BS: Iron lady

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:47 AM

Greg, if you would for once put your personal vendetta against me aside and simply consider my posts as if any other human being had written them, they wouldn't cause you to say such hostile things to me all the time.

I do appreciate moves AS entertainment, sure. Anyone does. But if they're about history, then I would hope they would manage to be both good entertainment AND good history. And why not? Isn't real history the most entertaining thing of all? I think so. Surely a well-made movie could accomplish both objectives.

I do read history books, you see. And that's why, when I see a movie about history, I am concerned about its historical accuracy. No story could possibly be as good as the REAL story, in my opinion. This is something that usually escapes Hollywood, but now and then they get it right. British films, on the other hand, seem to generally be more historically accurate from what I've seen.

For a really idiotic American film about history, for instance, try the recent "Pearl Harbour" with Ben Affleck. It could hardly have been any stupider or more pointless.

Now, try it. Just pretend, the next time you see any post of mine, that I didn't write it. Pretend that someone you don't already have a huge grudge against wrote it....someone you don't know...someone you never heard of...someone you haven't already decided to loathe, despise, and attack at every opportunity. Just another human being, and no personal ax to grind. I know it's tough, Greg, but you can do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:55 AM

It's not you, Little Hawk, that's just what he does. Whatever you do, don't tell him if you use a cell phone, that get's him really wound up;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:01 PM

Well, yeah, I know. I've almost never encountered anyone else online who is so unremittingly hostile. What's the big deal about the cellphones? Is he for them or against them?

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:57 PM

He doesn't like them, and has contempt for the people who use them. As you've noted, he brings hostility into even the blandest discussions. I suppose it keeps people interested, but it gets old.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:02 PM

Movies in the hands of a master, like Speilberg, Like Scorcese are our highest form of art. The masters respect the history and those portrayed.

As for these film makers.

"The best comment that I came across about "The Iron Lady" said something to the effect that everyone has a strong opinion about Margaret Thatcher except for the makers of the film."

Again, thanks to Stim.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:06 PM

He's a mean, angry little man. Picks fights. Throws insults about. Mean and petty.
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:07 PM

Don't mention it, JtS. I am a bit hesitant to post comments about movies, just because I don't want to spoil things for people who might want to see. When a film's been out for a while, and when it's had as much said about it as this one has, I feel a bit better about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:09 PM

I've got nothing against cell phones, Stim ( now who is that, really, masquerading as a "guest" I wonder ) they're a piece of inanimate electronic equipment. I use one myself.

Now, boorish, ignorant, techno-addicted assholes are entirely something else again.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:18 PM

Well, you found the right thread. And, as I remember, wasn't long ago that you were quite unpleasant to a number of people who preferred not to have landlines.

In fact, you are the one being boorish. Given that it is the internet, it tends to keep things entertaining, and, on that level is of value, it wears thin, though.

Are you, like our dear Henry Krinkle, just trying to mix things up, or is there something else going on?

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:35 PM

My opinion of Thatcher is such that I would never spend time or bucks to see a film about her. As for Streep's acting I would think her to be an excellent choice to play Thatcher! I find it rather strange to call her acting cold when she is portraying such a cold hearted bitch as a subject! To add a music twist to this thread Buck Owens had a big hit with a song called Act Naturally, and perhaps it could apply here as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:41 PM

Indeed! She was ideal for bringing that chilling patrician coldness and iron will to the Thatcher role.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:18 PM

you were quite unpleasant to a number of people who preferred not to have landlines.

Not at all, Stim (whoever you really are)- I was trying to prevent those people from dying because they did not understand the limitations of cell phone technology - which are many.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:12 PM

I don't think you changed anyone's mind. Whoever you really are;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: meself
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:00 PM

I've always felt Meryl Streep is a remarkable actress. Sorry - actor.

Who would you want to play Thatcher - Julia Roberts?

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Black Belt Caterpillar Wrestler
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 07:56 AM

"How pathetic! I really feel sorry for you, BBCW! "

I feel sorry for me as well and I know whom I am blaming, however, to return to the thread, the only actresses that I can think think would make a good job of portraying Margaret Thatcher would probably not contemplate accepting the role.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 08:31 AM

That seems rather an odd remark, BBCW. Actors play the roles in which they are cast, villains as well as heroes, nasty as well as nice people. They don't have to love their characters, you know. You remind me a bit of the naifs who would loudly denounce Iago from the gallery.

~~ A bit like saying that no actor would "contemplate accepting" the role of Claudius, or Lady Macbeth, or Richard III, or Le Vicomte de Valmont, or Sir Jasper Fiendish, or Captain Bligh, or Goldfinger, or Tracy McDonald, or Grant Mitchell, or JR, or Hubert Lane... Would make drama a little bit difficult, eh?

LoL ~~ at you, not with you!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Black Belt Caterpillar Wrestler
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 08:55 AM

Your examples are either fictional or historic, I don't think it's the same when you are contemplating a recent or contemporary person, there are a lot more considerations involved.

Actors play the parts in which they are content to be cast, balanced against their need for the money:)

I am most surely not an actor as the processess involved in portaying another person are way outside of my comfort zone.

Not wishing to cause controversy here, merely stating my predjudices and how they affect my reasoning. Probably to complicated a process to even start working out the root causes of my predjudices, suffice to say that Mrs Thatcher's actions and policies seem to me to have considerably erroded the potential happinesses in my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 09:33 AM

I see what you mean about contemporaneity, BB ~ up to a point. But surely nobody thinks, even with contemporary people, that the part an actor plays will bring the actor into such obloquy as some may hold the original character in; or that the person's vices, such as they might be, would rub off on to the actor. After all, distinguished actors have played Hitler.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Black Belt Caterpillar Wrestler
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 09:52 AM

Trying to analyse my reaction here; I would say that because I have difficulty in assuming the character of another person (It appears from other current threads that I'm not allowed to ponder whether I lean towards being an Aspurger's syndrome case) it therefore indicates to me that a truly succeful portrayal of a person by an actor could only be accomplished by an actor who to some extent could sympathise withthe subject.

I cannot defend this view, I am just saying that my built in predjudices have this effect, with the result that the actor concerned would always be tainted in my mind. My loss but also the actors.

I am tryng to think of any actors that have played Hitler or similar effectively that have not been affected in my view, and so far I can't think of any, it's a bit different with such as Chaplin's Great Dictator where the intent is to parody.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 10:21 AM

Here are a few, copied from wikipedia

The 2003 television film Hitler: The Rise of Evil stars Robert Carlyle in the title role

Moloch (1999), directed by Alexander Sokurov, starring Leonid Mozgovoy,

Hitler: The Last Ten Days (1973), directed by Ennio de Concini, starring Sir Alec Guinness

Soviet film series Liberation (1969–72), directed by Yuri Ozerov, starring Fritz Diez (an actor who commonly portrayed Hitler in a number of East German films from 1955 onwards)

Adolf Hitler, a British (7 January 1973) made-for-television production, starring Frank Finlay in the title role

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 10:56 AM

The finest acting portrayal of Hitler ever done was probably by Bruno Ganz in the recent film "Der Untergang" (The Downfall). It's a brilliantly realistic portrayal of the final days of the Nazi regime, focusing mainly on the last few days in Hitler's Berlin bunker.

It shows the characters as real people for a change, instead of as cardboard stereotypes. The most chilling individuals are probably Josef and Magda Goebbels, whose fanatical devotion to the cause and ideals of Naziism never flagged for a moment. There were plenty of others who began to see through the madness as it was falling apart...but even for them escape seemed virtually impossible. They were caught up in events that they could no longer control.

There are about a million silly prank videos on Youtube which use Hitler footage out of "Der Untergang" to make various jokes. A few of them are very witty, but the actual movie is brilliant...and quite depressing.

It manages to show Hitler as a multi-dimensional personality, and it may be the only movie that has ever managed that. Rather than being a stereotype of "pure evil", he was, like most people, a mixture of human qualities both good and bad....but the negative/paranoid side of him ended up becoming dominant over his life, and it led him and his country into utter disaster.

For any actor to portray him realistically, it has to be a tour de force. If, on the other hand, you're just portraying him as a "monster", well, I guess any hack who's had a week of training in Acting 101 could probably manage that.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 11:02 AM

meself: "Who would you want to play Thatcher - Julia Roberts?"

Tilda Swinton - Scottish rather than English, but very good. Or Kate Blanchett - Australian, and very good too. If we must have an American actress then Charlize Theron.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 11:05 AM

Unfortunate theat they're mostly too young, I'm forgetting this film was about Thatch in her dotage.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 11:15 AM

Thanks for that reminder, LH. That was indeed another distinguished portrayal of AH in a very fine film. I agree too about the excellent portrayal of the Goebbels.

So there are some more examples for you, BB, of actors who can inhabit the evil without becoming tarnished themselves. Acting is, do not forget, a job.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 11:37 AM

Evil, in any case, is ultimately nothing else than tragic. It is the failure of a human being to meet the challenge of overcoming their own inner darkness...and make no mistake, we all face that challenge.

I recently watched a not very well known made-for-TV movie on Youtube called "The Taking of Peggy Ann". It's a true story about a 17 year old rural girl in Pennsylvania who got abducted by a disturbed "redneck" individual, triggering off one of the biggest manhunts in the history of the USA. Unlike most made for TV films, this one had excellent acting, a realistic story, and was really very well done. The guy who kidnaps the girl is a pretty repulsive and weird loner, a person you feel little if any sympathy for...I spent most of the movie just wanting to see him shot dead. When he finally meets his inevitable end, though, one feels great relief...yes...but one also feels a great deal of pity. And that's how the girl felt too. She was tremendously relieved to be rescued, but she also pitied the man who had put her through the awful ordeal of being kidnapped and dragged around through the woods for over a week, and who knows what else...

She had come to realize the incredible loneliness and isolation of that man's life, and she felt sorry for him. His life was just one unremitting, hopeless tragedy...and it rebounded eventually on others and hurt them too.

That's what evil is, in the end. It's a tragedy...a case of positive human potential that was never realized, and a life that could have been a triumph over adversity, but ended up as nothing but a cruel failure.

Hitler could have gotten over the bitterness he felt about the loss of the First World War and the events that followed it. He could have forgiven the past and started out fresh. He could have become a painter or a writer, lived a good life, and done no harm to anyone. That possibility was there. The tragedy was that he went the other way and got swallowed by his own "dark side"...and he had strong enough talents in certain respects that it enabled him to take an entire country down with him.

It's a pretty challenging part for an actor to play, unless they just do the "cardboard" Hitler, as has been seen in any number of films.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:04 PM

Actors love to play controversial people. For one thing, it is a creative challenge to interpret a familiar personality, also, it is also, there is always an audience. If you do a bad job, it is tossed into the bargain video bins, but a good rendering will get Oscar consideration.

The role of Richard Nixon in the play and later movie, "Frost/Nixon"(Nixon was at least as controversial a character as Mrs. Thatcher) is another case in point. I saw Frank Langella play Nixon on Broadway, and then went home and watched the actual interviews, and thought that Langella was a more believable Nixon than Nixon was....

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:07 PM

"Charlize Theron."

Yes a skinny sexy Thatcher that's the ticket.


Born:
August 7, 1975 in Benoni, Gauteng, South Africa

I think you have the wrong idea of Iron lady.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: meself
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:15 PM

The internet tells me I'm forbidden to look at that picture. I guess they've found out about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:17 PM

They won't let me look at it either.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:19 PM

"Frost Nixon" was a polar opposite to "The Iron Lady" in the writing and information presented. It was almost entirely based on things they actually said.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:52 PM

Well, yes, and "opposite" because it examined Nixon, his action, and his place in history, instead of just using him as character in a story about something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:04 PM

I thoroughly enjoyed that movie about Richard Nixon and David Frost. There was a political movie well worth watching, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Musket
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:08 PM

I doubt I shall see Iron Lady, although once it is on TV, if there is nothing else on, I might do. My concerns are as ever, that nobody is a prophet in their own land, which translates as her being lauded everywhere but The UK where she is known as "Hasn't she bloody died yet?" I suspect Hollywood makes her look more competent than she ever was.

I wonder if the sequel will be her eventual demise when we suffer an international champagne shortage?

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:54 PM

Theron is an excellent actress. And she does a good female psycho. Disn't you ever see Monster?
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDReviews46/monster_theron_blu-ray/large/large_monster_blu-ray5x.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:58 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:04 PM
I thoroughly enjoyed that movie about Richard Nixon and David Frost. There was a political movie well worth watching, in my opinion."


Wow, wasn't Nixon played beautifully! Great film. Great acting. Evertyhing.

Me who posted the pic. of Theron in 'Monster' below BTW. Beautiful women can actually act too sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 02:01 PM

Musket. That last post of yours was a perfect example of speculation from zero data.

" I suspect Hollywood makes her look more competent than she ever was."

You could not have said that with any knowledge of the movie or even if you had read the comments about the movie on this thread.

Your choice if you want to do that. Doesn't help your credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 02:21 PM

"Monster" is a superb movie. It's also utterly heartbreaking. Don't watch it if you have a tendency to fall into clinical depression. Charlize Theron's acting in it could not have been better.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM

Charlize Theron was also excellent in last year's "Young Adult", a rather dark sort of comedy, where she plays an incredibly narcissistic and offensive author of children's books you end up caring about anyway. Many felt she should have been nominated for the Oscar that Streep got.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 11:36 AM

Hello Sailor!

Believe it or not, we have data available here in civilisation. As someone who has been to the cinema a few times and seen the odd DVD at home as it were, my speculation (note speculation, not conclusion you prat) is based on having been many times able to look at Hollywood's portrayal of many subjects, not least of all The UK, of which the industry has a fascination not matched by accuracy, sadly.

So zero data? No. First, a probability based on past form. Secondly, by err.. reading many of the comments on this thread. Or at least I thought I had till you pointed out that I hadn't. I'm confused now, because you defend Dumbfuckistan and that makes you clever.

zzzzzzzzz


Back to everyone else, I might watch it if there is nothing else on and I fancy watching a film. But it doesn't tend to be in Ms Streep's contract to ever play someone shallow, incompetent and the mouthpiece of clever dangerous people, ie Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 02:39 PM

You didn't see the movie, Musket. It portrayed Mrs. Thatcher as senile, and demented, so when you said," I suspect Hollywood makes her look more competent than she ever was.", it was pretty funny...

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 02:43 PM

Doubling down on willful ignorance. Interesting tactic!! LOL!!!

"Hello Sailor!

Believe it or not, we have data available here in civilisation. As someone who has been to the cinema a few times and seen the odd DVD at home as it were, my speculation (note speculation, not conclusion you prat) is based on having been many times able to look at Hollywood's portrayal of many subjects, not least of all The UK, of which the industry has a fascination not matched by accuracy, sadly.

So zero data? No. First, a probability based on past form. Secondly, by err.. reading many of the comments on this thread. Or at least I thought I had till you pointed out that I hadn't. I'm confused now, because you defend Dumbfuckistan and that makes you clever."

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 04:19 PM

Where is Dumfuckistan, Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 04:24 PM

"Dumfuckistan"

I think it is where opinions are expressed on the basis of zero knowledge to those who have enough information to see how ignorant those opinions are. Musket knows. He is el Presidente!

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 05:06 PM

How about El Jefe? (Heh-Fay) Don't you think that has a nice, authoritative sound to it? (It basically means the same as Der Feuhrer does in German...."The Boss".)

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 05:15 PM

It was the title Franco was known by during his time at the head of the Spanish government after the Civil War. In fact, to be strictly accurate, Der Fuhrer means The Leader, as did Il Duce, the title chosen in Italy by Mussolini [from Latin dux, also cognate with duke]; while El Jefe means The Chief.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Musket
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 10:54 AM

Hello Sailor (and anybody else getting a stiffy about The Iron Lady.)

OK, if Hollywood does show her as senile and demented, it still can't compete with her incompetence as Prime Minister. Although the short clips I have seen don't seem to concentrate on that aspect...

Dumbfuckistan.. To be fairly honest Little Hawk, I am not sure of the GPS coordinates myself but I suspect Sailor Boy might know. After all, I put it in the post as a private smile at him, as he once got a bit stroppy at my mentioning it as a location somewhere in The USA.

Zero knowledge is a wonderful skill. Best used on silly sites such as the BS section of Mudcat. I enjoy joining in from time to time. Sailor Boy is of course a past master at firing off with zero application of the knowledge he sometimes demonstrates he has, which is the same as zero knowledge I suppose. Me? Just the same.

In fact, I suspect that Sailor Boy's original post confirms my point about Hollywood. After all, she is a Brit, so don't give her too much credibility, whereas her economic policies seem to fit with GOP outlook, so best not ridicule them.

Like I said; Hollywood.... Just like Sailor Boy said. Just before he set about to try to make me look small. Sanctimonious prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 12:56 PM

I'm confused. This is now down to name calling, and I am a bit lost. Who is on which side?   

If I can, I try to be on Little Hawk's side, just because don't want to get on the wrong side Shane and Chongo. I'd also like to be on MtheGM's good side, just because he is so literate and all, but he is wary of sycophants. Also, he doesn't acknowledge Shane and Chongo at all.

As to Jack the Sailor, well, he's the man. So, as one of my personal favorite ex-presidents used to say, "Bring it on!"

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 06:58 PM

LOL!

Yeah, wasn't he a pip? I've got a now rare 12-inch action figure of "The Decider" wearing his Air Force uniform. You can pose him in any position the human body is capable of assuming. I plan to sell it for a HUGE sum in another 50 years from now...

I've been looking for a similar action figure of Hillary Clinton. Can't find one for love or money, but if I could, I would pose them "together" for laughs.

Then again, Condoleeza Rice would be kind of cool too.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: ollaimh
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 04:11 PM

little hawk, hitler is the world's best agruement for free public education(which adam smith advocated, by the way). if only they had let him into art school!! if only thay had let him into art school!!! if only they had let him into art school!!!!!

then none of us would have ever heard of him except for the odd painting in vienna fles markets.

as for streep. i love her acting, but i didn't much love her accent in the movie. the movie was much more sympathetic to her than she deserved. she did participate in the great frame up of the innocent protestors murdered by racist british soldiers on bloody sunday,and of course engaged in the fantasy economics that deindustrialized britain and started putting all power in the hands of the parasitic financial barons. and she allowed her forced to torture prisoners. all small scale compared to w bush.

the only great movie i've seen in years was the imaginarium of doctor parnassus. most movies are disapointing

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 04:27 PM

Can't agree more about Thatcher...

And I am very much in favour of free public education for all. There are few things a country can do which could be more beneficial to the future of the society.