BS: George Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 04:03 PM

Your penchant for foul language and personal
attacks is disgusting Greg.
People like you and Elmore ruin the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 03:06 PM

Actually, Elmore, he's amusing in small doses - kind of like a toddler throwing a tantrum.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Elmore
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 03:03 PM

There, there BB, calm down . I can recommend a good shrink, if you'll mail me a SASE with $100 in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Elmore
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 02:56 PM

Greg F.:BB should be ignored, but that's not easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 02:50 PM

Greggie,

"anyone who disagrees with him a "racist scumbag""

NO. Only YOU, since you have proven by your posts that you think somneone who is "Black, and a Democrat" is a "dumb Ni**er".


YOUR words, NOT mine, you lying racist scumbag.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 02:46 PM

Elmore, Beardy's fixation with lynching is only one of a host of his problems which need to be addressed by mental health professionals.

Don't get him started calling anyone who disagrees with him a "racist scumbag" - as if Jews were a "race".

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 01:40 PM

The reason for discovery is that no side knows what is relevant or not. All information must be given to the attorney that is the law and his constitutional right. I cannot stand Zimmerman from what I have read and heard, what occurred should not have occurred had he followed the police order. But .. the law is the law. He will only get grounds for either a new trial or a dismissal if the law isn't followed.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Elmore
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 01:21 PM

When one (like BB) is irrational and argumentative, that's indicative of some deep-seated hostility which, if not treated will worsen. Googled black sheets. Target is having a great sale on black sheets.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 01:06 PM

You are the ones with the rope and the tree....

I just wonder if you will wear black sheets?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Elmore
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 01:03 PM

Lynching. There he goes again. Poor BB.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 12:42 PM

The law matters.

IF you "lynch" Zimmerman, and violate the law, he can be released and get off EVEN IF HE IS FOUND GUILTY.

I do not believe that this is what so many posters here WANT, but it is what they are supporting.

Then they can scream about how unjust and racist the system is, while the real problem is that they were willing to go along with ANYTHING that looked like a way to convict Zimmerman, regardless of it's legality.

THAT is "lynching" - violating the law in order to punish someone YOU think is guilty.

I do not judge whether Z. is guilty, (probably) but regardless, he deserves the same legal protections that ANY accused person should get. Deny him those protections, and you have NO reason to complain when the next accused person is railroaded into jail, or hung.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Elmore
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 12:37 PM

As someone who has been horrified by lynchings and all sorts of murders perpetrated by racists and homophobes in my 72 years on earth, I deeply resent BB's continual use of the word lynching as applied to those of us who disagree with him. Christ, I don't even believe in capital punishment. I don't believe BB is using the word as a figure of speech. I believe he has some sort of fixation with lynching which needs to be addressed by mental health professionals.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 12:30 PM

Those aren't "reasons" Beardy - they're suppositions, BS and smoke.

As usual.

I suppose if he thought he was the Lone Ranger or Spiderman that would be just fine with you as well?

Does reality have no meaning for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 12:21 PM

Bobert, Please go back and read YOUR first post, and my reply. It seems you have never =bothered to read my replies, nor have you addressed the point of this thread. I restate:


Date: 31 May 13 - 12:39 PM

So, Bobert,

YOU think that it is ok to violate the law when YOU think someone is guilty? YOU want to have him get off because that law was violated?

THAT is what this thread is about- NOT his innocence or guilt, but the illegal actions of those, like you , that have decided it does not matter if he gets a fair or legal trial.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 12:14 PM

"for no real reason"


There HAVE been reasons stated- but the lynch mob has ignored them.

. THOUGHT he was acting as a Neighborhood watch member. He saw someone HE thought was acting in a suspicious manner- WHICH HE CALLED IN. He made ( the bad) choice to follow the suspect, thinking he was in the process of committing a crime. Perhaps he yelled for him to stop- DO YOU KNOW OTHERWISE?

Z is now on the ground having his head beaten against the pavement.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO AT THAT POINT??????

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 11:59 AM

So if Zimmerman yelled "stop" and Martin swung at him??? Who picked THAT fight?

In the real world Zimmerman for stalking Martin and then confronting him for no real reason and even though he had been told by the dispatcher not to. In Florida, who knows?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 11:44 AM

"The person picking the fight cannot claim "self defense" if it turns deadly. That is just common sense."

So if Zimmerman yelled "stop" and Martin swung at him??? Who picked THAT fight?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 11:05 AM

>>People do dumb things- that DOES NOT make them "murderers". <<

The person picking the fight cannot claim "self defense" if it turns deadly. That is just common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 10:38 AM

1. Neighborhood watch people are not permitted to carry firearms in most cases, and in ALL cases are subject to the oversight and direction of law enforcement personnel.

Bruce, without "stand your ground" He has no business following "suspected burglers."

"Stand your ground" laws do not apply to someone behaving as Zimmerman did, if you read up on their provisions. That's in all probability why it wasn't tendered he & his lawyers knew it wouldn't fly. Evem WITH "stand your ground" he had no business following "suspected burglars" especially after being told not to do so by law enforcement.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 10:23 AM

Ever hear the words "Neighborhood Watch"? What do you think they do? What do you think HE thought they did? WHAT HAVE THEY DONE IN THE PAST?????

Zimmerman was a one-man "Neighborhood Watch" who had been a bit of a pain to the local police in the past. This is what I read in the St. Pete Times in the weeks after the incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 10:02 AM

Jack,

Ever hear the words "Neighborhood Watch"? What do you think they do? What do you think HE thought they did? WHAT HAVE THEY DONE IN THE PAST?????


He obviously had bad judgement- BUT THAT DOES NOT REMOVE a fear for his life ***IF*** he was having his head pounded into the pavement.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 09:58 AM

"A court employee who retrieved photos and deleted text messages from Trayvon Martin's cellphone has been placed on administrative leave after an attorney testified that prosecutors didn't properly turn over the evidence to the defense, an attorney said Wednesday."

NO FUCKING MENTION of how old the messages and photos were. They could have been deleted the day after the killing, for all we know.


But the resident lynch mob says they were too old to be evidence. Sounds like a 1940's Klan "trial" to me....

"We know he did it- so why bother with following the laws?"

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 09:52 AM

#######################################################################

"Whether he showed good judgement in following the suspect I will not state- but THIS is as likely as any other scenario."

#######################################################################


People do dumb things- that DOES NOT make them "murderers".

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 09:41 AM

Bruce, without "stand your ground" He has no business following "suspected burglers."

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 09:38 AM

Zimmerman did waive a pre-trial hearing on Stand your ground - but has not absolutely waived it so it may come up at trial.

Make your own blicky

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/30/17983728-zimmerman-waives-stand-your-ground-defense-for-now?lite

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 09:33 AM

Bobert,

"Tell me, anyone, how a picture that trevon took of himself a month before is fucking "evidence"???????????????????????????????????????

Or shut the fuck up about withheld so-called "evidence"...

Yes, beardedbruce... You brought this up... Use your wildest imagination on how these pics are relevant to the evidence in this case...
"

My posts:


*IF* Bobert sees no reason to require the prosecution TO FOLLOW THE LAW in this case, I see no difference between him and those who lynch people they are "sure" ( from news reports) have committed some crime.




Date: 04 Jun 13 - 11:10 AM

And what IF a text that was kept from the defense was like this:

"I'm gonna check out *** house, and see what I can take. And if anybody gets in my way, I'll beat the shit outta him."

Sure want to be sure that the defense can't get anything like that- why , the lynching might not go as Bobert wants.



Such a text message MIGHT lead a reasonable jury to believe that Zimmerman was attacked, and that makes a difference, doesn't it?







"He stalked the kid, the kid died, shot with his gun."

OR

"He followed a suspected burglar, was attacked by the suspect, and in fear of his life while having his head pounded into the cement, shot the suspect with his gun"

Whether he showed good judgement in following the suspect I will not state- but THIS is as likely as any other scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 09:29 AM

I thought I'd seen, months back, that Z was running straight self-defence without reliance on local "stand your ground" statute. I have no time to look for it now.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 08:15 AM

Yes, beardedbruce... Use your wildest imagination

Should be no problem, his wildest imagination is the motivating factor behind most, if not all, of his threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 10:25 PM

" Is it no longer the case that Zimmrman has disavowed a "stand your ground" defense? "

I haven't heard that. But how could he? He stalked the kid, the kid died, shot with his gun. None of that is in dispute Without "stand your ground" he is not allowed to put himself into a situation where he confronts people while armed when he sees a threat. Without "Stand Your Ground" all he has is jury tampering and character assassination.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 10:15 PM

Amen Bobert.
Someone please cite the statute that required disclosure of previous and deleted emails in discovery. I am not a lawyer.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 07:30 PM

If the prosecutor is wrong then it would be right to use the past sex life of a rape victim as evidence...

This is all bullshit...

Tell me, anyone, how a picture that trevon took of himself a month before is fucking "evidence"???????????????????????????????????????

Or shut the fuck up about withheld so-called "evidence"...

Yes, beardedbruce... You brought this up... Use your wildest imagination on how these pics are relevant to the evidence in this case...

You can't and this is all 100% USDA Choice bullshit that allows the murder victim to become the bad guy...

This is a sick thread and a sick legal system that is tilted toward the rights of the murderer while trampling the rights of the murdered...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 07:29 PM

Hello? Is it no longer the case that Zimmrman has disavowed a "stand your ground" defence?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:34 PM

The DELETED messages on TRAVON's cell phone could not have been part of ZIMMERMAN's thought process at the time.

Since ZIMMERMAN chose to stalk the boy, the claim of self-defense is dubious. If not for the "Stand your ground" law, I think Zimmerman would have a near impossible case. As it is, if issues of character are introduced, won't Zimmerman and his wife have to stand up and explain why they lied at their bail hearing?

I have no problem with the prosecutors deciding that the gun and weed pictures were not evidence in Zimmerman's defense. Since the prosecutors had no intent to use the pictures they were nothing buts irrelevant personal information.


Who decides which evidence is exculpatory? IMHO certainly NOT the tech who ran Norton utilities on the kid's cellphone. He certainly did deserve to be fired for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:26 PM

Zimerman's defense is based on self defense that is that he believed his life to be in danger and acted in self-defense. The only relevant evidence for that is proof of what Travon did THAT NIGHT that ZIMMERMAN PERSONALLY WITNESSED. As someone else said,

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:07 PM

Having said all that, I very much fear that the fix is already in!

Justice for a black teenager is still far from a certainty anywhere in the US, but especially in the South.

A Hispanic like Zimmerman would have received short shrift himself, had his victim not been black, rendering him a temporary white man.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 05:59 PM

""Too bad Martin isn't here to give his version of the events.""

It is precisely because he is not, that the trial must be conducted with the utmost rigour and strictly by the book, rather than being turned into the usual three ring circus of sleazy attempts to sway the Jury with inadmissible evidence and innuendo.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 05:52 PM

""And I have not read anything you have posted that contributes to the thread.""

I have long suspected that you only read the posts of people you think you might browbeat into submission.

You've picked a wrong'un with Bobz. He doesn't browbeat worth a damn.

I agree with you that the evidence must be passed on under current rules. Therefore the prosecutors are wrong.

But, the rule should be what Bobert says, the evidence passed to the judge, who will decide, and pass it on if, and only if, admissible.

That is not lynch law, but recognition that in the US an honest lawyer is likely to be an oxymoron.

Not much better in the UK, among defence lawyers!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 02:10 PM

bb - I am saying it is possible this has all come about because White has an axe to grind so went public with some info. Is his take on the situation accurate? I do not know, but all of this started with his revelation about a situation that may turn out to be much ado about nothing.

White claims ths was not fueled by animosity, that could be true, could be false. Again, I don't know and neither do any of the rest of us here.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 01:29 PM

I would like to be in the courtroom when they attempt to impanel an 'impartial' jury. I halfway expect Zimmerman to get off, no matter what the 'truth' is, because he could not GET a 'fair' trial.
At worst, I predict a verdict of 'involuntary manslaughter' and a year or two sentence.

No one but Zimmerman knows exactly what happened that night, but *I* know that if a large guy in plain clothes and followed ME around and tried to 'confront' me...even when I tried to avoid him.. *I* would resist his advances and might even, if I could, bang HIS head on the ground if he wouldn't leave me alone! I don't think that would give him the right to shoot me 'in self-defense'.....and all this I believe no matter what is deemed as 'evidence' but some judge. There IS a difference between 'data' and 'relevant evidence', and I hope both judge & jury realize this.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 01:18 PM

"I think Zimmerman is clearly resposible for Martin's death but he may not be guilty of a crime."

Agreed.


From OP:


"Former prosecutor Wesley White said he was ethically obligated to reveal that Fourth Judicial Circuit Information Technology Director Ben Kruidbos retrieved the data that weren't turned over.

Kruidbos was placed on leave shortly after White testified during a hearing in George Zimmerman's second-degree murder case on Tuesday. White said Kruidbos was interviewed by state attorney investigators twice before the action was taken.

White said he wasn't surprised of possible evidence violations by Zimmerman prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda.

"I was saddened by it, but I'm not surprised," he said.

White first learned about the evidence through Kruidbos more than a month ago, he said.
...
White led the Nassau County state attorney's office before resigning in December, citing differences of opinion with Corey. He is now in private practice."

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 01:13 PM

From th OP:

" prosecutors didn't properly turn over the evidence to the defense,"

This is a quote by "Former prosecutor Wesley White" who felt the need to say that his disclosure to the defense isn't sparked by any animosity toward his former employer.

If says there is no animosity then it must be true, right? It could be true, I don't know.

Was this evidence that should have been turned over? I don't know, a Judge will decide that.

I must say that I tend to agree with Bobert until just shy of the end. I think Zimmerman is clearly resposible for Martin's death but he may not be guilty of a crime. The Stand Your Ground law means that if Martin did turn on Zimmerman and make him feel threatened for his safety then Zimmerman could be in the right legally. I believe Martin would have to have started the actual altercation for that to be true but don't remember for sure how the law reads on that. It is a terrible law but there it is.

Too bad Martin isn't here to give his version of the events.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 12:04 PM

""Fair trial" and "according to the law" are not the same things."

It is possible for a trial to be according to the law, and NOT fair, but I do not see how a trial could be fair and NOT according to the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 11:57 AM

"Fair trial" and "according to the law" are not the same things.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 11:44 AM

From th OP:

" prosecutors didn't properly turn over the evidence to the defense,"

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 11:36 AM

(crosspostd)

"Isn't justice what all of us want???"


If by justice you mean that people get fair trials according to the law, I agree.

If by justice you mean that the people YOU have decided are guilty have their rights reduced, and are NOT given the benefit of a fair trail, but are punished based on news reports, I do not agree.


He may or may not have a valid defense ( I suspect not) but he deserves a FAIR TRIAL, with the prosecution playing ACCORDING to the LAW.

Otherwise, it is a lynching.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 11:35 AM

Where did you come up with bit of mythology, bruce???

I want everyone to not only follow the law but ***RESPECT*** it as, as well... Zimmerman's attorney is not respecting the law here any more than Johnny Cochran did in the O.J. trial...

Garbage in = garbage out...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 11:32 AM

Oh, and for the record??? Yes, based on what evidence has been made public I believe that Zimmerman is guilty of murder...

He was told by the police to stay in his car... He didn't...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 11:31 AM

*IF* Bobert sees no reason to require the prosecution TO FOLLOW THE LAW in this case, I see no difference between him and those who lynch people they are "sure" ( from news reports) have committed some crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 11:30 AM

I have no problems with having a trial... I just don't want it to be "O.J.'d" where there is no, ahhhhh, justice...

Isn't justice what all of us want???

Is justice too much to ask...

I mean, our country isn't that far removed from the Greensboro Massacre when the Klan gunned down 5 unarmed peaceful protestors and got away with it... That was in 1979 and most of us here were around then...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 11:28 AM

Greggie,

And I have not read anything you have posted that contributes to the thread.