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BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?

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Riginslinger 17 Mar 10 - 06:01 PM
Rapparee 17 Mar 10 - 06:02 PM
Amergin 17 Mar 10 - 06:12 PM
Bill D 17 Mar 10 - 06:23 PM
Bill D 17 Mar 10 - 06:24 PM
katlaughing 17 Mar 10 - 06:35 PM
kendall 17 Mar 10 - 07:03 PM
Riginslinger 17 Mar 10 - 07:16 PM
Little Hawk 17 Mar 10 - 07:20 PM
Don Firth 17 Mar 10 - 07:25 PM
DougR 17 Mar 10 - 07:26 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Mar 10 - 07:48 PM
Little Hawk 17 Mar 10 - 08:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 10 - 08:27 PM
CarolC 17 Mar 10 - 08:44 PM
CarolC 17 Mar 10 - 08:47 PM
GUEST,marks(on the road) 17 Mar 10 - 09:06 PM
CarolC 17 Mar 10 - 09:19 PM
CarolC 17 Mar 10 - 09:23 PM
emjay 17 Mar 10 - 09:30 PM
GUEST,marks(on the road) 17 Mar 10 - 09:32 PM
CarolC 17 Mar 10 - 09:40 PM
Don Firth 17 Mar 10 - 09:59 PM
katlaughing 17 Mar 10 - 10:09 PM
Ron Davies 17 Mar 10 - 10:10 PM
Ron Davies 17 Mar 10 - 10:11 PM
CarolC 17 Mar 10 - 10:13 PM
Stilly River Sage 17 Mar 10 - 10:17 PM
Little Hawk 17 Mar 10 - 10:18 PM
CarolC 17 Mar 10 - 10:30 PM
Little Hawk 17 Mar 10 - 10:35 PM
Ron Davies 17 Mar 10 - 10:57 PM
Riginslinger 17 Mar 10 - 11:00 PM
Amos 17 Mar 10 - 11:21 PM
Riginslinger 17 Mar 10 - 11:24 PM
Amos 17 Mar 10 - 11:27 PM
katlaughing 18 Mar 10 - 12:03 AM
Riginslinger 18 Mar 10 - 12:07 AM
CarolC 18 Mar 10 - 12:41 AM
Genie 18 Mar 10 - 01:37 AM
Richard Bridge 18 Mar 10 - 02:00 AM
Richard Bridge 18 Mar 10 - 02:02 AM
CarolC 18 Mar 10 - 02:06 AM
Richard Bridge 18 Mar 10 - 04:44 AM
Riginslinger 18 Mar 10 - 09:18 AM
Ron Davies 18 Mar 10 - 10:09 AM
CarolC 18 Mar 10 - 10:30 AM
pdq 18 Mar 10 - 10:45 AM
Riginslinger 18 Mar 10 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,Neil D 18 Mar 10 - 11:56 AM

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Subject: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 06:01 PM

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/17/kucinich-says-he%E2%80%99ll-vote-for-health-care-reform/?xid=rss-topstories


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 06:02 PM

No, he realized that something is better than nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out
From: Amergin
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 06:12 PM

This something is a pile of crap though. This is just so the Dems can say oh look what we've done, aren't we great? When in fact the bill is a gift to the insurance industry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 06:23 PM

This bill is the START... If we pass something, even if it's flawed, we have something to work with. The Republicans WANT to see it fail...just so they can SAY "you failed". They say "start over", and if we did, they'd have even cleverer objections and drag it out another year, so they could say "you failed twice".
   FACE IT... the Republican strategy IS based, at bottom, on the vested interests of big business and insurance companies who want to continue screwing the public in any way THEY choose. They want to sell less insurance to those who might actually need it, or make them pay more than it's worth.

Right now, just showing that we can do ANYTHING they don't like is crucial.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 06:24 PM

(and Dennis Kucinich has had it made clear to him that he does NOT want to be the one who caused the entire Democratic cause to sink!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 06:35 PM

If you can read this with an open mind and really pay attention, you may decide, as I did, that Dennis is no more a sell out than the man in the moon:

Health Care is a Civil Right - Dennis Kucinich

Each generation has had to take up the question of how to provide for the health of the people of our nation. And each generation has grappled with difficult questions of how to meet the needs of our people. I believe health care is a civil right. Each time as a nation we have reached to expand our basic rights, we have witnessed a slow and painful unfolding of a democratic pageant of striving, of resistance, of breakthroughs, of opposition, of unrelenting efforts and of eventual triumph.

I have spent my life struggling for the rights of working class people and for health care. I grew up understanding firsthand what it meant for families who did not get access to needed care. I lived in 21 different places by the time I was 17, including in a couple of cars. I understand the connection between poverty and poor health care, the deeper meaning of what Native Americans have called "hole in the body, hole in the spirit." I struggled with Crohn's disease much of my adult life, to discover sixteen years ago a near-cure in alternative medicine and following a plant-based diet. I have learned with difficulty the benefits of taking charge personally of my own health care. On those few occasions when I have needed it, I have had access to the best allopathic practitioners. As a result I have received the blessings of vitality and high energy. Health and health care is personal for each one of us. As a former surgical technician I know that there are many people who dedicate their lives to helping others improve theirs. I also know their struggles with an insufficient health care system.

There are some who believe that health care is a privilege based on ability to pay. This is the model President Obama is dealing with, attempting to open up health care to another 30 million people, within the context of the for-profit insurance system. There are others who believe that health care is a basic right and ought to be provided through a not-for-profit plan. This is what I have tirelessly advocated.

I have carried the banner of national health care in two presidential campaigns, in party platform meetings, and as co-author of HR676, Medicare for All. I have worked to expand the health care debate beyond the current for-profit system, to include a public option and an amendment to free the states to pursue single payer. The first version of the health care bill, while badly flawed, contained provisions which I believed made the bill worth supporting in committee. The provisions were taken out of the bill after it passed committee.

I joined with the Progressive Caucus saying that I would not support the bill unless it had a strong public option and unless it protected the right of people to pursue single payer at a state level. It did not. I kept my pledge and voted against the bill. I have continued to oppose it while trying to get the provisions back into the bill. Some have speculated I may be in a position of casting the deciding vote. The President's visit to my district on Monday underscored the urgency of this moment.

I have taken this fight farther than many in Congress cared to carry it because I know what my constituents experience on a daily basis. Come to my district in Cleveland and you will understand.

The people of Ohio's 10th district have been hard hit by an economy where wealth has accelerated upwards through plant closings, massive unemployment, small business failings, lack of access to credit, foreclosures and the high cost of health care and limited access to care. I take my responsibilities to the people of my district personally. The focus of my district office is constituent service, which more often than not involves social work to help people survive economic perils. It also involves intervening with insurance companies.

In the past week it has become clear that the vote on the final health care bill will be very close. I take this vote with the utmost seriousness. I am quite aware of the historic fight that has lasted the better part of the last century to bring America in line with other modern democracies in providing single payer health care. I have seen the political pressure and the financial pressure being asserted to prevent a minimal recognition of this right, even within the context of a system dominated by private insurance companies.

I know I have to make a decision, not on the bill as I would like to see it, but the bill as it is. My criticisms of the legislation have been well reported. I do not retract them. I incorporate them in this statement. They still stand as legitimate and cautionary. I still have doubts about the bill. I do not think it is a first step toward anything I have supported in the past. This is not the bill I wanted to support, even as I continue efforts until the last minute to modify the bill.

However after careful discussions with the President Obama, Speaker Pelosi, Elizabeth my wife and close friends, I have decided to cast a vote in favor of the legislation. If my vote is to be counted, let it now count for passage of the bill, hopefully in the direction of comprehensive health care reform. We must include coverage for those excluded from this bill. We must free the states. We must have control over private insurance companies and the cost their very existence imposes on American families. We must strive to provide a significant place for alternative and complementary medicine, religious health science practice, and the personal responsibility aspects of health care which include diet, nutrition, and exercise.

The health care debate has been severely hampered by fear, myths, and by hyper-partisanship. The President clearly does not advocate socialism or a government takeover of health care. The fear that this legislation has engendered has deep roots, not in foreign ideology but in a lack of confidence, a timidity, mistrust and fear which post 911 America has been unable to shake.

This fear has so infected our politics, our economics and our international relations that as a nation we are losing sight of the expanded vision, the electrifying potential we caught a glimpse of with the election of Barack Obama. The transformational potential of his presidency, and of ourselves, can still be courageously summoned in ways that will reconnect America to our hopes for expanded opportunities for jobs, housing, education, peace, and yes, health care.

I want to thank those who have supported me personally and politically as I have struggled with this decision. I ask for your continued support in our ongoing efforts to bring about meaningful change. As this bill passes I will renew my efforts to help those state organizations which are aimed at stirring a single payer movement which eliminates the predatory role of private insurers who make money not providing health care. I have taken a detour through supporting this bill, but I know the destination I will continue to lead, for as long as it takes, whatever it takes to an America where health care will be firmly established as a civil right.

Thank you.
Dennis


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out
From: kendall
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 07:03 PM

If it is a boon to the insurance industry, why are the Republicans against it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 07:16 PM

They aren't really. They were raising rates without cause to give the Democrats the traction they needed to herd a bunch of resisters into the fold. They're as much against this bill as Brer Rabbit was against getting thrown into the briar patch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 07:20 PM

The Republicans are against it simply because it is a Democratic Party proposal, and they wish the Democrats to be seen to fail. Period. They want the Democrats to meet political disaster in every way possible, so that they can soon replace them as the party in power.

Kucinich is anything but a sellout. He's that incredibly rare thing, a genuinely honest idealist struggling in the morass of an incredibly dishonest and corrupt political system which is run by corporate lobbyists for the benefit of the rich elite which employs them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 07:25 PM

What Little Hawk just said!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out
From: DougR
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 07:26 PM

Not so, LH, that's the tired old Democrat line. The Republicans offered excellent improvements to the Bill and got no where. Republicans are not opposed to health care overhaul, they just want it to be done right at a cost that is not going to bankrupt the country.

Kucinich's vote didn't surprise me a bit. He just doesn't like the Bill because it does not include a public option. He is a Progressive and it's a progressive type Bill.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 07:48 PM

I submit that in accordance with customary titulation guidelines the title of this thread ought to be a question not an assertion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 08:20 PM

I'd call it a wretchedly poor attempt at providing what you really need in USA health care, Doug, and I think Dennis Kucinich would agree with me, but he's holding his nose and supporting it rather than see something even worse result from complete failure of health reform.

That could not have been an easy decision for Dennis. The bill is not even close to what he wanted, and it's not even close to what the USA needs which is a single payer publicly provided FREE health system where medical care is a civil right, not a privilege provided to only those citizens who can afford to pay for it.

You're supporting slavery, Doug, but you just don't realize it. (I'm not talking about racially-based slavery. I'm talking about slavery of the general public to the private health insurance industry.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 08:27 PM

What were the Republicans doing all these years while they were in power if they have any interest whatsoever in health care reform?

Affordable health care is a human right, recognised in all civilised countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 08:44 PM

As an unwavering Dennis Kucinich supporter and as someone with no health insurance and no access to health care (which, in my opinion makes me a much bigger expert on this issue than anyone who has posted to this thread so far), I am very glad that he has decided to support this bill, and I will be thanking him for his vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 08:47 PM

DougR, get your facts straight. Most of the suggestions that were offered by the Republicans are already included in the bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: GUEST,marks(on the road)
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 09:06 PM

CarolC
You do have access. You can go to any emergency room and get treatment. I have several family members who are Regisered Nurses, and they will report that the emergency rooms see and treat folks without insurance all the time.
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 09:19 PM

Oh really, marks? If I get cancer, which hospital emergency room will provide me with chemotherapy? Or if I required kidney dialysis, which ones will provide me with that? I am developing cataracts. Which hospital emergency room will provide me with the laser surgery to remove them?

Which hospital emergency room will provide me with yearly physical examinations and health screenings? And for those services that emergency rooms do provide (acute care), I guess you think that people who can't afford health insurance can afford to pay the astronomical costs of going to a hospital emergency room. Think again.

You don't know what you're talking about, and neither do your family members, sorry to say. Hospital emergency rooms only take in people with acute problems and all they do is stabilize them and send them home. They provide emergency care. They do not provide health care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 09:23 PM

And I have to say, being lectured by people who have insurance about something they know nothing about whatever really has a "let them eat cake" kind of ring to it. 45,000 people die every year from lack of access to health care. That's the equivalent of fifteen 9/11 type events ever year. Get yourselves educated and stop being so ignorant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: emjay
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 09:30 PM

It's a fallacy that everyone has health care -- in the Emergency Rooms. What about preventive medicine, health counseling, follow-up? And myriad other things that we with insurance take for granted. The present system works if you have money.
I have friends with pre-existing conditions who now pay over $2000 a month for insurance that does not cover all their expenses.
My husband and I and our adopted daughter have medical insurance because he is retired from the military, we have private insurance because we both retired from the state of Alaska, and the oldest of us have medicare. We are also fortunate because we have doctors who will see us in this state where medicare payments are far below rates. And we have full prescription drug coverage under our state policies.
I don't think it is right that some of us have coverage while many of our friends, family, and neighbors have none.
I am glad Dennis Kucinich decided to vote for it.
I like the expression I hear frequently these days, "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." Idealism is wonderful. Sometimes we can't aford it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: GUEST,marks(on the road)
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 09:32 PM

Would you qualify for Medicaid? I think the conditions you detail qualify for treatment under that program.
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 09:40 PM

We are not poor enough to qualify for Medicaid. You have to be very, very poor to qualify for that. We are self-employed people with pre-existing conditions (one of which is our age), who are priced out of the market by insurance companies who don't want to provide insurance to people like us. There are millions of people like us in this country. Like I said, get yourself educated. If you're under the age of 65, you could very easily find yourself among these many millions in the not too distant future if we don't get this health care bill passed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 09:59 PM

GUEST,marks(on the road), here are two cases I heard of recently which were in the news:

A woman with breast cancer, needing a double radical mastectomy who was denied by her insurance company because she had a "pre-existing condition."   The pr-existing condition? Teenage acne! The hospital wouldn't touch her unless she anted up $40,000 in front. While fighting with the insurance company, she died.

Another woman with leukemia needed chemotherapy. Her insurance company raised her premium to $10,000 a month(!!!), which she simple couldn't afford. While arguing with the insurance company, she collapsed and died.

Should these two women—and many, many people in their same position—have simply gone to the emergency room?

I don't think it works that way!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:09 PM

Carol,

I agree with you, there are millions without insurance and it is WRONG and it IS a civil right, imo, and Dennis is an incredible person whom I am damn glad is there for all of us. I sent him a thank you this morning after I received an email from FireDogLake asking me to support them in their call for him to return monies they raised for him and also to return monies to people who had donated to him because he changed his mind and is going to vote for the bill. I cancelled my subscription to their email alerts and wrote the thank you. He has earned every penny and more, imo.

You are not the only who hasn't had insurance at sometime in our lives. I had no insurance whatsoever four years ago last Dec. when I went into congestive heart failure. They treated me at the ER and admitted me...kept me for several days. Yes, it was expensive and I had follow-ups plus new docs (specialists)to pay, but we worked out a small payment plan which we will probably be paying on the rest of our lives, but they did save my life.

Before that, I cancelled my health insurance in WY, through Roger's employer, when the premium for both of us went up to more than we paid in rent. I did small payments, sliding fee, and/or cash as I went with the docs etc. up there.


One more note: we also make too much for any assistance, but the hospitals have applications one can fill out which they will use to determine if they can reduce the rates you pay. I don't like it, it should all be free as noted above, but it does help. You have to jump through hoops with financial data, but it reduced my visits to the coumadin clinic from about $70 to $40 and my co-pay to the docs affiliated with the hospital went from $25 to $16.50. Every little bit helps.

Finally, DougeR, you said re' the Republicans:

...they just want it to be done right at a cost that is not going to bankrupt the country.

Too bad they didn't watch the costs of the unnecessary WARS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:10 PM

Kucinich's statement is a good start.    Too bad he didn't do it earlier--maybe these agonizing parliamentary maneuvers--"deeming" the bill passed, etc., could have been avoided if liberals had realized earlier that, as I and many others have said for quite a while, you have to start somewhere on health care reform, and this bill is a start.

It should have been obvious for months, in fact almost a year----as I've said more than once-- that the only way a public option possibility was going to be passed in this Congressional session was Olympia Snowe's "trigger"--which was soundly rejected not only by her fellow Republicans but also by liberal Democrats. She, not Kucinich, is the one who deserves credit for a gutsy stand.

Had Kucinich not given this less than full-throated endorsement, he, to say the least, would have had some explaining to do. Opposing his President's signature program and helping to insure that Democrats had virtually nothing to show for the their obsession with this topic for about a year would have not been seen as a profile in courage. More like a profile in stupidity. Especially since, as David Plouffe, among others, has pointed out, the Democrats will be pilloried for the health care reform attempt--whether or not a bill is eventually passed.

I hope Kucinich has the good sense to help to round up any last liberal holdouts against this bill.

There is absolutely nothing any liberal can gain by the defeat of this bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:11 PM

"for their obsession"


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:13 PM

Did you have your surgery during the time you were uninsured, or did you wait until you had insurance to do that, katlaughing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:17 PM

Not much point in reading this thread--we know where everyone stands, and no minds will be changed. Kind of like Congress, eh?

Good thing someone finally lit a fire under Obama to take the gloves off and get this moving. About friggin' time.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:18 PM

Read Michael Moore's impassioned comments on the health care bill here:

Pure Greed...

Very interesting, and right on the button. He speaks well of Dennis Kucinich, but not of this "health care" bill, which is really a huge gift to the private health insurance industry, and he explains why they are still opposed to it anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:30 PM

It sucks, LH. But it will probably save a lot of lives. Hopefully we will be able to build on it and make it better like we did for Social Security, Medicare, and equal rights, all of which were not the best bills when they were first passed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:35 PM

Yes, Carol. It's probably a bit better than doing absolutely nothing. And that would be why Dennis is going to hold his nose and vote for it.


Here's a brief quote from Michael Moore's article:

"Within days, the House of Representatives will vote to pass the Senate health-care "reform" bill. This bill is a joke. It has NOTHING to do with "health-care reform." It has EVERYTHING to do with lining the pockets of the health insurance industry. It forces, by law, every American who isn't old or destitute to buy health insurance if their boss doesn't provide it. What company wouldn't love the government forcing the public to buy that company's product?! Imagine a bill that ordered every citizen to buy the extended warranty on all their appliances? Imagine a law that made it illegal not to own an iPhone? Or how 'bout I get a law passed that makes it compulsory for every American to go see my next movie? Woo-hoo! Who wouldn't love a sweet set-up like this windfall?

Well, the insurance companies—get this—don't like the Democrats' bill! That alone should be reason enough to vote for it.

Now, you would think these thieves would love this bill—but they are actually fighting it. Why? Because it doesn't give them ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of what they want. It only gives them... 90%! YOU SEE, pure greed demands all or nothing.

The insurance industry hates this bill because it puts a few minor restrictions on them. Six months after its passage they won't be able to deny children coverage if they have a pre-existing condition. How awful! Government interference! SOCIALISM!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:57 PM

Sorry, Michael Moore is not the most objective observer on this topic. And my fellow liberals can moan and gripe all they want, but if they think getting no bill through would be better, they had best start thinking. As even Mr. Kucinich has started doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 11:00 PM

"It's probably a bit better than doing absolutely nothing. And that would be why Dennis is going to hold his nose and vote for it."

         Yes, Little Hawk, I think Kucinich found himself in a very tough spot. Hopefully, this will generate some sympathy for him. I portrayed him as a "sell out," but I can see that his options were limited. If he were to run for president again, I hope he does it as a third party candidate so I can vote for him in the general election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 11:21 PM

The OP represents a typical unthinking emotional attitude of coming up with a knee-jerk phrase to label a complex situation, enabling him or her self to dispense with it (while spewing some form of anger) without understanding the combined vectors involved.

I find Dennis' explanation completely adequate.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 11:24 PM

If "OP" stands for Original Poster, there was nothing "unthinging" about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 11:27 PM

Sorry, I meant "unthinking". Judging by the thread title, my assessment was correct.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 12:03 AM

Carol, as it happened, Roger's employer sold out to another company just after I went in hospital. Because the new owners were a big company, they were able to negotiate coverage for pre-exising and, with the sale of the station, health insurance went into effect that Feb, so yes, I did have insurance, though that is not why I had to wait five months before having the surgery; that was purely a matter of physical fitness. Even so, we are still paying off our portion with the hospitals and docs, five years later and there is no way Rog, who is eligible age-wise, can retire as 1) we cannot afford to be without his insurance, at the moment and 2)we cannot afford all of our expenses without his employment income. I do believe this will change, but it cannot happen soon enough, imo.

The whole situation of health care in this country, of all things, is absolutely criminal. This bill will be a start, as you say. I hope we can build something better as we go along.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 12:07 AM

"Sorry, I meant "unthinking". Judging by the thread title, my assessment was correct."


             Whoops! I can sympathize with the Congressman. But sometimes a guy has to word things so it gets folks' attention.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 12:41 AM

You were lucky then katlaughing. There are many people, including people who have insurance, who cannot get the care they need, and they die because of it. 45,000 people a year among those who don't have insurance, and untold numbers of those who do and whose insurance companies refuse to provide care. And included in these numbers are children as well as adults.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Genie
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 01:37 AM

I don't think Kucinich sold out all all. I think he just carefully considered the true options at hand and chose the most likely to move the country in the right direction re health care, even if only by a small amount and even with the outcome is uncertain.
The way the Republicans and the media and some conservative/corporatist Democrats have acted since Obama took office -- and, yes, with Obama being part of the problem by trying to be too centrist and "post-partisan" -- I really think if this health care bill, with some important tweaking, doesn't get passed, not only will our government probably not seriously look at fixing our pathetic health care "system" for at least another 20 years, but the Republicans will probably retake control of Congress & the White House within the next 3 years, put more Scalias, Thomases, Alitos, and Robertses on the SCOTUS, and destroy what's left of our middle class and our democracy.

Even now, the big money has so strong a grip on our media and our elections that it's very difficult for the people to get fair and accurate political news or to have their "right to vote" really mean much.    Another 4 years like the GWB administration and/or with people like McConnell & Boehner in charge of Congress and we may truly become a nation of the few very rich and the rest very poor, with corporations effectively being the government.

Had Kucinich been known as "the guy who killed the health care reform bill," it's more likely that he'd have been unseated this fall than that he'd have effectively spearheaded a movement to pull the Democrats or the electorate at large to the left.

The Senate health insurance "reform" bill is as unsavory a "sausage" as was the process by which it was made.   But passing it will allow the possibility of many important revisions which would otherwise have been much less likely.   

I can't help thinking back to 2000 and Ralph Nader's run for the Presidency. He insisted that there was no meaningful difference between the Republicans and the Democrats. He was wrong. -- Can you say "John Roberts" and "Samuel Alito?" Can you say "initiating a war in Iraq because a Saudi living in Afghanistan spearheaded an attack on our soil?"
Yes, the election was stolen by the 5-4 SCOTUS decision & by the purging of thousands of minority voters from voter registration lists, but if Nader had not insisted on, in effect, "challenging" Gore in swing states, Gore's margin would have been too big for the election to be stolen.    If true progressives put ideological purity ahead of political pragmatism, we may still have our "integrity" and "principles" but nothing else to show for it.

Politics is the art of the possible. (I forget who said that, but it's true.) Kucinich, when push came to shove, chose a path that's far more likely to move the country in a progressive direction than the alternative path would have.

(Naturally, some of you will disagree.   It wouldn't be politics, otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 02:00 AM

Has anyone noticed that as a direct result of the absence of a national health system the USA has slipped to 20th (or was it 40th?) in the world for natal deaths?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 02:02 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/12/amnesty-us-maternal-mortality-rates


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 02:06 AM

Yes, Richard. I would say that that state of affairs puts us in the same league with the Third World countries, but that would be wrong. There are Third World countries that have better health care delivery than we have in this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:44 AM

Scary, what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 09:18 AM

Richard - Yes there has been some attention paid to America's decade long slide in health care statistics over the last year or so, but when Rush Limbaugh was treated for a heart ailment in Hawaii a few months ago, he walked out of the hospital and announced that, "America offers the best health care in the world."
          Avid Rush Limbaugh fans believed him--and to a point he's right--America does have wonderful health care for those who can afford it.
          Like a lot of other things that don't get fixed in America, people who think all they have to do is be good and work hard, and someday they'll be a rich as Rush Limbaugh, simply want to leave things the way they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 10:09 AM

So Michael Moore wants us to dwell on the negatives.   What a surprise.   He of course would not mention that, for instance, as a result of this bill, insurance firms will be severely restricted in their ability to deny coverage because of pre-existing conditions or since payout limits have been reached.

With his simplistic and defeatist attitude he would fit right in here below the line. I wonder if he also thinks the US government planned for the Twin Towers to collapse like a deck of cards. Or that taxes had nothing to do with the original "Boston Tea Party". Or a host of other brilliant theories espoused by some denizens of the nether regions here at Mudcat.

It's interesting that the WSJ editorial writers say that Democrats .believe the bill will be the "crowning achievement of the welfare state".

Entertaining purple prose can be found easily on both ends of the political spectrum, it seems.   And the bill has managed to annoy an amazing number of people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 10:30 AM

But what Rush Limbaugh didn't tell you about Hawaii's health care system, Riginslinger, is that they already have universal health care in that state. In fact, what they have in Hawaii is even better and more comprehensive than what Congress is looking at passing into law right now. What they have in Hawaii, people like Limbaugh would call "socialist".


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: pdq
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 10:45 AM

Rush Limbaugh asked the hospital in Hawaii to send him a bill for the care he received. He paid them immediatly by check. He is what many call "self-insured". That group includes Tiger Woods, Oprah Winfrey, and millions of other Americans.

It is unconstitutional to force people to but things they don't want.

Car insurance is not the some situation, since we choose to drive on roads that are owned and built by the government.

You need no insurance or drivers lisence to operate a vehicle on private land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 11:08 AM

pdq - Yeah, it's the same thing as automobile insurance if you choose to live.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 11:56 AM

Are you sure Limbaugh didn't say America has the best healthcare in the world while they were feeding his narcotic addiction. Dennis didn't sell out, he grew up. Being an adult often means making hard compromises. This one was especially hard because the Senate bill IS deeply flawed. Some of the flaws will be corrected in reconciliation but probably not the major one, the personal mandate without a public option. It has been pointed out that Social Security and Medicare both started out weaker and were improved over time. There's no guarantee that this will happen after this bill passes, but we won't find out if we don't get something passed to build upon.
Republicans and and a handful of Conservadems (Blue Dogs) have really painted the rest of the Democrats into a corner where the need for some kind of legislation is absolute. I can't express that any better than Bill D did earlier:
"This bill is the START... If we pass something, even if it's flawed, we have something to work with. The Republicans WANT to see it fail...just so they can SAY "you failed". They say "start over", and if we did, they'd have even cleverer objections and drag it out another year, so they could say "you failed twice".
   FACE IT... the Republican strategy IS based, at bottom, on the vested interests of big business and insurance companies who want to continue screwing the public in any way THEY choose. They want to sell less insurance to those who might actually need it, or make them pay more than it's worth.

Right now, just showing that we can do ANYTHING they don't like is crucial."

   I live close enough to Cleveland (Dennis's home district) that all of my local TV and much radio comes from there and I can tell you he is being savaged in the local media. I can't tell you how many times I heard variations on the "they gave him a ride in the big plane and he flipped like a pancake" theme yesterday. I hope he doesn't become one of the November casualties that pundits expect as fallout from passing this bill. America needs his voice even if it is so often crying out in the wilderness of corporate America.


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