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BS: Kucinich files a complaint

Related threads:
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Riginslinger 04 Jan 08 - 09:17 PM
Rapparee 04 Jan 08 - 09:32 PM
Little Hawk 04 Jan 08 - 09:36 PM
Charley Noble 04 Jan 08 - 09:38 PM
Big Mick 04 Jan 08 - 09:43 PM
Sorcha 04 Jan 08 - 10:44 PM
JohnInKansas 04 Jan 08 - 11:06 PM
Sorcha 04 Jan 08 - 11:16 PM
Ron Davies 04 Jan 08 - 11:17 PM
GUEST,Texas Guest 05 Jan 08 - 12:40 AM
katlaughing 05 Jan 08 - 01:02 AM
katlaughing 05 Jan 08 - 01:17 AM
Little Hawk 05 Jan 08 - 01:40 AM
Ron Davies 05 Jan 08 - 07:52 AM
Ron Davies 05 Jan 08 - 08:07 AM
Bobert 05 Jan 08 - 09:09 AM
katlaughing 05 Jan 08 - 10:51 AM
CarolC 05 Jan 08 - 10:53 AM
Riginslinger 05 Jan 08 - 11:45 AM
Little Hawk 05 Jan 08 - 12:35 PM
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Subject: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:17 PM

Dennis Kucinich has filed a complaint with the FCC for having been excluded by ABC from the upcoming debates. I hope he wins. Who the hell do they think they are, anyway!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:32 PM

Since Reagan there has been no "Fairness Doctrine" in broadcasting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:36 PM

He has already been excluded from the Iowa debate on a spurious technicality (made of specially for the occasion by the powers that be). He is now being excluded from the New Hampshire debate.

Why? Because he says things that are so real that they are totally embarrassing to all the other Democratic candidates in the field, and the the Democratic Party Machine, and to the powers that be, meaning the national mainstream media and those who own them and fund them.

For him to be excluded is the sort of thing that is supposed to only happen in corrupt and phony political systems in despotic countries that are run by a de facto dictatorship...that is, not an official dictatorship, but one that goes through the outward motions of carefully orchestrated multi-party elections that are sanitized and controlled by the ruling classes.

How? By the simple fact that the ruling classes own the media outlets and own the political parties as well.

That's how it works.

Kucinich is providing REAL alternatives and they don't want the general public to hear a peep about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:38 PM

Dennis Kucinich is an excellent speaker and was persuasive enough three years ago to shift half of Maine's delegates to support him. He came into the State Convention with a little over 15% of the vote from the caucuses.

He won't win the nomination but he is a fine spokesman for his positions.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:43 PM

This is pure bullshit. Kucinich should be included, and decent folks should say so.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:44 PM

Well, doh, Mick...sure. But they won't listen. They haven't for a really really long time. 'Decent' folks seldom have the money to force anyone to listen.

As per the other thread, in US politics, it's money and connections. Most 'decent' people don't have either. YOU may be able to just ring up a president, or ex president but I damn sure can't. Hell, I can't even ring up my own Senators or Representative. I get the voice mail or the flunky.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:06 PM

I sent an email to my State legislators, and received a reply (by telephone) from one State Senator informing that it was an inappropriate approach.

When I asked what would be appropriate he suggested that I could "make a sign and go stand on a streetcorner."

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:16 PM

Well, John...you do have good old Brownback....(ducks and runs.....)


I sent a letter to our Rep. Dear Barbie Cubin about an issue I was concerned about. I got back a form letter (of course) thanking my for my intrest and concern about a totally unrelated, different issue. Well, we don't call her Barbie Doll for nothing. At least she isn't standing again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:17 PM

LH--

"...the ruling classes". Thanks for tying it to one of the all-time greatest hits in conspiracy theories.

Somehow, I suspect there's another explanation. It would be good if we all kept our eyes open for it--even though the conspiracy theory is so much more fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:40 AM

Well, personally, I think this party is over any way. I would love to see a ticket of Edwards/Kucinich - in that order - but it'll never happen. Both Obama and Clinton are in the pockets of big business and we live in a corporatocracy, not a democracy. I still think that the republicans will win anyway when they pull out the old scare tactics and run McCain/Huckabee up the flagpole. I'll be left in the lurch to vote for Rue Paul, or whatever his name is.
Cheers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:02 AM

I've LOVE to see Edwards/Kucinich. Don't think the GOP will win no matter who they put up there.

Everyone should be part of the debates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:17 AM

You can send ABC feedback, for what it might be worth, from THIS PAGE, though I see that is supposed to be just for the online news. If you really want to stir them up, it looks as though someone needs to start a discussion thread about it on their Forums' Page

There's more about how this came about from AP.

Here's a snippet: The network set rules to narrow the field. Candidates had to meet at least one of three criteria: place first through fourth in Iowa, poll 5 percent or higher in one of the last four major New Hampshire surveys, or poll 5 percent or higher in one of the last four major national surveys.

Democrats Joe Biden and Chris Dodd took some of the pressure off ABC by quitting the race Thursday night.

"In previous debates where the stage was more crowded you had to make sure all of the candidates got fair time," said David Chalian, ABC News political director. "Here you will have more time to go in depth on the issues."

ABC said it believed its rules were inclusive, while also ensuring viewers get a thorough look at the probable next president.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:40 AM

I'm not talking about a conspiracy, Ron. Not at all. I'm just talking about how people in the most influential positions in a system (in any country) act in order to perpetuate the system. They form an "in group" of their peers and their friends in business, and that in group is connected with lobbying, funding, media, and government at the levels where control can be reasonably well maintained most of the time...primarily through careful use of the mass media to shape public opinion.

Every now and then something slips through their net or they miscalculate a drastic shift in the public mood...and their plans go awry.

It's just special interests looking after themselves. That's not a conspiracy, it's business as usual.

My use of the term "the ruling classes" may have been quite misleading and inflammatory. I didn't mean ALL the people who earn money above a certain income level. I meant those people who are already positioned in the strongest way at the top of major corporations, communications systems, media, banks, the military, and government, and who are usually descended from similar people who went before them......and they are all people who make a lot of money. That doesn't mean that ALL people who make a lot of money are guilty of some heinous conspiracy against the public! It just means that traditional bases of power in any country work to perpetuate themselves. Not conspiracy, Ron....sheer bloody self-interest!

In so doing, they are usually fairly adept at winnowing out troublesome radicals like Kucinich or Ron Paul from rising high enough to rock the boat too much...and they find unfair ways of doing it.

This is so in Mexico, for instance, (where a small number of very wealthy families pretty much own the country and have ever since its independence) and it's true in the USA also, but in a much more complex way than in Mexico. The Bushes and the Clintons are two of the families who belong in the elite I am referring to. Kissinger is a member of that elite. The Rockefellers and the Kennedys belong to it as well. Most of the most successful and famous politicians in American history are and were members of that elite. They all know each other. They went to the same schools (in most cases). They hang out at the same prestigious places amongst the same company. They very rarely let someone who might truly change things slip through the net.

It's not just an American problem. It's a problem in just about every society on Earth. It's the maintenance of OLD power structures. And it has been so for the last few thousand years, because THAT's how established power perpetuates itself...through a select club or in group of rich and powerful who are accustomed to wielding power and are usually (though not always) born into it.

That's not a conspiracy, Ron....but it is a disease afflicting our societies, and it needs a radical cure.

As Texas Guest said, we live in a Corporatocracy....the corporation being the most pervasive and powerful means, at present, of controlling and monopolizing the movement of money, goods, and services around the world.

It's serfs and robber barons. 99% of us are included among the serfs.

Kucinich and Ron Paul both voted against the Iraq War from the beginning. They are both totally opposed to it, and they say they would bring the troops home without delay. That's why they are being marginalized by the $ySStem and its media, because those in charge of it have no intention of ending the USA's military adventures in the Middle East, in my opinion. That goes for Democrats and Republicans both.

I like Obama a lot, and I would like to think that he would extricate the USA from its foreign wars...but would he really? (shrug) I have no idea.

I believe Kucinich and Ron Paul would end the foreign wars. I think the $ySStem believes they would too. That means they are not going to get too far at all if the ruling $ySStem can do anything whatsoever about it...and again, that's not exactly a conspiracy...it's simply the aggressive maintenance of self-interest on the part of an establishment that has a program in motion and does not want anyone to stop their program. Think of the military contracts that are at stake! Think of the developers and oil companies who are tied into working in the war zone. Think of all the "special contractors" (mercenaries) who would lose their lucrative contracts if the USA stopped fighting in those countries.

Billions and billions of dollars are at stake, Ron. That's what it's all about. That's always what it's all about. Not anyone's freedom, not any grand moral or political principles, not for democracy, not for anything else but money. Big money. In this case, blood money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 07:52 AM

It's time to ditch the stupid, self-destructive cynicism that assumes that since money in involved in campaigning, the candidate is in the pocket of big money. Money is involved in campaigning--there's a rumor that it's been so for centuries, even including such people as St. John Kennedy and St. Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Get over it.

Each candidate is different.

The sour cynics should start listening to what a candidate says and what he does, rather than recoiling in pious horror from filthy lucre.

If you do believe that money is the only factor that determines everything in politics, you do in fact, as I said, subscribe to the conspiracy theory that money pulls the strings in all cases in all candidates---a singularly embittering and self-defeating attitude.

And one pretty clearly held dearly by a few rather masochistic Mudcatters, who are totally incapable of understanding the difference between realism and cynicism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 08:07 AM

"...what he--or she-- does."


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 09:09 AM

The FCC has become so politicized that it is nothing but Bush shills...

Here's how it works... Big media gives oney to Bush and tells Bush that they want to monopolize/consolidate media by voiding long standing regs on ownership and then Bush passes it down to his Repub packed FCC and they do what he wants...

So Dennis won't get anywhere complaining to them...

He'd do better to walk into the woods and voice his complaints to the friggin' trees...

The reason that media thinks it can get away with this is becasue it can...

Publicly owned air-waves, my boney hillbilly butt...

Beam me up, Scotty, there's no intellegent life here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 10:51 AM

They'd rather stick to their told-ya-so bitching, Ron, I swear. No thought as to how their words effect things, including bringing about their own strongly held, self-fulfilling beliefs. It takes a lot of effort to change one's words from negative to positive. LH, for all your espousing of metaphysics, etc., I am surprised you blithely go along with all of the negative, can't-do-a-thing-poor-lowly-serf bs.

I challenge those of you who always write negatively, who always complain to thirty days of NOT doing so. Thirty days of only writing/speaking positive things about these issues and YES, there are positives. Can you do it for thirty days? Will you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 10:53 AM

start listening to what a candidate says and what he does

Those of us who support Kucinich are doing precisely that. It's precisely because we are paying attention to what the other candidates say and do that we support him and it's precisely because of what they say and do that we know they are beholden to the big money interests. And we also know that money gets people elected. That's an established fact.

And now I need to go get ready for a Kucinich rally I'm helping to organize.

PEACE ~ It's not just for Christmas any more ~ KUCINICH for president 2008!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 11:45 AM

Anybody who doesn't see the influence of big money in American political campaigns has to be in denial.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:35 PM

I could get all defensive, Ron and Kat....(smile)..., buy why? I don't consider myself a cnyic at all. I hope for all kinds of good things in the near future.

I like Obama. I hope he does very well. I like Edwards. I sort of like Hillary too, although I worry about her backers. They all (Obama, Edwards, Clinton) have big money behind them. I like Kucinich even better...but his resources are more limited. I like some of the stuff Ron Paul is saying on the Republican side.

I wish them all well.

What I would like most of all would be to see the very best minds who are opposing the Iraq war putting their energies into a cooperative effort to form the next government and work together, rather than spending all this effort and money trying to knock each other off the top spot.

I'd ultimately like to see a radically different political system in place, and I have expressed it as best I can in this post:

A different system of primaries altogether


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:05 PM

Competition is warfare. Warfare is cruel and ruthless. It depends on subterfuge and treachery. It's objective is total victory, achieved by destruction of an "enemy".

Cooperation is constructive. It is not cruel and ruthless. It depends upon good communication and honesty. Its objective is progress and improvement, achieved by combined effort.

I am in favor of any changes in the political system...AND in American foreign policy...and in economic policy...and in social policy...which would focus on cooperation rather than competition.

And in so saying, of course, I am proposing something radically different than the aggressive, competitive approach presently dominating western society in almost every field of endeavour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 02:05 PM

Romney has spent 17 million dollars, and he is tied with Huckabee who has spent a fraction of that. What does that tell you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 02:12 PM

Religion is dangerous!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 02:22 PM

Anything is dangerous...when put in the wrong hands. Your mistake is to confuse the thing itself with the one who misuses it. Evil is not in a tool, evil is in the actions of one who misuses a tool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 02:32 PM

Both Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich were interviewed on Bill Moyers' Journal last night. Kucinich is not giving up. Good for him!! If you missed it, you can watch the video HERE.

Contrary to what some say about PBS being as biased as the rest, as far as I know, this is the only news service to give any time at all to Dennis Kucinich.

I fought like hell for Kucinich in my precinct caucus last time and I will do so again this time around.

NOW with David Brancaccio last night was on "Dirty Politics." Most interesting! You can watch that as well, HERE

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: michaelr
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 03:13 PM

Ron Davies, do you not have anything to say on this forum but your endless, repetitive kvetching about "cynical" and "self-defeating" members?
We've heard it numerous times now in numerous other threads, many of which you started. Feel free to stop anytime now, it's getting old.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 03:29 PM

I can't help but agree with Ron.

There are people here who's leitmotif on any of the political threads is to proclaim that it doesn't matter who you vote for, Republican or Democrat, because they're both the same, controlled by corporate interests. Every damned political thread, they're here, beating the same hopeless hum-drum.

Now, that is cynical and self-defeating!

Do they seriously believe that if Gore had been elected in 2000 instead of Bush, the world would not be a very different place!???

Now, really!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 03:51 PM

Ah...well...you'd like to think that about those certain "people" you are alluding to, but it's not so, Don.

I DO believe electing Gore rather than Bush in 2000 would have made a huge positive difference, and I always have believed so.

I DO feel rather inspired by the possibility of either Obama or Edwards being elected, although I would prefer Kucinich. I am not inclined, as so many are, to demonize Hillary Clinton.

I am not nearly as "cynical" or negative or defeatist as you imagine me to be, but I will not cease pointing out endemic corruption whereve it exists in the American political system. Nor will I cease vigorously questioning the tacit assumption that seems to be common in America that a 2-party political system is any kind of "good" way (let alone the best way!) to achieve an enlightened and just society. To question these things as I do is not defeatism or cynicism...it's a wake-up call and a call for radical change.

All of society is now being dominated by the Corporatocracy....NOT just the political scene. That's something that is going to have to be seriously addressed and challenged in humanity's next great world struggle for freedom. We may find some political leaders with the guts to challenge it. I hope so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 04:04 PM

Obama in the pockets of big business? In fact, his campaign accepts no money from big special interests. No money from the health care industry, and on and on. That speaks volumes about the man, no?

I think It's a crime that Kucinich was excluded from the Iowa debate. I would hope Mudcat supporters of any candidate could agree on that.

Chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 04:11 PM

Me too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 04:19 PM

I agree with most of what you just said, Little Hawk. But I don't know how many times on these threads I've read posts by you and a number of others contending that the candidates have all been bought, and although you don't necessarily say it, the implication--and the reality, if it were really as prevalent as claimed--is that it makes no difference who one votes for because they're all "owned" by the corporations anyway. Keep repeating it, and people start to figure "Why bother compaigning? Why bother even voting? It's all cut and dried, so why should I waste my time?"

Now, that is self-defeating. And not just a little cynical.

The only way the people can take the country back from the corporatocracy is if enough folks--believing they can make a difference--get sufficiently riled up to get involved in politics.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Bee
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 05:39 PM

Don is correct that in the end it is the apathy of many voters that allows some politicians to reach high positions they have no business occupying.

I don't see how anyone can deny that governments are influenced heavily by corporate interests, though. It's often been quite obvious in Canada, where with a much smaller population it is possible to actually notice such things as MPs and PMs being wined, dined and defined by the corporate elite - it gets reported in the news, b'ys, and the effects on our laws and policies are quite evident.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 06:32 PM

"The only way the people can take the country back from the corporatocracy is if enough folks--believing they can make a difference--get sufficiently riled up to get involved in politics."

Absolutely, Don. I agree with you 100%.


Here's the text of an email the Kucinich campaign has just sent out to its supporters. I'm on their list.

Dear Kucinich Supporter,

We want to keep you updated with everything that is happening with the ABC situation. As you know, they have excluded Dennis from tonight's debate.

Yesterday, the Kucinich for President Campaign filed an emergency complaint with the Federal Communications Commission claiming that the ABC television network is violating its obligation to operate in the public interest by excluding Ohio Democratic Congressman Dennis Kucinich from tonight's scheduled debate in Manchester, NH. The filing points out that Kucinich is the only Democratic presidential candidate who has qualified for Federal matching funds who is being excluded by ABC. Further, the complaint charges, the televised event is not a true presidential primary debate without including all credible candidates, but instead is effectively an endorsement of the candidates selected by ABC.

Besides fighting this in court, we are fighting on the airwaves by purchasing TV and radio time.

Supporters will also be gathering outside the location of the debate in Manchester, New Hampshire tonight to hear Dennis speak. But he should be inside at the debate.

Mainstream America needs to hear about the one real Democrat - Dennis Kucinich.

We need your support to get the word out that Dennis has the platform that America needs and wants. The mainstream media won't tell you. Did you know Dennis just won another straw poll? It was held by the Washington State Democratic Party but you will have to look hard to find it!



Don, I'm not even an American citizen or an American resident, but I care about your country. For one thing, I lived there for 10 years (age 10 to 20), so it's a very big part of my own background. (I'm really sort of a Canadian-American, to all intents and purposes, though Canada, being where I was born, is a bit closer to my heart.) For another, the USA is part of North America, and what I really am is this: I'm a North American. I care about what happens on this whole continent deeply, because this continent is my birthplace! It's a single great land to me, and a holy place. I am doing what I personally can to support the Kucinich campaign, even though I don't live in the USA, because it matters to me what happens. I will do what I can to support Obama or Edwards if they run for president. Hillary Clinton? I am uncertain about what I would do if she won the nomination...it might depend on a number of other factors, such as the Republican alternative, for example.

You see, it's not the individual politicians themselves whom I am really upset with. It's the Coporatocracy, the shadow government behind the scenes. It's the unwarranted intrusion of the Corporatocracy into every important process, domestic and international, that is crippling the ability of individual politicians in most nations to really serve their public honestly, and it's this subversion by the Corporatocracy that has got to be fought and stopped...BY individual politicians who have the courage to take it on and by the public in general.

While I am disgusted with the corruption of the traditional political machines that the Democratic and Republican parties have become over the last many decades...that does not mean that I am disgusted with the individuals who are members in those parties or with the individuals who are running for office (provided they are honest and forthright in genuinely serving the public, rather than serving a bunch of corporate lobbyists).


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 08:40 PM

With all that's been said, I still don't see how it's right for ABC to be meddling the the campaign. They've virtually shut the minor candidates out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 08:53 PM

Very good, Little Hawk. Methinks we're on the same page.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 09:36 PM

Yes, we are indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 12:16 PM

Nice to see your solutions posted...much more positive, LH. Thanks. I had missed your posting in the other thread as I've been avoiding it.:-)

I agree with most of what you've posted, as well as with Don.

I heard an intriguing proposal the other day to get rid of special interest money for campaigns. David Cay Johnston, from the NYTs said this in an interview with Senior Editor Brian Doherty of REASON ONLINE, about his latest book, Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at the Government's Expense and Stick You With the Bill :

Johnston: For 35 years we tried to reform the government through campaign finance reform, and it hasn't worked, and the Supreme Court is hostile to it. So I suggest we try something new—politician finance reform. I was inspired by the franking privilege. Have all the costs and expenses of being a member of Congress be publicly funded—an unlimited expense account essentially, but with complete disclosure including who they met with and the substance of the conversation—not every detail but generally what they were talking about.

Then there would be a rule that says, now that we paid all costs, including for keeping up two households, if you take so much as a free shot of whisky, you go to prison. Zero tolerance for politicians. If we approach this idea of paying the full real cost of Congress then I think perhaps we can get closer to a system where members of Congress are not thinking about what donors want.

reason: I'm curious if you ever get to the point, studying example after example of how government works to prop up the powerful, where you just throw up your hands and decide that it's government itself that is inherently the problem here...

Johnston: When people say a problem is intractable, I think that's the most un-American thing you can say. The whole idea of America is that we will solve our own problems. We recognize people abuse power, so we limit it—put in checks and balances. We will solve these problems when people decide they care enough to solve them. I think a big problem is many Americans are giving up on democracy. I never throw my hands up about these problems, and if I did, that would be saying that I don't think this ingenious idea, the Constitution, can work, and I do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 12:25 PM

There has been a concerted effort on the part of the mainstream media in the US to prevent Kucinich from getting exposure, or to shape any exposure he got in such a way as to make him look bad. They've been very effective in doing this, too. A lot of the people I encountered yesterday had never even heard of Kucinich. I was encouraged by the fact that when I told them about him and about his ideas and plans, most of them really liked what they heard.

This is why the mega-corporations don't like Kucinich (and will do whatever they can, including engaging in censorship and propaganda to keep him out of the public eye). They are afraid of him because if he is elected, he will help the voters and undermine the corporatocracy. In fact, he'll do this regardless of whether he wins or not, just by being in the race and getting exposure. If they were to allow him to participate in the debate, he would have made the other candidates and their corporatist agendas look bad, as he has done so many times before, and they know it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 01:08 PM

Well, speaking as a long time Greenie, I am finally seein' enough light between the Repubs and Dems to actually work for the Dems in my county if Obama or Edwards gets the nimination... Hillary, bless her heart, no...

Would I work for Kucinich??? Heck, yeah... He's as Green as there is...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 02:19 PM

Here's today's email from the Kucinich campaign:



New Hampshire, Iowa and Edwards

Dear Supporter,

For the record:

New Hampshire is the first state where we are aggressively campaigning. Due to the Party lockout in Iowa, we chose to focus on New Hampshire.
I am the only person running for President who voted against the war, against funding the war 100% of the time, against the Patriot Act, and who stands for a universal single-payer not-for-profit healthcare system. Nevertheless I was excluded from Saturday night's ABC Presidential debate, or four tone monologue as it was.
In answer to your questions about why I didn't support former Senator John Edwards on the second ballot in Iowa: I have serious concerns about his connections to a Wall Street hedge fund, Fortress Investment Group. While attacking others for accepting campaign money from Washington lobbyists, he is up to his ears in money from Wall Street special interests.
He made half a million dollars in a single year for attending a few meetings for Fortress and has invested a substantial part of his own personal wealth in the hedge fund whose portfolios are responsible for sub-prime predatory lending practices, Medicare privatization, and an entire range of corporate sharp dealings that are driving the middle class into poverty.

While I indicated Senator Obama as a preferred second choice in Iowa, Progressives have fundamental disagreements with him and all of the other Presidential candidates on most of their major positions on the issues.

We must have the courage of our convictions to fully support and vote for what it is we really want. For once, we must realize our power, stop playing tactical games, and vote as a bloc - which, as you know, is what the religious right does and why they often win.

We Progressives are in the majority in this election. We will win only when we refuse to compromise and vote with integrity.

Dennis Kucinich


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:19 PM

Well, anything that would de-rail the religious right has to be a good thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:57 PM

Rinslinger, I would agree with you on that as far as the political process goes. Outside of the political process,though, you will never derail the fundamentalist religious sectors in society...anymore than you will derail the sectors who happen to like football...or really loud music....or marijuana...or anything else you could care to mention.

It's a matter of free choice, and some people in a society freely choose to be religious in the way that you don't like, and they always will.

But yes, I would like to see them exerting far less influence on the American election process! ;-)

You'd like Canada a lot. The religious right here commands, oh, I'd say about 1 or 2 per cent of the vote here at the most...and they have no discernable effect on our political election process. They are virtually invisible. There are people who run here on a "Christian Heritage Party" ticket. They will get maybe fifty or a hundred votes in a town of 35,000 people...all from their local church congregation, I guess.

And that's at the most.

Any yet, I suspect that a majority of Canadians nonetheless believe in God or in something spiritual in their own particular way....but that does NOT result in a political movement like the religious right in the USA. The American religious right is an extraordinary phenomenon. I don't think it has any parallel in any other country in the developed world. It's one of the very oddest things about the USA. It's shocking from the perspective of people in most other developed countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 06:32 PM

"The American religious right is an extraordinary phenomenon. I don't think it has any parallel in any other country in the developed world. It's one of the very oddest things about the USA."


                      Yeah, unless you want to include the Muslim nations. There might be some argument as to whether they're developed or not, but...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 06:49 PM

Yes, the officially Islamic nations are really the only places that are very comparable in that way....although they're quite different, of course, an entirely different kind of society and tradition from the USA.

That makes the conflict between the USA and the Islamic people all the more nasty too, because religion is used to whip people up and get them in a fighting mood...on both sides. Mind you, if it wasn't religion, it would be some other excuse, because the real origin of this fight goes back to the West's desire to control key oil-producing areas through a group of powerful oil companies. It started with the UK in the Middle East (British Petroleum - BP), and the USA has since the end of WWII taken over as the main player, with the UK playing a much secondary role, but still playing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 06:55 PM

Here's a concept. I wonder if the master planers had considered getting people addicted to one religion or another, and then threaten to withdraw it if they didn't fight?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 08:06 PM

"The religious right here commands, oh, I'd say about 1 or 2 per cent of the vote here at the most...and they have no discernable effect on our political election process. They are virtually invisible."

I don't know about that LH, the present federal government, if you recall, is comprised of an amalgamation of the "Progressive" Conservatives and the "Reform" party of Preston Manning which was mostly represented by right wing, western Canadian, born again Christians. The difference between the Canadian and American versions is that the Canadians tend to keep their beliefs to themselves, especially in view of the fact that they are in a minority government situation. I feel that they will become more assertive when/or if they ever win a majority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 10:55 PM

"The difference between the Canadian and American versions is that the Canadians tend to keep their beliefs to themselves"

That's my point. Canadians leave overt religiosity out of their political dialogue, and talk about issues instead. It would be considered inapropriate in this country and downright embarrassing for politicians to use religion as a way of self-promotion or as a way of attacking their opponents.

In that way, it's utterly unlike the USA, and a good thing.

I'm not saying a lot of Canadians aren't religious...I'm saying that they don't tend to bring it into the public political dialogue...(nor do the Europeans). We see religious faith as a private matter, not a public matter. And so it should be, same as one's sex life.

I have no objection to electing people who are religious. No objection at all. But I would object to them turning religion into a political football come election time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 10:35 AM

Frankly I'm surprised that NBC is allowing Ron Paul on the Leno Show.

Does the FCC have a measuing stick for who falls outside inclusion in debates? Even if they did the Networks have the last word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 10:43 AM

Donuel - It just seems to me that there's something really wrong with allowing a network to decide who gets into the debates and who does not. How does that get to be their decision.

             Another thing. I watched the chairman of the New Hampshire Democratic Party on C-Span this morning, and he said that that illegal immigration was one of the top 3 or 4 issues for Democrats in New Hampshire. Yet the moderator of the debates for the Democrats didn't even mention immigration. He did for the Republicans, but not the Democrats.

               It's just another example of corporate control over the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 12:56 PM

Yes, that's correct, Rinslinger. They can shape perceptions the way they best want it merely by the questions they decide to ask...and the ones they decide not to.

That's a clever and devious way to shape the agenda and mould the public's view of the process. You just leave out certain key questions that ought to be asked!

The same thing is done all the time in public opinion polls. The questions in the poll are carefully crafted and worded so as to automatically deliver the very answers that the pollsters would like to get.

Flim-flam and chicanery. That's corporate salesmanship. Tell the people only what you want them to know, and nothing more. Create the impression that will sell the product.

What Kucinich and Ron Paul in particular are doing is they are refusing to play the standard political game and stay within the standard limits. They are pulling back the curtain that hides "the Great Oz". They are openly saying the things that the others in their respective parties will not say...and pointing out that the emperor has no clothes, when no one else will even remark on it. That pre-emptive war is an unconstitutional violation of international law and a betrayal of historical American values.

It surprises me, therefore, that Ron Paul has not already been screened out of the public perception by the networks, as they have certainly attempted to do with Kucinich.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 12:59 PM

The other day I wrote that lately what is not being said or asked is screaming louder than what is said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 01:24 PM

Well, that's certainly true Donuel.

          I agree with LH as well, about screening out Ron Paul. I would have loved to have been hiding in a back board room to listen to the gnashing of teeth when that guy in Florida put on that internet fund raiser for Paul that kept him in the race all this much longer.

          I suspect that wouldn't work for Kucinich, because folks who would contribute to him might simply donate to one of the major candidates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 01:04 PM

The UK used to have a "balance" requirement in broadcasting. Not since Murdoch.

Kucinich is entirely correct that media ought to be insulated from non-media interests, but there are two other needs in that are.

First, there ought to be restrictions on concentrations of media power - so that a powerful block of print and broadcast media cannot become a publicity machine (eg Murdoch, with the Sun, the Times, and Sky). Look what Berlusconi achieved in Italy withthat sort of unaccountability.

Second, there should be a balance requirement in policitical broadcasting during elections - here we had Con, Lab, and Lib-Dem getting equal time, and some fun and games about the BNP and the Socialist Workers Party (and now Respect).

When the "election" is internal to determine a party's presidential candidate, similar rules ought to apply.

Of course, simple broadcast policitcal advertising ought to be banned outright: it simply adds power to the wealthy - but maybe just maybe the internet can start to emasculate that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 01:24 PM

"simple broadcast political advertising ought to be banned outright"

Agreed! All the candidates should get to present their own ideas...with equal time each...in a series of televized public debates and televized statements of policy. And that's it, period. Equal coverage to every candidate. If the public is too lazy to even listen to them, then they would have no one to blame for themselves for the result, would they? And most people would listen in a setup like that. And think of the money it would save!

To allow paid political advertising in the media is simply to ensure that the richest players control the agenda and determine who gets elected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 01:54 PM

Maybe that's what motivates Fox and ABC to exclude some of the candidates. They run a credit check on the various campaigns, then they determine which ones can afford to buy time in the most expensive markets and which ones cannot, then they eliminate the ones without deep pockets from the free debates, knowing they won't be able to buy air time once the debate is over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 04:57 PM

Well...I think there's a bit more to it than that. I think it has to do with suppressing coverage of policie statements that are too far afield from what the Corporatocracy would like the public to be thinking about. But it does have to do with money too. It always does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:14 PM

Well, I guess that's right. The really big money is made in war, the build up to war, and using the military to monopolize markets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:50 PM

"The UK used to have a "balance" requirement in broadcasting. Not since Murdoch."


                The US used to have a "Fairness Donctrine," but Ronald Reagan developed Alzheimers and forgot to sign it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:12 PM

I don't know if it is still the case, but when I sold advertising in radio and in television, and speciality ad products, all political ads had to be paid for upfront, that is before they ran or were produced. The speciality products also had to have a union label. I think pay upfront was done to make sure even the losers had paid their advert bills, esp. in small markets where the mom and pop stations couldn't afford to write off bad debts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:22 PM

I don't doubt that for a minute. It seems like I've read about some political campaigns that ended up not getting their candidates elected and left people holding the bag all over the country.

                      That leaves you wondering, of course, how the people who do get elected end up paying for their campaign bills.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:25 PM

Oh, they just hand around favours and lucrative contracts once they're elected, to those they are beholden to. That's how it works.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:19 PM

I have posted this on the Obama blog and I repost it here.

OK, I have to reverse myself on Kucinich. I found out that he would run with Ron Paul as a VP and I find this intolerable. Paul is an avowed racist, and had views that run counter
to everything I believe in. DK has just effectively lost his bid for the presidential race by suggesting Paul as a running mate. What must he be thinking to run with Paul who supports David Dukes and is unseemly critical of African-Americans. You should all read Paul's Newsletters and find out what he thinks of Black people in the L.A. Watts riots. You should hear him rant about Euro-centric Americans and how they are being victimized by Blacks. You wouldn't believe it! Wow, was I mislead. He is also a closet Christian Fundamentalist.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:24 PM

I won't say I could forgive him for everything but being Christian, but where did you find this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:46 PM

Well, Frank, he claims he didn't write those newsletters: click here, but if you have more solid info on that and the other things you've posted about Paul, please let me know. I have been telling my sisters and a dear friend, progressive all that they do NOT want him in, but they keep thinking he's great.

If Kucinich really said he was thinking of Paul, he has lost my support, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:50 PM

Having just seen an interview on CNN that happened tonight with Ron Paul around this very issue of him supposedly being a "racist"...some really vicious smears that are clearly being spread noisily by some unknown fuckers who've been quietly hired by some other Republican Party candidate(s), Frank Hamilton, I think you are 100% mistaken about that, and you better check your facts and check 'em twice.

He spoke at great length about the injustice of how black people are being unfairly treated in the criminal justice system, and various other related matters.

You're chewing on a large red herring of the type that is released in all elections these days to ruin someone's candidacy. Just another "Swift Boat Veterans For Truth" effort is what I think it is. Dirty politics.

And you are spreading their message for them. That's your mistake, but not theirs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:56 PM

The word I got from the Kucinich campaign at the national level (and I am in the Kucinich campaign myself - on the state level) is that, and I quote: "There will not be a Kucinich / Ron Paul ticket".

Frank, could you please post this to wherever you posted that stuff?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 11:14 PM

You'll have to admit, it sounds really strange!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 03:48 AM

The only possible Kucinich/Paul link I can see might be that both are antiglobalisation - but I'm not sure I'm right on that, am I?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 10:53 AM

Kucinich is one of the few Democrats still on the ballot in Michigan, so he might do well there. Hopefully some Obama and Edwards fans will vote for him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 11:26 AM

Ron Paul doesn't believe in the separation of church and state. Kucinich does. Ron Paul believes that the Christian churches should "eclipse the government in importance".

Kucinich and Paul have totally opposite plans for health care. Kucinich believes everyone should have it, and that profit motive should not be a part of the health care equation. Ron Paul believes that the market should determine who can have it and who can't.

Obama, by the way, believes that everyone should be required to have it, whether they can afford it or not. He has no plans to remove the extra costs that result from the profit motive of the insurance companies - in fact, his plan actually subsidizes the insurance industry. With Obama's plan, everyone will still have to pay premiums, deductibles, and co-pays to the insurance companies, and the insurance companies will still make their profits by denying care. Michael Moore endorses Kucinich's health care plan. He does not endorse Obama's health care plan.

With Kucinich's plan, the profit motive and all of its associated costs (advertising, lobbying, dividends to stock holders, etc.) will be eliminated, and we will receive a higher standard of care for less money overall.

Obama says he is against the Iraq war, but he has voted to fund it. Kucinich has voted consistantly to not fund it.

Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich are good friends, and they share some of their beliefs about foreign policy, but their domestic agendas and some of their foreign policy ideas are completely incompatible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 11:31 AM

Thank you Carol that was very illuminating. I didn't realise that Paul was another religious maniac.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 11:37 AM

My own opinion, based on what he has to say about both religion and government, is that he's a dominionist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 11:52 AM

Well said, Carol. Amazing how refreshing the truth is when set alongside rumor and innuendo, isn't it? Kucinich is offering the kind of health care plan that already exists right now in Canada and in a whole bunch of other western democracies, and it's exactly what the USA needs.

Now here's what's going on.

There are a bunch of well-paid bastards in suits, people whose names we will never know, professional character assassins, who are professionals at hunting up dirt, making up false stories, and spreading rumors....for the highest bidder...their purpose being to destroy the name and reputation of any politician whose name and reputation they are paid to destroy. They naturally are sent after the most progressive politicians, and those whose policies might in some way alter the status quo in America in a way that would threaten the wealthiest and most established interests in the land.

They are also paid to knock off anyone who appears to be a threat that might take away a significant number of votes from whichever political machine or candidate has hired them.

This results in the most corrupt and cynical people in the race doing damage to the least corrupt and cynical people in the race! Why? Because the least corrupt and cynical won't buy the services of those bastards in suits that I mentioned above.

These character assassins will use anything....any scrap of information, no matter how misleading...to destroy someone's candidacy. They will make up anything, any ludicrous story they can come up with. They will misquote and quote out of context. They will misrepresent photographs out of context (and have already tried that one on Obama to try and make him look "unpatriotic" as compared to the other Democratic candidates).

Who pays these people to do what they do? Whoever is being most damaged by the people they are sent after, that's who.

Someone in the Clinton campaign is sending out some of these bastards to go after Obama. I bet it's being done very quietly, and we'll never know who did it.

Someone in the Republican machine is sending out some of these bastards to commit character assassination on Ron Paul, because what he is saying about Iraq and US foreign policy is screwing things up for the other Republicans (and even most of the Democrats).

Someone in the Democratic machine pulled strings to keep Kucinich out of the televised Iowa and New Hampshire debates, because his forthrightness and his policies make the other candidates look feeble in comparison.

It's dirty politics of the dirtiest sort, and I bet it's going to get worse. If Obama seems likely to derail the Clinton machine, these attack dogs in suits are going to be turned loose to destroy him, by any means possible. They will invent things to destroy him with if they can't find anything real...and many people will believe whatever they come up with.

Do you really want this to happen to your election process????

Do not listen to these scumbags. Judge a candidate on what he/she says, does, and stands for RIGHT NOW! Judge them by their platform. Because that's the only thing you really have to go on, frankly. "It's the platform, stupid!" It's not whether the man "looks like Herman Munster", it's the platform, goddammit!

Or would you rather let some muckraker like Karl Rove decide FOR you who should be president of the USA?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 10:08 PM

"...would you rather let some muckraker like Karl Rove decide FOR you who should be president of the USA?"


                        They let him do it twice before!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 10:33 PM

One of the things that makes me not trust Ron Paul is the fact that he's saying Canadians would prefer our system of delivering health care over the Canadian system. That's an outright lie, and I don't trust people who lie to me, especially if they're doing it to get elected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 12:14 AM

LOL! Well, Carol, it's either an outright lie, as you say...or he is just supremely ignorant regarding how Canadians feel about their national health system. I figure it could be one or the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 12:17 AM

It's the standard lie they tell people in this country to scare them into not supporting the kind of health care system you have in Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 12:18 AM

(It's the main reason we don't have a system like yours already.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 12:46 AM

Yes, I think you are dead right about that. It is the standard lie.

Part of running for office in the USA is repeating all the old mythology, all the old lies one more time so that everyone feels good and believes that you, the candidate, believe in America!

myths like...

"we live in the greatest country on Earth" (Ha!)
"we have the best medical system in the world" (grossly untrue)
"this is the land of the free" (as if there was no other such place???)

(Mind you, if having more atomic bombs and stealth bombers and cruise missiles and invading more other countries than anyone else does makes a place "the greatest country", well then, you're home free in the USA, right?) ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: bankley
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 07:55 AM

New Hampshire primary votes to be recounted. Go get 'em Dennis, keep sluggin' Ron....


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 08:32 AM

Well, slight thread creep here but I heard on NPR recently that when "health" of the general populations of the 19 most wealthy counties were compared that the US ranked dead last... Yet spent the highest % of it's GNP on Health care...

Wish I had as link... Did anyone else hear about this study and perhaps have a link???

Now back to the discussion at hand...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 09:30 AM

It rings a bell, Bobert, but I have no link.

My memory is that France came top for health, and the UK fourth, not sure on cost figures - but that may be the prune juice talking.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 10:43 AM

I have to correct something I said about Obama. Unlike Clinton and Edwards, his health care proposal actually doesn't require everyone to buy coverage. In that way it's not really universal health care. He's characterizing it as "virtually universal".

Basically he's saying that with his proposal, economy of scale (creating a large risk pool) will bring the costs of insurance down, and he's saying that by bringing the costs down, everyone will want to buy insurance. This sounds good, but if everyone doesn't decide to buy it, the risk pool may not be big enough to bring insurance costs down low enough for most of the currently uninsured to be able to afford it. It seems a bit circular to me. This guy thinks that Obama knows his plan won't work, but that it's not important because he knows he can't get it passed anyway...

http://www.spot-on.com/archives/holt/2007/12/president_obamas_brilliant_hea.html

Clinton's and Edwards' plans are just as bad in their own ways. If everyone is required to have insurance, how will it be enforced? And what if someone still can't afford to pay the premiums, even with their plans? What sort of penalty will they be subjected to?

Same guy as above talking about Clinton's and Edwards' kind of plans here...

http://www.spot-on.com/archives/holt/2006/04/post.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 11:39 AM

Like auto insurance in some states. You have an accident, they discover you were driving uninsured, they impound your car.

                   I could be like that with health insurace. You have an accident, they rush you to the hospital. They discover you have no insurance; they donate your body to science.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 11:43 AM

LOL

Or maybe, you get sick, they discover you have no health insurance, they put you in jail. Or maybe they fine you and you have to pay the fine with the same money you didn't have to pay for the insurance premiums.

People aren't looking at the fine print of these candidates' health care plans, I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 11:55 AM

Simply outrageous. The first responsibility of medicine is to heal the sick. Not some of the sick. Not just those who can afford to pay. All of them.

A society which cannot provide free medical care to its population (and to a visitor who happens to be in the country travelling, say, and gets injured in an accident) is akin to a family which will not give assistance to its own children when they're sick or feed its own children unless the children put X amount of money in the mother's hand first!

That's not a family, and it's not a society, it's a criminal oligarchy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 12:32 PM

Quite so, CarolC and LH.

However, here we have a system that compels you to take a corpse if you are in the specified famalial relationship, and dispose of it (or the state will and will send you the bill), and teh cheapest cremation canbe done is about £700.

So if teh state would like to take my body and use it (and not charge my kids), I'm very cool with that. I tried to donate my body to science to save that cost (my father did likewise) but the donees will not guarantee to take he body in case it is is no good for science, for example if there has been a post-mortem. So if they are not going to agree to take it, I'm not going to agree to give it to them.

I'm all up for the state turning Burke and Hare....


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 12:42 PM

LOL! I understand what's concerning you there, Richard. We have a sort of similar problem here. I don't know who will get stuck with paying for the disposal of my scrawny body when I "check out", because I have no children or immediate relatives like that who are likely to be there to deal with it.

The state may be forced to grit their teeth and pay for it! ;-) Although, realistically, I think they would probably simply dip into my savings and make me posthumously pay for it myself. That's my guess.

Since I won't need the money anymore at that stage, I guess it's a moot point.

What really worries me, though, is what they may do with my collection of model kits and my lifesize statue of William Shatner.

(Fret, fret!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 03:15 PM

I don't like it, but my friend who is head of the WY health care commissionof something like that, and who has been in the nitty-gritty sessions dealing with the issue, including meeting *Arnold* and hearing about his plan explained it to me like this:

Everyone has to buy insurance. Those who cannot will still be able to get coverage it will be based on their income/disability/etc. The reason they would make it mandatory is to get the largest pool possible to keep the costs down and the coverage up, i.e. cover all pre-existing.

I can see how this would make some sense as in my Rog works for a large corp. which is able to keep the ins. premiums down because they have a large pool and can negotiate lower rates. However, we choose how much coverage we want to pay for and THAT can cause undue hardship, for instance, because of the deductible and co-pay, my trip to the ER last Oct. cost us about $1600 after the ins. co paid their portion. I do not have $1600, so they will have to take small, small payments for a long, long time. Yes, having insurance helped, but we need ins. that covers virtually everything with perhaps a small copay. As it is, the monthly things which crop up and begin again each calendar year with the deductibles accruing over the year, etc. add up to way too much of our budget. One drug, with no generic available costs me a $60 copay every month. We don't get by one month without spending at least $180 for prescriptions and up to $250 with other related needs added on.

I don't like any of the proposed health reforms I've heard about. I will not be satisfied until we have coverage for every American. If it needs to be funded by a universal tax or something, fine. With the money we'd save on medical cost, now, it would not be a burden. I would love to see a Congress with the backbone to remove war funding and apply those trillions to health care for all AND with the backbone to say NO! to the insurance and drug companies.

A girl can dream, yeah?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 03:26 PM

In all reality, I don't see it working unless you include everyone in the system--I think Arnold's right about that.

                Otherwise, you would have people not covered showing up at the emergency room when things got that bad, and their costs would be really high. Also, I thought Arnold was using the concept of the entire group so that the state (gov.?) could go forward with a preventative program that would surely save money in the long run.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 03:32 PM

Look at it this way...if the USA gave up on its foreign wars and foreign interventions and overseas bases in other people's countries and scaled down its military spending by, say, 30%....it could afford to pay for all the medical care of everyone in the country from then on! And it could still defend the USA itself if necessary, no problem.


Results?

1. A happier and healthier nation.
2. A world which likes the USA a whole lot better.
3. Some military contractors who would have to stop building all those weapons and start putting their efforts into medicine instead.

Sounds like a plan to me...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:16 PM

Yes, LH, you are right. That's how she explained Arnold's plan to me and it made sense to me then.:-)

Rigin..I doubt our country would ever be *brave* enough to do so, but it would be nice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:23 PM

Let's see, you have to be brave in order not to go to war, right? So what's all this bravery in Iraq that John McCain keeps talking about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:32 PM

Ah, well, there's physical bravery, which is of the moment...and which is very desirable in time of combat or sudden physical emergency.

And then there's moral courage, which is a wholly different matter. It requires facing different forms of danger than the physical variety, more longlasting forms of danger, and it must meet the demands not just of the moment...but of the long haul. It must take the needs of many others into account, not just the needs of the men in one's combat unit. It is less common than physical bravery, and much more vital in the field of politics and social action.

A wolverine is physically brave, but can you trust him to do the right thing when it may not be in his own personal interest?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:50 PM

You can trust a wolverine to behave like a wolverine. More than can be said for most people, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:04 PM

True. ;-) But can you trust him to act selflessly in the interests of the general public?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:55 PM

Arnold's plan is underwritten, which means that people can be rejected for having pre-existing conditions or if they are sick.

You should look into Kucinich's plan, katlaughing. It covers everyone, and nobody pays any premiums, deductibles, or co-pays. Everyone who is income eligible would pay into the government administered, not for profit system, and all of the expenses related to advertising, CEO salaries, lobbyists, profits, etc would be eliminated. You would still be able to choose your own doctor, and he or she would bill the government administered system for your care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 06:04 PM

"But can you trust him to act selflessly in the interests of the general public? "

Wolverine, politician, same-same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 06:14 PM

A health plan that rejects people for pre-existing conditions wouldn't do any good. That's one of the major problems with the private health plans now.

             One place I think the Republicans are right, though, is in the area of malpractice suits. The awards on those need to come back to reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 06:45 PM

Here's some information on Kucinich's plan...

http://www.ontheissues.org/2004/Dennis_Kucinich_Health_Care.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 06:57 PM

Well said Carol. And the fact that he will it seem#s have to pay for the NH recount although he stands not to benefit makes him seem ever more the man of principle to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 08:27 PM

Thanks for the link, Carol. I had signed on to get his emails the other day. He has been my first choice all along. I like what I read about his Medicare For All. May it become a reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 06:04 PM

McCain will be campaigning in Michigan with Joe Lieberman, once again proving as an "all war all the time" candidate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 06:18 PM

Carol, please check this out.

Exclusive audio: Kucinich considers GOP Ron Paul as his running mate
Posted by Sabrina Eaton November 28, 2007 12:10PM
Categories: Democratic Party, Impact, Kucinich, Presidential candidates, Republican Party


Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 06:23 PM

CarolC please check this out.

http://blog.cleveland.com/openers/2007/11/kucinich.mp3

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 06:24 PM

McCain makes my blood run cold. I think he's still (psychologically, I mean) trying to win the Vietnam War...a war which his side very richly deserved to lose, in my opinion. A man like that is dangerous...though I understand fully why he would feel as he does...it's the way veteran soldiers often do feel when a war they were fighting in was lost. Many, many German soldiers felt that way after WWII ended. It just depends on whether or not they lost faith in what they once believed in or not.

Since he suffered very badly at the hands of his battlefield enemies, it's not surprising that he feels the way he does. Be that as it may, it makes him dangerous, in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 07:26 PM

LH - He strikes me the same way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 07:50 PM

Frank, I got it from the top people in his campaign that there will not be a Kucinich/Paul ticket. Those of us who were working for his campaign heard about this a while back, and while he may have floated the idea for a short while, he was informed in no uncertain terms by many of us, that we would not continue to support him if he ran with Dr. Paul. Shortly after that, we got the word from his top people that there would be no Kucinich/Paul ticket.

This happened, by the way, shortly before the news came out about the racist newsletters from those Ron Paul supporters. I have no doubt that Dennis was horrified when he found out about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 08:11 PM

Yeah, what a joke...

Dennis wouldn't appoint Ron Paul as dog catcher...

Oil and water here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 08:16 PM

Here you go, Frank. From the horse's mouth...

http://www.noisemp3.com/file_upload/uploaded_files/20071129230535_timoliveira_kuchvpaul.mp3


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 09:36 PM

Here's some video of Dennis talking about the New Hampshire recount...

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=156831770&blogID=346839242


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 09:42 PM

This one discusses the recount, and also the fact that NBC has decided to exclude Dennis from next week's debate in Nevada, even though he has met the criteria. There's a number at the bottom for anyone who wants to call NBC and complain...

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=156831770&blogID=346796541


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 08:45 AM

The networks are really distorting the process when they make these kinds of calls. In the Fox debate last week, the electronic poll that Hannity and Colmes showed afterwards indicated that the viewing public thought Ron Paul won the debate.
                  After a while they quit showing the results. Obviously, that's not what Fox News wanted the outcome to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 09:36 AM

ABC did that to Kucinich a while back. They did everything they could to try to hide the results of their own poll. In that one, Dennis got 13,393 votes and the next candidate down, Obama, got 9088 votes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 10:51 AM

Yes, the activities of the Corporate Oligarchy and their efforts to hide their blatant control of the entire political process are slowly becoming more and more blatantly obvious...as happens in an Orwellian system as time goes by.

I think there has been significant fraud involved in the last 2 federal elections and in some other elections as well. I think George Bush actually lost the last 2 federal elections. I think Hillary Clinton actually lost the New Hampshire primary. Perhaps it will all come out some day, but I doubt it.

It's the kind of thing that is very unlikely to ever be proven unless some of the guilty actually come out and admit their own wrongdoing. Not much chance of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 04:27 PM

Thanks for the info, Carol. I never thought that Paul would really accept a run with Dennis.
However, the fact that Dennis could consider such a thing means he didn't do his
homework. He shouldn't have needed to be horrified. The word on Paul has been out
quite some time. It brings in to question a judgement call.

However, it is criminal that Las Vegas (G.E.=N.B.C) should go back on their promise
to have him in the debates. I think it was wrong of NH media not to allow Dennis
in those debates. This exclusionary practice of the media erstwhile news corporations
of legitimate candidates from debates makes a mockery of the election process and
democracy in general.

I am disgusted with the so-called front-runners as well who didn't speak out on this
important issue. They are true power-brokers and only concerned with getting elected.

Dennis is the only candidate addressing the issues honestly. If it weren't for this Paul thing, I might have been able to trust him. I am heartbroken about this.

I will still call NBC and protest.

I am not supporting any candidate at this time. I will, however, vote against every
Republican who is running.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 07:19 PM

I don't know if you are aware of this, Frank, but it was back in November that Dennis said that. If you're only just now hearing about it, you seem to be getting old news. I didn't know anything about the charges of racism against Ron Paul until after Dennis said that myself. How long ago did you learn about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 12:22 PM

I think it makes sense to say: Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul have a common enemy--the corporate take over of the world--they just disagree on what to do to combat this enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 12:45 PM

Here is the latest email from the Kucinich campaign...VERY interesting.



Breaking News: Judge says MSNBC debate
must include Kucinich

-from the Los Angeles Times:

A judge in Nevada has just ordered MSNBC to include Rep. Dennis Kucinich in Tuesday's Democratic Party presidential debate in Las Vegas or he will cancel the forum.

Senior Clark County District Court Judge Charles Thompson vowed to issue an injunction halting the nationally televised debate if MSNBC failed to comply. Kucinich had filed a lawsuit seeking to be included just this morning.

The judge ruled it was a matter of fairness and Nevada voters would benefit from hearing from more than just Hillary Clinton, John Edwards and Barack Obama. Kucinich had been invited to participate in the 6 p.m. Pacific debate Tuesday, but that invitation was rescinded last week ... So set up a fourth podium.

Andrew Malcolm, correspondent - The Los Angeles Times

Dear Kucinich Supporters,

FINALLY, the principle that we are a nation of laws and not of corporate media control has prevailed. And without your support, your phone calls and emails and letters, this issue might never have attracted the national attention it has.

BUT, while Dennis is preparing to go to Nevada - court order in hand - to represent your interests, expect that MSNBC, NBC, its parent company GE, and dozens of other alphabet-soup corporations in the nation will start filing appeals on top of appeals to keep Dennis out of the debate and try to deplete our limited financial resources. Multi-billion corporations don't want Dennis on that stage Tuesday night. And they will do everything; spend anything they need to make sure that his voice - your voice - is not heard. The law is on our side, but the dollars are on theirs.

NOW, more than ever, we need your continued financial support to stop megalomania-media from robbing you of your Constitutional rights, taking control of the American electoral process, and hand-picking the candidates they want you to choose from.

Defend your rights today. Make a contribution today to the only candidate who is willing to challenge the powerful interests that want to control you.

They will try to outspend us, but, with your help, they won't be able to out-fight us. Please, contribute whatever you can to defend your rights, and ask everyone you know to do the same.

We won today, but tomorrow is another battle.

Strength through Peace
Kucinich Campaign




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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 01:26 PM

And I betcha no-one views the lawyer as a hero;(


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 03:34 PM

Well, given the number of questions that Dennis has recieved in past debates I'd be surprised if he gets a word in edgewise...But this beats a blank...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 04:52 PM

Good for Judge Thompson!

In past debates, it was pretty obvious, not to mention disgusting, that nobody was putting questions to Kucinich, so he had to ask himself questions. Damned obvious that they were trying to shut him out and exclude him from the debate.

Whether he wins the nomination or not, he has a lot to say that needs to be said, and I think it will resonate with a whole lot of voters.

6:00 Pacific Time. I'll be watching.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 07:30 PM

Maybe there's some justice after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 08:33 PM

Well, what happened? 0132am UK time, someone must know if the appeal succeeded or the whole debate was pulled, or the debate was rigged....


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 08:48 PM

MSNBC announced earlier today he'd be in the debate. As far as I know, that hasn't changed. The debate starts in 15 minutes though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 08:56 PM

Yeah, yeah - that was then. Keith Olberman just said 'Kucinich is out.' Didn't say why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:43 PM

They never say why when they'd rather people didn't know...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 12:15 AM

!@#$%&%!

And just what in the hell happened!???

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 12:19 AM

Somebody had the fucking Nevada Supremes in their pocket:

Representative Dennis J. Kucinich of Ohio was prevented from participating in the Democratic presidential debate Tuesday night after the Nevada Supreme Court ruled that MSNBC was not required to include him.

The seven-member court overturned a ruling Monday by a Nevada district court judge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 02:01 AM

It may be premature before reading the judgments (which I hope appear online sometime) but it does rather seem to help to make Kucinich's point (a valid one, I think) about the limitations on the "democratic debate" in the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 02:30 AM

This just goes to prove that Kucinich is the only Democratic candidate still in the race who isn't in the pocket of the coporatocracy. They are so desperate to keep the voters of the United States from hearing his message. And the reason is because when the voters hear his message, they realize that the other candidates are bought and paid for by the corporatocracy and are working against the best interests of the voters. If they weren't so incredibly afraid of him, they wouldn't need to go to all the trouble they're going to to keep the voters from hearing his message.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 07:56 AM

Well, the debate was just a mutual lovefest without him. Nothing of substance was raised or discussed. I guess that's what General Electric (America's largest defense contractor)wanted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 11:00 AM

The judgment will I hope appear in a longer version soon.

http://www.nvsupremecourt.us/documents/cases/50889.ordergrantingpetition.pdf

Three issues look legally very interesting:

1. Of principal interest in the USA but worth comparing for judicial review purposes generally - the courts had no jurisdiction because Kucinich had not exhausted his remedies with the FCC. Of course had he made an FCC complaint instead it would have been months before anything happend, so in practice that is a denial of a remedy.

2. There was no "consideration" to support a contract. Many jurisdictions find the Anglo-American insistence on "consideration" anomalous. The New Zealand and Australian courts have criticised it, it has no part in Roman-Dutch or Code Napoleon laws (including Scotland), the English Courts watered it down a lot recently in Williams -v- Roffey as far as variation of contracts is concerned (and the Californian courts take it that consideration is not necessary for a variation). Some English academics were expecting the US to produce the next big break with "consideration" doctrines - but I guess this was not it.

3.   Promissory estoppel would not provide a substitute for consideration. That is probably consistent with the view that estopel is a shield and not a sword, but again some academics were expecting the USA to take the next step in the development of promissory estoppel (pioneered by Lord Denning in "High Trees House.

I lectured it to my students this morning!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 12:49 PM

What you are seeing, people, is a coup. The destruction of your democratic system. It's been a long-running coup, because it started well over 8 years ago, if not long before that. It is invisible control of your electoral and voting and campaign and media systems from the top down by a monied few who buy out most of the politicians in BOTH the Democratic AND the Republican parties. They choose who your next president will be, and which half of the Duopoly gets to run the next administration.

It's the triumph of Big Money over popular will. The people have no real voice anymore.

So what you got was 8 years of Reagan, followed by 4 years of the Bush dynasty. Then it was time to switch teams (a periodic refresher done to make people feel there's a "choice")...so you got 8 years of the Clinton dynasty. Time to switch teams again....you get 8 more years of the Bush dynasty, courtesy of 2 stolen elections!

Next likely chapter? 4 to 8 more years of the Clinton dynasty....seems like the most probable plan...but I'm sure there are alternative contingency plans in place just in case Hillary turns out to be simply too unpopular with the general public. There are always alternative contingency plans, because the corporatocracy doesn't buy out just ONE major candidate...they buy out all of them.

In my opinion.

Kucinich clearly has not been bought out. Therefore he's being shut out...by dishonest media, a dishonest party, and dishonest courts.

That's a coup.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 04:18 PM

Thank goodness for Democracy Now. They have asked Kucinich the questions from last night's debate and given him a certain time to answer AND have provided a transcript and video of same HERE.

No need to throw up your hands in despair and declare a total loss. Dennis is keeping on as should we all!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 05:00 PM

That is useful Kat, and I shall watch it at the weekend. Now if we could figure out a way to get every American to watch it.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 06:07 PM

The basic reasoning for exclusion was made in Iowa by the Democratic party....they ruled that a candidate with less than 15% support was not eligible for delegates.

Obviously, this does exclude folks who have a lot to say...but it also gradually winnows down the 'official' debate to those who have any chance of winning. There is simply no way to include ALL minor candidates in all discussions all the way to the convention and still cover the necessary ground.

   Dennis...and Dodd, and Biden..... and even Mike Gravel can still make their opinions known...especially in this digital medium.

I am just thankful that Ralph Nader was not contending...and that the fellow from the Comedy Channel was not allowed to be 'official'. I like seeing different viewpoints, but I don't relish having them continuously shrilled at me after the majority of the country has made it clear that that particular blend of personality and ideas is not gonna fly.

I have heard Kucinich thru 2 campaigns now, and I know what he thinks...and I agree with some of it, but we need to focus on those who really 'might' win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 06:31 PM

On the other hand, people who can't get any public exposure can never hope to win.
                     I don't think I've seen anything recently as boring as the debate in Nevada. If Kucinich had been in it, it would at least have held your attention.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 06:44 PM

Kucinich met the criteria for the MSNBC debate. They even congratulated him on meeting the criteria. Then, apparently, they either ignored their own criteria, or they changed them at the last minute. This has nothing to do with viability and everything to do with censoring what the voters are allowed to see and hear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 07:02 PM

" people who can't get any public exposure can never hope to win."

true enough. It still seems to me he got quite a bit of public exposure....enough to convince most of the 'public' to turn elsewhere.

"...everything to do with censoring what the voters are allowed to see and hear."

aww, c'mon! The voters can see & hear practically anything, at any time. I can go listen to Pat Robertson and get HIS unique view on it all, but he is unlikely to be a viable candidate! It's a matter of sorting thru the different opinions...there MUST be a way to be fair without hearing everything every registered candidate says at every forum until the final vote.

(Rig..you think you were bored last night? Wanta listen to Mike Gravel's interesting homilies at each debate?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 07:07 PM

Yeah, I'll have to admit, Gravel isn't very inspiring.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 07:21 PM

Kucinich at least keeps up with current issues and offers some reasonable opinions....Gravel was off-the-wall a lot...but a nice guy.

Some well-known folks are mostly single-issue candidates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 07:38 PM

They've been trying to prevent him from getting exposure all along, including when he was in the debates and they refused to ask him any questions.

While campaigning out in public, I encounter more people who have never heard of him (and who are very impressed with him when they do get a chance to read and hear what he has to say) than I do people who know about him and don't like what they hear. This is a product of the media blackout they've been waging against him all along. It's very calculated. Take for instance when ABC refused to publish the results of their own poll after Kucinich mopped the floor with the other candidates. Kucinich is the only one who works for the voters and not for the moneyed special interests.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 08:15 PM

Kat, I agree with you that there is no point throwing one's hands up in despair. Dennis is keeping on, as you say, and so should the rest of us.

When I say that there has been a lengthy coup under way for years now to dominate the government and media in the USA with a single homogenized corporate-sponsored viewpoint, and that both major parties are deeply compromised by it, I am deadly serious...but I am not suggesting that people throw up their hands in despair.   Nope, I'm suggesting that they find every way possible to save their democracy while they still can.

I suggest:

1. Pressuring one's representatives to investigate what is going on, and asking them to see that people like Dennis Kucinich are not shut out by the main media outlets.

2. Campaigning vigorously against the use of computer-controlled voting machines, and insisting on paper ballots.

Dennis Kucinich has won a number of nationwide polls conducted on the Internet in which he came through as the MOST favored democratic candidate on the slate. The TV media have done their best to give it little or no notice, in hopes that most people will remain oblivious to it. Anyone who thinks that their screening of him out of the last 3 televised debates was based on such a fair and reasonable notion as "gradually winnowing down the 'official' debate to those who have any chance of winning" is akin to an ostrich with its head stuck firmly in the sand....quite determined to avoid any uncomfortable realities in favor of some much more comfortable mythologies.

Such an attitude is exactly what would suit the agenda of the controllers who have decided that Clinton, Obama, and Edwards are the only 3 Democratic viewpoints worthy of national televised exposure. They don't seek to discover public opinion, they seek to mould it to their own predetermined formula...no matter what. The public, to them, is just a piece of mindless dough to be kneaded into shape, shoved into the electoral oven, and baked.

And what does that get you? A "cooked" election, and a "cooked" presidency.

Has anyone ever heard of a state supreme court rushing to reverse a judgement this quickly before? In a matter of hours? I haven't. Can you imagine the urgency with which the controllers rousted out that state supreme court and got them to pass their ruling so that Kucinich could be silenced????

That tells you right there what is going on. They didn't do it because it's cumbersome to have 4 points of view in a debate. They did it because they are downright desperate to keep TV viewers from getting a chance to hear Dennis's message go up against those of the 3 compliant stooges who got to BE on the show...and who all say pretty much the same thing anyway. You get a choice of oatmeal 1, oatmeal 2, and oatmeal 3....but you do not get a chance to hear someone who is offering something much more substantial than oatmeal!

Now keep in mind, I personally like Obama a lot. I like Edwards a lot. I even like Hillary Clinton moderately well as an individual, always have. But I find the policies they are offering to be like watered down really weak lemonade compared to what Kucinich is offering which is strong medicine for a sick country! Just no comparison there.

That's why he isn't being allowed on the debates. He'd make the others' policies look as lacklustre as they really are.

And public support? Ha! Public support is being manufactured in the usual corporate. As always. BY the media! By whom the TV decides to promote. They decide who you're gonna vote for before you ever even heard about it, and then they spend the next year or so arranging it. That's how it's done in Orwellian systems. When are you going to wake up and realize you've been had?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 08:35 PM

Little Hawk..and others.
It is important to be aware of exactly what certain polls indicate. When you have polls which give Kucinich 'wins', what you are usually seeing are honest nods to some of the wisdom in various of his stances and positions.
At the same time, he gets pretty limited support in VOTES...which indicates some combination of doubt about his leadership abilities and electibility.

I have tried over & over to make the point that having some good ideas and being honest & fearless about expressing them is important, but not always sufficient to qualify one for just any office. He is a good congressman and a useful gadfly....I would not trust him to administer the White House. I am not alone in this opinion.

(this in no way suggests that sincere supporters of any candidate should not ask for 'fair' treatment as far as possible....it is just that opinions of 'fair' differ.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 08:51 PM

Okay, I understand your position on that, Bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 09:12 PM

Bill, why would you not trust him in the White House? I really want to know as i am fairly new to his camp.

LH, thanks for the very good suggestions!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 09:18 PM

Nevertheless, Bill, the process is not a democratic one if the corporations are deciding which candidates we are allowed to have access to. Only a very small fraction of the voters have cast their votes. The primary season has only just begun. Those of us who live in states that hold their primaries/caucuses later than Iowa and New Hampshire have a right to be informed about the decision we are going to make at the polls. Neither you nor NBC have the right to deprive us of that opportunity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 09:24 PM

It is important to be aware of exactly what certain polls indicate. When you have polls which give Kucinich 'wins', what you are usually seeing are honest nods to some of the wisdom in various of his stances and positions...

...I have tried over & over to make the point that having some good ideas and being honest & fearless about expressing them is important, but not always sufficient to qualify one for just any office. He is a good congressman and a useful gadfly....I would not trust him to administer the White House. I am not alone in this opinion.


By the way, this is mere opinion and speculation. You have no real basis for making such statements. Just because you feel this way about him doesn't mean that the people who choose him in polls are doing what you have described, nor does it mean that you are correct in your estimation of his qualifications for the office of the presidency. Really, Bill, these statements from you are quite a stunning bit of hubris.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 09:27 PM

It's very, very hard to say before the fact how well any one person is going to do at handling the office of President of the United States. It's just guesswork. In any case, no one person does handle it all by himself or herself. It is a position which must depend on the assistance of a great many advisors and experienced people who are around the president.

Accordingly, I don't think anyone among us is particularly qualified to decide whether or not Dennis Kucinich would be able to handle the job of president.

And he would not be doing it alone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 09:27 PM

Same goes for Obama, by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kucinich files a complaint
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 09:36 PM

Or me, if I should happen to be elected. ;-)


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