Folk Against Fascism

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:24 PM

Bubblyrat, I think as JC/Eddie may have stated, that the egg throwers are not likely to be amongst this exceedingly new gathering of folk enthusiasts - who are joining in order to express their collective objection (as they are right to do?) to the appropriation of folk music to a very specific and ugly right-wing political agenda.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:25 PM

Damn! What I miss because I can't access Mudcat at work.

Well, I am not going to rise to the dissenters. Not worth my time.

What I am going to say is YAYRAH Joanie!

I will add both Facebook and Myspace as friends or join the group or whatever it is I do, forthwith.

Hmmm? Is there a Folk Against Facism on Twitter?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:30 PM

Personnally I do not think the BNP have a right to breath let alone speak! There should be no platform for racism ever!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:33 PM

Mudcat management seems to disagree with you, Mrs Duck.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:41 PM

"
Personnally I do not think the BNP have a right to breath let alone speak! There should be no platform for racism ever!"

Let them speak, with every lie they tell, they dig their grave deeper.

By th way (and I blame JoanieC for this, *LOL*) I'm now a member of facebook and am a member of the Folk Against Fascism group, seek out the photograph of the cover of Battle of the Field (in seemed appropriate.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Kampervan
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM

Sorry Mrs Duck, but I believe that you're wrong.

I loath the BNP and their view of the world, but the minute that you remove their right to speak then you become as bad as them.

The important to thing to do is to speak against them and make sure that everyone knows the evil that lies behind their propaganda.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:55 PM

Keeping people from posting is like keeping people from shouting out their opinions on a crowded city street corner.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:58 PM

"Then let's DO that on their fucking site. NOT on MUdcat."

It's called freedom of speech...deny that and as has been pointed out, you become as bad as the enemy

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:00 PM

As with when we vote for parliament, it's all about numbers. If there's one post here supporting or appearing to support the BNP, let there be hundreds, thousands, saying the opposite.

I say the opposite.

Let them have their say, but let it be a whisper against a roar for reason, decency, tolerance, goodwill, equality and welcome.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:01 PM

Then tell management to allow the BNP as many threads as they want. NOT just one.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM

Or are people going to give 'freedom of speech' lip service?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:29 PM

I don't condone the throwing of eggs.


I think it undermines the protest and allows the BNP to claim the moral high ground.

Note that I did not say it gives them the moral high ground, just that it allows them to claim it.


I completely condone Folk against Fascism as it constitutes a forum in which the issue of Fascist politics can be constructively and informatively be addressed.


Bubblyrat, well done for voting the way you did. My personal view is that UKIP are atrocious, but they are at least a party of issues, even if only on a shallow level.

Your vote for the Greens well and truly puts me in my place.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM

Sorry, is that addressed at me?

By all means, as many as they want. This is Mudcat's greatest strength (and greatest weakness).

Our job is not to silence them (tempting though that is), it is to be better informed and more convincing than they are - and also to address the the things that cause people to support the BNP in the first place.

Because it is surely all of our faults that they exist, and now have that voice.

Tom Bliss

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:35 PM

Sorry Lox - that was to Peace

Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:34 PM

Folk Against Fascism is a great idea, and hopefully will develop into a great movement.

A long time ago I was in the Anti-Nazi League. I don't think denying the BNP any platform is an effective tactic, but I DO think the opportunity should be taken to hold counter-demonstrations on every possible occasion.

I do have a dilemma because I can't accept that an organisation which excludes non-whites from membership should even have the right to exist in a democratic society. But.. I don't see how it can sensibly be banned.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:41 PM

If I was a middle bar singer at Sidmouth and Georgina Dale[MBSGeorge the unsuccessful BNP Chippenham candidate ] turned up I would walk out .

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:41 PM

Not specifically, Tom. I didn't intend any offense to you. If you took any, sorry.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM

i am in two minds here as are a lot of you i am sure.   as much as i would love to ban any bnp supporter from ever talking their crap on any platform, i also don't want to be just like them in that not everyone has a right to free speech. i would rather have them say what they want on places like this and have them shown for the ignorant, racist,etc. that they are. than them meeting in secret and jumping out of bushes with no way of knowing what they are up to and where they will go next.

sorry if that made no sense but i am sure you can work out where i was trying to go with it.

the protsters have just as much right to be heard as the people they were protesting about it is about convincing the public of which side has the better arguement, as for the eggs... i dissagree with any violence and any form of assult, but i must admit if i had seen it i probably would have found it funny.

i think we need to stay together and not to argue some small point that will ultimately lead to falling out amongst ourselves

the people united,
will never be defeated.

if we all do our bit then victory will be ours.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 06:54 PM

I just applied to the Folk Against Fascism Myspace site. However, I ain't folk. Unless folk is the term used for people. I am that.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 07:10 PM

Some of the respondents above don't seem to have grasped the point about freedom of speech and fascists. They don't like freedom of speech, but are prepared to abuse it if people are foolish enough to give them a platform.
It is not about a civilised debate with reason and evidence prevailing. In an audience of 100, if 98 smug liberals walk away congratulating themselves that they have 'won ' the argument', but two despersate, angry and dispossesed youths are attracted to the fascist methods, and join, the fascists have a huge result. They would laugh at self satisfied dismissals, and continue to prey on the vulnerable, which the liberals have provided them with.
If this 'Debate' is legitimised by a public institution like a University or church, the result is harrassment of local minority groups, who see those who hate them being given credibility.
NO platform for Racists and fascists.....believe me, after being involved in these issues for over 35 years, every inch given is a probable mile taken.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Kampervan
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 07:49 PM

Sorry, T. t. C., when you start denying a platform to someone you disagree with, then the cure becomes worse than the disease.

Loathsome though the BNP may be, we have to use open democratic ways to defeat them; otherwise they go underground and become even more difficult to counter.

They are riding on the wake of the mess that the main parties have created. It's up to everyone of all political persuasions to help put right the sleaze and corruption and then make mainstream politics more attractive. That way voters won't feel the need to register a protest vote with bigots like the BNP.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 08:35 PM

Like prostitution and drug dealing it goes underground.

On the surface it can be managed.

There is no way of rebutting arguments that are made behind closed doors.

Those two youths could be persuaded at any time.

They are less likely to be persuaded if there are other voices there pointing out the errors and misinformation of the BNP argument.

The key with all of the above is openness and honest well documented non judgemental information.

An educated person is a well armed and well prepared person.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:47 AM

Over 800 members already!
When I first looked at the site yesterday, it must have been brand new as it had about 30 members. Looking forward to seeing the website when up and running. Will the organiser/s be seeking charity status? I don't know how constructive or otherwise such a move might be, but it would seem a possible logical option for fund raising activities directed at awareness raising.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:59 AM

"Personnally I do not think the BNP have a right to breath let alone speak! There should be no platform for racism ever! "

I'll second that! We have laws against inciting racial hatred, which is what BNP members do ever time they speak in public. The egg-throwers were merely drawing attention to the fact that these people need to be silenced or their invidious views could influence people, especially those who are exercising their voting rights for the first time, into thinking that this is legitimate politics.

Folk music has a long and honourable tradition of opposing extremism of this sort and I welcome the opportunity to be part of movement like Folk Against Fascism.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,FTF ?
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:01 AM

Crow Sister -

Please elaborate upon your statement - SOURCE - Three Sources???

As others have commented German folk music has never fully recovered from the stain of being forced into prostitution to very dark political ends.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:09 AM

I always slightly worry when the spokespeople for these sorts of protests try to claim they are acting with the moral authority of their community - who elected them? I think it would be a far more honest and powerful statement to say:

"The first egg was for holocaust denial. The second was for inciting racial hatred. The third was for anti-semitism. The forth was for being a liar..." and so on.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:22 AM

I gather that someone variously calling himself "Richard Bridge" or "Hoff Bridge" is posting messages of support for the BNP at digg and sending abusive messages to members of the "folk against fascism" facebook group.

"Hoff" is short for "Hoffmeister".

There are only a very few places where I have used or been referred to by both names - and the 'cat is one of them.

But "Hoff Bridge" isn't me.

You may want to keep a wary eye on Daily Mail Reader - I suspect that he or his cronies are the guilty parties.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:36 AM

Only a suggestion.

Could this thread be mainly used for promoting the facebook group, promoting folk against facism gigs and events, discussions on the role of folk song and music in standing up to oppression both now and historically, and providing an opportunity for performers and audiences to identify themselves under the folk against fascism banner.

That would then keep the political debate in the two BS threads, and hopefully keep the trolls and BNP propagandists out of this one.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:49 AM

I was reluctant to join facebook,but since this is such an important issue,I have joined Folk against Fascism.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:07 AM

I don't want to see people like Joan and George repatriated

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Scotsman Over The Border
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:23 AM

Many thanks to Matthew Edwards for those links on the Roma and Travellers.

Let the BNP speak, their so-called policies last about two seconds when held up to any kind of scrutiny.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:03 AM

I'm not joining Facebook even for this, but on MySpace I'm glad to see that my friend request to FAF and theirs to me crossed in cyberspace!

And SPB-Cooperator: fully agreed - let's keep the political debate out of this thread and restrict discussions (as far as possible) to promoting this cause.

I'll put something on our web site too - especially if Folk against Fascism starts a real web site of its own and I can link to it. If someone hasn't started one yet, I'm offering free hosting space for it.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:07 AM

I'm not joining Facebook even for this, but on MySpace I'm glad to see that my friend request to FAF and theirs to me crossed in cyberspace!

And SPB-Cooperator: fully agreed - let's keep the political debate out of this thread and restrict discussions (as far as possible) to promoting this cause.

I'll put something on our web site too - especially if Folk against Fascism starts a real web site of its own and I can link to it. If someone hasn't started one yet, I'm offering free hosting space for it.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:27 AM

'Sorry, T. t. C., when you start denying a platform to someone you disagree with, then the cure becomes worse than the disease'

Kampervan, what exactly are you sorry about? Sounds either smug or patronising to me.

   We disagree, and it is not a trivial disagreement. I believe that it stances like yours that allowed fascism a foothold in the past, and could possibly do so again.

   Your quite accurate description of how civilised debate works in a kiberal democracy crucially relies on BOTH sides signing up to the rules. fascist groupd don't, they loathe and despise notions such as democracy and fre speeech. Whenever they have abused the democratic process to gaion a foothold, thet use the same process to suspend democracy and make fredom of speech a treasonable offence.
    The Psychology and tactics of fasxist movements is well documented, this is not a matter of opinion.
   Holding meetings, rallies, broadcasts etc. are used, when allowed, not to debate, but to syphon off the disaffected. No.... the two youths mentioned above could not have been recruited at any time, it is the particular circumstances in a highly charged political meeting that are used to prey on their emotions, not their intellect. having others present to refute the fascisit is negatively effective.... the targeted disaffected youths already feel betrayed and outcast by threxse pillars of the liberal society.
   Fortunately, most of our politiciana are not so naive. No-one, form any political party, was willing to share a platform with the Nationakl Front in the European referendum debate of the 70's, and the NF were denied a platform for their hatred. Nowadays, all parties refuse to appear on programmes like question time if the BNP are invited. Again, a platform that would be used to intimidate and recruit the dispossessed is denied.
   Mosley and his Blackshirts were stopped, not by debate, but because working class activists in solidarity with the jewish community built barricades an rrefused the Fascists their 'legal, democratic right' to 'peacefully' demonstrate and propagandise. The 'battle of Cable Street' is a landmark in opposing fascism
   NO platform for racisits and fascists, ever.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM

"NO platform for racisits and fascists, ever"
You simply can't say that in a post that criticises another group for despising free speech!
The uncomfortable corollary of free speech is that it allows others to say things you disagree with. Of couse, as Hubert Humphrey famously said, "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously" and Voltaire "I don't agree with what you say, but will fight to the death for your right to say it". I don't actually feel comfortable about the "incitement to racial hatred" act because it's the thin end of the wedge of censorship of free speech.

Anyway, nobody can stop Folk against Fascism from promoting its own message, so that's what we should be doing, loudly and frequently.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:37 AM

I think this is a brilliant initiative (and so does Pip Radish, who will be back shortly).

We (liberal anti-fascists) tend to tie ourselves in knots about freedom of speech. I think it's worth distinguishing between what the law guarantees and what people want. Where I live, there was massive opposition to the opening of a new Tesco's last year - so much so that they were initially refused planning permission. They went to appeal and won, and they duly built the store and opened it - as they had every right to do. But if protesters had stopped the building going ahead, I think most people around here would have thought they were in the right.

The BNP have every right to organise as a legal political party, and Griffin is an elected MEP and has every right to do that job: I would be 100% opposed to any attempt to ban the party or to have the fat fascist locked up. But if anti-fascists want to make it a bit harder for them to organise, or for Griffin to get his message across, then I'm not going to tell them they're in the wrong. It may be a tactical error - the counter-demo yesterday almost certainly was - but that's a separate issue.

Anyway, FaF is a great initiative. Pip isn't joining Facebook either, but he's with you in spirit.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:56 AM

I accept richard bridges point that freedom of speech does not include the right to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre.

However, I also think that a well targeted, concise and non pompous confrontation of the BNP can have the result of the anti BNP message spreading.

Those two hypothetical lads might go back to their estate after witnessing such an encounter and carry the fight on when they encounter it there in a way that they might not have done had they not had the chance to hear the BNP view properly tested and shown up.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

As for the eggs, guess whose ugly mug was on the front page of "The Metro" today ...

(the Metro is a free national paper found on buses and trains all over the country and as such is probably th most widely read paper in the UK).


And as it was because of the egg throwing that it got there, it meant that the papers had to focus on that aspect of the story.

It meant that Griffin got to be quoted giving his response.

Now there's a big f***ing platform if ever there was one ... well done egg throwers!!!

It meant that the newspapers, in all fairness, so as not to be seen condoning any type of assault, had to ask the egg throwers what the hell they were doing.

Do you think that any newspaper is going to condone that kind of approach?

They will report the story.

The story was that an elected politician was assaulted.

It meant that the arguments against the BNP were drowned in a scrum and that Nick Griffin got to stand up in front of the whole country and look ... ahem ... whiter than white.


No Platform for Fascists?


I'm afraid that slogans like that will not cut it as a strategy to beat the BNP.


You have to plan more than one move ahead. You have to be cleverer than them.


You have to prove it.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:18 AM

What are you afraid of? That they will lure some easily influenced person into their snare? That is pretty paternalistic, and shows a lack of respect for the intelligence of average folks. To me it seems that it is our job to expose their ugly agenda. FAF is a great start. Challenging their point of view everywhere they spout it is the hard work. Banning is a lazy response, and it doesn't work. Doing so gives them "high road, victim" status. I prefer them in the light of day where their bigotry is easily seen.

And remember that this sword has two edges. When you limit one persons ability to espouse ideas (even vile bigotted ones), how do we justify not limiting yours.

And finally, as a matter of policy, we don't limit what folks talk about, with very few exceptions, such as anything that is considered personal attack.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:36 AM

100% with you Mick, on all counts. It is this potential of turning them to "martyrs" that worries me most of all. No, I prefer the BNP to continue and act as a focus for their hateful policies - that way we know were the danger lies. And by all means, let them join us in debate. Not sloganeering, name-calling or misquoting but normal, common-or-garden debate.

We wouldn't change their minds or persuade them, of course. No one can. They have thought all these things through and made up their minds - if we think differently then we would be naive. But a public debate gets to be heard/read by the public. It is for their benefit that we should have it. Every chance we get.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:49 AM

Sorry, that last GUEST was cookieless me...

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: folkandroots
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:59 AM

The problem perhaps with such debates is what you could be debating isnt what they actually think nor stand for but a very much watered down (for public consumption) version of this, the holocaust denial, enforced sterilisation the more dangerous racist agenda will be kept underwraps. Personally I have no doubt that some of those who have joined have been fooled (and are probably fools) and arent quite aware of what it is they have joined.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:00 AM

"And as it was because of the egg throwing that it got there, it meant that the papers had to focus on that aspect of the story."

So you think the protesters might have over-egged it a bit?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

Deal me in. I endorse everything said in this thread, particularly what Crow Sister posted.

The problem, as I see it, in denying the BNP pond life a platform is that they might be perceived as martyrs -

"Just as we told you - those lefties deny us a platform because they are feared of our message".

(Just realised that I am repeating that which Big Mick, and George P, said above. Duh ! {it has been a long day] ).

May I say that I abominate the BNP and everything it stands for, just in case my comments above might be misinterpreted.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

'NO platform for racists and fascists' doesn't mean that they can't organise or say what they want.....and others are free to counteract them, shout them down or whatever,...thats a matter of tactical preferences.
It means not affording them a platform, i.e inviting them on yo your own or others'platforms, and campaigning to stop public institutions offering platforms to those who use them to intimidate and harrass part of the community.
There are many things that are legal, but are wrong. legislation always falls behind shifts in public opinion and tolearance.
Remeber Cable Street.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM

"So you think the protesters might have over-egged it a bit? "

eggsackly!
-Tommy Handley, ITMA

wonder who was egging them on, and then egging them off?

"I prefer them in the light of day where their bigotry is easily seen."

one more time.......

"The British National Party would probably make it into a parliament elected by proportional representation, too. It would shine a torch into the dirty little corner where the BNP defecate on our democracy, and that would be much more powerful than duffing them up in the street — which I'm also in favour of."

- Billy Bragg in an interview with The Guardian, 2004

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:18 AM

Folkandroots, how did you figure it out? Do you believe that most others are not as capable as you of figuring it out? I ask this not to be argumentative, but to make a point. As to your point about the real agenda vs. What is being put out for public debate, that is known as shifting the premise, as well as having a hidden agenda. Of course they will do that. It is the only way that people with vile agendas can appeal to the great middle. It is our job to expose that, and have enough respect for the intelligence of average folks to get it.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:24 AM

You might have seen this but as far as I understand it this is properly researched at Lancaster University:

    "On a party-by-party basis, the average (childhood) IQ scores for 2001 voters were:

       Green - 108.3

       Liberal Democrat - 108.2

       Conservative - 103.7

       Labour – 103

       Plaid Cymru - 102.5

       Scottish National - 102.2

       UK Independence - 101.1

       British National - 98.4

       Did not vote/None of the above - 99.7"

My point is you're not dealing with "average" folks..........

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:26 AM

Anyone who saw Nick Griffin being interviewed on Sky news will have seen one sad sick sorry bigoted son of a bitch being tied up in knots by one not overly penetrating interviewer. When the guy asked him about the ethnic qualification of BNP membership, Griffin had no answer. When he was asked why the BNP wouldn't allow the building of mosques in this country, he made a complete fool of himself. When he was asked about repatriation and the rights of British born 'ethnic' peoples he could not give a consistent answer.

That is the way to fight fascism. Show the illogicality of their so called policies. Show the socio/economic/ecological disaster which would result if this bunch of plonkers ever got into power. Show anyone who thinks otherwise what the logical outcome of a BNP government would mean in terms of their personal freedom. Demonstrate against them. March against them. Leaflet against them. Barrack their street meetings and picket their private gatherings. In short,exhaust all reasonable avenues of protest.

But throwing eggs is just plain stupid. It is counterproductive, and it is about what one would expect from the tattooed skinheads which the BNP seems designed to attract.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:30 AM

"I gather that someone variously calling himself "Richard Bridge" or "Hoff Bridge" is posting messages of support for the BNP at digg and sending abusive messages to members of the "folk against fascism" facebook group.

"Hoff" is short for "Hoffmeister".

There are only a very few places where I have used or been referred to by both names - and the 'cat is one of them.

But "Hoff Bridge" isn't me.

You may want to keep a wary eye on Daily Mail Reader - I suspect that he or his cronies are the guilty parties."

How dreadfully unpleasant.