AM Kucinich is dropping out of a race he was never going to win. He is a man of integrity in a political world that can't spell the word. Since there is no way the American people could be convinced to vote for a Republican in the coming election (too much water under too many bridges), it will be a Democrat. Y'll better look at who in the Democratic race would be the most attractive to both Democrat and Republican voters, because that person will be next President of the USA. IMO. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:25 AM No, I don't think so Peace. It is THE foregone conclusion in MSM at this point (and for once, I believe the conventional wisdom may be correct, but more on that later) that it will be a race between McCain and Clinton in the fall. Clinton could beat a lot of the Republican field, but not McCain. Sure there are even MSM wildcards--McCain's health being a big one. But if the US casualties can be kept down, if no one objects to troops going into Pakistan (not a peep in the MSM celebrity politician sweepstakes about that announcement yesterday), and the economy doesn't slip too much further into the recession pit (and there are lots of signs it's already bottoming out, so good news for McCain there), why would Americans NOT vote McCain? As to the conventional wisdom. This is what I have observed for the past 3 presidential cycles, and the last 2 local elections cycles: the MSM is picking the winners by manipulating coverage. Repeat the messages enough, block all dissenting/alternative messages, and your boy/girl will win everytime. The MSM has become quite naked in their aggression, as we saw with the court cases over debates. The Supreme Court--in the corporados pockets. The FCC--in the corporados pockets. The Federal Reserve. The Securities and Exchange. The EPA. It's all locked down now. Nobody can stop the corporados now, because they own and control it all, right on down to the voting machines. Obama supports building the wall between the US & Mexico. All three Democratic candidates are pro-capital punishment. None of the candidates are true leaders in even the benevolent dictator sense of the Roosevelt/Reagan model. The UN now predicts that by 2030, a short quarter century from now, that one third of global population--and that includes the US--will be living in slums. Not just poverty--slums. Neither god or the American dream are dead. There was, however, a buyout that resulted in a corporate merger which leveraged the future of the planet to sustain it. So, just keep voting chumps. That's gonna fix everything, I'm sure. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Peace Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:30 AM Back later. I wanna give that some thought. Tell you this though: I hope you didn't call it with that post, GG. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Amos Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:48 AM The hingepoint is Barack's shields and ability to sublimate attacks into popular support. My sense is that if he has the organizing and responsiveness needed to make a campaign, he may well surprise people by going up against McCain and winning. He has the brain power to do it but as Dennis' case sadly demonstrates brains can lose out to well-organized hatefulness. A |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:53 AM Delusional case in point #1. WTF sort of Demnifying rabblebabble is that? I believe Amos is on the Obamarama Bus. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Amos Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:31 AM Oh -- I'm sorry. I thought you had transcended ad hominem argumentation, but it appears your rationality is only skin deep. Shame. Well, thanks for sending that in, and 'bye for now. A |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:50 AM Read it and weep. The only thing that matters right now to corporate masters is that conventional MSM wisdom win, and they will stop at nothing to insure that happens. Who will be the next president of the United Snookering of America? Whichever sock puppet comes off best on late night. That has to be McCain, beloved by both Comedy Central AND Worldwide Pants (even though Hil is their home girl). |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jan 08 - 12:16 PM Sorry to be so dense, GG...but what the hell is MSM? Oh, wait....is it "MainStream Media"? If so, I would have to agree pretty much with what you're saying. It's the perfected Orwellian thought-control machine of corporate America. Control the public airwaves, and you control everything. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Amos Date: 25 Jan 08 - 12:22 PM The day a CBS PR blurb makes me weep, I'll turn in my Mudcat password. Tell ya what, Purveyor of Doom and Catastrophe. Crawl into a snowbank and pull it in after you. A |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 08 - 12:27 PM Hmmm. I guess I don't know what MSM is, either. Acronyms and and abbreviations can make me feel so left behind. How does everybody understand them, and not me? I think I have a deep resentment of those who speak in abbreviations and acronyms - goes back to my Army days, I guess. Anyhow, I guess I don't see things as so bleak. It appears to me that the frontrunners are Clinton, Obama, McCain, and Giuliani (although Huckleberry and Romney don't seem completely dead yet). Of the first four on the list, I think they're all decent people whose priority would be to serve the nation - and I don't think any of them are particularly beholden to corporate interests (other than the fact that sometimes corporate interests can be good for the general welfare). Huckabee and Romney scare me a bit for religious reasons, I suppose - but they do seem to be good men. So, that's a list of six people (and Edwards is fine too although I don't think he has a chance). Of those six, none of them shows the cynicism and self-interest that was always so predominant in the Bush Administration. So, I'd say that's a major step forward. Bush has been vanquished and will leave office with no glory, and the next one in charge will be worlds better than Bush. So, I'm happy. -Joe- |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 25 Jan 08 - 12:32 PM Yes, MSM = mainstream media. And once they get the new FISA Act enshrined (Democrats capitulated in order to "appear" strong on national security AGAIN) this Monday-- thanks so much Senator Reid--with the retroactive immunity for the telecomms, they will be poised to push through the most important legislation in political freedom worldwide in 150 years--the freedom to spy on the Internet. On anybody. For any reason. With absolutely no oversight by anyone, save the executive branch and the spy agencies, who will be the only ones allowed to see the FISA case histories. Once the lock up control of the internet, the fat ladies will be singing from the mountaintops. And there ain't even gonna be a whimper from the American public--who are now the world's Public Enemy #1. We all live in the world of haves and have nots, ruled by the we don't give a shits. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 25 Jan 08 - 12:51 PM GUEST,GUEST, is there anyone on earth today whom you feel would be a good president? (As the presidency now is, although I'm of the opinion that the presidency should be bumped down a few notches myself.) |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jan 08 - 01:02 PM The powers of the US president should be more limited than they presently are. It is like an imperial presidency as it now exists. The president should not have the power to veto any legislation passed by both houses of Congress, and he should not have the power to take the country to war without a formal declaration of war passed by both houses of Congress. Nor should he be termed the "commander-in-chief". I don't think that is an appropriate title for any leader who is not either a military dictator or a king. The army serves the NATION as a whole, not the nation's chief executive. The armed forces are not his private army. He doesn't own them. If he commits treasonable and unconstitutional acts, then it is the army's duty to arrest him on behalf of the nation whom they are sworn to serve. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jan 08 - 01:07 PM I might add, of course, that the present US constitution would have to be amended for the president's powers to be limited as I have suggested...as regards the veto on Congressional legislation. Other than that, I think that Bush and Cheney have already violated the US Constitution on a number of occasions (as have some other presidents)....but the public will not take much notice of that unless the mainstream media choose to tell them about it loudly and repeatedly....and that is clearly not going to happen. The MSM control the public perception by means of what stories they decide to cover, and what emphasis and tone they give to those stories. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 25 Jan 08 - 02:16 PM No, CarolC, I don't believe in the people running or the process anymore. So why would I continue to vote? That would be hypocrisy. I'm done, done, and done with the US electoral system, because voting doesn't change it, make the political system or our lives under it more just or fair or "better" especially for those who are truly suffering. So why give all the time, energy, resources and money to it? It won't stop the human suffering and enviromental toll of our wars. It won't stop the corporate masters from doing anything because they have everybody in their pocket and have changed all the laws to put them beyond reach of the laws of this land or any other. The US political system is broken beyond repair, IMO. Now, lots of folks will continue to vote, and participate in the mass delusion that voting matters. But they can't ever quite explain HOW it matters. Can you? |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 Jan 08 - 02:44 PM So, Guest, Guest, your master plan is? Or does it involve something I dare not post here because of FISA? |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 25 Jan 08 - 02:50 PM I understand what you're saying, GUEST,GUEST, but I think the question I am asking is somewhat different than the one you seem to be answering. I'm curious to know if there is any human being on the planet whom you think would do a good job as president once in office (all of the bullshit associated with the elections process notwithstanding). I totally agree with you about the process, I'm just wondering what sort of person (if any) you think would make a good president. Or perhaps, like me, you believe that the job description for our presidents needs to undergo some major revisions. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 25 Jan 08 - 02:57 PM Carol, really, my answer is NO, unequivocally. Why? Because the system itself is corrupted, and IMO, can't be fixed by voting. Richard, I'm only a level 9, and so can't be in charge of Master Plans. Seriously, my plan is to view the whole thing as entertainment on the same level as American Idol. Beyond that, I'm going to keep on keepin' on, knowing that my lifelong dedication to working for progressive change is in no way changed or diminished by my decision not to participate anymore. But I would be lying if I said I wasn't going to vote at all. My Grand Master Plan is to vote, but only for Al Franken, and no one else. Because what we are all gonna need for the next four years is some comic relief. And maybe writing in Wavy Gravy for prez. If I get around to getting to the polls. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Big Mick Date: 25 Jan 08 - 03:24 PM OK, GG, here is where we part. There is a basic contradiction in your plan. On one hand, understandably to me, you are completely unbelieving in the political system. I understand that. You indicate that you are done with the political system, yet you will continue to work for social change. I don't see how one can work for social change without working with folks in a political way. I need you to enunciate, without all the dance, how you will effect social change without participating with folks in the grand social experiment. You are very good, in fact brilliant IMO, in enunciating what is wrong with the system. But when it comes to concrete facts about how you will effect change, you go completely vague. You also assert, on many occasions, that you are a lifelong activist for social change. Can you give us a summary of the pro active things you have done? I am being honest when I tell you that you seem well read, and long on analysis, but I truly wonder how that has been put into action. Mick |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 25 Jan 08 - 03:44 PM I'm unbelieving after decades of direct, personal experience working within the political system, don't forget. I'm sorry your worldview is so small you can't grasp how people make a choice to work for change and don't work within the existing political system. But millions of people all over the world do it on a daily basis. Just think of all the women who don't have the ability to vote in the world, for starters. Are you suggesting they have no meaningful effect on the world around them, just because men don't allow them to vote? Talk about cynical. PS. I don't have to enunciate a thing. I'm just done with the electoral system. Does it mean I'm burning my drivers license? No. I'm just not going to vote. I will continue to have opinions, even about the horse race. But I'm still not going to play the game. I'm not going to contribute money, time, trees or bandwidth to candidates and politicians. I'm not going to sign petitions. I'm not going to say I have answers to what ails the thing, when I don't have any. Revolution? Not in fashion yet. Exile? Yup, probably. As soon as the babies finish college, in all likelihood. Anything else? Oh. Proactive things I've done. Well, I brushed my teeth this morning. Went to work at a job I think makes a difference to the kids in the school where I work. No one has to agree with my assessment, of course. But it gives meaning to my life and theirs that I can share what I know, give what I have to give. I do a lot of stuff with non-profits. Most lately with mentoring young feminist artists in our cooperative and this year, it hopefully looks like my partner & I will be working with these folks. We are trying to set up a Sri Lankan grad student going to school here with cameras to go back to Sri Lanka and start filming a documentary on the child sex trade there. I'm very focused on the arts, in other words, which I believe is quite a bit more powerful when it comes to winning hearts and minds than conventional electoral politics. Anyway, that's about all I'm doing for now. Pretty much same as a lot of artists I know are doing. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 25 Jan 08 - 03:49 PM I understand, GUEST,GUEST. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 25 Jan 08 - 03:59 PM Yeah, CarolC I wasn't too worried about you getting it! ;) |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 25 Jan 08 - 03:59 PM Here's Dennis' blog post addressing his withdrawal from the presidential race, and his hope that the movement he sees forming around the work he and his supporters have been doing will continue (and a link for anyone who would like to be a part of this work)... Dennis' Blog |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 25 Jan 08 - 04:11 PM And here is YouTube's "Best of" on him. Some rare, priceless stuff. His voice being silenced isn't good news, that's for sure. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jan 08 - 05:18 PM GUEST, GUEST - I understand your postion perfectly, and I empathize with it. Every human being can work to change the world in positive ways by their daily conduct in regards TO the world and to other human beings. That doesn't necessarily mean that they will choose to participate in the USA's electoral and campaign system, needless to say... ;-) I still vote in Canadian elections. Do I think it will make a difference? No, frankly, I don't. Do I think the politicians will follow through on their promises...assuming the ones I voted for even win? No, frankly, I don't. ;-) I just do it for the heck of it, anyway, because it's a rare event, and because if I do then some smartass can't tell me I have no right to have an opinion on anything because I didn't vote... But as it stands...the elections are a joke, and a lot of the people here are well aware of that. Some of them vote anyway, like me, just for the hell of it...and some of them don't. Either way is okay with me. I'm a lot more concerned about how people act in general for the other 365 days out of their year than I am whether they went and voted on election day. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: DougR Date: 25 Jan 08 - 05:44 PM I don't agree with Dennis Kucinich on a single political point but I admired the way he steadfastly promoted his point of view. I think the Democrat Party treated him shabbily and would not be surprised to see him make himself available to run on a third party ticket. I don't think he has a prayer of winning, but a liberal third party couldn't do better were it to pick him as it's standard bearer. DougR |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Jan 08 - 05:58 PM That, of course, would elect another Republican--shades of 2000. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jan 08 - 06:03 PM "shabbily" is putting it mildly, Doug. The problem with launching any 3rd party in the USA that takes a liberal/progressive position is...it simply will guarantee a win for its diametrical opposite...in the form of the Republican Party and the neocon agenda...because it will take a chunk of votes from the Democrats. Therefore, it is unfortunately a self-defeating idea at the present time. (That's why you like it. It would kill any chance the Democrats have.) In the same fashion...if Huckabee, say, were to launch a 3rd party to represent the aspirations of Evangelicals....it could only result in taking away enough votes from the Republicans to guarantee a Democratic win. 3rd parties simply can't work in your present political system. They inevitably end up achieving the exact opposite of what they set out to achieve. They benefit those to whom they are most opposed. Only if a majority of Americans totally lose faith in and abandon BOTH the Democrats AND the Republicans...and at the same time...only then will it become possible to genuinely change your system as it now exists. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Bobert Date: 25 Jan 08 - 06:11 PM Well, yes, the system is broken becuase the power is not in the hands "of the people" or it's use "for the people"... A large problem is in that TJ and the Boyz invisioned an indormed electorate which we have really never had and that has bogged US down witha system of governemnt that TJ and the Boyz thought would have evolved with an informed electorate... That is the problem... Democracy, as invisioned, is DOA... Been dead for a long, long time... And the folks who need to have power taken away are the same people who would have to consent to hacve it taken away??? This is why GUEST, GUEST has every right to quit playing... It's hard to play once you understand that there is no chance to win one now and then... I'm kinda down to my last election, too... As I have stated on another thread I will work for Obama if he gets the nomination ***only***-- and this is a major crapshoot-- because seein' as we aren't too sure where he comes down on reshuffling the democracy deck, he might be a Trojan Horse... Like a gambler, I'm willing to the throw the dice one more time... Our problems are well beyond policy positions and compromises between conservative and less conservative law makers... What we need to do is fix our democracy... TJ and the Boyz wrote the Contitution to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority... They probably never invisioned that the majority would one day be held captive by the minority but that is exactly what has occured... The South and Midwest have less that 30% of the poipulation yet they have well over half the power in the Senate... Actaully, what we have is 18% of the population controlling 51% of the Senate and when one factors in that it takes 60 votes to end a fillibuster when numbers get even more ubsurd with 11% of the population controlling the Senate!?!?!?... What we have is tyranny by the minority over the majority and that is why nuthing gets done that makes any sense in Washington, D.C.... Unless this problem gets fixed our country will continue down that slippery slope toward eventual ruin and chaos... The opnly way to fix this problem is for a Trjan Horse to sneak into the White House and use the existing tools that Karl Rove and Bush will be leaving and every bit of salemanship to get those 11% to understand that with them calling the shots, things ain't working... Yeah, it is the longest of the long shots... I freely admit it... I don't see any other path... Bobert |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Peace Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:23 PM The answer is simple. Kucinich should run as a Conservative Independent. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Ron Davies Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:32 PM So, the Sour Cynics Club is now in session. I wonder who the president of the club is this time--sounds like a tough race between Rig and Guest-Guest (like John-John?) So nothing has ever been accomplished by politics? Interesting. Nothing--like Social Security, woman's suffrage, labor laws, etc. No doubt about it--all the people who voted for such things would have been better off staying at home. After all, that's The Mudcat Way---or so it seems, with few exceptions--like Joe, Big Mick, and a few others. An arch, knowing, self -pity is so much more rewarding than actually trying to change anything through politics. And for those who want universal healthcare on a silver platter: Hillary wants to "require" everybody to buy it. Good luck. How will this be enforced? Obama at least realizes there will be people who refuse it---just as there are in Massachusetts, which supposedly has it. Much as Mudcatters may not want to admit it, politics is in fact the art of the possible. Universal healthcare, like many of the other advances will be a process--nobody will wave a magic wand for it. But after all, it's just The $ystem or Tweedledum and Tweedledee. Obviously there's no point to voting. It's just too bad those on the Right don't share this conviction of the Left. And you can bet Hillary will unify the squabbling Republicans like nothing else could. While Obama will get far more independents--and Republicans--in addition to Democrats. But politics is so dirty--we can't soil our hands. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:41 PM And for those who want universal healthcare on a silver platter: Hillary wants to "require" everybody to buy it. Good luck. How will this be enforced? Obama at least realizes there will be people who refuse it---just as there are in Massachusetts, which supposedly has it. This is the flaw in his proposal. (I agree that forcing people to buy insurance is the flaw in Clinton and Edwards' proposals.) Obama is saying that economy of scale is going to bring insurance prices down low enough for everyone to be able to afford it. But how can he do that if he can't guarantee that enough people will buy it to have enough economy of scale to do what he says he wants it to do? The answer is that he can't. But perhaps he doesn't really intend to. LH is right about your tone, though. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Ron Davies Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:47 PM "art of the possible",....... "a process" Cynics have no leg to stand on in complaining about "tone". Not you, Carol--but there are plenty on Mudcat. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 26 Jan 08 - 12:00 AM We've been through the cynic thing before, Ron. It's you who is the cynic. Kucinich represents the art of the possible more than any of the Democrats who ran for office in this primary. You are supporting someone who says he'll deliver something even he knows he can't deliver. Now that's cynicism. But the tone I'm talking about is your habitual sneer. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 26 Jan 08 - 12:04 AM Oops. I see that you are not accusing me of being a cynic. My mistake. Still, I agree with LH about the tone. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Jan 08 - 12:38 AM Yes, it is precisely the habitual sneer that is the problem. That is it in a nutshell. It's amazing how venomous some people get when political discussions are happening. Politics is indeed the field of the "possible". It has proven possible in most western democracies to provide a universal publicly funded health care system, but a majority of people in a society have to realize it's possible. They can't do that if the mainstream politicians won't tell them. Only Kucinich dared to tell them. Now, here is a brief history of Canada's health care system: ******************** A Brief History of Canada's Health Care System 1947 -- The Saskatchewan Government, led by leader Tommy Douglas, introduces the first provincial hospital insurance program In Canada. 1957 -- Paul Martin Sr. introduces a national hospital insurance program. Doctors, insurance companies and big business fight against it. 1960 -- The Canadian Medical Association opposes all publicly funded health care. 1962 -- Saskatchewan's NDP government introduces the first public health care program. Doctors walk out but the strike collapses after 3 weeks. 1965 -- A Royal Commission headed by Emmett Hall calls for a universal and comprehensive national health insurance program. 1966 -- Parliament creates a national Medicare program with Ottawa paying 50% of provincial health costs. 1977 -- Trudeau Liberals retreat from 50:50 cost-sharing and replace it with block funding. 1978 -- Doctors begin "extra-billing" to raise their incomes. 1979 -- Canadian Labour Congress convenes the SOS Medicare conference to fight extra-billing and joins with community groups to form the Canadian Health Coalition. 1984 -- Canada Health Act is passed unanimously by parliament. Extra-billing is banned. 1993 -- Mulroney government grants 20-year patent protection to brand name drugs. 1995 -- Paul Martin Jr. introduces Canada Health and Social Transfer (CHST), causing massive cuts in transfer payments to health and social programs. 1997 -- National Forum on Health calls for Medicare to be expanded to include home care, pharmacare and a phasing out of fee-for-service for doctors. 1998 -- Premiers demand say in interpreting the Canada Health Act. Chrétien caves in. 2000 -- Ralph Klein introduces legislation to allow private hospitals. 2000 -- Federal Budget offers 2 cents for health care for every dollar of tax cuts, ignoring pleas of Canadians to save Medicare. 2002 -- The Romanow Royal Commission on the Future of Health Care in Canada conducted cross-country public hearings. Final report was tabled in Ottawa on November 28, 2002. 2003 -- First Ministers' meeting results in a new 'Health Accord.' Targeted funding in keys areas (as prescribed by the Romanow report) shows promise. However, there are no accountability mechanisms and no restrictions on public funding being spent on for-profit health care. ****** Note that: It was Tommy Douglas and the NDP, the socialists, who first brought in publicly funded health care in 1962 in the province of Saskatchewan! It took a socialist politician to do it. You don't have socialist politicians in the USA. Without socialist politicians to lead the way, I doubt it would ever have happened in Canada. "Socialist" is not a dirty word in Canada or Europe. Note that: the forces in Canada which fought tooth and nail to prevent our publicly funded health care system from every coming about were..."Doctors, the insurance companies, and big business" and "the Canadian Medical Association"! Wow. What a surprise, eh? Their main concern is making a LOT of money, and they obviously don't give a shit if people die or go bankrupt because they can't afford to pay for private health care. Talk about turning the Hyppocratic Oath on its head! Since about the end of the Reagan era there have been increasing attempts by conservative politicians in Canada to dismantle and chip away at our health care system....why? So their rich pals in the private sector who fund their election campaigns can get even richer. The public has massively opposed any and all such attacks on our health care system...but big business is drooling at the possibilities. As always. They would see you air and sunlight too...at a hefty price...if they could figure out how to round it all up and control it. Those too poor to buy it could just stop breathing... |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 26 Jan 08 - 01:56 AM Here's video and text of Dennis' announcement... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tApDGClSSI http://www.dennis4president.com/go/homepage-items/kucinich-withdraws-from-presidential-race/ |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: akenaton Date: 26 Jan 08 - 07:19 PM "contempt" for Obama. "Don't listen to the compromisers". And this is about Democrats. Ake may have an excuse--he doesn't have to live with the consequences." A low blow Ron, from one who seems to have no problem living with the consequences of American Capitalist domestic and foreign policy. In fact Ron, you are becoming a cheerleader for the system which gave us ...half a million dead Iraqi men, women and children. Who knows how many mutilated "walking wounded". US and UK troops..... dead blind or limbless. On the domestic front, a system which refuses its people basic free heathcare. A system which denies its people a realistic minimum wage. Just like the Dems who said they opposed the war then voted to fund it, you support a political system which heaps horror on horror, injustice on injustice. I repeat, nothing has ever been achieved by the political process alone. Politics is a mechanism to resist change. All the real changes have been brought about by "people power", People telling this one party nation that they will accept the lies no longer....Ake |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Jan 08 - 08:16 AM "Politics is a mechanism to resist change". Take a look at South Carolina, Ake. Seems to me change is happening. And you have to seize your opportunities when you have them. Hope your cynicism is not so deep that you can't see this. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Jan 08 - 08:39 AM Obviously Jesse Jackson also won the South Carolina primary. But there are major differences between Jackson's candidacy and that of Obama--which I detail in the Democratic primary thread. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: the lemonade lady Date: 27 Jan 08 - 09:18 AM What do you write? How about 'get out of there, it could be dangerous'? Sal |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Jan 08 - 11:08 AM "'get out of there, it could be dangerous'" Good idea! |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Jan 08 - 11:17 AM Anything to discourage Obama and his supporters, eh Rig? Sounds like a bit of desperation on your part. And perhaps not that much genuine concern. But of course I could be wrong. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Jan 08 - 11:19 AM "But of course I could be wrong." NAW! |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Jan 08 - 11:34 AM Rig-- It's just that your concern for his safety is not totally convincing. Whereas your opposition to him is quite convincing. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Stringsinger Date: 27 Jan 08 - 12:23 PM Carol, I'm with you on this. To hell with the Three Stooges. Dennis is the only voice in the wilderness. He needs to hang on to his seat in Cleveland. Frank |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Jan 08 - 03:14 PM There wasn't much of anything else he could have done. His Democratic opponents--you've got to wonder who they're working for--were using his run for the White House against him. If he doesn't retain his Congressional seat, nobody will be in a position to speak out for the American people. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 27 Jan 08 - 03:21 PM Well, that isn't exactly true. There is still Russ Feingold and his merry band of Progressive Patriots. But it's true, very few in Congress look, sound, and walk like progressives besides the two of them, and neither of them get much coverage these days. Feingold more than Kucinich, except when Dennis is running for president. Sure hope he gets re-elected. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 27 Jan 08 - 09:26 PM Frank, here's an updated blog post from Dennis. It's got the link to the 'Integrity Now' website (which only has a form for joining so far), and also the Integrity Now Yahoo Groups listserve page. If you want to be involved in the work that will go forward around the work that Dennis has started, you might want to join up with one or both of these sites... Dennis' Blog |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Stringsinger Date: 28 Jan 08 - 12:21 PM Will do Carol. Thanks. Frank |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 08 - 12:45 PM Here's the latest news from Dennis Kucinich: ************************* Corporate media strategy: silence Kucinich, then remove him from office Over the past several weeks, the alphabets of corporate media dug their heels in the court system and in the federal agency established to protect and advocate fairness on the public airwaves (FCC), to keep Dennis Kucinich from bringing his ideas – your ideas – to the Democratic Presidential debates: ABC ... NBC ... GE ... MSNBC ... CNN. On Sunday, another major media corporation, The (Cleveland) Plain Dealer newspaper, followed the lead established by the national media, and demanded that Dennis Kucinich should be removed from his office as Congressman in the 10th District of Ohio. Why? "his defiance" of Congressional go-along, get-along policies. It's time fight back against the powers that are trying to steal your power as citizens of the United States of America. http://kucinich.us/contribute.html So far, the corporate media have succeeded in setting the agenda. They have argued, for their own profit-driven and self-serving interests, that private corporations are exempt by the First Amendment from providing full and fair and non-pre-selected information to you, the people -- even though freedom of speech is your right under the U.S. Constitution. They have manipulated the political and judicial process to ensure that private media corporations will decide what you can hear, what you can see, what you can read, and what you are allowed to know. But, when media influence over news and information becomes media control of our government, it's time to rise up in protest in defense of ourselves. http://kucinich.us/contribute.html Please, watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqMYxKkOz8k Let your family and friends know that it was not enough to keep Congressman Kucinich out of the Presidential debates. Now, they want to remove him from the U.S. Congress. The only way to fight back is to contribute to his re-election campaign so he can continue to represent you: ending the war in Iraq and bringing those trillions of dollars back home; a national health care system for all Americans, an end to NAFTA and other trade agreements that have outsourced millions of American jobs; restoration of our civil liberties; an environmental program that will ensure our energy independence and create untold new jobs. Don't let the corporate media take everything away from you. Help re-elect Congressman Dennis Kucinich. The strongest and truest voice you have is the one they are trying the hardest to silence: Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich. Thank you, The Kucinich for Congress Campaign ********************** It's incredible the lengths that these people in the corporatocracy are going to to put Dennis Kucinich out of business. It's like a herd of elephants getting together to annihilate a single mouse. How can they be this afraid of one solitary Congressman who speaks out against the $ySStem? Is he really such a profound threat to all that entrenched power in Washington? Or is it just the complete arrogance of people who are so used to getting their own way that, like a Mafia boss in a big city, they will simply not tolerate anyone on their turf who doesn't cooperate 100%? I suspect it's the latter. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 28 Jan 08 - 11:33 PM I think it's a little (or maybe a lot) of both, LH. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Richard Bridge Date: 29 Jan 08 - 03:21 AM link to offending article |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Richard Bridge Date: 29 Jan 08 - 03:21 AM Oh, and 100 |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jan 08 - 05:30 AM His consistency in standing up for his ideals obviously appalls them.... ;-) And it really bugs them that they can't find any dirt on him either. Oh well, they can just paint him as a dangerous radical...a dreamer who needs to be replaced by someone much more "reasonable" who can compromise and work with the insiders in Washington. Another insider, that is... |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Mar 08 - 10:02 PM Dennis is in danger of losing his seat in Ohio! |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Mar 08 - 10:09 PM Uh-huh. That's because the corporate powers that be who kept him out of the debates have spent many millions of dollars to fill the Ohio TV with bogus ads making Kucinich look like a disaster to the people of Ohio. They have done everything possible that they could to make sure he doesn't get back into Congress, short of killing him. Dennis Kucinich didn't have the money to fight back effectively in the presidential campaign...despite being the candidate with the best platform...and he doesn't have the money to fight back effectively on TV in Ohio against the corporatocracy. If he is tossed out, this will simply prove once again that Big Money runs the system. How? By dominating the airwaves with short, phony little sound bites that create an impression in the average voter's mind. He who dominates the airwaves wins the election. Dead simple. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 05 Mar 08 - 11:35 AM If he gets unelected, I hope he runs for president as a third party candidate in the general election. I hope Ron Paul does the same. That would make for a hell of a great election. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Mar 08 - 11:45 AM Yes, it would. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Mar 08 - 02:47 PM Two losers for the price of one. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Mar 08 - 03:34 PM No, two idealists with the funding of one. ;-) |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Don Firth Date: 05 Mar 08 - 07:52 PM Looks like things are going to have to get a lot worse before people wake up. Maybe, like the prize mules, you have to get their attention. The system schtinx!! Don Firth |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,Guest Date: 05 Mar 08 - 08:57 PM Ron Paul surprised me with his strong showing last night. If he went indie, it would be an interesting race--anti-war candidates running indie on both sides of the divide. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Mar 08 - 09:18 PM Yeah, given McCain's liberal credentials, Ron Paul could probably elect any Democrat on the ticket. Kucinich won his race, by the way. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,Guest Date: 05 Mar 08 - 09:44 PM Yeah, that was great news. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 05 Mar 08 - 11:45 PM Woo Hoo!!! Thanks for the update, Riginslinger! Two losers for the price of one. Two spoilers for the price of one. They would keep the real issues in the forefront of the race, which is where they should be. We know that won't happen in a race between McCain and either Hillary or Obama. However, since Dennis has kept his seat in the House, he'll be able to continue to do it from there. This is good news. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Mar 08 - 11:48 PM Yes, it is. Bravo, Dennis! Those dirty corporate-sponsored TV ads did not knock him down. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 06 Mar 08 - 04:49 AM Hmmm... now that I think about it, I think it's just the primary that Dennis won. I don't know if he has any Republican challengers for the vote in November, but I guess I was premature when I said he has kept his seat. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Richard Bridge Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:36 AM Good news anyway. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Riginslinger Date: 06 Mar 08 - 08:40 AM The media is calling Kucinich's district "safely Democratic." |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 06 Mar 08 - 01:10 PM Yeah, I'm not overly worried, but I'll feel better about it after vote in November. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Mar 08 - 11:43 AM Well, now, listen to the latest: In Ohio's primary election in the 10th Congressional District last week, 10,000 registered Republicans switched their party affiliation on election day and became "Democrats for a Day" - allowing them to try to unseat the one Congressman who has been a national leader on every issue that reflects the core values of real Democrats: Rep. Dennis Kucinich. 10,000 Republicans in one Congressional District! In a race where his opposition was supported by Republican media, Republican contributors, Republican advisors, and a Republican political agenda. In a special video message from Dennis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WTEhYzEuzs he explains what happened, why, and how you can help to meet the challenge that will surely be mounted again to put that seat in the Republican "win column" in November. They tried. They failed. But, they'll try again. With your support, we stopped them last week. And with your continued help, we can demonstrate in the next 10 days that we intend to stop them in November - but only with your help. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Riginslinger Date: 10 Mar 08 - 11:49 AM Hopefully, they'll fail again. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 10 Mar 08 - 02:14 PM Apparently large numbers of Republicans are voting for Hillary in the primaries because they don't want McCain to have to run against Obama. The Republicans sound pretty desperate in this election. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: akenaton Date: 10 Mar 08 - 04:36 PM Tactical voting eh?? Hurrah for democracy and the good old USA!! |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Riginslinger Date: 10 Mar 08 - 05:01 PM "Apparently large numbers of Republicans are voting for Hillary in the primaries because they don't want McCain to have to run against Obama." They must want McCain to lose! |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Mar 08 - 10:45 PM That depends on how they rate Hillary's chances, Rinslinger. ;-) Perhaps they think she is the one guaranteed to lose to McCaine. Yup, looks to me like everyone out there is so danged smart that they've got this thing all figured out in advance, specially the people on Mudcat...just ask 'em and they'll tell you all about it! Funny thing, though, that they can't agree on it amongst themselves. LOL! A regular bunch of geniuses we have here, but "if you're all so smart, why ain'tcha rich?" to quote an old phrase. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Riginslinger Date: 10 Mar 08 - 10:54 PM Actually, the exit polls reveal that didn't actually happen, so if I want to get rich I won't have Rush Limbaugh ask people to bring me money. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Mar 08 - 11:07 PM I'm not sure I know how you could get him to do that anyway... |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 10 Mar 08 - 11:51 PM Some polls are suggesting that Hillary might not be able to win against McCain. This is probably because a lot of people who might just stay at home if it's a race between McCain and Obama would go out to specifically vote against Hillary if it was a race between her and McCain. There's a lot of people who really hate Hillary. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,JTS Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:07 AM Before the Texas primary, I heard on NPR that national poles put it something like 55-41 Obama over McCain and 47-44 Hillary over McCain. If you were a Texas Republican, voting strategically, who would you vote for? And after leaving the Democratic Polling booth, would you really tell an exit poler what you had done? If you answered the exit pole taker honestly, it would ruin your strategy. Also, Obama lost a squeaker in the primary, but clobbered her in the caucus in Texas. I think a part of that was people who were willing to make a strategic vote in private but did not have the stones to do so in a public caucus. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Mar 08 - 01:33 AM "I'm not sure I know how you could get him to do that anyway..." You just say, "Hey Rush, I'll bet you can't get people to bring me money. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: CarolC Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:49 AM LOL |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:31 PM Heh! Heh! Good one, Rinslinger. "I heard on NPR that national poles put it something like 55-41 Obama over McCain and 47-44 Hillary over McCain." No! Not true. It was national polls that did that. National Poles, on the other hand, voted solidly for a diet heavy in pickles and borscht regardless of which candidate they backed, but were evenly split on Obama's or Hillary's chances to beat McCain. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: GUEST,JTS Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:42 PM the National Poles are just a bunch of flag wavers. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:46 PM I thought the National Poles were invading the UK. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich dropping out of race From: Richard Bridge Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:52 PM Correct, Rig, but at least we can afford plumbers now. |