|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Greg F. Date: 12 Aug 10 - 08:54 AM What Bruce just wrote in that post involves, no doubt unintentionally, a complete misrepresentation of a number of facts... In light of past practice, makes you think it was UNINTENTIONAL? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 10 - 08:51 AM The Nazis come to mind because of the relatively recent history of the Jewish people - they appear to have provided the Israelis with good role-models. Attempts to turn this argument on its head will need a bit more evidence than a couple of smears by a couple of pro-Zionist fanatics who appear to want this conflict to go on till the Palestinians are driven out, and the examples already provided will need to be dealt with a little more conviction than unsubstantiated innuendo. Come on fellers - you can do a little better than that, surely? Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:37 AM Bobad, Now that you bring it up, I don't understand Nazi fixation either. Though I suspect there is a university student somewhere studying it as one of many potential phobia-disorders. One could try a GOOGLE search. I have seen a few extreme cases that lead to incredibly rash theories (akin to religious beliefs), with an inability to accept counter-evidence, regardless of its validity. Could it be a left over from wartime days? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: bobad Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:55 AM What's spooky to me is people who are fixated on Nazis. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 10 - 03:16 AM Interesting to see how this has turned from a discussion on the presentday situation between Palestine and Israel, to a war council of the terrorist state supporters to decide the their way forward, or in this case backward. A sort of 'where to now - Iran maybe'. Tell me again; who is it wants peace and who are the warmongerers? "no rights are being denied that do not affect the security of Israeli citizens," I think this was one of the claims maid when Germany invaded Poland and Czechoslovakia. The parallels really are spooky. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Teribus Date: 12 Aug 10 - 12:46 AM Did Jordan have a right to the West Bank? I can't say. But you seem to think that conquest confers all the rights necessary in that part of the world. Not at all mousethief. Jordan had no right whatsoever to the West Bank or to any part of Jerusalem. It invaded and annexed them between 1948 and 1967, in that time they denied the rights of Palestinians (Jew & Arab). In 1967 Israel took the territory back from the Jordanians no rights are being denied that do not affect the security of Israeli citizens, Palestinian Arabs can settle anywhere as can Jews, it is the Palestinian Authority that is keeping people in camps where they have been imprisoned since 1948 - imprisoned first by Jordanians and now by their elected leaders. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:15 PM I did the homework, that I promised, but dang, the hateful rhetoric just intensified...I'm so, so sorry for those who are unable to rise higher, and took sides, instead of offering solutions....or allowing a solution to work in them....so very sorry. ...and their music suffers as well, and says nothing... GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: bobad Date: 11 Aug 10 - 10:30 PM Wait I just noticed that that's his usual format anyway, I don't usually manage to get that far into his posts. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: bobad Date: 11 Aug 10 - 10:01 PM Excellent suggestion Ed, I shall pass it on to my good friend lox. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:51 PM "Wouldn't it be a good idea for everyone posting in this thread to decide not to write posts in a way that sets out to insult the people with whom they are arguing? What's the point of doing that? Does it do anything to add strength to the position you are advocating, or to weaken the position which you are criticising"? Or, another idea...just put your point being made first and then list the insult at the last....to save readers time from separating the personal insult from the point being made. Those not wishing to read the insult, could then abort early? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:34 PM How old were you, when this was first heard?? Any clues yet????? Watch Listen Think! GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: bobad Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:20 PM One of the main Jewish personalities who negotiated the granting of the [Balfour] declaration was Dr. Chaim Weizmann, the leading spokesman for organized Zionism in Britain. During meetings in 1906 between Chaim Weizmann and Balfour, the Unionist leader was impressed by Weizman's personality. Balfour asked Weizmann why Palestine—and Palestine alone—could be the basis for Zionism. "Anything else would be idolatry", Weizmann protested, adding: "Mr. Balfour, supposing I were to offer you Paris instead of London, would you take it?" "But Dr. Weizmann", Balfour retorted, "we have London", to which Weizmann rejoined, "That is true, but we had Jerusalem when London was a marsh." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM The seperation of 77% of the Mandate territory, in violation of that mandate, makes sense ONLY if it was to provide for seperate Homelands. Transjordan was 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory- and settlement there was restricted ONLY TO MOSLEMS. IS THAT ACCORDING TO THE TEXT YOU QUOTE???? So, if you think the text applies, then the Jewish Homeland should include ALL of TransJordan. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:08 PM The separation of Palestine from Transjordan in no way implied that "a Jewish homeland" should require a majority Jewish state, or altered the guarantee "that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:41 PM "As for the Mandate of 1923, while this endorsed "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people", this was subject to the qualification "it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". There was no suggestion that being "a homeland for the Jewish people" implied a Jewish majority or the exclusion of Palestinians from the territory involved. " That was the ORIGINAL Mandate, prior to the removal of 77% of the Mandate territory to the new Arab-only state of Trans-Jordan. Great Britain decided, like in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, that the different groups each needed their OWN state, and acted accordingly. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:37 PM It really would help if people arguing on both sides actually did their homework when talking about the background history. What bruce just wrote in that post involves, no doubt unintentionally, a complete misrepresentation of a number of facts, notably about the peace treaties between Israel and Jordan and Egypt. As for the Mandate of 1923, while this endorsed "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people", this was subject to the qualification "it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". There was no suggestion that being "a homeland for the Jewish people" implied a Jewish majority or the exclusion of Palestinians from the territory involved. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:02 PM Mousecrook, The West Bank was a part ( as was Gaza) of the portion of Mandate Palestine designated as the Jewish Homeland. Jordan conquered it in 1948, but gave it back to Israel under the terms of the peace treaty where Jordan recognized Israel. Egypt conquered Gaze in 1948, but returned it to Israel in the peace treaty where Egypt recognized Israel. IN BOTH CASES, the conquering country recognized that the PALESTINIANS did not have the right to settle there, and kept them in refugee camps. When Israel took back that territory, they allowed settlement of both Palestinians and Israelis on the West Bank. Gaza was GIVEN to the Palestinians, in exchange for the cessation of attacks- since the Hamas government has violated that, the Palestinians in Gaza have no right to even remain there. Israel has stated that they were willing to trade land (parts of the West Bank, and Gaza) for PEACE. So there is no right of the Palestinians to ANY of the West Bank or Gaze UNLESS THEY agree to peace- WHICH THEY HAVE NOT. A State of WAR still exists- and BOTH sides are acting accordingly. Israel HAS annexxed Jerusalem, and will not allow Jews to be prohibited from the Temple Mount. It has ALSO given the Arabs access AND CONTROL of the mosque on top of the Temple Mount, unlike when the Arabs controlled Jerusalem, and did not allow access to sites to all. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:50 PM "And the Shatila-Sabra massacres?" Conducted by Lebonese militias. I believe the Israelis who let them enter the camps were put on trial. And one was later made Prime Minister. There's justice for you. And also a good picture of how the Israeli electorate feels about the massacres. Teribus: Israel did not "take back" the West Bank in 1967. It has not annexed it. If it did, then every person living there would be an Israeli citizen. They are occupying that territory, and biting it off in chunks to give to Israeli settlers. Their aim is clearly to have it all (they have said no less; this point seems to pass people by), but drive the Palestinians out first, so it doesn't have to make them citizens. And you support this aim by your defense of the actions on the ground. But you only talk about Jerusalem in your response. Have you conceded that they have no right to annex land in the West Bank, or do you just not have any good arguments about that right now? I'm waiting for something from recognized international law that says a country can steal territory that its rightful owners aren't using (to the extent that the thieves demand). I have a feeling I'm going to wait a long time. I think Jim had the right word for it. Lebensraum. Did Jordan have a right to the West Bank? I can't say. But you seem to think that conquest confers all the rights necessary in that part of the world. You apply it lopsidedly, of course. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:31 PM "I do however fault the Israeli army for not intervening to stop the killing," The Israelis provided the transport to the camps, the weapons and opened the gates to let the Phalangists in. The investigation team judged Sharon guilty - he later became prime minister Bye John - enjoy your hypocracy You're rambling again GfS - take your pills Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:12 PM Jim, Just like the radical Palestinian groups, and Israel, I have held out an olive branch to you...and what are you doing??..You're spitting out verbal missiles to your brothers on here. Really, you need to let it go. To champion another's hate, is to supply more hate...a far cry from forgiving your enemies...which of course, ends enemies. Remember, what I posted, "THE ENERGY YOU PUT INTO A SYSTEM, TENDS TO CHANGE THAT SYSTEM!!!." Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis will come any closer to reconciliation, nor you with your fellow 'Mudcatters' by holding on to the differences, and generating contempt for each other. Nobody lobbed a missile at you, therefore, that SHOULD be an enabler to think with more clarity, and less hostile emotion...From THERE, 'Peace' can be lifted up...'Reason', then, is blocked if rationality is overshadowed, and replaced by hostile emotions! When one is 'CLEAR', and only then, can he/she, point the way!...if not you're just going to go round and round in circles....like the Mid-East. As for me, that conflict will NOT spread and consume my being, as it has their's. To point the way, find what it takes in you, to be at peace!! Wishing You the Best, GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM Hmmm. Religious hypocrite? Perhaps, but not in the context of anything I've written at Mudcat, here or ever. And never in any discussion of the Levantine problem at any time or any where. But name-calling becomes you (and don't expect an apology this time). As to Sabra and Shatilla, the massacres were conducted by Lebanese militia. I do however fault the Israeli army for not intervening to stop the killing, as the perpetrators were their allies. However, when Palestineans were expelled from Jordan, they set-up a state-within-a-state in the south of Lebanon. No need to repeat the details and history of the 1980s to you; you'll deny them anyway, because they don't fit your preconception of the problem. And so, I think I'll take number6's, biLL's, advice, and bid adieu to this thread. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:43 PM "And the Shatila-Sabra massacres?" Conducted by Lebonese militias. I believe the Israelis who let them enter the camps were put on trial. And waiting for ANY Palestinan trials of those who killed Israeli civilians of POWs. "want to see a mutually agreed peace" Mutual means BOTH sides- you have already stated that Israel has no say in the terms of YOUR "Peace" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:39 PM PS - As hard as I've looked I can find no reference whatever to the large scale slaughter of unarmed Palestinian refugees by Jordanians. I have found descriptions of battles where large numbers of soldiers killed each other - but sorry; no slaughter of refugees. Perhaps you can enlighten us - as if it had the slightest bearing on the cold-blooded massacre of confined refugees by the people you are supporting - but whose atrocities you won't even acknowledge. As I said - a bunch of fundamental religious hypocrites. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:17 PM Bruce - unlike you, I don't aim for a victory of one side over the other in this conflict but want to see a mutually agreed peace - whereas you seem to be heading for nothing short of Promised Land. "Tell me about the 20K Palestinians killed by Jordan?" Oh sorry, forgot about them; in that case tell your Israeli friends it's ok to slaughter anything up to that number; is that what you're saying? As I said - you people really are the pits. And the Shatila-Sabra massacres? Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:04 PM Jim, YOU seem to ignore all that happened before 1967- and until you understand the history, you are incompatent at telling anyone what to do to solve it. At least with the massacres YOU note, there were trials and publicity- Tell me about the 20K Palestinians killed by Jordan? Or if Arabs kill them, it's ok by you? Show me ONE trial by Palestinians against an Arab killer of Israelis. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Aug 10 - 02:48 PM "The Israeli's have every right to build in Jerusalem." And evict the tenants of 24 houses to build a tourist centre? And pre-empt a court decision in a case that had been won by the tenants on several occasions previously, and go ahead and evict forty families from their homes. As if the evictions aren't bad enough, the constant dehumanisation that takes place in Jerusalem is typical of the Israeli attitude towards people the appear to regard as lower beings. A friend who attended the 1996 International Ballad Conference in Jerusalem described the constant humiliation of Arabs by Israeli police and soldiers who appeared to consider themselves some sort of 'Master Race'. He said that after a few days he wouldn't have been surprised to see Arabs wearing yellow stars. This attitude was summed up pretty well for me with a story that appeared in the press some years ago of an Arab violinist who was stopped at a checkpoint and, on explaining he was on his way to a concert, was made to play for the guards, who lounged around sneering. All spookily reminiscent of Fania Fénelon and her little orchestra who were forced to play for the Nazi officers in Auschwitz and Bergen Belsen. John, You and your supporters cite things that happened pre 1967 yet feel unable to comment on two massacres of refugees which took place in 1982, making you all a bunch of religious hypocrites. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: bobad Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:54 PM A short video that that sheds some light on the question of Israel's land rights in international law. San Remo's Mandate: Israel's 'Magna Carta' |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:47 PM Jews |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:40 PM Was there a ban on Jews visiting Jerusalem from 1948 to 1967, rather than a ban on people with Israeli travel documents? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: number 6 Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:39 PM Wouldn't it be a good idea if everyone quit posting to this thread. It just goes on ... and on ..... and on It's not a debate anymore, or even an exchange of rational arguments. Anyway, I'm outta this one ... I've expressed my views ... and pretty everyone has expressed their views, no need to regurgitate it all over, and over and over like a never ending wash cycle. biLL |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:24 PM Teribus, "The Israeli's have every right to build in Jerusalem." Yes ... except for the bits that they occupy illegally ... Note the words "occupy" and "illegally" ... even better, go and look them up in a dictionary. GfS writes: "Brain-LOX: "The answer to which GfS is that reasoning with Jim also requires you to be able to think and speak coherently." Huhh?? GfS" Thus illustrating my point beautifully. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:20 PM "Sigh - but those holy sites also belong to others, so nobody has any right to ban anybody else... " From 1948 to 1967, when the Arabs were in control of Jerusalem, Jews WERE NOT PERMITTED to visit the holy sites. From 1967 onward, when Israel has been in control, ARABS have controlled who visits the Moslem Holy sites in Jerusalem. And you criticise Israel???????? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:12 PM Mr. Carroll, please accept my apology for the sarcasm in my last post. It was unseemly. That said, I marvel at the specific way you frame your argument about whom you hate. It is very specific, so as to be almost inarguable. It reminds me of the way many contracts and laws are made in the United State (I don't know where you are, and it may be different there if not the US) which are so specific that only one entity can possibly meet the requirements, thereby being the only one to benefit from the law or contract. For instance: Your statement--"My hate is confined to those who kill and persecute civilians, whether for some metaphysical reason or for the aquisition of territory, and for those who support that killing and persecution, either directly or by their silence." A hypothetical government bill: "Bidders on this contract shall have they headquarters in our city. They will have performed this service for a minimum of ten years, and performed this service on a minimum of 25 projects. They will have operating funds in excess of $500 million dollars. The corporate board shall consist of at least 33% officers who are covered by Equal Employment Opportunity Act." Now there may be many companies which can perform the service quite adequately, or even better, but they don't meet all the provisions set forth in that bill. And that is a typical Jim Carroll (and some others) argument on these threads. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:37 PM Wouldn't it be a good idea for everyone posting in this thread to decide not to write posts in a way that sets out to insult the people with whom they are arguing? What's the point of doing that? Does it do anything to add strength to the position you are advocating, or to weaken the position which you are criticising? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Teribus Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:32 PM So any crowded country can steal adjacent land from a neighbouring country if it's not being used? Now what adjacent country would you be taking about in Jerusalem mousethief? The bit that Jordan illegally "annexed" in 1948 which Israel took back in 1967, i.e. the bit that has always belonged to the Palestine defined in 1923 by the British with the authorisation and approval of the League of Nations, and which NEVER belonged to Jordan? Lox is there such a country as Palestine? The answer to that question is: "No there is not" Gaza used to be in British Mandated Palestine it was therefore open to settlement by anybody only Trans-Jordan was reserved solely for Arab occupation. In 1948 Egypt illegally invaded annexed and occupied Gaza. In 1967 the Israelis drove them out and returned Gaza to what formerly used to be known as Palestine. On 1st September 2005 the Israeli unilaterally gave up Gaza to the Palestinians. The West Bank and East Jerusalem used to be in British Mandated Palestine and as such open to settlement by anybody. In 1948 Jordanillegally invaded, annexed and occupied the West Bank of the Jordan and part of Jerusalem which up until that point had been a undivided city. In 1967 Israeli forces drove the Jordanians out. The Jordanians maintained their claim on the terrirtory, a claim that was never recognised by any international body until 1988. With the exception of East Jerusalem and the former Israeli - Jordanian no man's land, the West Bank was not annexed by Israel. The Israeli's have every right to build in Jerusalem. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:31 PM Mr. Carroll, your post at 12:12pm is truly Orwellian. The use of the term 'Holy sites' in no way implies a 'holy war'. But you go on thinking and writing that kind of tripe. I'm sure it makes you feel better. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:12 PM "That is your own hate-filled interpretation. " My hate is confined to those who kill and persecute civilians, whether for some metaphysical reason or for the aquisition of territory, and for those who support that killing and persecution, either directly or by their silence. My respect for your opinion might be influenced considerably by a commment from you on recognised Israeli atrocities rather than your continued silence, which in its way, speaks as loudly as any words can. Your statement suggests that you regard this as a holy war. As far as I'm concerned nobody should be made to suffer or die for the religious beliefs of others - and that includes all religions. "Huhh??" Yup - that just about sums it up. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:17 AM "'Never again should Jews be barred from their Holy sites' And with that statement John puts this all in a nutshell - a fundamentalism that allows thousands of refugees to be herded into camps and slaughtered, and allows the apologists for the people who did it to remain silent in their support for such bestiality." Sorry, Mr. Carroll, I didn't, say that; I didn't, mean that; and I did not imply that. That is your own hate-filled interpretation. Actually, your statement does not accurately represent the facts on the ground, nor has it anything to do with what I wrote. I did write that Jerusalem should be within Israel in a two state solution. I did not write that other groups should be excluded from living there. I did write that Jews should control their Holy sites; I did not write others should be excluded from them. In fact, I pointed out that Israel has allowed access to such places to all religions since regaining Jerusalem...which is more than can be said for Jordan when it occupied the West Bank. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:11 AM 400 Brain-LOX: "The answer to which GfS is that reasoning with Jim also requires you to be able to think and speak coherently." Huhh?? GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:10 AM |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:48 AM ""Never again should Jews be barred from their Holy sites"" Sigh - but those holy sites also belong to others, so nobody has any right to ban anybody else... Do you know WHO looks after and guards/protects the most holy sites (for ALL the several religions who hold the sites in mutual respect) in Jerusalem - hint - it was NOT Jews - unless they have run off those who did the job for ages.... and THEY didn't ban anybody.... Sigh - people's lack of knowledge about much of the rubbish they spout about this subject is amazing.... I learned about it easily enough, and I haven't even BEEN there ... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:43 AM I couldn't resist this exchange. "Mousethief you have not answered my questions at all: Question 1: for all those chattering on about stealing land every three months: "Why not what are the Palestinians doing with it? Sweet FA as far as I can see." Answer 1: If you're not using your back 40 acres, I can steal it from you? Sweet. That's just fucked up, dude. Well no it is not actually Dude, if you live in a very small country with an increasing population, there is no land that can be allowed to go to waste." Let me see if I've got this right ... Israel is a small country and doesn't have much living room. Palestinians aren't using their land in a way that Teribus feels justifies their possession of it. Therefore Israelis have the right to annex any land that they feel they would make better use of than the palestinians are. Annexing neighbouring territory because space is limited ... ... there's a word for that ... Lebensraum. Then I saw this amusing tit-bit from GfS: "Jim....Good post, OK?...I believe we can reason together...seriously." The answer to which GfS is that reasoning with Jim also requires you to be able to think and speak coherently. This is very unlikely to happen in our lifetime. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:17 AM Jim....Good post, OK?...I believe we can reason together...seriously. What I'd like to do, is check some homework, and give you some historical data, so I don't risk being inaccurate with the fine points, in regards to this 'God awful' mess of hate and fear, over there, which is spreading all over this planet. Please, keep in mind, that what I'd like to share with you, is meant from heart to heart..because ALL hate, and fear and forms of violent aggression, are fed and fueled by the collective conscience of ALL of us. To be truly against it, and combat the real enemy, we must be clear of that same negative energy!...take this to heart, and anyone else out there in cyber-land, who may be reading this: THE ENERGY YOU PUT INTO A SYSTEM, TENDS TO CHANGE THAT SYSTEM!!!...and this I promise you, being as I assume you are a musician, that if you grab what I'm going to try to turn you on to, your music, sensitivity, and the ability to communicate PEACE, and LOVE, through your music, and have people identify that, in themselves, because of what your music is reaching in them, your music and abilities, will blow you away!!!!!..and also those who hear it!!...Promise!..Fair enough?..I'll get back to you, when I check my stuff. Until then, relax, take it easy. Peace(?), GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:39 AM "Never again should Jews be barred from their Holy sites" And with that statement John puts this all in a nutshell - a fundamentailsm that allows thousands of refugees to be herded into camps and slaughtered, and allows the apologists for the people who did it to remain silent in their support for such bestiality. No - I don't support any such act by ANY religion, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, ANY RELIGION. For me, the situation in Gaza is about the inhuman treatment of the ordinary people of that City who are bombed, slaughtered made homeless, have their schools and hospitals destroyed and their livelihoods, even the basic necessities of day-to-day living taken away, while the rest of the world stands by murmuring small sounds of regret and little else, (except to assist their persecutors to obtain Nuclear weapons so that they can continue to 'fight the good fight' in tht troubled part of the world) because it is not in their political and economic interest to do so. And all so their persecutors can have access to their "Holy sites" - yet another holy war; thank you for summing it up so succinctly John. My hatred of violence does not extend as far as asking these persecuted people to lay down their arms, their only form of defence, as paltry as it is, in the face of what is being thrown at them; the recent history of this conflict has provided enough examples of what they might expect should they surrender to such an vicious enemy. I wonder if, should the world be plunged into a shooting war with Iran, as seems possible, our apologists will continue to sing the praises of the aggressors as loudly as they do here - I suppose they will. Jim Carroll PS GfS - if you can find any contradicition in my attitude here and my stance on clerical child abuse, please feel free to point it out - I await your offering with much interest. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:11 AM AND.....Jim Carroll: "I have no great time for Catholicism, but at least they 'confess' their sins and not stay siilent about them..." My, isn't that a 'Jimmy Reversal' of what you were fuming about in the thread about the Catholic Church, and the clergy, molesting children?? What is this?? Selective hatred, at the appropriately 'politically correct time'???......OR, are you just as good as the last person you talked to??? At least the Pope publicly forgave the Muslim who shot him,attempting to assassinate him....instead of lobbing Vatican missiles into his homeland..into domestic neighborhoods! As much as I don't agree with all of the tenets of Catholicism, that one act of forgiveness, kicked the assassin's ass, and ALL he stands for...for all those who 'got it'. Come on, now keep up! With Love in my heart...even for you, GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:03 AM So their land was stolen in 1948, presumably during "Operation Clean Sweep" (an ethnic cleansing by Israeli forces). My bad. I answered your questions, you just don't like my answers. I'm sorry, but saying that because no Palestinians were using that land at the time, it's okay for Israel to steal it, is just messed up. So any crowded country can steal adjacent land from a neighbouring country if it's not being used? (Although not all the settlements and outposts are on adjoining land, it should be said.) I really doubt there's any such provision in international law. Show me I'm wrong and I'll admit it. And of course occupied Palestinian homes were demolished last month by Israel. So your "they're not using it" thing doesn't even cover all the cases I mentioned. Israel clearly is not interested in peace. Your desire to exonerate Israel of any wrongdoing is typical of your allies on this thread. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Teribus Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:19 AM Mousethief you have not answered my questions at all: Question 1: for all those chattering on about stealing land every three months: "Why not what are the Palestinians doing with it? Sweet FA as far as I can see." Answer 1: If you're not using your back 40 acres, I can steal it from you? Sweet. That's just fucked up, dude. Well no it is not actually Dude, if you live in a very small country with an increasing population, there is no land that can be allowed to go to waste. The USA, Canada and Australia do not have such problems other countries have. To put a folk music twist to it, just such a law exists in the UK, look into the Seumas Mor song entitled "The Seven Men of Knoydart". Billions upon billions of every currency in the world have been thrown in aid at the "Palestinians" (Arabs) and they have done absolutely nothing with that at all, not one bloody cent of it has been spent benefiting "the people", they have wasted and squandered the lot. Question 2: "Why are there Palestinian refugee camps in the West Bank and in Gaza? The land is Palestinian FFS" Answer 2: Because their homes, which were stolen from them in 1952 (if I remember right - maybe 1953 - the absentee land grab law) are in Israel. Pity that the camps were set up for the Palestinian Arabs, on Palestinian land by Egyptians and Jordanians in 1949. So events of 1952 or 1953 have no relevance. At the same time round about 820,000 Jews who had been dispossessed and deported from Arab countries all over the world were dumped on Israel. The Israeli's did not shut those people up in camps to make political pawns out of them, they welcomed them in and absorbed them into the fabric of their communities. While people chatter on about Palestinian Arab right of return, the right of return or compensation for these 820,000 Jews is conveniently ignored. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:08 PM Things have now reached the stage where all active participants seem to only want the Peace of The Grave. Sad but appears to be true. I wonder if the people who rail against the Gazans for voting in Hamas also rail at the Israelis for voting in Likud? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 10 Aug 10 - 10:38 PM "If they wanted peace, than firing missiles is the way to achieve it???" Things have now reached the stage where all active participants seem to only want the Peace of The Grave. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 10 Aug 10 - 08:24 PM Jim Carroll: "Jim: "No, I mean those who justify slaughter in the name of your god whoever he or she may be, AND STILL STAY SILENT ABOUT THE ATROCITIES COMMITTED IN HIS OR HER NAME." Surely you can't mean the rest of Muslims, worldwide, can you?? GfS |
