BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!

Subject: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 09:47 AM

A group called Bank Bosses Are Criminals have attacked the home of disgraced RBS boss, Fred Goodwin, breaking windows in his house and flash Mercedes car. Pretty mild retribution, I'd say, for someone who has ruined the lives of so many people and taken millions of pounds for doing so. Let's hope they continue to make his life a misery for having done just that to others – he deserves everything he gets.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 10:12 AM

And just how does this help the people whose lives he ruined?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 10:31 AM

Who is this?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 10:50 AM

"Goodwin has been at the centre of a row about the generosity of his £700,000-a-year pension. He stepped down from his job at RBS after the bank was propped up with £20bn of public money, which was later increased by an additional £13bn."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/mar/25/sir-fred-goodwin-royalbankofscotlandgroup

At least, he stepped down. Ours don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 10:51 AM

So Fred took advantage of a bloody silly stuation - Is that a good reason for Criminal activity ?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 12:33 PM

Oooh the wicked naughty people. I am like soooo full of sympathy for poor Sir Fred. Meanwhile the house re-possessions continue throughout the land as a direct result of his greed(and the greed of his fellow thieves).

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: goatfell
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 12:38 PM

and they should do the same at number 11 dowing street or better still just vote the torylabour party out of office

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 12:55 PM

Violence and mindless vandalism is never the answer to anything

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 01:00 PM

Sir Freddie the Shredder screwed up right royally he admitted it and walked.

BUT - (Now you all knew one was coming)

His pension was part of the deal made by the current labour Government and it was agreed to.

OK hands up all those who, under those circumstances, would knock back a £700,000 back.

"breaking windows in his house and flash Mercedes car" - pretty small minded pointless vandalism - but it matches the minds and IQ's of those who perpetrated it. Achieved absolute SFA as everything would probably have been extremely well insured, so Sir Fred profits to the extent of new windows and a new body job for his car, all at the expense of all the rest of the punters who pay insurance premiums. I just love the way the radical left always immediately resort to violent action after having really thought things through.

"Let's hope they continue to make his life a misery for having done just that to others – he deserves everything he gets."

And so Leveller do those guilty of causing criminal damage, but rest assured that they would not have cost Sir Fred one wink of lost sleep, or one iota of personal discomfiture. Due to the cack-handedness of Gordon of Cartoon and the rest of that corrupt, inept shower that masquerades as a Government in the UK, Sir freddie is laughing all the way to the Bank, but not literally in his case.

With his £700,000 a year pension he could afford to buy loads of bank shares and make an absolute killing when their share price rockets as it most definitely will. Then Leveller you can do some more "socialist" foaming at the mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 01:56 PM

Evidently I am not of "the radical left" because I do NOT see the sense of vandalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 02:12 PM

Yeah - class hatred - that'll solve our problems! maybe we can improve things even more with racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 02:21 PM

Mob rule is always wrong

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 02:42 PM

Change the government if you think it will do any good.

But it makes no more sense to vandalize the man's house than the burning of the big houses (and other places) did during the Irish Civil War.

IF there is no law, then law can be imposed by the people IF it is imposed impartially, justly, and mercifully. The vigilantes of the American West imposed other punishments besides hanging (banishment, flogging, fines, etc.).

But this is not at all necessary in England (or the US) today.

Why not simply hold a silent vigil across the street from his house with a sign indicating how many people (changed daily) lost their homes through his actions?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 04:19 PM

That these acts of vandalism are criminal is certainly obvious in law.

That sir freds thoughtless vandalism of peoples lives via selfish risk taking should be rewarded with such a vast amount of money, provided by trhe tax payer, is not criminal in law but in my mind is nonetheless criminal.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

And any intelligent saboteur should consider that he will not lose out, as he will get a payout from his insurers, which, if this is a strategy to get back at the bankers, will only result in further strain being put on financial institutions which will then ask for more public money.

Being a multi faceted multi dimensional person, It doesn't take much effort to understand the anger that people feel.

I am able to blank it out and keep crimes such as freds in the abstract.

I havent't lost my job/home/life - possibly family etc etc etc yet.

So while I disagree with that way of doing things and see it is ultimately damaging to the people who did it, something they may reflect on as they languish in jail, (while sir fred simply rings his accountant to chase up the insurance company from his permanent holiday wherever it is that he is laying low ... or indeed living it up ...), I cannot judge them but feel nothing but sympathy and understanding.

It reminds me of fathers for justice. There were some characters involved who it turned out were seperated from their kids for good reason, but there were others who were driven to act foolishly out of sheer desperate frustration.

Sometimes its just too much.

Lets hope it doesn't become more comonplace, as it will result either in the total disintegration of society, or (more likely) in a reality comparable to that in the film "Brazil" with a distinct seperation of class between the very wealthy and protected and the rest on the outside.

And the likes of us will be on the outside.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 05:35 PM

If the law permits Fred's theft, and then preserves the property that he stole against damage, what is the law but the tool of oppression?

If the law results from politicking what is politics but the tool of oppression?

How then do the dispossessed regain what was theirs but by renouncing politics and law in favour of what they can control? They will of course lose the pitched battle, for politics and law control the armies.

That leaves guerilla warfare.

Burn baby burn.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 05:37 PM

thats sick

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 05:43 PM

"Right comes from the muzzle of a rifle"? "God is on the side of the big battalions"? "When you've got 'em by the balls their hearts and minds will follow"?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 06:28 PM

The bankers are "small beer"........The real criminals are the people who want to enslave our children with billions of pounds/dollars debt which will take decades to pay off, in a last ditch effort to re-establish the status quo.

Richard Bridge is correct, as the system disintegates we shall be forced to fight for our freedom and our lives.

Capitalism will never willingly take its hands from our throats or it's heel from our necks.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 06:49 PM

So does that mean the system is disintegrating?

Are these events symptomatic of times to come?

Is Rome burning?

What's next?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:03 PM

"If the law permits Fred's theft, and then preserves the property that he stole against damage, what is the law but the tool of oppression?" - Richard Bridge.

Now if memory serves me correctly the person who stated that is a lawyer.

I would ask him the following:

What did Fred steal?? - The answer of course is nothing.

What property did Fred steal?? - The answer of course is none.

What criminal charges have been brought?? - Again the answer is none, and there are none in prospect of being brought.

Is there any evidence to support any such charge of theft?? - And again the answer is none.

So the man is guilty of what??

Funny thing Marxist socialist values and the law - as soon as it doesn't suit you the "champagne socialists" come out offering opinions and advice such as this:

"How then do the dispossessed regain what was theirs but by renouncing politics and law in favour of what they can control? They will of course lose the pitched battle, for politics and law control the armies.

That leaves guerilla warfare.

Burn baby burn."

Richard - you want to get yourself another job, you are clearly unsuited to the one you've got. Mind you I suppose you could join our other leftist "socialist" legal eagle and go smear some shit on hat pins to stick into perfect strangers - another totally unjustified recourse to violence, but no doubt they'd find some bloody idiotic excuse for their behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:11 PM

You see Terry, you don't understand how the system robs those who are not empowered to manipulate it, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:55 PM

"Property is theft" is a slogan (not a "Marxist" slogan, incidentally) that oversimplifies things - but there are situations where it is spot on. And Fred Goodwin represents one of those situations.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:57 PM

I see it as theft.

He sees it as a payout from his bank.

But in doing so he puts the blinkers on and ignores that the tax payer did not ask to bail out his bank, the tax payer was informed that they would be bailing out his bank.

What the tax payer certainly did not expect was that their money would be used to reward the guy who brought the bank to the brink in the first place.

It was a most elaborate con trick, so adept that he even fooled himself.

A man with no qualifications in finance becomes head of a bank - and nearly destroys it and then makes off with millions in rewards.

At least in the film "catch me if you can" starring leonardo di caprio in the true life story of americas youngest con artist, he was caught.

If Sir Fred had the remotest shred of decency he would thank the public on bended knee for a consierably smaller sum.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 08:33 PM

If you're gonna take the class attitude, associating money and property directly to criminality, I say you should STILL avoid petty vandalism and, so to speak, cut to the chase, as the old Left Bank bumper sticker would have us:






"EAT THE RICH!"

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Emma B
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 08:43 PM

A report of this attack is given in the 'not socialist' Times

It's interesting to note that both in this report and on the radio news the affluent neighbours in this exclusive area (hardly the front line of the 'class war') stated that they understood the 'anger' that provoked this attack upon the Mercede's window (one of Goodwins 7 cars including a couple of Ferraris) and three windows of the £3million house rather more than they understood the greed that made him refuse catagorically to give any of his £16.9 million pension package back.

It is also reported that Goodwin said he was 'shaken' by the damage - but unfortunately not 'stirred' (conscience wise)

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 08:58 PM

I have arms* and ammunition and the knowledge and will to use them -- as I see fit. This in no way means that I would support EITHER the plebes or the proles.



*Some of them are not "on the books", so to speak, and I can get more of those if needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 09:48 PM

But if you attacked my home, for which my wife and I have worked and saved for 35+ years, I would defend myself in whatever way I saw fit (e.g., consider being the target of a bucket of water at 25F or colder).

I think that those who attacked Mr. Goodwin's house (3.5 million is too much for a "home" in my opinion) are lucky that the laws in the UK are more "civilized" than they are in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:06 AM

Careful, Richard Bridge. 05:35 PM. With ethics like yours, you'll give lawyers a bad name.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 02:40 AM

"A man with no qualifications in finance becomes head of a bank - and nearly destroys it and then makes off with millions in rewards."


What this so-called unqualified buffoon did:

Sir Frederick Anderson Goodwin CA, DUniv (h.c), FCIBS,LLD (h.c) (born 17 August 1958) is a Scottish banker and former chief executive of the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS). He obtained his nickname "Fred the Shred" from City financiers in the 1990s, having gained a reputation for generating cost savings and efficiencies.

From 2000 until 2008 he presided over RBS's rapid rise to global prominence as the world's largest company (by assets - £1.9trn), and fifth-largest bank by stock market value and its even more rapid fall as RBS was forced into effective nationalisation in 2008.

Psssst Guest Lox - nobody was complaining about his performance up until Fanny and Freddie caused the collapse of confidence in credit to crash world's financial system were they?

The "Beef":

The February 2009 disclosure of his approximately £700,000 per year pension award from RBS he was the subject of widespread public, political and media criticism.

Pssst Guest Lox this package was negotiated by everybody in Government who had anything to do with Sir Fred's leaving who now profess shock and horror. Any idea why they didn't speak up at the time of those "negotiations"??

The "Track Record" no qualifications in finance:

- Studying law at Glasgow University.

- 1983, joined accountants Touche Ross, and qualified as a chartered accountant.

- 1985 and 1987 he led a management consultant team at Rosyth Dockyard.

- 1988 and became a partner in Touche Ross.

- Appointed a director of Short Brothers, and tasked with preparing the largest industrial employer in Northern Ireland for its 1989 privatisation.

- For Touche Ross he headed the worldwide liquidation of Bank of Credit and Commerce International after its collapse in July 1991. At 32, Goodwin was in charge of 1,000 people with teams from London to Abu Dhabi and the Cayman Islands that eventually returned over half the money from one of the most complicated, high-profile financial frauds ever.

- 1987 His move into banking came through his work at Touche Ross with the National Australia Bank, contributing due diligence to its 1987 takeover of Clydesdale Bank from the then Midland Bank and again with its 1995 takeover of Yorkshire Bank.

- During work on the latter he caught the eye of National Australia Bank executive Don Argus, and was invited to become deputy chief executive of Clydesdale in 1995, and as per his "five-second rule", accepted on the spot rising to chief executive of National Australia's British banking operations in 1996.

- Around this time he gained the nickname "Fred the Shred" from City financiers, reflecting a reputation for ruthlessly generating cost savings and efficiencies whilst at Clydesdale. He was later described as "a corporate Attila", having gained a reputation in the City for being a fearsome outsider - being Scottish, and not educated at a public school or at Oxbridge - who made raids in the south and abroad when it suited him.

- He joined Royal Bank of Scotland in 1998 as deputy CEO to then-Chairman Sir George Mathewson, who had ambitions to make RBS a major player rather than a regional bank.

- 2000 RBS £23.6bn takeover of NatWest, a bank three times its size.

From the time that Goodwin took over as chief executive until 2007, RBS's assets quadrupled, its cost-to-income ratio improved markedly, and its profits soared.

Guess nobody knows you when your down and out eh Guest Lox - Certainly for someone so unqualified nobody was compalining about him while he was making money for everybody hand over fist - and so far he has stolen from no-one, irrespective of how you see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 04:15 AM

"Careful, Richard Bridge. 05:35 PM. With ethics like yours, you'll give lawyers a bad name."

So you believe what Goodwin did to be ethical, do you? It may have been lawful but, as Dickens realised, sometimes "the law is a ass".

Let's see who is the criminal. A man who, from his abuse of power, ruined the lives of thousands and then arrogantly refused to refute the huge payout he had negotiated, or a few radical registering the digust of all right-minded people at the fact that he got away with it?

Looks like it's going to be a very hot summer - bring on the revolution!

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 04:20 AM

Has any of the ones advocating this sort of behaviour actually thought what it would have been like if there had been a child in the house. Of course they didnt because mob mentality doesnt give a damb about children. To a mob it doesnt matter who gets hurt or damaged along the way as long as they get what they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 04:43 AM

Hardly a mob, Megan. And I'm sure they were only too well aware that there was no-one in the house. Here we go, typical disortion of the facts to prove a point.

To a banker with no morals it doesn't matter who gets hurt as long as he gets what he wants. Touche.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 04:53 AM

How did they know did they go nock the front door? Have you ever been in a house with people outside baying and throwing things? Rule by fear is never right

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 04:55 AM

re Goodwin's qualifications - although 'he studied law at Glasgow University', I don't see a degree amongst the list, other than two doctorates which are 'honorary' ones, presumably for his services to banking. I assume the 'CA' means Chartered Accountant?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 05:17 AM

"How did they know did they go nock the front door? Have you ever been in a house with people outside baying and throwing things? Rule by fear is never right "

Rubbish! This was not mindless vandalism, this was a well-planned and executed geurilla operation. It was common knowledge that the Goodwins were sunning themselves abroad while we all have to stay at home and take the consequences of his disgusting, immoral behaviour.You're completely missing the point - this was an attack on PROPERTY not PEOPLE. Rule by fear? What a load of bollocks.

Terry, I think CA means Complete Arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 05:25 AM

Ah! Of course, I should have realised - Chartered accountants are usually ACAs or FCAs.

(Now someone will spoil it by telling me that's not the case in Scotland.)

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 06:58 AM

The suggestion that there may have been a child in the empty house at the time is disingenuous; neighbours said he had not been seen for weeks after taking his children out of a local private school and it is believed he is overseas

The picture of a baying mob throwing things owes more to the imagination of Gary Larson than the reality of a small group described by experts as well-educated individuals conducting an organized assault

"Professor Capitanchik, of the Robert Gordon University in Aberdeen, grouped the gang together with environmental terrorists and guerrilla animal protection activists.

"These groups, while not using violence against people, are not too concerned about causing damage," he said. "All of this, in their view, is to bring home the message, whatever it happens to be."

He said they were likely to be young, highly motivated, well-educated individuals and suggested they could be bank workers or investors."

From the same report in the Times

"There have previously been protests outside the property since it emerged that Sir Fred had negotiated a £16.9 million pension package and had no intention of giving it back.
Banners posted outside decried him as a "scumbag millionaire".

On Monday, Sir Max Hastings, a military historian and former newspaper editor*, called on the public to throw stones through the windows of failed bankers"

* of that well known Marxist newspaper The Daily Telegraph

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: number 6
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 07:27 AM

damned scarry ... from which ever way you look at this.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 07:33 AM

Thanks, Emma, very enlightening. Sorry to be Mr Angry on this one but it's the actions of Goodwin and his cronies that have chucked me on the scrap heap at the age of 60 after working hard for 42 years. I have been obliged to take the already meagre pension I'd managed to scrape together over the years at a time when its value has gone down by about 25%. So, while Goodwin wallows in his £700k a year, I have to try to pay the mortgage and feed my family on £7K a year.

Angry? You bet I am! Pass me a brick.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 07:33 AM

"Seize their Porsches and throw them in jail! Shameless bankers are worse than Train Robbers"

What Sir Max Hastings wrote in that well known pillar of the radical left the Daily Mail

"A distinguished financial commentator wrote this week that investment banks have been run not for the benefit of society, customers, or even shareholders, but exclusively for the advantage of the bankers themselves.

This is what is so iniquitous. This is what those responsible still refuse to acknowledge.

This is why we must stand outside their homes throwing rocks through the windows"

"The best reason for using extravagant language to abuse these people is that politeness will get us nowhere with them. They have stashed away enough of our money to be secure from any threat to their lifestyles. "

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 07:41 AM

Terry, the "achievements" you list look a lot like more of the same. I've worked with high level people from Touche Ross, and it is not a recommendation. Have you?

It was the gearing of grabby Fred's reckless expansion at RBS (the "financial engineering" that the accountants and MBAs of the time were promoting) that was its undoing. The fox was in charge of the chicken coop.

Once upon a time a lot of lawyers made it thier concern to see that they worked in a "justice" system. Now we have headed back to a system merely of law. It was a system merely of law that deported men who stole to feed their families in previous times of economic failure and/or permitted a death sentence on conviction for theft of property worth more than a shilling.

Go back and read the history of the corn laws.

Some of us still believe in justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 08:31 AM

I don't for one second agree with or support the vandalism against Freddies property.

I object on ethical grounds and I also see it as a pointless ineffective punishment if that is how it was intended as Freddie will not suffer a jot.

As for whether there were kids there or whether he was known to be away or not, I think we will find that the guys who did this stuff are not that discriminating or they would have thought their plan through a bit better as far as it pertained to their presumed goal of punishing him.

I read that CV as evidence of over ambition and reckless risk taking.

I never cared before because he wasn't being paid with our money, money which we thought was going to be used to save the bank not the banker.

And I agree that those who agreed his pay off should take responsibility and not try to pass the buck his way exclusively.

But none of that detracts from the fact that he is a shitbag of the highest order.

We in the public domain have an image of banks as prudent conservative sensible institutions that we can trust with our money.

We assume that those running the banks put our interests first and would never do anything to compromise our security and livelihoods.

Freddie failed to honour that trust.

A point to remember - if RBS had gone under, he would have received no pension as there would have been no company to pay it.

So he needs to thank us for having a pension at all.

The fact that he has agreed to take so much is criminal.

It is like being saved a slice by us when all indications were that he might get nothing and then showing appreciation by taking the whole cake from us.


Down at this end of the economy, I have a pretty low opinion of those who take advantage of the taxpayer. Benefit fraud, scrounging and dependancy by those who are fit and able pisses me off.

Fred didn't need £16,000,000.

How many able bodied dole scroungers would it take, at £60 a week for a lifetime (say 50 years) to cost the tax payer £16,000,000.

I work out that it rounds down to 102.

It isn't illegal, but we don't like it.

Freddie the freeloader was already minted.

He is morally corrupt.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 09:41 AM

"I also see it as a pointless ineffective punishment if that is how it was intended"

I doubt the petty, but well publized, vandalism was intended as 'punishment' Lox but rather 'propagande par le fait' the anarchist concept of propaganda by the deed by which acts of symbolic violence against structural targets are intended to evoke a broader meaning.

Not being an anarchist, I agree that attempts to undertake individualised reprisals against the nearest available fat cat, rather than patiently building a political response are ultimately counterproductive however, a comment I read stated
"But if people don't feel strongly enough to throw bricks through windows, then attempts to direct that feeling into better channels will peter out."

"... direct action comes from frustration that there seems to be no way of achieving justice through peaceful channels.
And this is probably the only way to wake the Government up to the fact that we really will have to control these fat-cats or there really will be a boom in the glaziery business"

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 09:58 AM

I think in this case its just angry people getting back at the guys they see as having ruined their lives.

People who feel powerless and disenfranchised trying to empower themselves.

It will be sad and horrible when they are humiliated into a spell in the nick, made to pay a fine and maybe even sued by Freddie Freeloader himself in the small claims court.

Ultimately though their situation will not change, except for the worse.

There will of course be much public symppathy and support, but if GB is powerless in the face of Freddies contract then so are we.

Besides, he can - and probably already has done - move all his money overseas with a phone call and live haoily ever after in the sun while we trash the place around ourselves and wake up to find we live in hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 10:00 AM

Rationally, his few million makes no difference in the scheme of things, but the fierce, bitter anger that normally decent people can not help but feel at the sheer injustice and greed is a dangerous thing.

There are hundreds of thousands who have lost their homes, jobs and savings. Who knows what they will be capable of.
Dangerous times I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 10:05 AM

Well I just hope people that seem to condone vandalism or voilence, get their come uppence.

As has been said, he basically hasn't broken the law, but the vandals have.

That doesn't mean I condone what he has done. Its disgraceful.

However if we allow people to take their anger out on property or people, then we are not upholding the law.

I for one do not support anybody who chooses to vandalise or is voilent to anybody, no matter what the reason.

Self defence is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 10:07 AM

The government (then) was perfectly capable of pursuing the NUM's cash abroad.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 10:21 AM

So bullying is wrong in school, and it is rightly frowned upon, with measures being taken to stamp it out.
However bullying, particularly left wing bullying in pursuit of 'The Cause' (WTF is the cause BTW?), is OK?
What a load of bollocks

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 10:43 AM

Well I'd hardly call Max Hastings a 'left wing' bully but - just to show there is nothing new under the sun in what people perceive as a fight for 'justice' I include the following newspaper report

(BTW I'm not sure what 'The Cause' is referred to above but
other 'causes' have been publicized by window breaking)

London November 26, 1910, Saturday New York Times

"Twenty suffragettes who were arrested during the night for smashing windows in the Government offices were sentanced in the Bow Street police court today each to two months imprisonment"

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 11:05 AM

It's those who vandalised the house that are bullies, and terrorists. Intimidation is a nasty pastime, and it's a common weapon of certain self righteous organisations.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 11:15 AM

He'll probably screw another small fortune out of his insurance policy, pushing up everyones home insurance bills next year, and probably the policy will give him more attention than he deserves (he should get no more than someone on low income living in a high rise estate) leeching more public money.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 11:15 AM

It's not much of a step from stones to Molotov cocktails and grenades. I know, I saw it in the '60s.

And what are the police doing about this destruction of property, vandalism, and (likely) incitement to riot?

Are the attackers ready to take the next step?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 11:30 AM

Well the evening standard are of the opinion that the G20 summit in London will be remembered for its violence.

They are encouraging bankers to dress down to go to work.

Typical evening standard guff I presume ... I certainly hope so ...

I don't wish to live in a bomb site.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 11:47 AM

"Intimidation is a nasty pastime, and it's a common weapon of certain self righteous organisations. "

Yes, mostly governments, those with power, the ruling classes and, of course, never despised by the fascists in the BNP, etc.

That you see an attack on the property of a nasty, selfish individual like Goodwin by a few people as bullying shows what a perverted perception you have on life, John.

"I know, I saw it in the '60s."

Rapaire, on 17th March 1968 I was protesting peacefully in Grosvenor Square, unaware that I was breaking any law, when I was charged by a phalanx of police horses and narrowly escaped serious injury.

Strange how those on the right wing seem to find violence acceptable when it's being perpetrated by them (as it so often is) but so unacceptable when it's against them.

Personally, I do not condone violence but see the property of social abusers like Goodwin as a legitimate target.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 11:52 AM

To address various points made by Dick Bridge:

1.        No theft has been perpetrated by Sir Fred Goodwin in any way, shape or form, to continue to state that he is a thief in print is libel you as a lawyer should know that.

2.        Can you tell me who "the system" has robbed Dickey and what particular "system" you are referring to. I do not manipulate any system and to date I have not lost a thing.


3.        Now this one I liked – "Once upon a time a lot of lawyers made it their concern to see that they worked in a "justice" system." – A "lot of lawyers" Dickey?? Like hell, damn few and far between. All you ever get from Courts of Law is LAW. If it is justice then that has to be fought for in Parliament where laws are changed. You then rounded that off with – "Some of us still believe in justice" – Again Dickey, hell as like you believe in mob rule, as did most during the French Revolution – They weren't so keen on it when it eventually turned on them.

Now it is thelevellers turn:

1.        No I do not believe or put forward the opinion that Goodwin is ethical, but I strongly refute the accusation that he is a thief and a criminal.

2.        On the subject of criminality you quote two cases and ask which is criminal? On the one hand you describe Goodwin as – "A man who, from his abuse of power, ruined the lives of thousands and then arrogantly refused to refute the huge payout he had negotiated," On the other hand your alternative candidates you rather euphemistically describe as – "a few radicals registering the disgust of all right-minded people at the fact that he (Goodwin) got away with it?". The honest answer to your question is of course that while Sir Fred Goodwin is guilty of nothing more than being a particularly good negotiator (possibly not it must be awfully easy to run circles round "Clown" Brown and his minions) the others are guilty of criminal damage.

3.        You bay and call for "the revolution" and boast that the attack on Sir Fred Goodwin's property was "not mindless vandalism, this was a well-planned and executed guerrilla operation" Be careful what you wish for leveler it might just come to pass, and if that is your yardstick of a well-planned and executed operation that revolution of yours is going bite you rather badly.

To Emma B:

1.        "….the reality a small group described by experts as well-educated individuals conducting an organized assault

"Professor Capitanchik, of the Robert Gordon University in Aberdeen, grouped the gang together with environmental terrorists and guerrilla animal protection activists.

"These groups, while not using violence against people, are not too concerned about causing damage," he said. "All of this, in their view, is to bring home the message, whatever it happens to be."

He said they were likely to be young, highly motivated, well-educated individuals and suggested they could be bank workers or investors." –   So Professor C has never heard of "those" groups using intimidation; issuing death threats; hammering nails into trees; sending incendiaries through the post; sending letter bombs. Odd that I didn't realize the ivory towers of Robert Gordon's were as well insulated from normal life as that.

2.        On Monday, Sir Max Hastings, a military historian and former newspaper editor, called on the public to throw stones through the windows of failed bankers" – Then someone wants to inform Sir Max that incitement to commit a criminal act is an offence. Alternatively "failed bankers" could toddle round to Sir Max's place and heave a few bricks through his windows to see how much he appreciates it.

3.        "They have stashed away enough of our money to be secure from any threat to their lifestyles." – More crap from Sir Max, who Emma B seems to have fastened upon as the font of all knowledge. Well I have news for both Sir Max and for Emma B, those "failed bankers" have not taken a single penny of either yours or his.

Finally Guest Lox:

1.        "We in the public domain have an image of banks as prudent conservative sensible institutions that we can trust with our money." – And generally by and large they are. I along with hundreds of millions of others still use and trust banks. Not one of them has ever robbed me, got me hopping mad at times, and I would not cross the street to spit on any employee of the Nat West even if they were on fire, but that is personal.

2.        "We assume that those running the banks put our interests first and would never do anything to compromise our security and livelihoods." – Well no, not really, that is not the way things work, irrespective of what you might think. The bank is a business that is there to service a need and it exists to make money primarily for its shareholders. As its business is making money, it relies on its demonstrable and proven ability to do that to attract customers, who, if they save with the bank, quite rightly expect the bank to make them money in terms of interest paid on savings accounts. So Guest Lox Banks are not there to provide anyone with a safety net or any other form of social service – it is basically up to you to look after your own security and to look after your own livelihood.

3.        "A point to remember - if RBS had gone under, he would have received no pension as there would have been no company to pay it.

So he needs to thank us for having a pension at all.

The fact that he has agreed to take so much is criminal." - Now let's see if, and it's a very big if, RBS had gone under what would have happened? All the banks assets would have been realized, all outstanding debts to the bank would have been called in causing a large number of very healthy companies and employers to go to the wall themselves who otherwise would have continued to trade and employ people. Get the drift, the ripples from a pebble. Now who are the first to be protected when a company goes under – in order – the employees pay and pensions; the creditors; the shareholders. Sir Fred Goodwin negotiated his "retirement" package with those who were throwing RBS a lifeline, i.e. the British Government, The Treasury in fact. Maybe they should learn to negotiate better; Sir Fred didn't just name his own price somebody in either the Government or the Civil Service had to have agreed to it so please stop talking about this man doing anything criminal, he hasn't. Morally objectionable maybe but nothing illegal - I'd pour my scorn on the clots who let him get away with it - Clown Brown and Co.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:04 PM

The Banks own rules decided that he should get the pension he did.. not his fault!!! He is entitled to it even though the media have glorified it out of proportion. Just because we are in an economic decline... OK as a result of the Banks negotiations... it comes to everyones notice. Had we not been in decline then he would have retired eventually, drawn the pension and nothing would have been said.
As for the damage to his car etc.... I am sure he is insured... therefore the Insurance company/ies will pay out and he will have his items restored... but who pays for the insurance money... all those who pay into the insurance companies!! So I never see a point in any kind of criminal damage, whatever the reasoning behind it... someone(s) will always have to pay for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:07 PM

Congratulations.

In March, 1968 I was "up" and hanging around the Armory, waiting deployment to fight floods on the Mississippi. A month later I was "up" as backup for the riots following the murder of MLK. A month after that I was sworn into "up to two years Federal Active Duty" and the unit of the National Guard to which I belonged was shipped to Chu Lai, South Vietnam. After returning I was again "up" following the stupid, unconscionable, shootings at Kent State. As soon as possible thereafter I quit, transferred to the Individual Ready Reserve, and a year later was discharged.

A peaceful demonstration can turn violent by the actions of a very few on either side. If you're not ready to pull the trigger, don't take up the gun.

As they say, "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:14 PM

"If you're not ready to pull the trigger, don't take up the gun."

My views on guns for any reason are well-known.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM

"Power comes from the barrel of a gun." -- Mao

YOUR views on guns and violence might be well known, but you can't control others.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:43 PM

Teribus,

As I scrolled down I thought (with a smile) "it'll be me next - he can't resist" - so it appears that I have reached a point where I enjoy your responses.

So, like a moth to a flame, like a planet to a black hole, like a spider to a plug, I find myself engaging with the self appointed Bruce Lee of verbal combat.

"The bank is a business that is there to service a need and it exists to make money primarily for its shareholders. As its business is making money, it relies on its demonstrable and proven ability to do that to attract customers, who, if they save with the bank, quite rightly expect the bank to make them money in terms of interest paid on savings accounts. So Guest Lox Banks are not there to provide anyone with a safety net or any other form of social service – it is basically up to you to look after your own security and to look after your own livelihood."

Banks offer more than just saving accounts.

They, like other businesses, provide services/products for paying customers.

Different customers require different services.

I use banks as a way of keeping my finances more secure.

I don't have to carry cash around all the time, store it under my mattress or fill bags with it every time I want to buy something expensive.

I have the option of using cheque, debit card or transfer.

In return, the bank may use my money as capital with which to run a lending business to their other customers (the ones from whom they make their real profits).

In practice, I lend to the bank in return for that security and they give me that security in return for their right to give credit to those who need it.

It is my banks responsibility to me to invest sensibly.

"Now let's see if, and it's a very big if, RBS had gone under what would have happened? All the banks assets would have been realized, all outstanding debts to the bank would have been called in causing a large number of very healthy companies and employers to go to the wall themselves who otherwise would have continued to trade and employ people. Get the drift, the ripples from a pebble. Now who are the first to be protected when a company goes under – in order – the employees pay and pensions; the creditors; the shareholders. Sir Fred Goodwin negotiated his "retirement" package with those who were throwing RBS a lifeline, i.e. the British Government, The Treasury in fact. Maybe they should learn to negotiate better; Sir Fred didn't just name his own price somebody in either the Government or the Civil Service had to have agreed to it so please stop talking about this man doing anything criminal, he hasn't. Morally objectionable maybe but nothing illegal - I'd pour my scorn on the clots who let him get away with it - Clown Brown and Co."

On the subject of Gordon, You'll note that I have already agreed that point.

On the subject of "moral", "Illegal" and "Criminal", you'll see that the only difference between your view and mine concerns use of the word "criminal". He hasn't broken the law, but in my opinion his actions are criminal.

Aside from legal definitions, criminal can also mean:

"senseless; foolish"

"Shameful; disgraceful"

"Guilty of crime or sin."

"bringing or deserving severe rebuke or censure"

synonymous with "condemnable"


As for your other point concerning the pebble and the ripples, it would seem that you are agreeing that we should all, like fred, be grateful for the decision to save RBS.

My point, that the purpose of that money was to save the bank and not Freddie Freeloader, still stands.

And my opinion, that his actions were criminal, still stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: goatfell
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:59 PM

he 'stole' money for the RBS custmers

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:00 PM

It's not the aims, but the means that is wrong. I feel the same about many things on this. Violence and intimidation is the act of the bully, down through history.
There is no difference between this group of wrong headed people who made the futile gesture of vandalising Goodwin's house, and the Angry Brigade. They both hide their criminal acts under a the disguise of anonymity.
They can dignify their actions by calling themselves something crusading, but it still remains a fact, that they broke the law, and Fred Goodwin didn't.
I'm not saying I agree with his actions, or that of his ex employers, but neither to I agree with cowards who hide in the night, and commit crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:05 PM

"Personally, I do not condone violence but see the property of social abusers like Goodwin as a legitimate target." the leveller

I see violence against property as violence.

I would also add that when one sets something in motion one is not in control of others' response to it. (I yell at you, you punch me. I punch you, you set fire to my house.) I suspect that only rarely is the reaction of smaller moment than the initial provocation.

When one participates in or condones breaking a target's windows, does anyone have any idea of what the response will entail?

An analogy: They say that a smart lawyer in court never asks a question to which he or she doesn't know the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:09 PM

A lot of people keep pointing out that Goodwin broke no law, so he's noit a bad bloke. Firstly, he is a bad bloke, lawbreaker or not. Secondly, he may well have broken the law, it is being investigated. And it will be exceedingly funny if they can pin something on him.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:10 PM

Exactly, Ebbie.

If you throw a stone at someone or something you commit a violent act. Your opinions make no difference; the violence has begun.

IF attacked I will answer violence with proportional violence.

But the bigger question is: Who made the mob judge, jury, and executioner?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:17 PM

"And what are the police doing about this destruction of property, vandalism, and (likely) incitement to riot?"

Possible answer in today's "Daily Mirror":-

"How can the police possibly interview 60 million suspects?"

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:19 PM

At the very least, I would suggest that this toad Goodwin is guilty of conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:26 PM

"I see violence against property as violence"

You may, I don't. These people were, in my opinion, making a legitimate protest. Not legal, perhaps, but certainly legitimate - as in the protests against the poll tax, the miners' strike etc, etc.Sometimes direct action needs to be taken. This is one such instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:29 PM

Dearie me Terry, you'd better check your libel law. And if you don't believe that lawyers used to seek justice, you'd better look up old Tom Denning, too. I didn't always agree with him, but he did try to do justice. And that too caps your simplistic belief that all reform towards justice comes through parliament. You've lost nothing, so you think it's all all right? What a smug little right-winger.

The rich can only go so far in overpowering the poor before the tables are turned.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:47 PM

Excuse me folks... but when you talk about 'Legitimate targets'... am I missing something here... are we condoning terrorism in any form or is it only for special situations????
I really don't believe what I am reading on here. I don't believe anyone has the right to attack any person or their property... isn't it against the law???

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:51 PM

Some people think it's OK to disobey laws they don't like.
Why don't we all do it?
I mean, it wouldn't cause any problems would it?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:58 PM

"More crap from Sir Max, who Emma B seems to have fastened upon as the font of all knowledge. Well I have news for both Sir Max and for Emma B, those "failed bankers" have not taken a single penny of either yours or his."

I do not quote Max Hastings as any 'font of knowledge' I merely quote his exhortation to "stand outside their homes throwing rocks through the windows" the only person I have seen to have actively and publicly encouraged such actions by others whatever their motivation.

As for your statement Terribus that "failed bankers" have not taken a single penny of either yours or his, as a taxpayer funding this obscene handout that is quite obviously inaccurate.

Furthermore, as someone whose pension fund was tied into the bank he ran, his risk taking with other peoples money has left a rather large hole in my future security unless the attempt at a class action in the UK against him is likely to be successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 02:02 PM

talking about throwing stones....

I seem to remember a previous argument here for 'ignoring' the laws about exceeding the legal speed limit but then some people think it's OK to disobey laws they don't like

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 02:14 PM

Only madmen like violence, but were are likely to be forced into the use of violence by the state. As this depression moves to slump, as it certainly will, the powers at the disposal of Brown's capitalist government will be used to keep "public order", which of course is code for suppression of protest.

Many months ago, I suggested that this "little financial hiccup" could lead to the biggest social upheaval in our lifetime....I was of course laughed off the boards.
Now we see the start of what is likely to happen as the middle class lose their priviliged position....pension rights ...property values....comfortable salaries, and start to taste what the underclass has been dining on for the last few decades. All the ingrediants are there for an unwinnable war against a powerful and very ruthless system.



We could sit back and allow the formation of a police state, and on to Facism, as they did in Germany, or we could fight and die.
I just wonder how many of the freedom loving liberals would elect to fight....very few I think, pragmatists to a man!

Whatever happens,our real liberty is sure to be severely curtailed in the supreme effort to get Capitalism back on the rails.

Forget the crooks with their few measely millions and keep your eyes on the politicians......They can do much more damage to your health....

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 02:19 PM

I'm with Georgiansilver here. It is hard to believe that people here are approving and advocating this kind of activity.

theleveller, you don't see targeting property as violence? Would you approve of setting a house on fire? Where do you draw the line?

Far more affective, in my view, is what was suggested above: Picket his place. Publicise his misdoings and your outrage. Keep the issue alive and make it most unpleasant for him to consider coming home.

But what is the use - not to mention, repercussions - of causing damage to property? Especially the property of a rich man who will be little or nothing out of pocket.

Breaking windows to express displeasure would bring me no satisfaction at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 02:23 PM

"I just wonder how many of the freedom loving liberals would elect to fight....very few I think, pragmatists to a man!" ake

"freedom-loving liberals" - if you were an American, Ake, no doubt your next epithet would be "Un-American".

Pragmatism is not a four-letter word. Pragmatism requires thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 02:36 PM

I know what a pragmatist is Ebbie....we all have to practice it from time to time, It's just that most of the "liberals" of my aquaintance love to talk about liberty, but seem most unwilling to actually "throw their bodies into the wheels and the gears"

I think that this time, we have to finally make up our minds what side we are on.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 03:09 PM

The old radical-anarchist rant survival is interesting, but if these idiots "throw their bodies" into vandalism and attacks, long incarceration is called for.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 03:14 PM

Rioters notoriously wreck their own neighborhoods. When vandals force insurance companies to pay out more to cover the damage that vandals have committed - even in the name of freedom!- vandals are wrecking their own neigbhorhoods.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 04:06 PM

Yeah, out here in Idaho we call it "pissing in your soup."

Fight? Yes, Ake, I'd fight. Who I would fight would depend upon who was attacking me and/or mine. Like Shiva, I'm impartial in my destruction.

Ammunition is scarce in the stores out here right now, especially the popular calibers. I'm glad I managed to get a couple more boxes of .30-30 a few months back and I think I'll see about getting some more .30-06 and definitely some more 12 and 20 gauge.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 04:07 PM

Vandalism?....incarceration?....are you mad?
We will be fighting for our liberty and our lives!

The people who fought the rise of Facism in Germany were not the liberals (they aligned themselves with Hitlers thugs), but the Communists and Anarchists

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 04:41 PM

Yeah, and the Communists turned out as bad as the Fascists -- see Stalin, Lenin, et al.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 04:49 PM

And Ake -- if you're not willing to go to jail for your beliefs, or even die for them, you're a piss-poor revolutionary.

See, for instance, folks like James Connolly, Padric Pearse, John Adams, Tom Jefferson, Leon Trotsky, Fidel Castro....

Or is this a case of
        
Love Me, I'm a Liberal Lyrics
Phil Ochs

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New Republic and Nation
I've take every conceivable view
I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 05:49 PM

I don't see a lot of difference between what happened with Germany and what could happen here in the UK.

It only needs a group of people to incite others and suddenly, violence and intimidation and bullying ensues.

Stop condoning people who want to take the law into their own hands, otherwise you and us will rue the day.

Blimey it almost smacks of the Taliban.

Why the f*** does everybody want to be voilent.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 06:06 PM

Great song Rap.....I'm comin' over to join you behind the barricades.

You'll know me, ah'll be wavin' a red n'black flag!!

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 06:13 PM

Which football team is that then that plays in red and black?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 06:20 PM

The Champions!!......:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 06:39 PM

Real Madrid?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 06:57 PM

Provisional Madrid?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 07:01 PM

Purposeless violence we can see daily by following association football.

Capital already has its shock troops - the law system, where the government is already trying to starve out the lawyers who will defend against the state, and the police, and then the army navy and airforce if those do not suffice.

Fred fought daily to take from the poor to give to the rich (or rather to keep for himself). What weapons do the poor have with which to fight back?

Long hot summer starts with the G8 summit. That maybe the start of the revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 07:12 PM

Why don't they use their votes?
The turnout at elections in the UK is abysmally low.
The present government was elected by a minority of the electorate.
More to the point if civic duties were taught in school, voting should be compulsory.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 10:50 PM

>What weapons do the poor have with which to fight back?<

A sad state of affairs if they, citizens of a former Empire, see themselves without recourse to anything less pathetic than sticks and stones, or molotovs and grenades. They will have given up the better part of their humanity if they feel so impoverished. Each of them has a natural, if not God-given right to resistance and revolution against an unjust government. Successful resistance wouldn't require mass violence - it needs only the inspired actions of persuasive people. Wasn't that the Great Message the world learned in the waxing and waning of the British Empire?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 02:12 AM

"he 'stole' money for the RBS custmers" - Goatfell

How did he do that Tom?

Are or were you an RBS customer? How much did he "steal" from you?

I would imagine that it would be nothing, do you know why? I'll tell you. If you were an RBS customer who had £1000 sitting in any Branch of the Royal Bank of Scotland and you had had that money sitting there for the last 12 months and never touched it, guess what you'd be told if you went into that Branch today and asked them how much was in your account? If it was a current account it would be £1000, if it was a savings account it would be £1000 + interest.

Tell me Goatfell how much has Sir Fred Goodwin stolen from you??

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 02:24 AM

The reason people like Fred do what they do when obviously they know it is ehthically fucked up (as opposed to illegal - which simply means that they can get away with it) rather than the 'right' thing is because they believe that they are utterly immune and protected from any consequences for their choices... Maybe if more people like him were to be even just a little concerned for the consequences that their actions caused, then less ordinary people would have got fucked over in the first place.

When people start beleiving that one should or shouldn't do something simply becasue it's either 'legal' or 'illegal' then they are abdicating their personal ethical responsibility. Just because there are no legal consequences for a wrongful action doesn't mean that there aught to be no consequences. This is a most appropriate and deserved consequence of his own knowingly wrongful action.

Recently learning 'The Diggers Song' (care of VTam), reminds me of some of the verses there: ''gainst Lawyers and 'gaint Priests, stand up now, for tyrants they are both even flat against their oath' ... 'the club is all their law, to keep poor men in awe', and so-on..

When has the law ever been anything other than a form of sanction and legitimisation for the wrongful acts of the rich and powerful, despite the best intentions of those lawyers who do attempt to use it for socially right ends?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 02:38 AM

"Furthermore, as someone whose pension fund was tied into the bank he ran, his risk taking with other peoples money has left a rather large hole in my future security unless the attempt at a class action in the UK against him is likely to be successful." - Emma B

The fact that your pension fund (I presume managed by others) had invested in the RBS would have nothing to do with the value of RBS shares having increased in value during the first six years of Goodwin's tenure would it?? The profits your pension scheme were able to post were down solely to "his risk taking" too so in your class action do they get deducted. Investing is exactly the same as horse racing its gambling.

What mechanism prevented those who manage your pension fund from selling their stake in RBS?? I can imagine very sound reasons why they did not sell and in the long term that decision will stand them in good stead.

Tell me are you going to need your pension soon? If not then don't worry, if you have money to invest buy bank shares and shares in insurance companies now you will make a fortune on them. Your pension fund managers know that.

Banks, insurance companies and mortgage providers had to be helped, because if they had gone to the wall as many here advocate that they should then everything would have stopped with catastrophic consequences.

The exercise I would like to see carried out is the comparison of what has happened to what would have been the case if the US Federal Reserve Bank had stepped in right at the beginning and guaranteed those loans as Fannie and Freddie implied that they would. My guess is that it would have amounted to a damn sight less than has been spent now.

And Emma B had that been done, nothing would have happened to the Royal Bank of Scotland and Sir Fred Goodwin would still have been in place making it money.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 04:14 AM

Ah, but why didn't it, Terry? Because in the name of doctrinaire capitalism they had been constructed as "off-book" devices and because, in the name of doctrinaire capitalism, nationalising them would have been "socialist". The caitalist system required that outcome.

Capitalism is the conspiracy of power against the powerless, and the legal system is its tool (yet still its thrall, since the only thing the big law corporations ask of their lawyers is that they maximise profit, and even judges are graded on (amongst other things) how fast they get through their workload against the number of successful appeals against their decisions).

Capitalism has failed, continues to fail, and in time will come to be seen as it was, a vehicle of oppression as much as the feudal system.

Fred was just one of the more obvious oppressors. What he set out to do was wrong, and what he achieved was worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 04:41 AM

Poor Tom and other RBS account holders DID lose almost all their money.
It was just replaced with a gift of public money.

There was no money left for Fred's enormous pension.
Public money had to be used to allow him to retire at 50 with an annual income of 30 working teachers plus a £3 million lump sum.

These abuses make decent people so angry that they do crazy things.
They might plea provocation, or mitigating circumstances, or diminished responsibility due to consuming rage.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 04:54 AM

"Stop condoning people who want to take the law into their own hands, otherwise you and us will rue the day."

When the law fails to protect the majority of the people against a small minority, it's time for the law to change. To facilitate that the problem needs to be brought to the attention of the government and the displeasure of the people demonstrated.The poll tax demonstrations were a case in point. That these people have done this without causing injury to anyone or inconvenience to anyone other than the culprit is to their credit.

It's unfortunate that those whose lives have not been affected by this neo-criminal feel uncomfortable but that's how change is brought about. It's even more unfortunate that the gun-crazy loonies in the States are starting to man the barricades, but I supopose that's just part of their perverted mentality.

These people have my full support as a law-abiding citizen.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 04:56 AM

The mob came for the rich bankers.
I was neither rich, nor a banker, so I held my tongue.

to misquote Fr Martin Niemöller

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 04:56 AM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 07:23 AM

At the end of the day, as yet, Goodwin has committed no criiminal act. Whether what he did was right or wrong moraly depends on your political standpoint but no-one in this country should be punished for their political views. The people who did the damage however have commited an act of criminal damage. Again, whther they acted moraly or not is irrelevant. They have commited a criminal act. Whether the courts will be lenient, if it comes to that, because what they did was moraly justified is yet to be seen.

That the government acted irresponsibly is also in question.. They allowed the situation to occur. They also did the right thing for the 'ordinary' people by bailing the bank out. I say this as an RBS customer! Too many variables. Too many viewpoints. No-one will ever be able to reconcile them all. Waste of time and effort I'm afraid.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 08:22 AM

It's even more unfortunate that the gun-crazy loonies in the States are starting to man the barricades, but I supopose that's just part of their perverted mentality.

Where in the world have you gotten THAT idea?

Yes, I bought some ammo earlier, as I said. My primary reason was for hunting, should that become needful. Yes, I would would certainly use my firearms to defend my home but I don't see any need to do so at this time OR in the immediate future. In fact, the US media has commented on the fact that people in the US are not taking to the streets in protest (and thereby depriving them of a good story, I guess).

I very much object to this statement, which was obviously made by someone who had absolutely NO idea of what s/he was talking about. Were this earlier times I would (quite seriously) demand either an apology or "satisfaction."

I don't think I'll post on this thread again.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 08:55 AM

This song never gets old.


Great song

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 10:16 AM

Come off it, Rapaire, your feigned indignation doesn't cut the mustard.

Why all the macho sabre-rattling? Why the constant allusion to guns, except to elicit a reation, which you have got? If you have a problem getting ammo, who has bought it all? And why? And what's the relevance here?


As you said yourself: "If you're not ready to pull the trigger, don't take up the gun."


"Were this earlier times I would (quite seriously) demand either an apology or "satisfaction.""

How delightfully quaint but, as I don't do weapons, it would have to be either Marquis of Queensbury of streetfighting rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 10:18 AM

Its great tae sit in yer armchair and say how wonderful vandals are and how right they are. Awa and drink yer cocoa auld man

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 11:11 AM

Brilliant from Dick we get:

1.        Capitalism is the conspiracy of power against the powerless, and the legal system is its tool

2.        Capitalism has failed, continues to fail, and in time will come to be seen as it was, a vehicle of oppression as much as the feudal system.


Now to the accompaniment of massed violins we hear away in the distance..........

"The working class can kiss my arse
I've got the foreman's job at last…"


"The conspiracy of power against the powerless" - what an absolute load of bollocks, capitalism is a system that empowers those who seek to prosper. It rewards effort, innovation and aids the advancement of mankind. It opens doors to all willing to apply themselves and has broken down barriers that many thought insurmountable.

So "capitalism has failed" has it?? I see no sign of it having failed. It is still the system that offers most. If it has failed Richard, what has replaced it? And no Keith A of Hertford no RBS customer "lost" their money, if you know of any please provide a source to substantiate your claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 12:40 PM

Violence (or perceived violence) is answered with violence and always has been.

Lev, I don't fight (if I am forced, really forced, to do so) by artificial rules. I taught it; if I am backed into a situation from which I must fight either I or the other will be very badly injured or dead -- I would prefer it to be the other guy.

I suggest to you take some responsibility for what you say or someday someone is going to take great umbrage and bloody your nose -- or worse.

You stick around in a devolving country, where vandalism is applauded and violence is on the increase. I'll continue to live here is (generally) peace and quiet.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 07:30 AM

I've got sympathy for the leech. Whatever the cost of the damage, it is pocket money for him.

What is more relevant are victims on low income who may lose everything, and will never be able to replace their losses, that end up living in fear behind locked doors. This is what should be on the front pages of the newspapers.

Goodwin is nothing. At best he should have got a 1cm mention in his local paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 08:17 AM

should read no sympathy

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 10:17 AM

I DON'T BANK WITH THE RSB AND IDON'T HAVE £1,000 EITHER AND IF I WAS A RSB CUSTMER THEN I WOULD BE ANGRY AS WELL

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 10:18 AM

the money in the bank belongs to me and not sir fred so he did 'steal ' money

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,Rusty Dobro
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 11:55 AM

Genuine question - I really want to know the answer. It's easy to see (or find out) who lost all this money, but where has it gone? For every loser, there must be a winner somewhere. Who is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 11:57 AM

Ah, got me cookie back!

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 12:10 PM

I don't approve of vandalism, but I do like to see the people at the top getting nervous. I just wonder if there is a more effective and less illegal way to get that result besides destroying someone's property.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 12:15 PM

"You stick around in a devolving country, where vandalism is applauded and violence is on the increase. I'll continue to live here is (generally) peace and quiet."

OK Rap, eat this:-

From Wikipedia - "The number of homicides committed with firearms has remained between a range of 49 and 97 in the 8 years to 2006. There were 2 fatal shootings of police officers in England and Wales in this period and 107 non-fatal shootings - an average of 9.7 per year over the same period.[27]

In 2005/6 the police in England and Wales reported 50 gun homicides, a rate of 0.1 illegal gun deaths per 100,000 of population. Only 6.6% of homicides involved the use of a firearm. [27]"

That's between 49 and 97 per year, Rap - 50 in 2005/6. In a country with a population of 60m. The US has 300m population so, pro-rata the UK rate up to reflect the US population and you get between 245 and 485, should have been 250 for 2005/6. In fact, your country has >3,000 homicides by shooting per year. That's twelve times the UK rate.

So Rap, who is it who lives in the more peaceful country?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 12:31 PM

What's the total homicide rate in the UK (homicide by all means) and how does that compare to the total homicide rate in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 12:38 PM

Murders per 1000 head of [population


UK 0.0140633 per 1,000 people 46th in the world

US 0.042802 per 1,000 people 24th in the world

So three times as many murders in the US as in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 12:46 PM

Looks like the UK is a much more peaceful place than the US, overall.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Megan L
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 12:51 PM

Yes but like all statistics they do not tell the whole story I am quite sure there are places in america that are far safer than living in some of the cities here. stats can always be manipulated to present the picture the person wants

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 01:09 PM

"I suggest to you take some responsibility for what you say or someday someone is going to take great umbrage and bloody your nose -- or worse."

I have always taken complete responsibility for what I say and I'm still around and relatively unscathed. In fact, the last person who decided to inflict any form of serious injury on me was many years ago on a Saturday night in the Hull docklands - a three-fingered trawlerman who decided to augment his lack of digits with a fish-gutting knife (sounds like a Mike Waterson song). After some interesting embroidery at Hull Infirmary A&E and a change of underwear, I made the decision that busking was a safer way to earn money than fighting, although I did later come across my opponent in a pub and found that somehow I'd managed to dislocate his shoulder and crack three of his ribs. Ah, happy days! We got ratted together, swore undying love and I never saw him again.

Thanks for asking - the scars have pretty much gone now - and fortunately, in my seventh decade, I've now got two very large sons to keep me out of mischief :0

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 01:56 PM

The homicide rate in the US is heavily influenced and badly skewed by the murder rate in its cities. We have BIG cities in this country and statistically they are dangerous. Even then, there are pockets and areas where the rate is nothing like it is in the inner cities.

And those of us who live outside the cities - FAR outside the cities - experience very little of the violence that people across the oceans hear about.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 02:10 PM

I don't think that's really the case. In 2006, Alaska had the seventh highest rate of violent crime of all the states, despite its extremely low population density.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 02:24 PM

CarolC, I was not specifically speaking of Alaska.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 02:33 PM

Perhaps not, but I do think it sort of disproves the idea that large urban areas necessarily have the most violent crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 02:40 PM

They need to do something to keep warm Carol.
All that snow and ice, AND Sarah Palin!
I think they deserve our sympathy and understanding ;)




Just joking Ebbie
¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 03:12 PM

Sarah Palin is just about the greatest pain right now, John. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 03:38 PM

It's amazing how the general public has been brainwashed into believing that resorting to violence is wrong. It may have escaped ypur notice, but the USA are currently resorting to violence all over the Middle-east! These bankers are destroying lives but don't think of raising a finger to hurt them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: meself
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 03:54 PM

Yes, wouldn't it be lovely to live in one of those places where the general public has not been "brainwashed into believing that resorting to violence is wrong"? There are plenty of them on this planet; take your pick. I'll stay where I am, thank you ...

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 04:13 PM

Alaska is in a fairly unique position. No one really knows why it is as violent as it is but doubtless among the elements: Long periods of inclement weather and darkness, causing high rates of depression and despair. The reverse phenomenon of long hours of daylight that seriously disturbs some people. Difficulties of movement - not many highways. Villages with long-held methods and traditions of retribution and revenge. A culture of guns and knives based on trapping, hunting and subsistence. Climates and terrain that are frequently unforgiving.

In addition, it has a transient population with many immigrants seeking and expecting to live the way they want to without interference from the law. Many, many people come up here with totally unrealistic views of current Alaska; they fantasize building a cabin in the wilds somewhere and living off the land with little need for money. Often they arrive here with a thousand dollars in their pockets expecting that to be enough to hold them until they find a job. Then they find that their cabin in the woods is burnt to the ground by the Parks Service and their being evicted, at gunpoint, if necessary. The thousand dollars doesn't even cover getting an apartment.

At the same time, individual regions have extremely low rates of serious crime. Juneau police often say that duty here is much less stressful than any other place they have been.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 04:35 PM

So even in Alaska, the urban areas do not necessarily have the most violent crime as compared to other areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 04:44 PM

I can't understand why this debate is now about violent crime. The attack on Goodwin's house was an attack on property. No-one was hurt, nor was it the intention of the Bankers Are Ciminals group to hurt anyone.

It was a protest about the fact that leeches like Goodwin get away with actions that should, in any right-thinking society, be criminal. By perpetrating and act that hurt no-one yet was deemed criminal they are showing how morally bankrupt our society has become.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Megan L
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 04:49 PM

Ebbie looks like you get a similar problem to us Whitesettlers the people who couldny hack it down in London or wherever come up here having sold a tiny flat they can aford a farm "Oh we will be farmers" "Have you any farming skills? do you know anything about animal husbandry or crops?" "No dont be silly I was a designer before we left London." When things fail because of thier incompetance they blame Orkney and the Orcadians.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 04:58 PM

The problem with using property damage to make a point is that it pretty much always has a backlash, and results in discrediting the whole movement to bring people responsible for these kinds of things to account. I think a more effective way needs to be found.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 05:52 PM

Juneau, CarolC, is urban - we have one little "farm" that consists of 5 acres - but it has only a little over 30,000 in population so it is scarcely representative of city life, per se. Juneau is #3 in population size in Alaska; of our 600,000 plus state population far more people live in villages of hundreds, rather than thousands, of people.

Anchorage, at 250,000 plus, is more typical of cities everywhere. It is about 600 air miles from Juneau. If one goes by surface from Juneau, it entails 4 1/2 hours on the water and then about 800 miles over land.

By the way, I read the other day that if Manhattan had the same population density as Alaska, it would have 16 residents!

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 12:28 AM

It looks like the police in Juneau were saying that there is less crime in Juneau than in less populated parts of Alaska, when they said that duty in Juneau is much less stressful than anyplace else.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 04:24 AM

"I can't understand why this debate is now about violent crime"

Well, mainly because someone started making statements about how big and plentiful his weapons are, how much 'ammo' he's got, and how ready, willing and able he is to commit grievous bodily harm, or even murder. Those of our forum with sensitive noses may well have detected a strong smell of testosterone.

My old dad had a mantra regarding aggression and aggressors, which went along the lines of "Don't worry about people who make loud threats, they seldom carry them out, but always fear and respect the Quiet Man".

CarolC and Ebbie's posts are very interesting and enlightening, thanks ladies. The perception that some US-ers seem presently to have of the UK - people with guns running amok in their thousands, blowing away everyone they see, young black men armed to the teeth with knives terrifying the whole population, crowds out rioting in the streets every time a banker farts - just ain't true. We have a few pockets of violent crime (yup, like the USA, mostly the BIG cities like London, Manchester), but in the main it's a peaceful place. Hell, if you wanna see protest and riots, take a look at French farmers!

And I'd lay my pension on the vast majority of British people never having even seen a gun in private or in public, except very, very occasionally in the hands of our armed forces and officers of the police ARU's.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 05:27 AM

I agree with much of what you say B/Wman, but what do we do when the "radicals" start disappearing from our society?
Do we just lie down and accept it?

I see many parallels between the Europe of the 1930s and the situation today. As I have said many times, the people who run and reallyt benefit from the capitalist system, will never ride off into the sunset. The power and privilige that they have held for centuries will have to be torn from them by blood and sweat.....and it's always the radicals who do the bleeding. Those with the slightest amount of money or power to be lost will stand back and shake their heads....pleading ignorance when the bloody game is over

The present shambles cant be fixed and I hope to see in the coming week massive demonstrations against the system....and more importantly, to see people begin to understand what they are demonstrating about. Not corrupt politicians, not greedy bankers, not a broken society.......but an economic/social system which encourages us to do disregard and abuse our fellow creatures.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 07:17 AM

I am the Quiet Man .

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 07:27 AM

Thanks Ake. I agree we need Radicals in our society, and I've no problem with peaceful demonstrations. But what we don't need are people who are only good at talking tough from behind a loaded gun, or good at bricking people's windows, or good at putting the frighteners on their intended victims' wives and children. They are just bullies and cowards.

What we need are people with brains, and workable, socially equitable policies. And honesty and fairness in their hearts.

And that's me out. Truly.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 08:35 AM

"Respek" Captain

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 10:11 AM

So you are really Ian Duncan Smith Cap'n?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 11:20 AM

Getting nervy here in London.

Friends are talking about wednesday and thursday being city centre smash up days.

I bloody hope not.

But I suspect they may be right.

People from out of town and indeed out of country will come and smash up public sevices that people on the bottom rung (like me) rely on.

They will then fly out the way they flew in feeling smug about their destruction while we suffer the consequences, and wish we could afford a ticket out too.

Those are the ones I hate.

The ones who have the money to fly to other peoples homes and smash them to pieces.

The banks have cost us enough without rioters adding to the bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 11:28 AM

"I am the Quiet Man ."

Ah yes, Dick, but I believe you have a concertina primed and ready for action.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 11:58 AM

Guest/lox, that is my tangential point. When people wreck businesses, homes, vehicles, or services they are demollishing their own neighborhoods. I see no virtue in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 12:00 PM

I believe I am turning into a Concertina[like the third policeman and his bike]
I have already been playing it,for a couple of hours today,I am off to do a bit more.
out of respect for other mudcat members
I am not getting involved in the Mudcat Parody thread again ,despite attempts to rattle my cage.
I am reminded of the line some men rob with a shotgun,and others with a fountain pen,but I never saw an outlaw turn a poor man from his home.
lox,I hope you have a peaceful night

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 12:41 PM

I've had a look at the Climate Camp website and my offices seem to be pretty much in the centre of things (right next to the Gherkin). We might all be working from home on those days. However, I'm impressed by the amount of organisation these people have put in to it and I'm sure they will be trying to keep a lid on pointless vandalism. I suspect that what will happen is that after the main protests are over and people are on their way home a small element will stay behind to try to cause serious trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: meself
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 12:46 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 12:53 PM

"People from out of town and indeed out of country will come and smash up public sevices that people on the bottom rung (like me) rely on."

Hmmm.....So its OK if they come from "out of country" to take our jobs, but not to break our windows?

The system needed cheap labour, and competition for manual work, to keep wage rates low. Is that not worse than breaking a few windows?

Perhaps if we sit around singing Kumbaya the nasty capitalists will feel ashamed of themselves and give up their ideology.
But ah ha'e ma doots!

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 01:52 PM

I have friends in Athens.

One of them made a film after the riots there showing the devastation that was caused by the random violence against property and public services.

Who suffered? Ordinary Athenians who had to pay for the damage to be fixed and live in the mess.

Many of the worst culprits were young people with money who were privileged to be able to fly in from other countries with the specific purpose of causing as much disruption as possible before flying off the the next demo at the next G8, G20, G(x).

Such people are destructive in the extreme, inconsiderate in the extreme and hypocritical in the extreme as the only people who really suffer as a result of their actions are local poor people who rely on the infrastructure, small businesses and public services that get trashed.


Ake

So they "come from 'out of country' to take our jobs" do they?

Which "they" are you talking about?

Anarchists who follow the Gx meetings around the world?

Or are you just referring to spics, darkies, yids and micks?

Oh you mean the latter?

Well in that case we are not talking about the same "they".

So your point has no relevance to mine.

Interesting that you should seize such a tenuous opportunity to bring the focus of this dicussion round to your views on immigration.

Ladies and Gents, a masterclass in thread hijacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 02:36 PM

Fascinating, detailed coverage about the "who" at salon.com: Globalization and its Discontents

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 02:39 PM

OOps! It's eight years old. Was Seattle really eight years ago?? I can't keep up with the revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 02:45 PM

Hell I'm still wondering when they fixed the ozone hole and moved on to CO2.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 05:37 PM

Lox....I have nothing against "spics, darkies, yids and micks"(your words,I don't even know the meaning of "spics"). Immigrants were encouraged to come here by our government for the political and economic reasons I have posted above, you accept that as fair, yet smear anti- capitalist activists as foreign vandals.
Capitalism is global, and humanity should be united against it.
I see all colours and creeds as part of the human family, but capitalist governments exploit the workforce of poorer nations to drive down the conditions of their own people. You seem to see no wrong in that, so which of us is the racist?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 05:43 PM

Heric thanks for that link.....very interesting.
If I didn't live so far away, I would definitely be among the demonstrators in London.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 05:48 PM

Nothing more useless than these demonstrations. Any who riot deserve broken heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 08:33 PM

"yet smear anti- capitalist activists as foreign vandals"

where?


There will be people coming to london this week who intend to "get stuck in". Some will be from abroad, some will be (as you may note I said in the first post that you have very selectively responded to) from "out of town".

I don't know about you, but I am not such an arrogant Londoner as to see people from out of town as foreigners.



So I am clearly not talking about foreigners but people who go to events like this with the intention of "getting stuck in".


I know people who have travelled overseas to take part in Demos who have packed their trendy PLO scarf to wrap around their face in anticipation of geting "stuck in when it all kicks off".

I've been on the front line at demos and watched people like that spoil for a fight.

So I know exactly who I'm talking about and I have categorized them according to their methods not their nationality.

My category is specifically as follows - rioters who are non resident in a place where they intend to deliberately cause damage and destruction, and who will not have to live in the mess they have created nor bear the cost of the clean up, that privilege being set aside especially for those on the bottom rungs of the ladder whose lives will as a consequence be a bit harder.

Fly in, bus in, train in ... smash it up ... fly out etc.

Ok - so we're clear on that point now.


And isn't it a lovely irony that the people who clear up after them and fix the damage will most likely be immigrants from Eastern Europe and Africa ... most of the street cleaners and builders around my way are anyway.


I know who I'd rather have around.


But why are we talking about foreigners anyway?

Oh I remember - because that was your cue to start complaining about "them" coming over here and taking our jobs - well if any unemployed Brits are willing to help clean up the mess I reckon there'll be plenty of vacancies.

I retract the terms "spics, darkies, yids and micks" and replace them with your term:- "foreigners"

It sounds so much more palatable.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 08:35 PM

"Murder rates are highest in cities with populations greater than 250,000 and decline for each decreasing city-size category, to a low of 3.0 per 100,000 for cities under 10,000. A similar pattern is seen for robbery, where arrest rates are over six times higher in the largest, as opposed to the smallest, cities. However, there are no clear differences in arrest rates across city size categories for the crime of larceny-theft. Although rural-urban distinctions based exclusively on size of place are not ideal, this pattern of a strong relationship between city size and violent crime rates and weaker relationships for property crimes generally holds for several different societies and in several different historical periods."

http://law.jrank.org/pages/1990/Rural-Crime-Urban-rural-crime-differences.html

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 11:32 PM

Thanks, heric.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:30 AM

Last night I saw a study saying that incidents of violent crime were more prevalent in the small sized cities than in large cities and rural areas (don't remember where I saw it, though). Kind of hard to know what to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:35 AM

The homicide rate in Alaska is preposterously low (13/683,478 = .019 on the Giok scale), only 35% higher than UK, and less than half of the American tradition. They must never find the bodies. (13 murdered against 2800 or so "missing.")

But we digress.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:03 AM

heric, where did you find those stats? Here is what I found:

The Year: 2007

Murder rate per 100,000 people

Louisiana        14.2
Maryland        9.8
Alabama               8.9
New Mexico        8.2
South Carolina        8.0
Georgia               7.5
Nevada               7.5
Arizona               7.4
Mississippi        7.1
Arkansas        6.7
Michigan        6.7
Florida               6.6
Missouri        6.5
North Carolina        6.5
Alaska               6.4

California comes in at 6.2.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 06:57 AM

There will be people coming to London this week who intend to "get stuck in". Some will be from abroad, some will be (as you may note I said in the first post that you have very selectively responded to) from "out of town".

Sounds no different to a football (soccer) match!

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:16 AM

By the way Ake, I would like to make clear that I don't believe you are racist.

It would indeed be totally against the grain of your otherwise thought provoking perspectives.

I do think you've gone and dug yourself into a hole after first being suckered in by the most facile and easy to swallow bit of resentment baiting that the far right has to offer.

Unlike many other preposterous ideas, you don't have to dig very deep for very long to expose that legal working immigrants in this country contribute to the economy and the quality of our lives in infinitely greater measure than they detract from it.

I totally reject the age old rubbish that foreigners come over here and take our jobs.

And here's a glimpse of why.

There was unemployment before the windrush came (up to 25% during the depression), there was unemployment of about 2% consistently after the windrush came, there was unemployment after Idi Amin drove ethnic Indians out of Uganda (around 3% and that stayed the same till about 1976-77 when it went up to around 6% where it stayed till about 1980).

So far so good ... the age of immigration seems to have been very positive in terms of employment in the UK.

It certainly isn't any worse than the periods before either of the two wars, from 1890 to 1910 or through the 20's and 30's.

Between 1980 and 2000 there have been fluctuations going up to about 12 percent at the maximum, but ultimately coming back down to around 6%.

From 2000 to 2009, it has been pretty low averaging around 3%

In Addition to this, the quality of people jobs has improved and with them, peoples expectations.

There is evidence for all of the above
here

and
here

Of those unemployed, how many were out of work because their job was "stolen" by a foreigner, how many because they saw themself as too good for the jobs available, and how many have inherited a life of dependance on the state from thier parents grandparents.

And yes, I know that the above analysis is extremely simplistic, however, compared to the view that all the jobs have gone to foreigners it looks like an exhaustively researched Phd.

You know what I think? If we got rid of all our foreigners there would still be unemployment.

And the theory you have so gladly bought into would require another scapegoat -

- women (don't forget that there are a lot more women working today than there were 50 years ago - tsk - stealing our jobs) ...

... jews ... it happened not that long ago in modern, civilized progressive scientific Germany - why are we any better than those Germans who took the bait then? we're all human.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:38 AM

While we're on this tack, I just wonder, as unemployment in the UK grows, how many British people would consider taking the big step of seeking work in another country.

I did it in 1976 when I was unemployed – I went to South Africa for 2 years until they threw me out (I guess my views didn't quite fit in with those of the apartheid-supporting government of the time).

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 09:44 AM

Ebbie I'm helpless with numbers, but I used 13 from here:

http://gov.state.ak.us/omb/results/view_details.php?p=136

(But now I see that's "within Alaska State Trooper Jurisdiction")

and used ppopulation number (683,478) from some other web site.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Musket
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 10:05 AM

I would never condone criminal activities. After all, once Freddie Goodwin has been hung from a tree, they might come for me because my face doesn't fit either. The they might look at your face. And his, oh and hers.

The UK is a democracy. Fighting is done at the ballot box. Nobody does badly and we have all won the lottery. Full stop,

Even if you live on basic benefits, you have won the lottery. Full stop.

Go to those countries where direct action sways politicians and you will see why a UK resident has won the lottery. Mind you, if you do go, make sure you agree with the trouble makers.

I thought I was on Mudcat, not some reactionary hippie version of the Daily Mail....

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 10:30 AM

"I thought I was on Mudcat, not some reactionary hippie version of the Daily Mail.... "

Ah, Ian, so you don't think that discussion of one of the major political issues for decades; that affects the livelihoods of millions of people, merits discussion on Mudcat. Well, of course, what would a bunch of hippies know about serious politics?

Once you've removed your head from the sand, it may interest you that one of the major organisers of the rally on 2nd April is Put People First, described by The New Statesmen as:

"The coalition...is a new alliance of unions, non-governmental organisations and religious groups, armed with a manifesto that aims to rewrite the rules of the global economy. Put People First has already created a significant alliance – more than a hundred groups from Greenpeace to the Dalit Solidarity Network via the NUJ and the Muslim Council of Britain have signed up so far."

Like you say, just a bunch of hippies.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Musket
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 10:44 AM

Perhaps a bunch of people from all walks of life having a quiet protest is a tradition of this country. Perhaps I may even agree that the boom bust of fiscal policy does not fit the international "village" that economists have been taught to pray on the alter of.

But this thread started with idiots claiming that breaking the law is a good thing.

That is what I object to.

I read some good debates on mudcat, hence I still have a browse now and then. I agree with some, disagree with others and sometimes put my view. However, the reactionary "us & them" twaddle in some comments on this thread DO remind me of The Daily Mail. the constituency may not be middle England and the subject isn't asylum seekers affecting house prices... but the vitriol and acceptance of criminal activity is frankly disturbing.

If a thread is by it's title, condoning violence and criminal activity, I have every right to blow raspberries at it. And will do.

Oh, and I will be in London on Wednesday actually. However, I will be in my office getting on with doing far more productive for the country than standing outside giving respectability for a bunch of anarchists.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 11:46 AM

1.        "How then do the dispossessed regain what was theirs but by renouncing politics and law in favour of what they can control? They will of course lose the pitched battle, for politics and law control the armies.

That leaves guerilla warfare.

Burn baby burn." – Richard Bridge exemplar of the English Legal Profession

2.        "Looks like it's going to be a very hot summer - bring on the revolution!" – theleveller

3.        Descriptions of those protesting – "well-educated individuals conducting an organized assault" – "likely to be young, highly motivated, well-educated individuals"

Guest Lox mentioned "Protest Tourists" probably like these individuals:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/7972231.stm

To Richard Bridge and theleveller I rather hope that if there are any such other "clowns" out there similarly equipped and like minded that both of you will have the good grace to tamp down all yells of police brutality and over reaction if any of them get their bloody silly heads blown off.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:08 PM

Let's hear it for vigilantism. Why just Sir Freddie - I know other bankers too, they are high up in their organisation, so they must be pretty evil; let's put a few bricks of justice through their windows too. And then we'll take a copy of the sex offenders' register and petrol-bomb the cars of a few registrants, while they are safely parked of course and with nobody inside. By the time our appetite will really be whetted so we'll take on a few xxxxxxxxxxs .

Dictators rely on such thinking to build their support. Quick, sign up now and you'll get the shirt for free.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:10 PM

for xxxxxxxxx's: insert preferred brand of deviant/offender/ethically suspect person.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:44 PM

I was pm-ed by a "respectable" UKer who made the point that in the UK there is a tradition of physically assaulting buildings and other properties with the intent of protest that is readily understood.

I don't understand the concept, frankly. It reminds me forcibly of peasants and serfs attacking the barns and buildings of their feudal overlords.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: heric
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 01:03 PM

Here's a map and rough chronology of London official and protest events:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&ll=51.507674,-0.022316&spn=0.160479,0.307617&z=12&msid=112463924814795169379.000466514a7de99534cde

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 01:13 PM

The Peasants Revolt

"In June 1381, Kentish rebels formed behind Wat Tyler and joined with rebels from Essex and marched on London. When the rebels arrived in Blackheath on June 12, the renegade Lollard priest, John Ball, preached a sermon including the famous question that has echoed down the centuries: "When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?".
The following day, the rebels, encouraged by the sermon, crossed London Bridge into the heart of the city. Meanwhile the 'Men of Essex' had gathered with Jack Straw at Great Baddow and had marched on London, arriving at Stepney.

Instead of what was expected from a riot however, there was only a systematic attack on certain properties, many of them associated with John of Gaunt

Although the Revolt is generally considered a failure, it did succeed in showing the peasants that they were of some value and had some power. In the longer term, the revolt became a formative influence upon the radical tradition within British politics"

- Wiki

John Ball, by Sydney Carter

Who will be the lady, Who will be the lord,
When we are ruled By the love of another?
Tell me, Who will be the lady, Who will be the lord,
In the light that is coming In the morning.

Chorus
Sing, John Ball
And tell it to them all -
Long live the day that is dawning!
And I'll crow like a cock,
I'll carol like a lark,
For the light that is coming
In the morning.

Eve is the lady, Adam is the lord,
When we are ruled By the love of another,
oh it's Eve is the lady, Adam is the lord,
In the light that is coming In the morning.

Chorus

All shall be ruled By fellowship I say,
All shall be ruled By the love of one another,
All shall be ruled By fellowship I say,
In the light that is coming In the morning.

Chorus

Labour and spin For fellowship I say,
Labour and spin For the love of one another.
Labour and spin For fellowship I say,
And the light that is coming In the morning.

-- John Ball, priest, social reformer. (hanged 1381)

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 01:21 PM

"John Ball, priest, social reformer. (hanged 1381)"

Ah. I see. It did him a lot of good. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:01 PM

Revolting Peasants website and just for good measure heres ours http://www.myspace.com/harriwattsband because we know them.......have a wonderful day

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Maryrrf
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:17 PM

I find it easy to sympathize with these protestors on an emotional level but I don't think these kinds of actions accomplish anything. Peaceful marches, demonstrations, and other types of grassroots movements that don't involve violence are a better option. Things were different in the middle ages. The peasants back then had it much worse, had far fewer options, and the times were just much more rough and violent anyway. To cavalierly dismiss John Ball is a little bit facetious, I think. John Ball suffered grieviously for his beliefs and actions, but inspired reformers for many generations to come with his eloquence and sincerity.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:45 PM

Ebbie the English have an inexplicable affection for 'Heroic Failure' - how else would you explain Eddie 'the Eagle' Edwards?

To keep the musical tributes to protest going.....

World Turned Upside Down - live from the Tolpuddle Festival

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: meself
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 03:25 PM

How 'heroic' is tossing a rock through a window? How about throwing a brick at a cop?

Just wondering.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 03:56 PM

"I will be in my office getting on with doing far more productive for the country than standing outside giving respectability for a bunch of anarchists. "

Well bully for you. In your smug self-satisfaction I don't suppose you'll be sparing a thought for those hundreds of thousands of people who, like me, have lost their jobs because of the actions of a load of greedy, morally bankrupt financiers. But as we are now anarchists as well as hippies, perhaps you'd like to add, despite my having worked for over 40 years, 'layabouts' and 'spongers'. Quite frankly, people like you make me sick.


"To Richard Bridge and theleveller I rather hope that if there are any such other "clowns" out there similarly equipped and like minded that both of you will have the good grace to tamp down all yells of police brutality and over reaction if any of them get their bloody silly heads blown off."

Let me repeat, for those who haven't got the message yet: "My views on guns for any reason are well-known". By that, I mean that I abhor all firearms. One reason for this is that my eldest son is a member of a police ARU (armed response unit)who has to face armed criminals. Now, teribus, have you finally got that or are you going to continue with your usual practice of distorting what other people say?

"Dictators rely on such thinking to build their support. Quick, sign up now and you'll get the shirt for free."

No, George, dictators maintain their positions by not pallowing any form of protest and brutally surpessing any form of opposition. It's people having the courage to protest about the abuses in society that get things changed - like the slave trade, supression of women's rights, child labour, the death penalty etc. - all perfectly legal until someone had the courage to stand up against the wrath of the establishment and say that they were wrong. Folk music is full of songs about them. Read Emma's post above.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 04:26 PM

To put things in a wider context, you will note that I said I had been on the front line of protests where I had witnessed some people spoiling for fights with the cops.

Well something to draw from that comment is that I support the principle of demonstration and support the vast majority of the demonstrators who will be voicing legitimate concernes in a legitimate way.

I may even join them.

But being a resident in London, not too far from canary wharf, I am concerned that the destruction and violence could affect my community in a deeply damaging way.

My reason for this has been the newspaper reports talking of the police preparations and their tough talking/scaremongering.

It is being hyped up as quite the battle.

Like I said - I hope not.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 04:42 PM

" the newspaper reports talking of the police preparations and their tough talking/scaremongering." - self predicticting prophesy? I hope not but......

Harvey Kershaw's Peterloo as sung by The Oldham Tinkers

From Peterloo to the Pankhursts a radical legacy

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 04:54 PM

"...bring on the revolution!" – theleveller.

I take it therefore leveller that your son, the member of a police ARU is looking forward to this revolution as keenly as you appear to be, because believe me irrespective of what your views on guns for any reason are, in this revolution at one point or other they will be used - and your son, with his gun, will have to respond. Perhaps the "clowns" detained in Plymouth were intent on travelling to the G20 to provoke just such an incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: heric
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:42 PM

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice

Excerpt:

Squeezing the oligarchs, though, is seldom the strategy of choice among emerging-market governments. Quite the contrary: at the outset of the crisis, the oligarchs are usually among the first to get extra help from the government, such as preferential access to foreign currency, or maybe a nice tax break, or—here's a classic Kremlin bailout technique—the assumption of private debt obligations by the government. Under duress, generosity toward old friends takes many innovative forms. Meanwhile, needing to squeeze someone, most emerging-market governments look first to ordinary working folk—at least until the riots grow too large.

Eventually, as the oligarchs in Putin's Russia now realize, some within the elite have to lose out before recovery can begin. It's a game of musical chairs: there just aren't enough currency reserves to take care of everyone, and the government cannot afford to take over private-sector debt completely."

Substitute "UK" or "US" for "emerging markets."

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:48 PM

But being a resident in London, not too far from canary wharf, I am concerned that the destruction and violence could affect my community in a deeply damaging way." Guest/lox

There are those, lox, who appear to feel that as long as it is not their own community they are perfectly willing to have other   communities affected in deeply damaging ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:51 PM

Look. You are being oppressed. You have the choice of kissing arse and hoping for rewards. Or you learn, most recently in UK history, from the IRA. You blow the (insert suitable epithet) up. I think they were wrong, but their methods succeeded.

FFS go and read your Marx. The failure of capitalism (acknowledged even today in the far-right-wing Evening Standard to be unstable) will lead to revolution.

Gentility will not bring change.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 08:05 PM

Richard Bridge, history seems to show us that violence and persecution are not a good road to change. Historically they put people's backs up. Look at England in the last big war, or more recently look at what has happened in Israel and Palestine.

As someone once said, since negotiation is what ends most wars, why not negotiate first?

Frankly, I don't close to understanding how a person who practices law and presumably has a grasp on the concept can advocate lawlessness and feel comfortable with inciting violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 08:57 PM

The plan seems a little fuzzy around the edges.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 01:10 AM

"Look. You are being oppressed. You have the choice of kissing arse and hoping for rewards. Or you learn, most recently in UK history, from the IRA. You blow the (insert suitable epithet) up. I think they were wrong, but their methods succeeded." - Richard Bridge

Richard, the IRA succeeded in nothing apart from being directly responsible for the deaths of about 2,100 of their own countrymen and maiming and injuring many thousands more. In doing so they economically destroyed the the communities they operated in, and still to this day leave behind them an atmosphere of hate and intimidation - but then I forgot that's the type of "justice" that you'd opt for.

If you doubt what I have said above Richard take a good look at the PSNI and its constitution. Policing was one of the base causes for complaint, the "new" police service had to be repesentative of the community it served. So Richard after thirty plus years (Some might say taking recent events into mind that we are still in it) of "The Troubles" we have a police service that is predominantly protestant now you tell me was it worth it. Everything, repeat everything, that has been gained politically in Northern Ireland the NICRA were on the verge of winning about forty years ago - the "Official IRA" realised that and stayed out of it, the "Provisional IRA" did not and managed to delay political advancement in Northern Ireland for three decades. And you Mr Bridge would not know "oppression" if it jumped up and bit you in the arse, you want to go to a few places around the world where it exists, then come back to the UK and actually explore the avenues available to you to implemment change peacefully - heaving bricks through the windows of people you don't happen to like is not one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:31 AM

"in this revolution at one point or other they will be used - and your son, with his gun, will have to respond."

Completely disagree that the use of guns is inevitable in a revolution(certainly not the sort of revolution I am advocating). As usual, you are putting forward the most extreme scenario possible simply on the fact that a bunch of idiots has been found possessing FAKE guns with no proof that these were intended for use during the forthcoming protests.

revolution (CHANGE)   noun [C]
a very important change in the way that people do things

revolutionary   adjective
completely new and having a great effect:

revolutionize, UK USUALLY revolutionise   verb [T]
to completely change something so that it is much better:

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:36 AM

There is a very thin line between the "do nothing liberal" and the rabid Fascist. In the Europe of the 1930's and 40's, do you think that the Italian, German, and Spanish people did not see what was happening to their societies?
The vast majority were just like you, apathetic, frightened to lose what they believed they had, but in reality had not.....every thing could be "fixed", all they needed was a strong leader!
The people who opposed Fascism right from the start, were the anarchists and Communists, they died in their thousands fighting against tyranny and later in Hitlers death camps; their passing barely acknowleged by the "liberals" of today, who are so busy fighting their own brave battles against golliwogs and Popes.

Richard is so right....time to grasp the nettle, the chance won't come again.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:11 AM

Looks like the trouble has already started. Those Conservatives - right load of bloody troublemakers.

"Journalists, politics and drink have long been suspected of being a volatile mix, but the recipe may have been even more combustible than usual last night when police used CS spray to break up a fight in the House of Commons.

An argument that appears to have started at a Conservative party reception spilt over into a neighbouring part of the Palace of Westminster. One man - thought to be a journalist - was arrested in the fracas in which a police officer received minor injuries. "

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:24 AM

Ake, I agree about the dangers of apathy, and I do not condone it. But I draw the line where this gives licence for vigilantism - and I can't call the incidents against Goodwin's house and car anything else. It is not a million miles away from lynching.

Putting a brick through someone's window and damaging their car is not legitimate protest and uprising. Nothing like demonstrations, sit-ins, strikes, work-to-rules, organising votes or protesting. It is nothing like the Diggers' non-violent actions and courage - so let's not besmirch those heroes by comparing this event to their protest. It is not even like the actions of the Luddites - the latter focused on destroying the tools that threatened them, not anyone's personal property, no matter whether they considered it ill-gotten gains.

No, this is revenge-taking and scape-goating, pure and simple, and it occupies the same moral ground as any vengeful action. And if they thought that they represented others with their action, let me make it unequivocal:

NOT IN MY NAME

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:16 AM

"It is not even like the actions of the Luddites - the latter focused on destroying the tools that threatened them, not anyone's personal property"


I think you're wrong there, George, and I'd say there was a very strong correlation to the Luddites who were fighting to preserve their livelihoods from greedy and unscrupulous profiteers. What I would not have condoned was the murder of mill owner William Horsfall. The Luddites paid dear for their actions: 3 were hung for Horsfall's murder, thirteen more were hung for an earlier attack on Rawfold's Mill.

On 21st April 1812 the house of mill owner, Emanuel Burton was burnt down.

After a further attack on Wray and Dunscroff's mill, four people were hanged, including a 12 year old boy who cried for his mother on the scaffold. Later in 1812 8 men were hanged in Lancashire and a further 15 hanged in York. When asked if they could all be hung on the same scaffold , the judge said "They'll hang more comfortably on two".


There is a long tradition in this country of taking direct action to create a fairer society. Sometime the end justifies the means.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Megan L
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:17 AM

Violence and vandalisim NEVER justify anything

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:36 AM

Most importantly, it is ultimately counterproductive as goodwin will get his car fixed and his insurance company will pay for it not him.

He will just pick up his phone in the bahamas to be told all about it in retrospect by his accountant.

So it is pointless and counterproductive.

If London Gets smashed up, it won't be big business who suffers, they will claim on their insurance too. It certainly won't be any of the foreign dignitaries present or their entourage.

It will be local residents who use the buses, buy lunch at the cafes, drive on the roads, commute on the trains, rely on the railway stations ... and it will be small business owners who run the cafe, own the shop, rely on the pub etc ... not to mention that have to walk/drive/commute through the shit.

When mindless vandalism occurs, those at the top only read about it afterwards. Those at the bottom suffer the consequences.

Who are we meant to be fighting?

So shouldn't we think about a strategy that targets the right people in an effective way?

And shouldn't we be absolutely clear about what we are trying to achieve?

Great - Fred Goodwins car is temporarily damaged while he is out of the country - I really feel that the tables have turned - boy - thanks guys - social justice is here again.

Bollocks

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:52 AM

"So shouldn't we think about a strategy that targets the right people in an effective way?

And shouldn't we be absolutely clear about what we are trying to achieve?"

If you could be arsed, it's not hard to find out. Nick Dearden, of the Put People First campaign, said:

"For decades, we've been campaigning to make the global financial architecture fair and sustainable. Now that it's collapsed, that message is more relevant than ever....we wanted to bring a coalition together to make clear what needed to be done. The interest has been quite amazing. What's really significant about this is the marrying up of unions, environmental groups, trade justice groups, religious groups – all of them uniting for the first time around a common manifesto which we are demanding the G20 adopts."

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 08:45 AM

Protest if you want.

Like George who uses some big words :-)

Voilence and Vandalism

NOT IN MY NAME

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 09:40 AM

It's V-I-O-Lence! Tut-tut Les, back to skool! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 09:56 AM

Oh dart and fkcu. Wher is my spel cheker :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 10:28 AM

LOL! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,the sad prophet
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 10:43 AM

I was a prophet. A disliked prophet.

The only prophets people enjoy for a limited time are the false prophets of doom and gloom or the type that promises good times and sounds like "god will deliver you riches if you give us your money".

For years I have warned about the international criminal corporations and finance criminals that were plundering the world.
While the commissions were rolling in there were few who knew the eventual outcome.

Here I have said numerous times in various ways for the last 10 years, "the ethics at work in the USA is to let all the evil and avarice in men's souls hatch out, if there is a day of reckoning our money will insure our continued happiness".

The evil hatched out, infected the world and now the outcome is just begining to be realized in everyone's life.

Few people here doubted what I was saying with the rare exception of people like robomatic, Doug R and Teribus. For folks like that there will be years of denial and a reversal of historic fact.



The sabotaged and failed lives of the victims of the corporate financial and banking families usually lash out at themselves and their community in ; school, church, nursing home, mall and home - SHOOTINGS.

That one group vandalized a true cause of their personal plight is at least honest and well directed!

When justice fails everyone by protecting only the richest criminals, a base, crude, ugly, ludricrous form of justice will fill the void.

The future will be full of the prolitariate seeking a revenge that will never fit the magnitude of the crimes they have suffered and will suffer for the rest of their lives.

Like Tony Soprano, ex CEO's like Mozillo sit and wait in fear, in their large gated communites protected by one gate guard in his little booth and perhaps a body guard while traveling incognito. They ponder the unfairness of it all and feel that their actions have been just in their perverted sense of the "American way".


All the financial crimes have been commited in your name as an American citizen. All the blame, violence and vandalism will be commited in your name. What we like to forget is...




We are all to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 10:58 AM

Don, your "prophetizing" has been haphazard and feverishly inclusive. It has ranged, imo, from valid to ludicrous.

This thread is addressing means and methods and mindsets of UK citizens in combatting what they perceive threats of immediacy.

It is not about "us". And it is not about "you".

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,Don
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:12 AM

What we like to forget is...




We are all to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,iest
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:16 AM

yes even you Ebbie.


When I was seven I had a repeating dream, probably inspired from an episode of the Twilight Zone, in which the TV announced that nuclear annihilation was only seven minutes away. I rushed out the front door as manu other neighbors suriously did and heard the mixed protestations from all the different people.
The comments all amounted to blaming each other...to the very end.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:21 AM

To both Goatfell and to Keith, next Monday I will find out how much was "stolen" from me, not RBS but HBOS. What is the betting that what I had lodged with them has increased as it does accrue interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:36 AM

The question that each and every one of us has to ask ourselves is – are you prepared to put your livelihood, your home and the future of your children in the custody of a discredited system and in the hands of greedy, dishonest and incompetent individuals who have screened themselves from the consequences of their own actions – or are you prepared to take action to change this?

If you go with the former, you will have to live with the consequences. You do it because you do not care enough and NOT IN MY NAME.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: goatfell
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:41 AM

well he's taken off the Tax payer for to keep his bank a float, not unless you don't pay tax?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:52 AM

"The question that each and every one of us has to ask ourselves is – are you prepared to put your livelihood, your home and the future of your children in the custody of a discredited system and in the hands of greedy, dishonest and incompetent individuals who have screened themselves from the consequences of their own actions"

And I bet the people of the former USSR are asking themselves the same question.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Musket
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 12:08 PM

Just noted that the leveller reckons we have a tradition of direct action to effect change in this country. So glad to hear it, because hitherto I thought we had a tradition of parliamentary democracy. Although we do have a tradition of hanging drawing and quartering rebels I suppose...

I am also extremely glad I make the leveller sick. It is part of growing up, being sick a lot. Something to do with your digestive system not being balanced until puberty. Perhaps when and if the leveller matures, he will stop being sick and deserve a place in respectable society. Until then, I note he called himself a layabout and scrounger. If the cap fits, wear it, but I don't know enough about you (or want to for that matter) to pass comment.

As I said, I will be at our London office, uncomfortably close to the area known as the city, tomorrow. I hope the police will do what tax payers ask of them and ensure my day is not impeded. I have enough distraction going to the voting station every three or four years. You see, that is how we effect change here. If you don't like it, find a different country or set up a party and get elected on your own manifesto.

Direct action does not work, and if it did, it would be a very sad day for civilisation. Nobody disagrees that the banking world has been too powerful over the years and the bubble has well and truly burst. But before we get too excited, the G20 are getting together to try and sort it. They may fail, but fettering their progress guarantees that they fail!

Is that simple enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 01:22 PM

>If you could be arsed, it's not hard to find out. Nick Dearden, of the >Put People First campaign, said:
>
>"For decades, we've been campaigning to make the global financial >architecture fair and sustainable. Now that it's collapsed, that >message is more relevant than ever....we wanted to bring a coalition >together to make clear what needed to be done. The interest has been >quite amazing. What's really significant about this is the marrying up >of unions, environmental groups, trade justice groups, religious >groups – all of them uniting for the first time around a common >manifesto which we are demanding the G20 adopts."

I note a distinct lack of endorsements of violence here - good.

In fact I reckon that vandalism and violence risk undoing the hard long term work that was done making the above a reality.

Another reason why violence and vandalism should not be encouraged.

Ian Mather, yes voting is a legitimate form of public enfranchisement.

So is public protest.

We have the right to demonstrate.

As long as it isn't violent, I am behind it all the way.

Freedom of speech, assembly and to protest are not only part of the British tradition, but essential ingredients of democracy.

Sorry if that gets in your way.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 02:14 PM

""I really don't believe what I am reading on here. I don't believe anyone has the right to attack any person or their property... isn't it against the law???""

Me neither Mike.

A totally misguided policy, as well as indefensible in law. All this incompetent, self serving government needs to justify an oppressive reaction, HANDED TO THEM ON A PLATE by these bloody fools, and they don't see the dangers.

VIOLENCE NEVER SOLVED A PROBLEM, except in children's television series (e.g. "Power Rangers") Probably where these fools got their notion of justice.

Anyway, we've been handed an example of how Goodwin was able to negotiate his obscene pension deal.

We have a Home Secretary, for Christ's sake, the person RESPONSIBLE for rule of law in the UK, who is under investigation for what amounts to fraud. And WE ARE THE VICTIMS of that fraud.

Also, our wonderful government once again leads by example.

Army given full recommended pay increase of 2.8%. Nothing wrong with that, given the job they do.
Senior civil servants cut back to 1.5%.   Reasonable; They don't (usually) risk death.
M.P.s pay up 2.33%.   Now THAT is what I call barefaced daylight robbery, combined with an abysmal ignorance of the plight of production workers currently being offered the choice of REDUNDANCY or PAY CUTS!

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:18 PM

Theleveller, regarding your last post, as you asked the question of all here, I will answer for myself: No, I am not prepared to put my livelihood, my home and the future of my children in the custody of a discredited system and in the hands of greedy, dishonest and incompetent individuals who have screened themselves from the consequences of their own actions. And yes, I am prepared to take action to change this. The right action, which can be many things.

But I will only resort to physical violence in defense against physical violence, and I will not act in violence first.

If that is insufficient commitment in your view, then let this be the defining difference between us. My principles stand, unchanged by circumstances. I live and will gladly die by them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:57 PM

George, let me for the umpteenth time say, yet again, to you, for whom I have the greatest respect, and to Ian Mather, for whom I have none, that I do not and will not condone violence. That people choose to lump together vandalism against property with violence against people is their problem. I do not. The two are totally and utterly different.

There, is that simple enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:08 PM

OK, theleveller, I get the salient difference, thanks for making it clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:21 PM

So you would be prepared to use violence George?.....Too much of a gentleman to strike the first blow?...and I'm not trying to be sarcastic.
When I was young and being bullied at school, I was given some good advice by my old uncle...."be sure tae get the first one in boy, the first one's the best and gey often the last."

Many here say violence doesn't work, its counter productive, but violence or the threat of violence is commonly used by the strong powers against the weak.....Have you forgotten Iraq already?...or Gaza?..or Chile? or Spain?....the list is long and bloody.

However, the violence we have to guard against is the removal of our liberties, as Lox says, the loss of the right to protest, the right of free speech, the right to demonstrate.
Dont think for one moment that the people who run this system would be like "Gentleman George"; my grandfather told me of the last great social unrest in Britain, which culminated in the 1926 General Strike and how our political leaders put the troops and tanks into Red Clydeside, ready to blow the citizens to pieces for daring to demand the end of a "discredited system in the hands of greedy, dishonest and incompetent individuals"

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:46 PM

>>the loss of the right to protest, the right of free speech, the right to demonstrate.
<<
And let me spe;; it out to some of you people who don't seem to get it.

That does not mean vandalism or violence in any circumstances unless you are being attacked yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:49 PM

"well he's taken off the Tax payer for to keep his bank a float, not unless you don't pay tax?"

Two points of fact here Tom. The first is that "he" Fred Goodwin took nothing, the Government bought shares in the bank (Not a bad move because in the long term it will make them money - they will get it all back). The second one is that RBS was not Fred Goodwin's bank, he didn't own it, he only worked there - not "his" bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 08:01 PM

AIG has hired the consulting firm that fixes images.
Its the same one that big tobacco and oil use.
Its even the same one that Hillary hired.
The first step was to change the AIG name...

the softer side of AIG mudcat press 2009

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 12:05 AM

In defense, ake, as said, I would. I am not a pure pacifist (or "pure" anything come to think of it, my purity days are long gone).

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 06:12 AM

""George, let me for the umpteenth time say, yet again, to you, for whom I have the greatest respect, and to Ian Mather, for whom I have none, that I do not and will not condone violence. That people choose to lump together vandalism against property with violence against people is their problem. I do not. The two are totally and utterly different.

There, is that simple enough?""

YES LEVELLER!! Very clear indeed, and it would be a shining example of the art of debate, IF it weren't utter and complete egregious nonsense.

Your contention that a group of right thinking, sober, intelligent citizens are going out to commit acts of aggression toward a house and a car, is quite simply ludicrous.

Picture it:- "Hey Cecil, let's beat up that automobile, and really teach it a lesson".    "Oh, right-ho Charles, and while we're at it why don't we give the house a damn good hiding too"?

Those men committed that damage for one reason, and one reason only: TO PUT THE FEAR OF CHRIST INTO GOODWIN AND HIS FAMILY!

THAT, my friend, IS violence against persons, which you claim not to support, and as such it is indefensible.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 06:56 AM

I'm not going to argue with you because you don't listen so goodbye

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: meself
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 12:54 PM

Just in case anyone is so naive as to buy into this "violence-against-property-is-acceptable-but-violence-against-people-is-not-unless-someone-is-attacked-then-of-course-they-have-the-right-to-defend-themselves" nonsense, which I highly doubt, welcome to the real world. Here's how things happen:

Someone damages property. Property owner or hireling arrives to protect property. Someone is shoved. In response, someone is hit. In response to that, someone is clubbed. A rock no doubt aimed at a window hits somebody in the head. In response, a shot is fired in the air. More rocks, clubs, hatpins, tear gas, more shots in the air, shots on the ground, shots into bodies. When the dust clears, the dead and wounded taken away, there are great cries of, "Look what they've done to us! Peaceful means don't work against such brutes!" And soon, "They've got us outgunned, so we are fully justified in planting bombs, kidnapping their children", etc., etc.

If that's what you want, just say so.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Lox
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 01:02 PM

An eye for an eye ... making the whole world blind.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: heric
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 01:46 PM

"The Caterpillar bossnappings were the third in France over the past month and all have been sparked by disputes over severance package terms. Facing a sharp drop in orders, the U.S. heavy equipment maker is planning to cut up to 20,000 jobs worldwide. But workers say, with a $3.5 billion posted profit last year, Caterpillar can afford more than the $13,000 minimum severance, the newspaper said."

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 11:09 PM

I would think that watching the G20 rioting would be enough to bring any Mudcatter to his/her senses.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:24 AM

I thought it was interesting that RBS bank workers photocopied banknotes (an illegal activity - any comment from those who believe in the punishment of all wrong-doers?) and threw them down on the protesters.

"Yet the antagonism was clear as City staff waved £10 notes from their office windows and bellowed insults at the marchers below"

"Elsewhere, protests were largely peaceful as several thousand people descended on the country's financial heart to challenge world leaders. They were met by derision from City workers, who waved £10 notes from their offices at marchers on the streets below."

Despite this obviuos behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peacehe police, of course, acted superbly and with gtreat presence:

"But the police seemed more worried about the man (or woman) dressed as a rabbit and grabbed him into their own lines." LOL! I love that - save the eccentric, a true British action.

The vast majority of the protest passed off with good humour - and without agression, as one banker who got caught up with the protestors stated on the BBC Today programme this morning.

In fact:

"There was a carnival atmosphere as marchers crossed London Bridge with numerous camera crews, photographers and reporters in tow."

The vandalism against the RBS building was totally misplaced - no point in taking it out on the institution; it's the people who ran the organisation who should be blamed. Which brings me back to my original post:

Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:48 AM

Meself, I like your story. Pity you didn't finish it though. Allow me...

"...Al Quaeda launches a terrorist campaign on the US. US blames Iran for backing this and invades. Iran launches a nuclear attack on the US with weapons it's developed in secret. US responds with retaliatory missiles and blames Pakistan for aiding Iran. Pakistan takes this opportunity to make a nuclear attack on India. India retaliates. The world ends. And all because someone's window got broken. Funny old world!"

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: goatfell
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 04:32 AM

I was watching the news on the EBC and I thought how silly those thugs were. I believe in peaceful protest unlike those thugs only belive in thuggery, I just hope that the thugs will get caught.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 04:53 AM

Didn't see much from my office as the marchers went a couple of hundred yards away. The security presence (non-police) was far less than on the Stop the City protests of a few years ago. There were a few protestors in fancy dress wheeling a stuffed zebra around the Gherkin sticking posters to the windows which were removed by a security card following a few feet behind. Apparently another group tried to storm the Gherkin but fell apart when they found they were at the back where there was just a cafe and bar.

I thought the fake armoured car was a great ruse.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 05:07 AM

"Put the fear of Christ into Goodwin"? Not a bad idea really if one believed in Christ. Did he not use violence to drive the moneychangers from the Temple, saying "This is my father's house, but you have made it into a den of thieves"?

Well this is my father's and his father's etc land (not to forget mothers too) and Goodwin and his ilk have made it onto a den of thieves. They have captured and corruped those who would defend us and in stead of Michael Foot (a man of principle if ever there was one) they gave us Bliar, out of whose shadow (and, worse, Thatcher's long shadow of worship of greed) Brown can only slowly escape.

Until enough people are prepared to do as the followers of Ghandi did and until enough people can see clearly who oppresses them by use of the ballot box, the only path to change is violence.

Did Ireland teach you nothing?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 05:32 AM

But once you've replaced capitalism (with what?) through violence what's the stop it being reinstated through violence? Is this the continuing revolution espoused by Communism?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 06:43 AM

Seems like a good point to repeat my earlier post:-

"The question that each and every one of us has to ask ourselves is – are you prepared to put your livelihood, your home and the future of your children in the custody of a discredited system and in the hands of greedy, dishonest and incompetent individuals who have screened themselves from the consequences of their own actions"

And I bet the people of the former USSR are asking themselves the same question

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 06:51 AM

But the new corruption in Russia et al is capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 07:43 AM

Replacement of a left-leaning democracy by right wing military capitalism? We know that happens by violence, don't we boys and girls.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 07:43 AM

And it's no more or less corrupt than its predecessor.
Greed and envy abound wherever and whatever the political system. It's human nature.
If this were a communist country, people like Fred Goodwin would still be cock of the walk, and moaners like those we see on this thread would still be moaning.

Oh look - the grass over there is so much greeener than ours......

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 07:58 AM

""If this were a communist country, people like Fred Goodwin would still be cock of the walk, and moaners like those we see on this thread would still be moaning.""


NO, MATE!    If this were a communist country, people like Fred Goodwin would still be cock of the walk, and moaners like those we see on this thread would be up against a wall, or disappeared.

And THAT'S the major difference. How many people got shot dead between 1961 and 1989, trying to cross the border WEST to EAST?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Musket
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 08:14 AM

So, the G20 is in session as I write and there may or may not be an agreement.

Whatever, I am at least glad that hitherto, they are getting on with trying to sort out the problem.

Me? the leveller may be interested to know that I got to my office Ok, tried not to pat the dogs that the security firm had at the entrance, and got on with my day.

Then, went to a pub near Kings Cross with colleagues, as we had things to discuss, (not the G20 funnily enough,) got a train and was home in time for the footy.

What the leveller may not be interested in, was that I didn't manage to kick any beggars, failed to photocopy bank notes to drop at protesters and even when I had the chance in the pub, didn't manage to do a Harry Enfield impression, so didn't go up to people telling them that I notice I am richer than you etc.

Sorry about that.

Oh, and by the way, peaceful protest is a way of reminding decision makers that they are being watched and their actions scrutinised. My point for the rest of the world, (other than our levelling friend, who doesn't count,) is that I like many other people am concerned that anarchists and trouble makers get on the bandwagon of peaceful protest and give it a bad name. I empathise with peaceful protest, even where I don't see the point.

I am actually rather thrilled that somebody has absolutely no respect for me. I should spout my views more often, although perhaps under an alias in future, as our levelling friend is at best passive about direct action, and at worst, well, ha ha ha is what he said about a bank employee having his home attacked.... (Forgot how much fun it is, winding people up!)

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 08:50 AM

All is quiet here in my part of the City this lunchtime. I saw one lone demonstrator with a placard, presumably wondering where his mates had gone. No signs of any property damage or debris from the Climate Camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 08:55 AM

"NO, MATE!    If this were a communist country, people like Fred Goodwin would still be cock of the walk, and moaners like those we see on this thread would be up against a wall, or disappeared.

And THAT'S the major difference. How many people got shot dead between 1961 and 1989, trying to cross the border WEST to EAST?"

Correct, Don. Thanks for that.

Strange how the loony-lefties never seem to remember things like Tiananmen Square, or the Gulags, when they're spouting their bollocks about what shit systems the UK and the USA operate, and how marvellous it will be when the proles give the rulers a good kick in the balls and take over.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Stu
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 09:34 AM

Strange how right-wing apologists never seem to remember things ike Tiananmen Square, or the Gulags, when they're dealing with oppressive regimes that can make them a quick buck at the expense of the poor sods that do the work for next to nothing.

These regimes have sod all to do with communism (bloody obvious) and everything to do with supplying fat lazy westerners who have never known life without free speech but balk at life sans Coca Cola or burgers to feed their fat faces with.

There's no chance of those proles giving their leaders a good kick in the balls and taking over; they're too afraid of losing their Nike trainers, cheap computers etc Better let some Chinese worker in a Laogai who they'll never have to face do the donkey work - they're not going to complain after all, unless they want a bullet in the back of the head.

The pro-democracy movement in China is made up of people with more courage and integrity than most westerners can ever dream of having, and the fact right-wingers love to business with the people who seek to oppress their free speech renders them complicit.

Loony lefties we may be, but remembering Tiananmen Square, The kidnapping and disappearance of the true Panchen Lama, The 50th Anniversary of the Tibetan Uprising and human rights in China are causes we believe in and actually do something about, rather than kow-tow to money-men and political pirates.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 09:45 AM

Sorry, Ian, I can't understand what point you're trying to make; you've descended into complete gibberish. Take more water with it, mate.

Anyway, it's turning out to be a great day. The G20 are sorting out the world financial crisis (LOL), it's a beautiful sunny afternoon and I've just landed enough work to keep me busy for at least the next two months (phew, the kids can eat again :)).

Oh, and while we're on the subject of destruction of property, I'm getting a new Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppy today – now that's one method that even the protestors haven't thought of.

Off to buy a bottle of fair trade organic wine to celebrate.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 10:04 AM

Just don't leave it alone with the kids, theleveller, or it might be biting more than you can chew - too many sad stories around.

Glad you landed the extra work, I am still looking for a job where they'll pay me to sit at home and write songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 10:34 AM

No such thing as a bad dog George - only bad owners!

I was brought up with Staffies, my mum and dad had them for 30 years, never had any sort of problem, ever. They are the perfect family dog, provided they're brought up and trained properly. My sister (who was just a little girl when they got the first one) used to dress him up in cardigans, hats, skirts and he loved it being the centre of attention. Great playmates for one another.

They're like people - treat them right and they'll treat you right. Treat them wrong and they'll turn on you. Most of the bad stories you read are the result of idiots who buy them because of the macho image they have, and they try to make them 'tough'. Do that to any dog, and it'll end up biting your balls (or worse). It's unfair to single out the Staffie, no dog, of any breed, should ever be left alone with small children. Even Yorkies bite, very hard.

But back to the subject of the thread, I understand your points Jack, but how will terrorising a banker and his family, or beating policemen up and breaking windows in London make things better for people who really are oppressed (not just jealous, moaning bastards like some on here)?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Stu
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 10:59 AM

I've never been fond of Staffs, being a collie man myself but we've just come back from holiday and the owners of the cottage we were staying at had an 8-month old Staff who was utterly bonkers but bags of fun. Our 14-year old working sheepdog didn't want the mither and gave him short shrift although he certainly didn't take the hint. He was full of youth! Always off in their (huge) garden on some sort of doggy mission.

"But back to the subject of the thread, I understand your points Jack, but how will terrorising a banker and his family, or beating policemen up and breaking windows in London make things better for people who really are oppressed (not just jealous, moaning bastards like some on here)?"

It won't, and I'm a typical soft lefty who abhors violence of any kind, and I can't see the point in singling out one greed bastard from a whole raft of them. I can understand their frustration to a degree as they feel they have no voice (my own MP states we don't vote for him to represent our views in Parliament, but because we agree with his views; so much for democratic representation . . .).

Goodwin will get away with this because the people in charge are like him, and that's a tough pill for people with little hope of work or who are losing their homes or income to swallow. But having been here in the 80's I can't see how things are going to change unless we change the system, as when the going gets tough the civil unrest starts.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 11:42 AM

Well, well, well......a man who has even just a brief attachment to a Staffie can't be all bad! :-)

We are very close to agreeing, Jack. Like you, I agree with much of 'the end', I just can't agree with 'the means' that these people employ.

And if they truly are so sincere in their beliefs, let them go and demonstrate, break windows, attack policemen doing their jobs in countries which have real corruption rife in them - I wonder how long they'd last in China, Iran, Russia et al?

We have a very great deal to be grateful for in the UK, not the least being the freedom to protest and to free speech. No-one should take them for granted, and no-one should abuse them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 01:03 PM

Still making the usual "socialist" mistake of confusing "capitalism" for a political ideology are we Richard Bridge?? FYI it's not never, ever has been.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Stu
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 01:29 PM

"Still making the usual "socialist" mistake of confusing "capitalism" for a political ideology are we Richard Bridge?? FYI it's not never, ever has been."

Really?

I would suggest there are plenty of people active in Western politics whose only ideology is that of individualism, free-market economics and the minimisation of state intervention. In the UK and US it's the default position. The fact it's failed utterly (being totally unable to regulate itself and stem it's worst excesses) and state intervention is now universally accepted might indicate we need to rethink the capitalist ideal.

It's debatable whether capitalism is more than an economic system (though I would suggest it has certainly become so and many of it's early adherents saw it as such - up to an including Thatcher), but the word has become interchangeable with 'democracy' even though it's anything but.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Lox
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:19 PM

Teribus.

Capitalism is an economic theory.

A Capitalist however, whilst being:

1. a person who has capital, esp. extensive capital, invested in business enterprises.
2. An investor of capital in business, especially one having a major financial interest in an important enterprise.
3. a person who invests capital in a business (especially a large business).

(the same definition from different sources)

or simply a person of great wealth,

can also be,

1. a conservative advocate of capitalism (noun)
2. favoring or practicing capitalism [syn: capitalistic] [ant: socialist] (adjective)

... note the antonym ...

3. A supporter of capitalism.
4. an advocate of capitalism.

A supporter of capitalism will as a matter of course need to justify it in the context of politics and the political issues that surround it.

Any argument advanced in that context can be said to be a political argument.

A self proclaimed capitalist can therefore be said to be representative of a political ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 05:09 PM

Thank you Lox.

It comes back to the same point in the end. If the few rich profit at the expense of the many poor (as they do), and control the ballot box by control of the media (as they demonstrably did in Italy and more subtly do elsehere), how will the poor ever free themselves from exploitation?

Who will be our tricoteuses?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 06:30 PM

Richard you could make everybody in the country millionaires and within eighteen months you would have the few rich and many poor.

By the bye Lox right at the start of that rather convoluted little post of yours you mention "a person who has capital" A question for you. How did that person get his capital? You say the easy way - he inherited it or you could take the example of Andrew Carnegie, who if he had left Scotland penniless as he and his family were and had gone east instead of west - he'd have starved to death or been executed.

SF what financial/economic theory or system do you think is going to come galloping to the rescue? - Yep that's right you've got it in one - capitalism will be what generates the growth required - don't you just love it??

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Lox
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 08:26 PM

I don't say any way and I haven't expressed a view for or against, but you haven't said anything that opposes the view I did express which is that "capitalist" can refer to a political perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Stu
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 03:34 AM

". . . don't you just love it??"

Er, you know the answer to that one Mr. T.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:56 AM

1.      "Capitalism is an economic theory."

That is essentially correct.

2.      "A Capitalist however, whilst being:

1. a person who has capital, esp. extensive capital, invested in business enterprises.
2. An investor of capital in business, especially one having a major financial interest in an important enterprise.
3. a person who invests capital in a business (especially a large business).

(the same definition from different sources)

or simply a person of great wealth,"

What about a Capitalist being a person who believes in capitalism as an economic theory. You seem to have fastened to the wealth end of the thing - to gain that wealth, the person was a capitalist and believed in the economic theory of capitalism and the opportunities it afforded them long before they became wealthy.

3.      "can also be,

1. a conservative advocate of capitalism (noun)
2. favoring or practicing capitalism [syn: capitalistic] [ant: socialist] (adjective)

... note the antonym ...

3. A supporter of capitalism.
4. an advocate of capitalism."
      
Note that that is conservative with a small "c", usually reserved for describing someone who tends not to like or trust change, especially sudden change. Now that is rather strange because if anything history has shown us that capitalism actually relies on and thrives on change. But I think the inference you wished to make and implant was the conservative with the capital "C". Politically, in the course of history there have been many extremely "Liberal" and "Radical" people who were quite successful capitalists, especially during the agricultural and industrial "revolutions" in Great Britain. Also looking back through the course of social and domestic history with 20 x 20 hindsight the "Luddites" were wrong, had their path been followed hundreds of thousands would have starved or been forced to flee the land and homes of their birth due to lack of food, lack of work and lack of opportunity.

Yes I did note the antonym and, strictly speaking, it is incorrect. That is not surprising considering you are using one of many definitions of the word capitalism from a dictionary. Dictionaries do not solely restrict themselves to what a particular word actually means, they also detail meanings of the word attributed to common or popular usage. Now how a word is used is different from what that word actually means and was originally coined to represent. Common usage may change over the passage of time, the original meaning of the word does not - best example I can think of to illustrate this would be the word "gay".

4.      "A supporter of capitalism will, as a matter of course, need to justify it in the context of politics and the political issues that surround it."

Why would a supporter of capitalism need to justify the application of that economic theory in the context of politics?? I am a firm believer in the economic strengths of capitalism purely because it works and that is all the justification it needs - there's nothing political about that whatsoever. So this requirement is just something that you have made up and injected into the discussion to suit where you wish to go as the remainder of your post shows:

"Any argument advanced in that context can be said to be a political argument.

A self proclaimed capitalist can therefore be said to be representative of a political ideology."

Which, for you, completes the loop you started out with when you introduced the word conservative.

Some definitions for you:

Communism - noun - The belief in a society without different classes in which the methods of production are owned and controlled by all its members and everyone works as much as they can and receives what they need.

Absolutely impossible to achieve, relies heavily on central control and as such cannot cope with sudden changes in response to extremely local circumstances. Immediately on setting this system up it corrupts itself as it has been seen to do down through the march of history. Very true analogy is that if two sailors abandon ship and find themselves in a rowing boat - One of them has to be the "Captain" or both will die - so much for equality. Particularly liked the bit of nonsense that "everybody works as much as they can and receives what they need" who decides?? The individual certainly cannot, otherwise nobody would work above the absolute bare minimum and remember you get out in direct proportion to what you put in.

Socialism - noun - The set of beliefs which states that all people are equal and should share equally in the wealth of the country, or the political systems based on these beliefs.

Left to concerning itself with politics of administration and handling of problems arising from conditions within the society it governs it is highly commendable, but all too often it meddles with economics where it shouldn't to make things equal which so blatantly are not and in so doing promotes a process of dumbing down, a reduction to the lowest common denominator, acting to destroy drive and innovation resulting in mediocrity.

Capitalism - noun - an economic system in which resources and means of production are privately owned and prices, production, and the distribution of goods are determined mainly by competition in a free market.

Provides the financial strength and flexibility to weather any storm and support any "political" system you may care for, but it does not alter the fact one jot that the economic system is completely separate from the political beliefs of the capitalist.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 07:21 AM

I wasn't paying any attention to the word "conservative" at all actually.

I was focussing on the words "supporter" and to a lesser degree "advocate".

Nothing exists in isolation teribus, and commercial practice and economic reality affect the political landscape.

a capitalist (as in the type which is a supporter of capitalism) will of course be of of the view that capitalism is essential in a healthy economy.

They might (as you seem to be doing) disagree that capitalism has political implications.

But that is based as much on their political point of view as it is on their belief in the merits of capitalism in isolation.

Their political understanding and viewpoint is such that it Exempts capitalism from politics, in much the same way as yours appears to have done.

I am afraid that there really is such a thing as The Politics of Capitalism.

It includes the political viewpoint which says that capitalism should be subject to restrictions and also that which says that it should be free of interference.

The latter of these viewpoints would be the political ideology of a supporter of capitalism.

Or in other words, the political ideology of a capitalist.


So while what you say is correct, that capitalism works better without interference, that is only useful where capitalism exists in isolation from the rest of existence.

But where capitalism exists within the context of a political society, the politics of capitalism are concerned with another issue.

Is unfettered capitalism entirely beneficial to society (upon which it depends for consumers and income) or would it be in societies interests to regulate capitalism so that any harm that it causes can be minimized.

And what responsibility do capitalists (the very wealthy and investors) have to the consumers upon whom they rely so heavily.

And that is as simplistic a description of the politics of capitalism as I can offer.

A capitalist would of course argue that regulation is a bad thing and that view would be representative of their political ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 07:04 PM

Well - it looks like the demos did get violent after all with tragic consequences.

Nothing worse than thugs undermining democracy.

How upsetting!

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 09:50 PM

The age old questions all economists try to answer is how to satisfy unlimited wants with limited means. Apart from the fact that if you lay all the economists in the world end to end they still would not reach a conclusion they did come up with acceptable sub-divisions of those limited resources.

1. Labour
2. Capital
3. Raw materials

As the amount of raw materials is finite and fixed it is the one that was discounted in the equation. Interestingly many studies, including some novels, have been written about what would happen if this aspect became infinite but they are all, of course, theoretical. What the economists do agree on is that by tweaking the other two a difference can be made.

Anyone with a modicum of sense can see that none of the resources can work without the other but here is where the great differences start. One group says that labour is the most important aspect while another states that capital or funding must be given precidence. It was always my understanding, probably wrong, that the former were known as the labour faction while the others were, traditionaly, capitalists.

Therefore the term capitalist is quite acceptable as a supporter of those who believe that the most important people are those who fund the ventures. Those who believe that the workers should receive more, because they produce the product, should be aligned with the party who were originaly described as labour. Fortunately, or otherwise in some peoples eyes, both main parties now see that one cannot exist without the other and both need to be looked after if any venture is to suceed. At least I hope they do.

And what do I think? That spacemen will come and provide us with unlimited resource of course. Do you not?

Cheers

DeG