Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


BBC Radio 4 features abc

Related threads:
Tech: Abc Converter (23)
ABC to standard notation (87)
Tech: ABC converter help (46)
Tech: convert ABC to MusicXML? (42)
abc replacement: lilypond (10)
ABC versus Standard Notation (115)
ABC player and tune plotter (4)
Mudcat ABC Tune Guide (115)
Help: JC's ABC Tunefinder How to use (16)
concertina.net: ABC to midi/sheet music converter (17)
Chris Walshaw's ABC website relaunched (14)
ABCexplorer (1)
abc notation: new walshaw home page url (9)
A quick ABC question (12)
Tech: ABC to sheetmusic/midi (35)
What is ABC format? (49)
Reading ABC (11)
Tech: ABC notation (22)
Practicing abc notation (34)
Tech: ABCWin2.1 in windows xp (15)
Tune Req: ABC Files and how to read them? (18)
Many, many ABC tunes (6)
Tech Help--ABC to MIDI program (4)
Tech: my computer wont load abc player (8)
Java .abc program (4)
Help with ABC required (49)
Tune Req: Old Time tunes in abc format? (4)
Help: converting ABC to dots (6)
Allegro (MUS) &abc (6)
Hearing ABCs (4)
Noteworthy from/to ABC conversion (11)
Just Intonation ABC playre (7)
Help: problem downloading abc & midi files (21)
ABC: DS al Fine - DC? (10)
Help: ABC2WIN won't play (7)
ASTURIAN abc tunes! (2)
MP3, Midi, ABC and new songs to post (9)
ABC Stuff - ABCMUS Tempo is Wrong (2)
Help re ABC Music (7)
ABC on the Mudcat MIDI Site (14)
ABC to Gif or Midi or PS: (3)
Help requested for ABC notation (11)
Help: ABCs on The Mudcat Midi Page (5)
ABC software (16)
Convert ABC files to GIF images HELP! (11)
An ABC music translation program..might help (4)
Using ABC to transpose to musical notation... (3)
ABC format and MIDI fines (9)
ABC Format (7)
ABC tune finder (5)
Playing ABC snippets (3)
ABC discussion from another thread (6)
Test of ABC Format (34)
ABC (3)


Jack Campin 14 Jul 09 - 09:55 AM
Will Fly 14 Jul 09 - 09:41 AM
Will Fly 14 Jul 09 - 09:40 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 14 Jul 09 - 09:40 AM
Will Fly 14 Jul 09 - 09:39 AM
Jack Campin 14 Jul 09 - 09:20 AM
SteveMansfield 14 Jul 09 - 09:10 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 14 Jul 09 - 09:06 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 14 Jul 09 - 09:04 AM
Jack Campin 14 Jul 09 - 08:58 AM
manitas_at_work 14 Jul 09 - 08:35 AM
manitas_at_work 14 Jul 09 - 08:31 AM
manitas_at_work 14 Jul 09 - 08:30 AM
The Borchester Echo 14 Jul 09 - 08:28 AM
The Sandman 14 Jul 09 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,Chris Walshaw 14 Jul 09 - 06:57 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:55 AM

This is the kind of thing I was thinking of:

Ferneyhough, Bone Alphabet score

Ferneyhough conducting a rehearsal of Bone Alphabet and singing along

Representing the dynamics is way beyond ABC at present, too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:41 AM

Sorry for the double post - computer did silly things!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:40 AM

When I first heard of the abc notation - around 2 years or so ago (I'd always used SN before that), I also wondered at first why it had been created. I was discussing it with a melodeon player at a session, and he mentioned that he found abc very, very useful because he could - like Jack - just quickly jot down a tune he'd heard for the first time at a session, AND send it out to friends.

I find it incredibly useful in conjunction with the music notation program I use - "Harmony Assistant - as I can copy a tune in abc format from the web, paste it into Word, save as a text file with the .abc suffix, and then open it up with Harmony Assistant. The programme converts it instantly into SN and allows me to play it on the computer.

Brilliant - and manythanks to Mick Pearce above for an excellent exposition of abc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:40 AM

Steve - thanks!

You could be right about that Jack - none of the 1.6, 1.7 or draft 2 revIV, say anything about nesting of tuplets. However the notation itself seems capable of expressing it, even if none of the software can realise it!

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:39 AM

When I first heard of the abc notation - around 2 years or so ago (I'd always used SN before that), I also wondered at first why it had been created. I was discussing it with a melodeon player at a session, and he mentioned that he found abc very, very useful because he could - like Jack - just quickly jot down a tune he'd heard for the first time at a session, AND send it out to friends.

I find it incredibly useful in conjunction with the music notation program I use - "Harmony Assistant - as I can copy a tune in abc format from the web, paste it into Word, save as a text file with the .abc suffix, and then open it up with Harmony Assistant. The programme converts it instantly into SN and allows me to play it on the computer.

Brilliant - and manythanks to Mick Pearce above for an excellent exposition of abc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:20 AM

any rhythm that can be expressed in standard notation can be expressed in abc

Not quite. The standard is ambiguous on this, but as far as I know nobody has ever implemented the ability to nest tuplets. If I remember right, there is an example on the cover of the LP of Brian Ferneyhough's String Quartet no. 2 where he has a quintuplet inside a triplet inside a quintuplet. You would have to represent that as a 75-plet in ABC if you wanted any available software to process it. Ferneyhough does that sort of thing a lot.

Maybe Captain Birdseye plays Ferneyhough on his concertina? If so, can we have a YouTube link? There's a YouTube of the solo flute number from "Carceri d'Invenzione" - that should in principle be doable on the concertina.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:10 AM

Mick, I'd started writing something as well, but then got interrupted and the thread had moved on. To be honest you put it much better than I had anyway, so I'll just plug my abc tutorial pages at

http://www.lesession.co.uk/abc

and move on :)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:06 AM

Sorry - it took me so long to write that that several of the points have been covered in the meantime!

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:04 AM

Dick

I don't think I've ever been brought to a state where I've said this before on Mudcat (though I've often thought it - I usually consider it waste of time trying to have a proper discussion here - I kept out of the university degree course arguments, though I am massively in favour of them. I normally confine myself to posting songs and information about them), but what a load of bollocks.

The system of notation commonly recognised as abc was the invention of Chris Walshaw; simple and accepted fact.

It is different from standard music notation, but is capable of representing pretty much anything that can be done in standard notation. Certainly any rhythm that can be expressed in standard notation can be expressed in abc (including, in later versions, compound time signatures, multiple voices and a host of other things. I wouldn't want to do many of them in abc, but it is possible).

Learning by ear is not a comparison you can make with a notation system. They serve two different purposes. All notation systems (standard included) are approximations to what the musician is meant to reproduce from the score. They rely on the musician knowing what the unwritten implications of the score are. Bach's contemporaries looking at the relatively unadorned scores he wrote had to know what dynamics were expected where and what ornaments were expected, without them being written in the score. There were stylistic elements not in the score that the musician had to know to interpret it correctly. (The Early Music movement spent a lot of energy researching those unwritten nuances). Learning tunes by ear fulfills that same function - there are stylistic elements of rhythm and ornamentation that you learn by ear.

Notation (of any kind) has a different purpose - it is to record the tunes/songs to enable people who have no chance of hearing them (people far away in distance or time), to be able to play them. Most of the time the notation is incomplete - it would be too time consuming to notate everything exactly (Some modern scores do attempt to do just that, but they are exceptionally hard to follow - trust me I know whereof I speak). To say that learning by ear is what should be done would be to say that all literature should be heard orally and memorised. How much literature would anyone ever know if that was the case? The invention of printing was not considered a brilliant idea for nothing. You can read far more than you can ever hope to hear recited and the same goes for music.

Learning by ear is a great skill; the vast amount of tunes I know I learned by ear in sessions, as probably most of the song tunes I know; but not all in either case. Modern classical musicians are better at this than they used to be too - it's not all from the page. But it's only one aspect of music.

Finally abc is not meant to replace standard notation - it has a different purpose. abc is text-based and concise, whereas standard music notation on the computer requires relatively (or even definitely) expensive, dedicated packages and produces, by and large, proprietary format files. Only with some take-up of musicXML has another text-format for music been more widely available (musicXML is not the only one - there were several attempts to define standard text-based formats, but most have fallen by the wayside). But musicXML has two disadvantages compared to abc - it's extremely verbose and it's not very human-readable. The advantage of abc are that the format is very concise and it's simple enough for a human to read (and even play from - which I have rarely done). That's the reason why abc was taken up so widely. You can get away with nothing more than a text editor.

I converted (programatically, I add) the entire DT to abc. Why? Because I can put the whole thing into a simple data base, tunes and all. I could have saved the Songwright files there (they are also text based), but Songwright is definitely a minority format (and also more verbose, and not as versatile as abc). I already have tune database with thousands of abc tunes in. The databases could store links to other format files (or binary objects of other format files) - Sibelius docs, scanned images - but the effort to create those would have been enormous.

I am a proficient standard notation reader (I'm a licentiate level classical guitarist), but I still use abc for a lot of things, even though I have Finale on my computer. For recording single line melodies it's quick and simple and a brilliant idea. On the abc related web-sites you'll find examples of Beethoven scores and other things that I wouldn't dream of using abc for; when I want to write classical guitar music I use Finale, not abc. Horses for courses.

I have no vested interest in abc, it's just a tool I use, like many others. But try and have some proper appreciation of what it's for.

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:58 AM

The inventor of abc?people have ben using it for decades.

People have been using alphabetic notations for about 3500 years that we know of. Those notations were not ABC. The central innovation in ABC is the header part of the tune - this is an idea derived from TeX and which probably wouldn't have come naturally to anyone living at a time when TeX wasn't around. (The earliest computer implementations of ABC translated it to a macro system built on top of TeX, which in turn generated typeset staff notation).

it is [imo]an inferior system to music notation,and inferior to learning by ear.
it is in my opinion,more difficult to define rhythym accurately than standard music notation,so why bother, why not learn to read music notation,it is not verey difficult,or alternatively record the tunes and learn by ear.


How about you actually look at the ABC website, look at what people do with it, and learn something before talking out of your arse?

Here's my equivalent of Chris's anecdote. I was noodling on an electronic bagpipe on a train in Slovakia and this 2/4 march tune popped out. All I had to record it on was the white space on a used train ticket. Hence the title.

X:1
T:Marion's Ticket
C:Jack Campin 2007
M:2/4
Q:1/4=72
K:Hp
A2A>A B2A2 |e2e>f g4|a2e2 a2e2 |a2e>d B2G2|
A2A>A B2A2 |e2e>f g4|a2e>d B2ed |B2A2 A4 :|
a2e>g a2e>g|a2e>f g4|a2e>f g2e>d|e2d>B B2G2|
A2A>A B2A2 |e2e>f g4|a2e>d B2ed |B2A2 A4 :|

You don't need to know ABC to hear it or see it in staff notation - just copy it (all ten lines) into the box at the folkinfo converter, hit the Submit button and it will generate the staff notation. Click on the staff notation and it will play a MIDI.

Now tell me what more I could have conveyed about that tune if I'd used staff notation instead. I'd have had to write helluva small.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:35 AM

Also, I believe the system is flexible enough to be able to score classical music for several parts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:31 AM

the above was meant as a reply to Dick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:30 AM

You've missed the point of abc entirely. Standard stave notation and tablature are impossible to send by text based email - abc isn't. Chris formalised the use of letters to represent notes and extended it to include other musical indications - in this respect he is the inventor of the system. It has the added advantage of being as easy to read as stave notation and, like stave notation and unlike tablature, is independent of the instrument being notated for.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:28 AM

It has always been my understanding that Chris Walshaw invented abc about 20 years ago in order to take down tunes before he'd learned to read notation, then afterwards contrived a program/conjuring trick to enable abc conversion to standard notation and MIDIs via that nifty little onverter on cencertinanet. Don't think he ever intended it as a substitute for those who can't be arsed to learn notation, just as a temporary aide memoire that escalated into far-reaching digital implications.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:05 AM

The inventor of abc?people have ben using it for decades.
it is [imo]an inferior system to music notation,and inferior to learning by ear.
it is in my opinion,more difficult to define rhythym accurately than standard music notation,so why bother, why not learn to read music notation,it is not verey difficult,or alternatively record the tunes and learn by ear.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: BBC Radio 4 features abc
From: GUEST,Chris Walshaw
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 06:57 AM

BBC Radio 4 is shortly to broadcast a programme about abc and its impact on the world of traditional music.

Entitled "From Dots to Download", the programme documents the use of abc music notation in the rediscovery of old manuscript tune-books from the 18th and 19th centuries.

The programme goes out on 21st July at 1.30pm and will be available to listen again for 7 days after the broadcast from:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00lp15m

It features interviews with Chris Walshaw, inventor of abc, and members of the Village Music Project team and is presented by singer and musician, Tim van Eyken.

Chris


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 3 June 7:42 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.